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This Satellite Could Be Beaming Solar Power Down From Space By 2025

Daniel_Stuckey writes "A NASA veteran, aerospace entrepreneur, and space-based solar power (SBSP) expert, [John] Mankins designed the world's first practical orbital solar plant. It's called the Solar Power Satellite via Arbitrarily Large PHased Array, or SPS-ALPHA for short. If all goes to plan, it could be launched as early as 2025, which is sooner than it sounds when it comes to space-based solar power timelines. Scientists have been aware of the edge the "space-down" approach holds over terrestrial panels for decades. An orbiting plant would be unaffected by weather, atmospheric filtering of light, and the sun's inconvenient habit of setting every evening. SBSP also has the potential to dramatically increase the availability of renewable energy."

245 comments

  1. Could? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only if with could you mean won't ...

    1. Re:Could? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if with could you mean won't ...

      All we need is a big, long extension cord and it'll work great. After 50 years it might even generate as much energy as was used to put it in orbit!

  2. My god, what has science wrought??? by kruach+aum · · Score: 5, Funny

    A satellite directly beaming solar power down from space? We've created... the moon.

    1. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It basically works like Ion Canon and it will accelerate global warming and destroy the receiver station.

    2. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 4, Funny

      The moon's too lossy, and keeps having its time of the month where it's completely useless. For getting solar power beamed down from space, I'd propose using ... the sun!

      I'm curious - how much taxpayer funding has this received? Is this just another one of the "ride the replace-fossil-fuel-usage bandwagon" schemes?

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    3. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ion Canon

      I think you mean "ion cannon" unless you're talking about the definitive collection of published works on ions.

      An ion cannon works by projecting a beam of charged particles, either atoms or molecules, not a beam of microwave energy.

      And, no, it's not going to destroy the ground station.

      --
      That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    4. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm curious - how much taxpayer funding has this received?

      Less than a day's worth of military funding, I'm sure. And this is not an expenditure, it's an investment.

    5. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Arancaytar · · Score: 3, Funny

      Moon, Death Star, whichever.

    6. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by modernbob · · Score: 1

      Yeah we could have 50 of theses for the price of the iraq war.

    7. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Dereck1701 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Less than a day's worth"

      You''re being WAY to generous, the US military spending for 2012, ignoring all of side costs (possibly as high as $500 Billion) is roughly $900 Billion dollars. Broken down to a "By Day" cost it is $2.46 Billion per day, with that kind of money you could probably finish development and put a significant amount of this concepts hardware into orbit. If any taxpayer money was used on this study it would probably be measured in seconds of military spending (~$28,500 per second) at most.

    8. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe 10 minutes of social programs funding.

      You do realize NASA's annual funding is $18 billion and social programs at the federal level $2,300 billion. The entire NASA budget would fit neatly into 3 days of welfare. (We won't even be cruel and throw in state and local which pretty much doubles it. (Military btw is $600 billion annually)

    9. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      and keeps having its time of the month where it's completely useless

      Huh, just like a girlfriend!

    10. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't help but notice that you're comparing with social programs, and the DoD, which is grossly overfunded, is thrown in as an after thought. Goes to show why the US is in such trouble. Wellfare programs are essential, but get relatively little money. But, the DoD, gets a crap load of money, with little or no benefit for the funds.

      What's more, a huge number of the people on welfare are there because we signed all those free trade agreements and shipped the decent paying jobs overseas. All while making it harder and harder for employees to organize, and slashing taxes that the rich pay.

    11. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by number6x · · Score: 4, Informative

      The $600 Billion that you quote does not include all military spending. quite a bit of the $2.3T you list for social spending includes military pensions, the GI Bill, and the VA hospitals:

      • Government Pensions (including Military pensions) $1.0 trillion
      • Government Health Care (including VA Hospitals) + $1.2 trillion
      • Government Education (including GI Bill) + $0.9 trillion
      • National Defense + $0.9 trillion
      • Government Welfare + $0.6 trillion
      • All Other Spending + $1.6 trillion
      • Total Government Spending $6.2 trillion

      That is about $1.1 trillion more than we took in in taxes. The way our 'National Defense' spending is skewed towards big contractors and away from the soldiers, I would probably guess that there are quite a few veterans in the 'Government Welfare' figure as well.

      The 'All Other Spending' includes foreign 'Military Aid'. The majority of which goes to Israel, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Egypt to help pay for their military budgets. Total Foreign Aid comes to about less than 1% of budget. About $14 billion in foreign military aid, $23 billion in foreign humanitarian and developmental aid and $18 billion in 'other' foreign aid.

      So there is military spending that is outside the pentagon's budget. A lot of it, for soldiers and veterans, gets included in the social spending.

    12. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      You conflate welfare with social programs. Social security, legally defined as a welfare program, also counts, and is far and away the biggest share of this.

      Good luck convincing any politician to reduce social security payments to everyone by a dollar a month to fund this.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    13. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Sun also beams down energy to earth too!

    14. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by TeknoHog · · Score: 2

      Ion Canon

      I think you mean "ion cannon" unless you're talking about the definitive collection of published works on ions.

      Perhaps the GP meant Canon Ion.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    15. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      We could be building up and employing people but it wont happen. We could be doing the same with the oceans and modernizing our city infrastructures. But it wont happen.

    16. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Yeah we could have 50 of theses for the price of the iraq war.

      It is a logical fallacy to attempt to justify an expenditure by pointing to something else even stupider. This project should be funded if, and only if, it is a good idea, not because it is merely less stupid than something else.

    17. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      And this is not an expenditure, it's an investment.

      Nope. If tax dollars are being spent, it is an expenditure. If it was an investment, it would be funded by private investors risking their own money.

    18. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by ranton · · Score: 1

      You do realize NASA's annual funding is $18 billion and social programs at the federal level $2,300 billion. .... (Military btw is $600 billion annually)

      Goes to show why the US is in such trouble. Wellfare programs are essential, but get relatively little money. But, the DoD, gets a crap load of money, with little or no benefit for the funds.

      While I agree that our military is overfunded, you just said that social programs (which account for 45% of the federal budget) get relatively little money. Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security alone dwarf defense spending. You can't be taken seriously if you spout such false statements even if you have a good point to make.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    19. Re: My god, what has science wrought??? by kcornia · · Score: 2

      How the hell is social security "welfare" when I pay the max into it every year?

      You want to make the case for modifying it then go ahead, but these constant attempts to redefine it are garbage.

      Is the mortgage interest deduction included in your 2.3 trillion? IMO that's much more of a welfare program than social security, so lets cut that first ok?

      I say that knowing I'll lose close to 10k per year (net).

    20. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      The moon's too lossy, and keeps having its time of the month where it's completely useless. For getting solar power beamed down from space, I'd propose using ... the sun!

      I'm curious - how much taxpayer funding has this received? Is this just another one of the "ride the replace-fossil-fuel-usage bandwagon" schemes?

      I suspect someone thought there might be a chance that this could be used to beam down power to overseas armies in the field at night or during cloudy weather when you don't have solar power.

      I also suspect they forgot to take into account that you need to build a large, hard to defend receiver array on the ground in order to harvest the dilute microwave beam.

