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China Plans To Stop Harvesting Organs From Executed Prisoners
cold fjord writes "The People's Republic of China continues its long march toward liberalization with two steps forward (And one+ step back?). The BBC reports, 'A senior Chinese official has said the country will phase out the practice of taking organs from executed prisoners from November. Huang Jiefu said China would now rely on using organs from voluntary donors under a new national donation system. Prisoners used to account for two-thirds of transplant organs, based on previous estimates from state media. For years, China denied that it used organs from executed prisoners, but admitted it a few years ago... Human rights groups estimate that China executes thousands of prisoners a year, but correspondents say that the official figures remain a state secret.'"
I plan to stop drawing water from my well, once it runs dry.
I have a suspicion that the "voluntary donor program" means "we're going to shoot you anyway, but we won't charge your family for the bullet if you volunteer to let us harvest your organs."
Sorry but morales aside. Why not harvest organs like this that can't be harvested from volunteers (without them dying). Go China.
Flame on
That is an excellent idea. On top of that, I'd harvest a kidney from everyone with a life sentence or on death row.
If these prisoners were serial killers, rapists, murderers and other assorted bad guys, then I fully support using their organs to save lives. I find it poetic justice and a very fitting end for the life of a person who (possibly) killed so many others.
If these prisoners are political prisoners sentenced to death because they were at Tiannamen Square or oppose communism, then I welcome the end of such barbaric policies.
sudo make me a sandwich
So they now first let the prisoners sign a document that they donate the organs?
"There are two main methods for determining voluntary consent: "opt in" (only those who have given explicit consent are donors) and "opt out" (anyone who has not refused is a donor). Opt-out legislative systems dramatically increase effective rates of consent for donation. For example, Germany, which uses an opt-in system, has an organ donation consent rate of 12% among its population, while Austria, a country with a very similar culture and economic development, but which uses an opt-out system, has a consent rate of 99.98%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_donation
How is an opt-out system for prisoners any different from the general populace?
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Not good: China Takes Aim at Western Ideas
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I was surprised to learn that where I live, everyone is automatically considered an organ donor. The doctors can takes organs from my body when I die, even if my family object. If you object, you have to sign an opt-out.
Great system actually. The only way to avoid the horror stories of people being kidnapped for organs or, worse, the poor selling their organs, is to ensure there are enough donated organs available. A lot of people don't care about losing their organs after death, but requiring people to opt-in means that most just don't bother.
There were just two problems with China's policy. One is that the organs were given to the ruling class, rather than being distributed on a basis of need. The other is that it encourages judgements and policies which increase the number of people sentenced to death.
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Feel conflicted.
1. Using utilitarian logic this is a loss. Now more people die or suffer reduced quality of life.
2. Using common sense logic this is a gain. Organs are so valuable that there are immoral incentives at work.
I think you cannot call this a clear cut human rights issue since there are two violations possible from contradictory perspectives.
from the article::
"Human rights groups estimate that China executes thousands of prisoners a year, but correspondents say that the official figures remain a state secret."
non-Google translation:
"Nobody knows -- not even the Chinese government -- how many prisoners are executed each year...
3D printing solved the human replacement organ thing weeks ago. Space, here we come!
The US Govt is going to pick this up, just in time for the elections.
I'm sure the Prison Corporations will be in favor; as well as all the greedy politicians.
It's not like it's legal, or anything, but Really; when has that stopped them from doing something?
Welcome to the New World Order; where you ARE Fries with that.
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
I would rather they stop excecuting people altogether. It is a tad medieval.
I wonder if recipients know where the organs are coming from. In my experience I'd expect them to be a bit wary about the source of those organs, what with the way they worry about bad luck, karma and all that.
are they actually planning to stop harvesting or are they just saying this to return to their previous state of denial? perhaps they devised a scheme to harvest organs covertly. if the bodies of the executed start(?) being cremated then it's plausible deniability.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
How would you like to earn money while you're inside, doing
absolutely nothing?
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"One is that the organs were given to the ruling class"
That's very doubtful due to this pesky HLA thingy. The probability that 1000 death row prisoner HLA every year correspond to somebody of the "ruling class" is slim, unless you want to add a conspiracy theory that they chose the prisoner to be executed by their HLA. More likely only those who could have enough money for an operation would get the organ.
...they just stopped executing people? Wouldn't that have a similar outcome?
The local laws here require approval from three doctors with no connection to the recipient, the "donor" and who will have no role in the transplant operations. (In urgent cases, two doctors is enough.) A report has to be made, saying how death was established and that has to be kept on file for ten years.
I think that's as much as one can expect be done to safeguard against such corruption.
Also, the hospitals here are government funded, even the "private" ones, so there's more transparency and accountability than you'd get in countries with privatised systems, so I'm not worried about corruption, be it covert or systematic.
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Are you seriously wondering why they are stopping?
You seem to be laboring under the mistaken belief that the death penalty is the same there as it is here. In China, they routinely execute political dissidents, politically-active members of disfavored minority groups, thieves, embezzlers, etc. Any trial that occurs is rather perfunctory. Yes, there are your typical death-row murderers and rapists too, but the high-volume organ supply comes from political prisoners, as they are easier to "warehouse" due to being less violent. They have their blood tested after arrest, and then are executed when a customer requires an organ.