    21. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      I didn't see a cost estimate in the article. Lot of handwaving about this will be cheaper than what was proposed in the past, but no numbers because, despite the fact they're calling it a design, there's no design.

    22. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by lessthan · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he meant Ion Cannon.

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    23. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Allowing more free international trade and reducing taxes on the rich are normal moves to allow the health of the economy to improve in the long-run.

      Welfare is important and is a humanitarian way of dealing with sudden changes in the demands of various skills that follow from economic development. However, this is not the great evil others would have you believe.

    24. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by master5o1 · · Score: 2

      You clearly don't understand how funding grunts work...

      --
      signature is pants
    25. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by master5o1 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was going to correct grunts, but it became slightly funnier in my head when I realised the error.

      --
      signature is pants
    26. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But welfare is severely harder to funnel into your pals via monstruous contracts.

      Also it lacks the ability to sweep under the rug(national security ,oops) any trouble that might rise.

    27. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Mankins worked on some of this earlier when he was at NASA; I seem to recall he was even paid to write up a study. I expect it would be easy enough to find out at least ballpark figure. Or you could ask him, or visit the website. A start:

      http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/716070main_Mankins_2011_PhI_SPS_Alpha.pdf

      The NASA grant was NNX11AR34G; I don't know offhand how one would find out how much that cost taxpayers.

      A related bit, from http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/p/nasa_budget_cost.htm

      "A 2002 study by Professor H.R. Hertzfeld of George Washington University showed there is a large return to the companies work with NASA on its research contracts. These companies are able to commercialize the products developed and market them. The 15 companies studied received $1.5 billion in benefits from a NASA R&D investment of $64 million."

      The link for the 2002 study is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14983842
      I didn't look to see how one would get the full report. Further, this relates just to life sciences tech transfer.

      From the same site,

      "A report by the Space Foundation estimated that NASA contributed $180 billion to the economy in 2005. More than 60% of this came from commercial goods and services created by companies related from space techonology. This means that each dollar of NASA spending creates $10 of benefit in the economy. NASA spending created the satellite communications which allows not only radio and television, but also telemedicine, GPS navigation, weather forecasts, and defense."

      The link given goes here, to a press release (and not to the mentioned one from the Space Foundation),

      http://useconomy.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=useconomy&cdn=newsissues&tm=544&f=10&su=p284.13.342.ip_p504.6.342.ip_&tt=11&bt=6&bts=6&zu=http%3A//www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/sep/HQ_07193_Griffin_lecture.html

      For the pdf of Griffin's speech,

      http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/189537main_mg_space_economy_20070917.pdf

      or for text-only, http://useconomy.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=useconomy&cdn=newsissues&tm=544&f=10&su=p284.13.342.ip_p504.6.342.ip_&tt=11&bt=6&bts=6&zu=http%3A//www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/sep/HQ_07193_Griffin_lecture.html

      One may object that Griffin as then-head of NASA was tooting his own horn but there's no automatic reason to doubt the figures or conclusions - there are plenty of people who spend time looking for errors and outright lies, especially from NASA.

    28. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      funding grunts. lol.

      I am sure you meant it but I will imagine you didn't because its funnier.

      Also grunts don't get funding....they get SFA actually....

    29. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Informative

      Learn English, what you are talking about is a particular type of investment, specifically private financial investments that have a monetary return. Governments do that all the time and have massive traditional investment portfolios, but they also make "investments" in infrastructure and such where the returns are meaused by how much they benifit society. For instance the government may choose to invest in a (say) new bridge, the ROI will be measured in reduced travel times and transport costs, the ROI cannot be measured in dollars because there is no such profit to be had. A private bridge would charge a toll to make money and therefore is of less benifit to the community since the toll redirects the bulk of the transport cost savings into the bridge owners pocket. You see the difference? - Government invests in society, private enterprise profits from society, both methods can be implemented with varying degrees of success depending on circumstance, neither group has a monopoly on inefficentcy.

      IMHO, the single biggest problem in the US is that there are way too many people like you who reduce ALL government activity to a single simple minded complaint; "Waaaa.....they're spending my money...Waaaaa!"

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    30. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      > Less than a day's worth of military funding, I'm sure.

      Very good point. One should always seek to optimise the largest wastes, and the military is an enormous sink-hole. Except if you're one of the lucky industrial parts of the military industrial complex, that is, in which case, it's Christmas every day!

      However, that doesn't mean one should throw money willy0nilly at any fancy-pants futuristic scheme that follows the current fashion, as ...

      > And this is not an expenditure, it's an investment.

      Only if it pays off. What are your estimates as to the probability this will be both workable, and cost-effective?

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    31. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      What does "received $1.5 billion in benefits" *mean*?

      It doesn't sound like profit to me, as there's a better word for that, namely "profit". And that's the thing I think RoI should be calculated from (as do economists, it's rare that I agree with them on anything).

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    32. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      An investment is an investment whether or not it pays off. Just ask those folks whose homes are worth less than they paid for them, or those who bought Facebook stock the first day (although if they held on they're breaking even).

      If nothing else, this is investing in human knowledge.

    33. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      IMHO, the single biggest problem in the US is that there are way too many people like you who reduce ALL government activity to a single simple minded complaint; "Waaaa.....they're spending my money...Waaaaa!"

      Indeed. Folks like him follow America's #1 religion, the worship of money.

    34. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd propose using ... the sun!

      Except that there is no light or heat from the Sun when you are in orbit or in deep space. They are created within the atmosphere/ionosphere.

    35. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      It's not just Veterans that might be relying on Social Welfare money to survive. I know a number of currently enlisted folks and some of them are definitely getting welfare assistance.

      I worked as a contractor for a couple years and I can personally attest to the outlandish spending there. My employer was being paid $154K a year when I started for the position I filled. My pay was $60K. Typically an employee might cost an employer 200% of the employee's paycheck. Those costs usually come from equipment, work space, utilities, pay roll taxes and such. In my case I am pretty confident that their cost was significantly less than that. They did the payroll taxes, half of the health insurance, and maybe a grand of training a year. The goverment supplied everything else.

    36. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by Keith+Henson · · Score: 1

      "should be funded if, and only if, it is a good idea"

      If power satellites are a good idea, they should:

      Produce power for half the price of coal. That cheap enough (2 cents per kWh) to make carbon neutral synthetic gasoline for $1-2 per gallon.

      Do this while making huge profits. The profits are needed so the power satellite fleet can grow by two TW/year That allows ending human dependence on fossil fuels that will run out (or at least get very expensive) and ending the addition of more CO2 to the atmosphere in a bit over two decades.

      Not cause too much of an environmental impact.

      Require a transportation investment that isn't any larger than other energy projects. Say $60 B.

      Thanks to a suggestion by Steve Nixon in April, it looks like a project of that scale which uses Skylon and laser propulsion can get the cost of lifting parts to GEO down to where power satellites will meet all of the above points except possibly the environmental impact. The model has the 10 year ROI at 500%.

      The environmental problem is what dumping from 12 to 240 million tons per year of water into the upper atmosphere near the equator will do to the ozone layer.

      --
      End MGM. Get prospective parents of boys to Google: Men do complain
    37. Re:My god, what has science wrought??? by kermidge · · Score: 1

      "What does "received $1.5 billion in benefits" *mean*?"

      I dunno, man. Guess one would have to read the report. In general terms, I take it to mean that the several companies licensed royalty-free NASA patents and used them in the development and sale of devices which they then sold to the medical industry in which case the amount for benefit given might be the total sales up to near the date of the speech or report. I suppose a bit of digging might turn up some answers. The writer on the original site, milk-tongue or no, seemed to be not wholly comfortable with the English language.

      Ah, economists. Yeas, those wonderfully scholarly clowns, with their boatloads of data, stage-fulls of shiny charts, and encyclopedias of arcane formulae. Yet, they do try to describe the human condition, and the basics within a defined arena are useful. John Stuart Mill is essential reading; the rest, not too many rise to his level (I'll take a hit on that, and maybe learn something; I never studied econ, so really don't know much about it. I was halfway through Samuelson when my brain barfed.) To the extent they try to model reality, good (just like the climate people or fluid dynamics.) For the rest.... even Laffer repudiated his curve, or the use made of it.

      If there ever is a Hari Seldon, he will start with econ, which is after all the attempt to describe how we singly and collectively assign value to things and interact on that assigned value in our lives - economics writ large is at the heart of all our actions and interactions. If the psychologists ever pull their thumb out they will pay attention to it.

      Stephen (or Steven?) Possony (and thanks to Jerry Pournelle for mentioning it on his GEnie RT back when) did a delightful, constructive analysis of the Pikeman's Dilemma based off standard econ.

      A quick and instructive read is John Kenneth Galbraith's "Money: Whence It Came, Where It Went" to get a useful glimpse.

      In the main, tho, I agree with you. Most of the yahoos that show up on the talking-head shows I listen to with maybe a quarter ear. Too many seem to be pushing an agenda, but then, commercial TV in particular must pander to lowest-common-denominator, cheap controversy, sound-bite pabulum, and short attention spans.

      Over the past forty years every reputable study I've seen shows a general return on space investment, starting with NASA, of triple to ten-fold. Individual projects may not pan out but the industry itself is a gold mine.

  3. It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    the microwave downlink gets misaligned and burns down the city block next to the ground station.

    1. Re:It's all good until by Zumbs · · Score: 2

      the microwave downlink gets misaligned and burns down the city block next to the ground station.

      TFA seems to imply that they considered the issue of using lasers and shot it down with the words:

      High frequency blasts can damage retinas, destroy electronics, and potentially ignite fires or explosions. “Think about the Death Star,” he warned. The risk factor outweighs the seductive, compact grace offered by lasers.

      As you note, however, microwaves are not entirely safe either. On the other hand, if the intensity is low enough it should be safe, which is what is being discussed:

      Since Mankins is dead-set on low-intensity microwave transmitters, the receiver on Earth will be large—about 6 to 8 km in diameter, positioned 5 to 10 meters above the ground.

      The obvious question is if the beams can be focused, and used as a weapon, it could provide a no-warning and very destructive attack anywhere in the world. It seems to be what Mankins is trying to avoid, and I tend to agree that (aside from cost) we really, really need to make sure that the power sources of the future are not just being used to cloak the real objective: Making powerful weapons. Example: Nuclear power.

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    2. Re:It's all good until by Spottywot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It seems like the fear of weaponisation is whats kept this sort of thing from being explored more fully, up till now of course, but I think that there are logical arguments that prevent this from being an issue. For instance if country 1 put up enough of these things they would be able to supply a large proportion if not all of their countries energy needs creating a significant economic advantage for country 1. Said country then decides to point one elsewhere to burn down a city or military installation in country 2 therefore breaking the International space treaty and probably many others, and the international community forces country 1 to dissasemble their SPS-alpha capability, causing them severe economic dissadvatage.

      TLDR using these as weapons makes no economic sense.

      --
      In a cybernetic fit of rage she pissed off to another age...
    3. Re:It's all good until by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The problem is: How do you prove that it was an intentional event, as opposed to a malfunctioning of the controls?

      Or what if one country hacks into another country's control system and uses one of their satellites as weapon? If the satellite happens to be on the other hemisphere (so there's no danger of accidentally hitting the own country), they don't even need to have control. Just DoS the other country's control, and have the out-of-control satellite burn populated areas at random.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    4. Re: It's all good until by Nutria · · Score: 0

      the microwave downlink gets misaligned and burns down the city block next to the ground station.

      10 years ago, the first comment to an article such as this would have been about robots with Messiah complexes, and the second would have welcome our new Robot Prophet Overlords, IN SPACE!!

      The science fiction nerd quotient of /. has tumbled.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    5. Re: It's all good until by tmosley · · Score: 1

      No, I think it would have been the same comment ten years ago, as that is a reference to the solar power station you can build in SimCity.

    6. Re:It's all good until by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Gee, don't you think the designers would plan for something like ground control failure?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    7. Re:It's all good until by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      The problem is: How do you prove that it was an intentional event, as opposed to a malfunctioning of the controls?

      The same way it's done when a malfunction causes a nuke to be fired at another nation?

      Or what if one country hacks into another country's control system and uses one of their satellites as weapon? If the satellite happens to be on the other hemisphere (so there's no danger of accidentally hitting the own country), they don't even need to have control. Just DoS the other country's control, and have the out-of-control satellite burn populated areas at random.

      It's a risk, and so is pretty much everything. Nuclear plans, research facilities handling hazardous biological materials. One would hope these satellites would have a few fail safe mechanisms built in to them:

      1) Suspend the beam if contact with control is lost. They'd be pretty amateurish if they designed this so a DoS could allow people to use it as a weapon.
      2) Isolated systems to confirm the location of the beam's target, and to shut down necessary systems if the beam is headed for unrecognised locations.
      3) Require significant delays in re-activating beam when the satellite has been moved or reoriented.
      4) Some kind of feedback from the surface, so if the beam is directed anywhere but a proper land station it will be cut off.
      5) Emergency cut off that prevents the beam from being reactivated for x amount of time.

      Full disclosure: I'm neither a space energy beam designer or a layer.

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    8. Re:It's all good until by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure I entirely follow your logic or agree with your assumptions/conclusion.

      You're surmising it doesn't make economic sense to use these as weapons simply because you've assumed the international community will be able to dictate that the offender dismantle the entire fleet of satellites?

      Let's back up a bit. Not that it's entirely clear in your portrayal, but if country 1 is the only country with these things... and a lot of these things... I don't think it would be an "oops" moment after the attack. I think it would be a "...this Death Star is FULLY OPERATIONAL" moment.

      This wouldn't be dampened by MAD unless many countries had similar weaponized satellites in similar quantities. This also wouldn't have the stigma of fallout, radiation or other lingering effects. It may also likely be able to be scaled to knock out someone walking to work or entire cities. It would make as much as economic sense as the ability to control masses ever has.

      At least one science fiction book had this as a premise. My Google-Fu is weak at the moment. But I seem to recall the general idea was the French took over the world in exactly this manner. Mind you, this had nothing to do with the plot...