Am I the only one who though of the Lexx after reading this?
"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live." - Mark Twain, "Taming the Bicycle"
All you need is better spin and propaganda.
Are we supposed to believe they're just going to stop doing this completely?
Or will they just come up with a new way to spin it -- "Comrade Yang, in contrition for his terrible crime of jaywalking has volunteered to be euthenized and have his organs harvested. He hopes the glorious People's Republic will accept his noble sacrifice as atonement for his transgressions." Forcing someone to sign the paperwork probably isn't that tough when you can get away with anything in secret and threaten people's families.
And then they'll be right back where they are now, but with better PR.
I'd like to think China is going to halt the practice. But in reality, it's probably quite lucrative, and power once held is seldom given up.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Oh.
I'm not a scientist or an engineer.
No organ transplants for me in your world.
(Health or lifestyle is already taken into account. Mentally handicapped people get kidney transplants ahead of heavy drinkers. That's the case in Ireland at least. I don't know exactly how the scoring system is devised.)
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must be overjoyed. Way to go! Let's waste even the single good thing that can come from those scheduled for execution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van
I really thought the Chinese would usher in the rise of the organleggers
The Guardian (not exactly a sensational tabloid) had an article about this not too long ago. It included an extensive interview with a doctor that participated.
>> China executes thousands of prisoners a year
>> Prisoners used to account for two-thirds of transplant organs
Based on the math, organs are donated by volunteers five-hundreds of times per year. I think this low voluntary number speaks more to the social problems in China.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
I wouldn't be surprised if the average executed chinese prisoner has higher than normal amounts of lead, cadmium, benzene, lead, etc.
In fact, some organs may come with a bullet fragment or two ;-) since that is how they execute most people there.
Besides, your body will just want another organ after an hour...
Actually "karma" means "action" or deed", and the core concept is that the entire cause-and-effect cycle is a single inherently inseparable thing, and when you "create" a cause, you are simultaneously creating all of it's effects. It's somewhat analogous to the concept "you reap what you sow". But in it's originating culture it's a concept fundamental enough to have its own dedicated word. And a nice short one at that - those tend to be culturally important.
The whole religious "spiritual economy", "you deserve what you get and/or are paying in advance for something great" thing is a cultural thing that grew up around that. I suspect that since for many cases "what goes around comes around" is closely analogous it becomes a convenient place for corrupt priests to hang the old "pie in the sky when you die" trick.
Your own post espouses the concept - it's not the organ harvesting itself that is the problem, in fact that part seems rather benign to me - get as much good as possible out of this evil. The problem is the the potential consequences that can grow out of it, the perverse incentives it puts in place. "Crime is dropping and we have a shortage of organs? Well let's just retroactively lower the bar a bit as to what constitutes a capital offense, problem solved." That's not necessarily how things would go down, but if you build the system and it is eventually corrupted then the horrors it perpetrates will be in part your doing. Your karma. The responsible being tries to look at least a few steps ahead and create consequences whose net balance is as desirable as possible (by their personal standards) - to create good karma.
Anyway, as a fellow SF fan I imagine you have a taste for the long vision and thought I'd do my part to share a source of real wisdom I've encountered. Those crazy old Eastern mystics and philosophers were actually pretty on the ball: they managed to take a deeply empowering perspective on our relationship with the cosmos and refine it into a "religion" to guide and shape individuals and society in productive ways, without ever invoking any sort of Authority beyond the individual. Even their rules for Acolytes are a very practical affair: "doing these things will disrupt your training, don't ask the Master to guide you if you're unwilling to follow". Don't let the New Age folks scare you off, every movement has it's groupies. And as groupies go the New Agers tend to be among the most friendly, tolerant, and generous folks you could hope to meet, which I think speaks well of the core philosophy.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
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Getting people to volunteer as organ donors, or even as blood donors, is a big problem in China. Volunteerism is not part of their culture, and giving up part of your body is considered a desecration. Even in America, Asian-Americans, and Chinese in particular, donate organs, and donate blood, at very low rates.
China has a very low rate of organ donation, but their demand for organs is not commensurately low. However, they also have unusually short waiting times -- a paradox that gives testament to the scale of organ sourcing that is likely going on.
Don't be the idiot that says this is not relevant, as that is disrespectful of the violations of human rights that have been happening there since the 1950's. Also, it demonstrates a lack of basic research.
The CCP would bury this crime and the west is possesed by materialism, to the degree that Human Rights, are fictional.
Take non-violent action.
Greekgeek.
that taking organs from an executed person, possibly to save the lives of other people, is the terrible thing here, not the habit of executing people?
Interesting take on ethics.
In my point of view, every body of a dead human should be a possible donor (if at all, with an opt-out scheme). In my point of view, executing criminals is wrong and barbaric.
It's better to get them from from live prisoners instead.
big 10" will be filled before then
Instead, they will harvest the organs of prisoners still alive.