    9. Re:It's all good until by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      I don't think it is intended to just power one country, but many. So, if country 1 produce a vast surplus and exports it to many other countries, these other countries may not be so fast to want it dismantled. Also, if it is feasible, it may not just be one country putting them up. Once one country do and they do have weapon potential, many of the other nuclear powers will. At the moment, this may not be a problem, but if a new cold war should arise, the full attack with no warning may make some hawks push for a preemptive attack.

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    10. Re:It's all good until by Spottywot · · Score: 2

      The problem is: How do you prove that it was an intentional event, as opposed to a malfunctioning of the controls?

      Or what if one country hacks into another country's control system and uses one of their satellites as weapon? If the satellite happens to be on the other hemisphere (so there's no danger of accidentally hitting the own country), they don't even need to have control. Just DoS the other country's control, and have the out-of-control satellite burn populated areas at random.

      Something like a system whereby the satellite will only transmit when it is within a fraction of a degree of its normal orientation, or a signal constantly transmitted by the base station when it is receiving, a combination of both. That's just off the top of my head while I'm at a party I'm sure the researchers involved have thought about this a lot.

      --
      In a cybernetic fit of rage she pissed off to another age...
    11. Re:It's all good until by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's sort of how it's done with nuclear power, the control rods default to being all in the core and the fuel rods default to being out of the core. So, barring the case where something comes in and prevents that from happening, the reaction comes to a gradual slow down and stops.

      Presumably, a satellite like this would be designed to default to off and require intervention to keep it on.

    12. Re:It's all good until by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Most likely this would be restricted to countries like the US that have a huge amount of space that's largely uninhabited. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any such nation that's also located close enough to the equator to have a geosynchronous orbit. IIRC, you really need to be within about 10 degrees of the equator, or something like that. If you get too far away, then the speed necessary to keep the satellite in orbit prevents it from staying directly above the receiver.

      The other alternative would be figuring out how to put the collector in the middle of the ocean, but the task of getting the power back to land, would be a challenge on par with the rest of it, and would likely be hugely inefficient.

    13. Re:It's all good until by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      "the microwave downlink gets misaligned and burns down the city block next to the ground station."

      Which they "solve" by placing the ground stations in the middle of nowhere. Which of course raises all the transmission-to-the-customer problems that this system was supposed to solve.

    14. Re:It's all good until by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      "It seems like the fear of weaponisation is whats kept this sort of thing from being explored more fully"

      Oh gebus, no. What's keeping these things from being explored is that anyone with a pocket calculator can easily determine that it can not possibly work.

      http://matter2energy.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/the-maury-equation-redux/

    15. Re:It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the possibility of turning such technology into weapons that people fear. It's the people that will get to run them all the time.

      Look at all the nuclear plants that had accidents, and every other major industrial disaster. It was never intentional, but always disastrous.
      If it can be weaponized, even if not by design, then the potential for disaster is even greater.

    16. Re:It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just off the top of my head while I'm at a party I'm sure the researchers involved have thought about this a lot.

      At a party browsing Slashdot. Nice to see some things still unchanged around here.

    17. Re:It's all good until by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't even have to focus it. Even at a low power level, it could very effectively impede the operation of radio communications.

      There's only so much that a country like the US could do with that - they are as dependant on battlefield communications as anyone. But think of how it could be abused by, say, China. If there's an embarassing scandal somewhere (preventable disease outbreak, building collapse due to lax government maintainance, etc), they can 'misalign' a beam to knock out all radio-based communication for a couple of days while they get the web-filters reconfigured and a team of damage control specialists deployed to make it clear to the people what happens if word gets out to the media.

      North Korea would probably just maintain a radio blackout of their entire country - but they don't have any hope of building this type of technology, so that's not going to happen.

    18. Re:It's all good until by gtbritishskull · · Score: 1

      This thing will be expensive enough without shipping up armor and some sort of guns for shooting down missiles. So, a cruise missile could probably blow it to smithereens.

    19. Re:It's all good until by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Modern nuclear plants have failsafe after failsafe. The control rods are held out of the core electromagnetically, so if the control system loses power they'll all drop instantly an initiate SCRAM.

      The reactor can still be dangerous afterwards, though - the unstable isotopes produced as a byprodct of fission continue to delay. That's what happened at Fukushima - the SCRAM worked perfectly, rods dropped the moment the earthquake hit, but the earthquake and tsunami managed to destroy not only the cooling system backup generators, but also the switchgear that connecte up the backup backup generators and the backup backup backup 'We're really screwed now' emergency external power interface for connecting portable generators or feeding power back from the grid. There was a design flaw in there - although there were four seperate means of powering the cooling system and full redundency in the switching, both that switching and the redundant backup were located in the main turbine hall, a room that the tsunami flooded.

      Despite all that panic though, Fukushima has a total of *zero* deaths as a result of any nuclear accident, and contamination of the surrounding land is minimal. The ocean took a lot of radiation, but all short-lived isotopes.

    20. Re:It's all good until by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Better than nukes. Nukes kill people - a microwave death star could fry anything with a long enough cable and leave people unharmed. Power lines, telephone cables. Zap a city before invading, or use it to disrupt enemy communications during air strikes to buy a few minutes longer before they can respond.

    21. Re:It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mote in God's Eye

    22. Re:It's all good until by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And even if it did work, it'd cost a ridiculous amount of money. So much money that the only way I can imagine any country building it would be as a covert weapons program.

    23. Re:It's all good until by HiThere · · Score: 1

      In the designs I've previously seen, you don't need to "solve" that problem, because it just doesn't exist. The prior plans called for the area under the microwave antenna to be pasture land. They didn't want it to be residential because there was no evidence that low level exposure to microwaves over a long period of time was safe. Short periods of time? No problem. You have much less intensity per square cm than you have in a microwave over. That's why the receiving antennas need to be so large. (But large doesn't mean expensive. It's [almost] just wire netting.)

      OTOH, I didn't look at this design. But from the size of the receiving antennas proposed nothing about that feature has changed.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    24. Re:It's all good until by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      Most likely this would be restricted to countries like the US that have a huge amount of space that's largely uninhabited. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any such nation that's also located close enough to the equator to have a geosynchronous orbit. IIRC, you really need to be within about 10 degrees of the equator, or something like that. If you get too far away, then the speed necessary to keep the satellite in orbit prevents it from staying directly above the receiver.

      Countries with lots of space and located close to the equator. You are aware of none ? You should take a closer look. Anyway, you don't need to be close to the equator to be a "target" of a geostationnary satellite. (TV service using GEO are covering Alaska or Norway) But the more away from the equator you are, the more inclined the beam will be, and you lose (horizontal) surface efficiency.

    25. Re:It's all good until by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      We have nukes. Chemical weapons are trivial to manufacture Why would anyone be concerned over the weaponization of a solar satellite when we have so much more efficient methods of mass murder hanging around on terra firma?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    26. Re:It's all good until by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Nope, nowhere near the kind of energy density to do that. You could look it up.

    27. Re:It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it seems as if you made this up due to lack of knowledge of how this works. The way it works it would not be capable of being used as a weapon. The radiowaves are sent down at a very low intensity level that would have no effect if turned elsewhere than intended. I think fear of weaponization has nothing to with it except in the minds of the uninformed.

    28. Re:It's all good until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you done with your happy talk?

      Fukushima was a disaster and it has terribly damaged the reputation of nuclear energy, Tepco, and even the Japanese government. Before the incident the message was "there are so many levels of protection, nothing can go wrong. Trust us." After the incident the message was "this was an old reactor with a flawed design. Management made numerous unforgivable mistakes. The government was knew the situation and failed in both telling the public, and correcting situation. Tepco and the government improperly colluded to mislead the citizens."

      Nor is this the first time the public has witnessed the dramatic change in stories from our authority figures. This turnabout completely undermines public faith in this technology. Most people in the nuclear industry, and the numerous nuclear energy fans, just don't get it. Nuclear has to be safe and uncompromised throughout multi-decade reactor lifetimes. Stop making excuses or trying to explain away horrible episodes with lame explanations.

      "Turbine hall blah blah blah". That's an engineering detail that no one cares about at this stage. You might as well criticize them for choosing the wrong paint colour on the walls.

      Oh, and given the Japanese history with nuclear weapons, the citizens there are a bit touchy about nuclear accidents. So it was doubly disastrous in the public relations department.

    29. Re:It's all good until by Spottywot · · Score: 1

      Now you're making me argue the case for weaponization, but that's OK. Heres one, North Korea start to ready their missiles to fire at Taiwan and don't respond well to diplomacy(not hard to imagine), I don't know exactly what an intense beam of microwaves would do to the propellant in those things but I would like to observe the results from a safe distance. In the case of Nuclear or Chemical weapons what good would they do in this situation? Or if you really wanted to nuke an enemy without getting nuked back use a few of these things to take out their offensive capability and hey presto, nuke away to you're hearts content. Actually that could be the next Bond plot, ex NSA crazy person(insert back story here) builds enough of these to destroy the rest of the worlds nuclear capability leaving his crazy country of choice (Iran/North Korea/France/........) as the only remaining nuclear power muhahahaha, only an inexplicably young looking British agent can save the world.

      --
      In a cybernetic fit of rage she pissed off to another age...
    30. Re:It's all good until by dj245 · · Score: 1

      ... There was a design flaw in there - although there were four seperate means of powering the cooling system and full redundency in the switching, both that switching and the redundant backup were located in the main turbine hall, a room that the tsunami flooded.

      Just to clarify, a main turbine hall is not one big room. Every power station is different, but the general arrangement is usually similar.

      Generally, the lowest level has the pumps, the drivers for the pumps (small steam turbines, or electric motors), oil tanks, water/oil filters, and heat exchangers systems for smaller equipment. Some of the MCC (motor control center) equipment is located here- electrical switching, power feed, and control for the various motors in the plant. The main electrical transformer is generally directly outside the turbine building on the ground, so there are often high-voltage lines in the ceiling of the lowest level.

      The middle level of a turbine building usually has more electrical equipment (usually the majority of electrical equipment), and some larger heat exchangers related directly to the steam turbine. The steam turbine condenser protrudes into this level.

      The top level of a turbine building has the turbine itself. There may or may not be a few heat exchangers on this level related to the steam turbine. For a nuclear plant, the cyclone steam separators are located here. In most cases, the control room is located at this elevation (but not necessarily in the same building), which makes this a good place to put the turbine controller (a couple of electrical cabinets).

      At Fukushima, the turbine building experienced 5 meters of flooding. This would put the lowest level completely underwater but the 2nd level should have been safe (turbine building levels are usually around 20ft high). However, this is enough to cripple a plant that was not designed accordingly.

      Incidentally, several large coal power stations on the coast were also flooded and similarly out of commission for many months. In Japan in 2011, 30% of the power was supplied by nuclear reactors. Add a few large coal power stations being offline and you have a serious power shortage crisis on your hands. When I first went to Tokyo in 2009, many parts of the city looked like Times Square. The last time I went (2012), those parts were pretty dark. Industry is still restricted on power consumption in the summer months.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    31. Re:It's all good until by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      I said:

      "Which they "solve" by placing the ground stations in the middle of nowhere"

      You said:

      "called for the area under the microwave antenna to be pasture land"

      Do you know many large pastures in downtown Manhattan?

      No?

      But you do know of some out in the country?

      Far away from the load?

      So you have to transport the power from the downlink to the load?

      Thank you for playing.

    32. Re:It's all good until by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Where do you think they normally put power plants?

      P.S.: There's no KNOWN reason that you couldn't put the antenna's on the tops of buildings, but people don't like the idea of even probably harmless radiation. And that's why they talk about pasture. If after a few decades the cows don't show any effects, then they'll talk about moving the antennas downtown.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  4. lol by etash · · Score: 4, Interesting

    how exactly can it "revolutionize disaster relief" when it needs an almost 40km^2 (6-8km in diameter) receiver array on the ground to get the power beamed from the satellite. Disaster relief means fast deployment. How fast can you deploy a 40km^2 grid on the ground?

    not even mentioning the fact that if you had 40km^2 of land you could just set solar panels there and do the thing for yourself with much less energy losses.

    1. Re:lol by BlueMonk · · Score: 2

      That does seem odd. I wonder if the 40km^2 is only required for large scale optimal receivers whereas if your power requirements were less or more of an emergency, less efficient receivers could be justified at a size that would be more portable and temporary.

    2. Re:lol by etash · · Score: 2

      the large grid was - as the article says - not for better efficiency but in order to avoid the energy-beam weapon thing. by design the power beamed down spreads out a lot and thus requires such a large collector.

    3. Re:lol by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Which makes me wonder, could this be used as a weapon as well? Why not design it so the beam can be focused and used as a death ray? This will enable DOD funding which should bring it into production ASAP. A dual purpose device for power generation or weapon of mass destruction.

    4. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're thinking, "POPCORN!". ...right?

    5. Re: lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The number of nukes flying towards any nation trying to weaponize near-earth space, may give you a hint of an answer.

    6. Re:lol by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      Now that's "Real Genius" there.

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089886/

    7. Re:lol by khallow · · Score: 0

      The technology will improve. It surprises me how people can live any time in the last century and not get that a prototype is going to be a bit clunkier than the final products? A 40 square km antenna may be impractical even for a prototype, but a football field-sized ground antenna wouldn't be.

    8. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ummm... they basically are setting up solar power receivers across that 40sq-km of land, just tuned to a wavelength that is less affected by water vapor. They are also receiving far more than 40sq-km of source solar power in space, 24 hours a day.

      IDK about disaster relief, but you certainly could make a nice weapon out of the power beamer, if that's your thing.

    9. Re:lol by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The problem there is that hitting a football field sized antenna is harder than hitting one that cover 30 square kilometers. You'd have to have a more advanced targeting system and you'd still have to put the most expensive part in space.

      Also, nice mixing of units, can I get this in LoC or hogsheads?

    10. Re:lol by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The technology is already good enough that you don't need that large an antenna. The antenna is designed to allow the capture of a lot of power at a low intensity. IIRC microwave power transmission is over 90% efficient at low intensities, though in this case you also need to use a wavelength that the atmosphere is transparent to. That means that it treats water vapor as transparent. Probably also liquid water (rain, sleet, snow, hail, you), because if they absorb energy, then it can't be picked up by the receiver. This probably means that only electrical conductors will absorb it. The frequency determines the size of the antenna needed to be the most efficient absorber. Multiples and fractions of the wavelength of the radiation is generally most effective, but this can be altered by applied electric charge. (Think tuning a radio.)

      The place where we can expect improvement is in the transmitter. That's got a lot of tricky parts that need to be quite durable. The antenna is already pretty good, and there probably isn't too much improvement possible...not if you want efficient reception.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    11. Re:lol by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The weapon in the movie was fired from the bomb compartment of a B1 Bomber, so would have been much closer to the target than a satellite weapon. It was a pretty tight beam (although apparently sufficiently diffused by aluminum foil to make its military usefulness a bit suspicious...), and could easily burn through everything except jiffy-pop pans, making all highly fortified bunkers not shielded with a layer of jiffy-pop vulnerable.

      I'm not sure what the characters in the movie were upset about. The purpose of the weapon could only have been to take out highly specific, high-value targets. Such a weapon could really only be used against those responsible for getting nations into a war - the top leaders of those nations - In theory it should protect the lives of the peasants who normally are the ones doing all the dying...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    12. Re:lol by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      You can only make a weapon out of it if it's designed to be a weapon in the first place. The beam is only going to be as narrow as your widest antenna dimensions allow. The cost of bring up an antenna/array capable of constraining the beam to be significantly narrower than the primary use case would be quite prohibitive.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    13. Re:lol by khallow · · Score: 1

      The problem there is that hitting a football field sized antenna is harder than hitting one that cover 30 square kilometers.

      Ok, so it's harder. The point of a prototype also is to explore and help make easier what is hard about doing something which you haven't done before.

    14. Re:lol by khallow · · Score: 1

      Also, nice mixing of units, can I get this in LoC or hogsheads?

      As an aside, can you, off the top of your head name something that is 40 square kilometers in area? Now, can you name something that is a football field (no matter the flavor of football you happen to relate more to) in size? Now consider that a lot of places throughout the world have football fields. That makes football fields as a unit of area quite relevant to this particular problem.

    15. Re:lol by khallow · · Score: 1

      The place where we can expect improvement is in the transmitter. That's got a lot of tricky parts that need to be quite durable. The antenna is already pretty good, and there probably isn't too much improvement possible...not if you want efficient reception.

      It's worth noting that if the system delivers less than about 100 W per sq meter, then it's probably not competitive with ground-based solar power (except in unusual situations such such as being near the poles or for disaster relief). At 100 W per sq meter and 40 sq kilometers, that's 40 MW of power.

      For disaster relief, you're not delivering 40 MW of power and hence don't need anything like that much antenna area. At 100 W per sq meter and a 100 meter by 25 meter antenna, you're looking at roughly 250kW of generation capacity which is reasonable for the needs of a large installation.

    16. Re:lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have any idea of the sheer amount of prototypes that have been built in the last century that went nowhere? What surprises me are people like you who seem to have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

    17. Re:lol by khallow · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea of the sheer amount of prototypes that have been built in the last century that went nowhere? What surprises me are people like you who seem to have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

      OTOH, I'm not surprised by your lack of critical thinking skills. I merely stated something which is pretty obvious. A prototype is almost never as good as a polished product.

      Now we could continue to debate the quality of my critical thinking skills or we could do something productive. I leave it up to you.

    18. Re:lol by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      You are such a small thinker aren't you?

      The answer is to drop it directly from space using an even bigger satellite.

      Boom! Instantaneous and abundant energy for everyone in a 150km radius!*

      *Side effects include but are not limited to: death, suffocation, blotting out the sun for a year, diarrhea, anxiety, total financial collapse, food riots and heart attacks.

    19. Re:lol by hparker · · Score: 1

      how exactly can it "revolutionize disaster relief" when it needs an almost 40km^2 (6-8km in diameter) receiver array on the ground to get the power beamed from the satellite. Disaster relief means fast deployment. How fast can you deploy a 40km^2 grid on the ground?

      Well, you could use the microwaves to warm everybody up nicely. :-)

  5. Japan and the ESA are doing it too by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Japan is already working on a prototype solar power satellite. The ESA has an active project. I'd hope NASA could work with them on this one.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    1. Re:Japan and the ESA are doing it too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this like the Ladder to Heaven competition?

    2. Re:Japan and the ESA are doing it too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Japan and Europe want to grind themselves into bankruptcy, go for it. NASA is cool, but the US is already in debt out the wazoo, and actually should start paying China back some interest in lieu of having to grant them land (think the Louisiana Purchase, but in reverse), not more junk that has no economic value. The sequester is a start, but until the economy gets better, boondoggles like NASA just need to be shut down until the cash is there to afford the frilly stuff.

    3. Re:Japan and the ESA are doing it too by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You are foolish. The expenditure on ALL space projects by the US is a minisicule fraction of the total government expenses. You could quadruple NASAs budget, and it wouldn't even show up as a blip in the overall budget.

      OTOH, this is the exact kind of thing NASA *should* be doing. Advanced research. Something that no company or corporation will do, because the payoff is decades away. I'm not a real fan of planetary exploration, robotic or human, but that's because I thing the asteroids are the important place. Sitll, they all require that similar problems be solved (though slightly differently, as asteroids don't have a requirement for a heavy lifter at the destination).

      P.S.: Don't expect libertarian asteroid governments. Asteroid governments are going to be highly dependent on complex technology. That means strict limits on anything that might be seen as damaging. Think, if optimistic, about constitutional monarchies, which a bit of a heavy emphasis on the monarch. And where anyone who's second cousin or so the the current monarch has a shot at being selected by the "council of elders" or some such to be the successor. Based as largely on their competence as their desire.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  6. Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The energy needed to put solar cells into orbit is not recouped over their lifetime outside the protecting atmosphere. Solar cells are used on spacecraft out of necessity, not because they're cost efficient.

    I know this is an unpopular view on Slashdot, where atomic energy fans come together to bash all other technologies, but solar cells work fine on the ground. You can fill the supply gaps with conventional power plants and still come out far ahead CO2-wise compared to the current power mix. Production has hardly scaled up, but solar cells are already competitive in some markets. The point of these stories about satellite solar farms is to give you the impression that there needs to be some extraordinary investment or innovation before solar power can be used. That's a lie, designed to put a drag on solar power. Solar power is ready to be used, you just have to do it.

    1. Re:Nope. by mark99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agree with the poster. I figure solar cells in space will not trump solar cells on the ground until we dramatically lower the cost of delivery to orbit. At the moment we SpaceX is quoting 4300 USD/Kg to orbit on a Falcon 9 (1.1 - still waiting on maiden flight Sept5), and maybe down to 1200 UDS/Kg for the not yet built or demonstrated Falcon Heavy. And that is to LEO, Solar Cells probably need GTO which is about twice as expensive. I can't imagine a space based array can be competitive at those prices.
      Now if someone built a rail-gun based launcher, then maybe it could make sense.
      And as AC mentioned, we are in the midst of a ground based solar cell revolution right now. Very cool...

    2. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here's some hard numbers on "traditional" approaches to solar ground vs space:
      http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/
      "You can even throw in batteries in the ground system without exceeding the space cost, and all the reasons for going to space have melted away."

      It would be interesting if TFA had some hard numbers to compare against in terms of generation capacity vs launch costs vs upkeep/replacement schedule... Can't find anything myself though...

    3. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Editors are different, but a (compared to other fora) disproportionately large amount of Slashdot commenters seem to subscribe to irrational right-wing denialism of gun violence, anthropogenic climate change and the effects of Fukushima. Maybe related to being rich US men in tech jobs?

    4. Re:Nope. by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      You can fill the supply gaps with conventional power plants and still come out far ahead CO2-wise compared to the current power mix.

      Not to mention that the periods where most power is being used is during the day, where solar power produce power, so solar power fits well with our current power consumption.

      Production has hardly scaled up, but solar cells are already competitive in some markets. The point of these stories about satellite solar farms is to give you the impression that there needs to be some extraordinary investment or innovation before solar power can be used. That's a lie, designed to put a drag on solar power. Solar power is ready to be used, you just have to do it.

      There is one issue with solar power (and a number of other renewable energy sources): They are not stable. Power output is dependent on weather patterns. Solar power has the additional issue that there is no output at night. The satellite solar farms is one way of getting around it. Another is to improve technology to store power, or to place solar power plants in areas where weather patterns are pretty constant (e.g. a desert).

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    5. Re:Nope. by khallow · · Score: 1

      The energy needed to put solar cells into orbit is not recouped over their lifetime outside the protecting atmosphere.

      It doesn't take that much energy. I think it's more to make them in the first place. Well, maybe I'll run some numbers to see what the relative costs are.

    6. Re:Nope. by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      I agree that putting a solar collector in orbit would be extraordinarily expensive using any currently extant technology. As would be maintaining it. On top of which, what would the point be? Solar energy can be collected on the surface at a small fraction of the cost and a technician can drive or walk to any component needing repair, Sure, a ground based facility might have to be larger than a space based facility, because of atrmospheric and sun angle losses. But not enough to make much difference?

      BTW, I have to believe that a solar collector in orbit would probably constitute mankind's largest ever solar sail Is there some simple, cost effective, way to keep it from departing orbit on a journey in the general direction of Betelgeuse?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    7. Re:Nope. by mark99 · · Score: 1

      An ion thruster I suppose would do the trick. Of course it would run out of Xenon after awhile, but ion engines have the highest fuel to force ratios short of a solar sail.
      Actually come to think of it I am not sure it is much of a problem. If you were in a geosynchronous orbit, surely the solar pressure would push you away half the time, but push you back the other half, right?

    8. Re:Nope. by taiwanjohn · · Score: 0

      Speaking of SpaceX, it's funny to hear Elon Musk talk about space-solar power. He absolutely hates it. The last interview I saw, he said something like, "It's so stupid! I wish I could just drive a stake through the heart of that idea, once and for all!"

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    9. Re:Nope. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      To what extent would the microwave beam be attenuated by weather (clouds etc)?

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    10. Re:Nope. by RicktheBrick · · Score: 2

      I will believe in solar power when my electrical power company comes to me and wishes to rent my roof for a dollar a year to place solar cells there. When they think it is a great investment so will I.

    11. Re:Nope. by rubycodez · · Score: 0

      some people stubbornly cling to facts. Like a small minority of the population, consisting of a couple subcultures, commits most the gun violence while the demographic that owns 90% of the guns has a crime rate comparable to homogeneous european countries. Total deaths from Fukushima disaster: zero. Total cases of radiation sickness from Fukushima disaster: zero. Total cancers caused by Fukushima disaster: zero.

    12. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suppose you get 10Wp per kg, including all supplementary systems (heat management, positioning, transmission, etc.). Further suppose you can get that much energy 24/7, at the ground station (quite a generous assumption). Then you can expect about 900kWh per kg over a 10 year lifetime. That's equivalent to about 90 liters of diesel, or 90 USD at 0.1 USD/kWh. To put a payload of roughly 10000kg into GTO, an Ariane 5 rocket uses about 170000kg of LOX/LH2 and 480000kg of HTPB/AP/Al. Strike four zeros everywhere and you end up with 17kg of LOX/LH2 and 48kg of HTPB/AP/Al burned per kg of payload. I don't know what they're developing, but it's not for supplying electricity to the general population.

    13. Re:Nope. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Although it may not be economical, there are significant advantages in space vs ground. Average daily insolation is at least 4X better. Because putting the space panels in place is so expensive, the fractional increase in cost of using high-tech panels is smaller: a 60% power/area (power/mass) improvement over single-crystal silicon.

      As long as the solar pressure on the installation is less than the Earth's gravitational pull, it should be possible to design an orbit that will keep it in place. After all, when the installation is nearer to the sun than the Earth, the sun's radiation is pushinf it toward the Earth.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    14. Re:Nope. by tmosley · · Score: 2

      That is why you don't lift the panels. Rather, you lift the equipment that needs to be built on Earth while sourcing that materials from somewhere off of earth. It's pretty low energy to get to geostationary from the moon. A captured asteroid would be even better. I wonder if it would be easy to make ultra-pure silicon in space?

    15. Re:Nope. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If we had a space gun or a space elevator or space manufacturing then it would make sense. But you know what might make more sense? Nuclear plants in space, beaming down their power. Then you don't have to deal with all that surface area.

      On the other hand, a space-based array could use roll-out thin film panels, because they don't have to resist gravity...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's being done in some countries, except they pay more than a dollar per roof and year.

    17. Re:Nope. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Although the costs are hard to tie down, your citation seems to imply a disadvantage of space solar over ground of at least 4X, and some of the assumptions are open to challenge. Substantial improvements in a variety of technologies would be needed for space to be as practical as ground.

      Still, I like the idea of at least doing some trial to work out bugs and make a standard for future experiments to be compared against.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    18. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which, on the next step along the path of infinite regress, leads to the question of how the manufacturing facilities are going to get up there?

      Long term, I don't doubt that we'll be manufacturing stuff in orbit, on a captured asteroid or on the moon. Right now it'd be like building an oil refinery in every town to avoid the cost of having to ship oil products separately around the country.

    19. Re: Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but a railgun-based launcher doesn't make sense at all. There's all sorts of gun-based launchers that do, but railguns are hard enough on relatively easier (lower velocity, lower projectile mass) specs such as the US Navy's projects. Something like tbfg.org's proposed ram accelerator is much more feasible.

      Might we, someday, be good enough at ultra-low-impedance machines that a railgun-to-space becomes feasible? Sure... but why wait around for that day when we have a good working grasp of the technology behind other designs? There's a world of cheap satellite comms* just waiting for cheap rides to LEO which will amply recoup the capital costs for the launch system, and meanwhile we can figure out the other applications (on-orbit fuel depots, space-based solar power, etc.).

      * could/should end up as ubiquitous as cellular mobiles, but without the dead spots throughout most of the plains states, without needing a different phone for boaters over the horizon from land, etc. The only thing stopping this now is the ridiculous cost of launching the huge constellation you need for full coverage.

    20. Re:Nope. by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Those aren't facts, those are a subset of the facts edited to support your point of view. You're leaving out things like the 19k gun suicides compared with the other 12k gun related homicides in a typical year in the US. And the fact that in Australia when they changed their gun laws to take the excess guns off the streets, they've had only 1 mass murder in 10 years, and that one used a knife, IIRC. And that one incident was a smaller number of people killed or injured than the typical US shooting spree. Compare that to the US where last year alone we had more gun deaths in mass murder sprees than they have had in a decade.

      Also a fact is that nobody is trying to take the guns away at this stage, we're pushing for proper back ground checks, reasonable limits on magazine size for firearms and other common sense measures.

      Whereas the gun nuts around here keep crying about how being slightly inconvenienced is barred by the 2nd amendment and how criminals will just break the law anyways. Perhaps they will, but that's no excuse for standing idly by while broken gun policy continues to take the lives of thousands of people each year that otherwise would be alive.

    21. Re:Nope. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Zero.

      I don't think that concept means what you think it means.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    22. Re:Nope. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Look, we can''t even manufacture duct tape in orbit yet. Much less pure silicon.

      I hope you're a very patient fellow.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    23. Re:Nope. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The JAXA and ESA plans both assume that only small scale systems will be used at first, probably for disaster relief and maybe military use (powering military devices, not as a weapon itself). When the cost of orbiting stuff comes down it will then move on to large scale commercial operation.

      Skimming TFA it appears that this is how NASA sees it as well.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    24. Re:Nope. by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      "I know this is an unpopular view on Slashdot, where atomic energy fans come together to bash all other technologies"

      It's the same everywhere. And I really don't understand why. All logic suggests nuclear supporters should be equally supportive of solar as well. Bunker mentality?

      http://matter2energy.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/why-solar-is-nuclears-best-friend/

    25. Re:Nope. by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      > Average daily insolation is at least 4X better

      And transmission losses take 1/2 of that.

      Cell lifetime takes another 1/2.

      > the fractional increase in cost of using high-tech panels is smaller

      That is the most bizarre argument I've heard in a while.

      "No one can possibly afford this car, so we may as well make it out of solid gold."

    26. Re:Nope. by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 2

      "Substantial improvements in a variety of technologies would be needed for space to be as practical as ground."

      This is the lottery fallacy.

      For argument's sake, let's say there are 1000 technologies in an SPS system - rocket engines, solar cells, lightweight aerostructures, turbo pumps, new inverter topologies, etc.

      The vast majority of the list of possible improvements improves both the ground and space-based systems. For instance, if you improve the performance of solar cells, then both the ground and space based systems will improve.

      So in order to close the 4x gap between space and ground, you need to improve *only those things that are used only on the space version*.

      And that's the lottery. Given equal chances of improvement in any of the technologies involved, the vast majority of those will not change the relative value of the two systems.

    27. Re:Nope. by recharged95 · · Score: 1

      "microwave link to the ground. "

      And there' the problem with his argument. Taking existing tech and retro fitting to the application. I rather have batteries constructed in space (via mining asteroids) and 'drop shipping' them to the ground. Then being recycled when used up. Hopefully by the time we have too much to recycle, space elevators will be created of the cost of shipping stuff back into space is 1/20th the current costs.

      The current thoughts about space based power does not take an integrated approach, much like we are taking a bit from the river with a spoon rather than stepping into the river with a bucket.

      Then imagine nearly unlimited common power and power generation in space? People will move up there... and that changes the whole game.

    28. Re:Nope. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I will imagine that pure silicon might turn out to be easier to manufacture than duct tape, though, considering the materials available...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    29. Re:Nope. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Unh.,.. Just how soon do you think cancers could be expected to show up? That's not a fact, that's a hope. One that isn't in any way justifiable.

      OTOH, I will agree that it will probably never be possible to look at any one particular case of cancer and say definitively that this particular cancer was caused by Fukishima. What WILL be possible is to look a a population of cancers and say "This proportion was probably caused by Fukishima.".

      I believe that in your other two "facts" you may be committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but I haven't studied the situation sufficiently to have any certainty. (And you haven't specified how one is to distinguish the membership of the "couple of subcultures" from the rest...outside, that is, of using guns illegally.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    30. Re:Nope. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It's always seemed to me that for an SPSS the logical source of power would be a heat engine. Perhaps a Sterling cycle engine. Lubrication would, of course, be a problem.

      Another alternative would be manufacturing the cells in orbit. (There is talk about capturing an asteroid.) Cells made in orbit could be designed with large traces, for durability, and wouldn't need to be rugged enough to survive liftoff. Perhaps some sort of 3D printer could be used. (We wouldn't need a high volume.) FWIW I've already heard of a 3D printer that could print integratted circuits, though I'm not sure how well it works, or what medium it uses.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    31. Re:Nope. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      This depends entirely on the frequency chosen. One should presume that they chose a frequency that is minimally affected by those. There are many such, though they ARE a minority. Probably something long enough that the term "microwave" is a misnomer.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    32. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you factor the costs of the dies, panels, charge controllers, batteries, and inverters, solar cells don't even come close to recouping their cost to make on earth either.

      Atomic energy is a failed product (Japan and Russia are experiencing that firsthand); we need to move on and use the tried and true energy sources we have (oil/gas/coal) in better and less polluting ways, because we keep hearing about new energy sources, but invariably, they, just like holographic storage, turn out to be just more hucksters looking to screw some investors.

    33. Re:Nope. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Even if those numbers are correct, they could be great for powering other satellites. Or even for beamed power transmission to an ion-rocket headed WAY out.

      For any particular set of numbers there is a range of uses. Could be large, could be small. Personally I think it could be the best way to power a refinery build on a captured asteroid, e.g. Of course, first you need to capture the asteroid, but there's another group(s?) of people working on that.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    34. Re:Nope. by mrchew1982 · · Score: 2

      "things like the 19k gun suicides" that your "common sense" measures WOULD DO NOTHING to stop.

      It only takes ONE bullet in ANY gun to take a life. By eliminating a certain style of gun you aren't necessarily going to stop the deaths.

      I'll go for the low hanging car analogy: Sports cars and motorcycles cause a disproportionately large number of deaths. Let's make the streets safer and ban sports cars and motorcycles! Sound ludicrous? While thats just like banning a certain type of firearm.

      Cars and motorcycles with higher horsepower cause more deaths. Theres no reason that ANYONE should need a car with more than 4 cylinders! Let's put a capacity limit on engines! Number of cylinders, displacement, horsepower, take your pick! Sound ridiculous? This is just like setting limits on the number of rounds a magazine can hold.

      Also note that neither one of these laws would probably end up saving a single life. Stupid people are going to do stupid things regardless of what sticks you give them to hit themselves with.

      And if you want to put your expectations into law don't get pissed when others do the same. Drug laws, Marriage laws, Car laws, etc etc.

      Please mod me and parent as off-topic, because that's what this is!

    35. Re:Nope. by ganv · · Score: 1

      This comment sounds like Elon Musk himself. There is even a Freudian slip 'we'. http://www.popularmechanics.com/how-to/blog/elon-musk-on-spacex-tesla-and-why-space-solar-power-must-die-13386162

    36. Re:Nope. by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      I know I am. I'm not entirely certain about PV; IIRC PV panel production is a fairly toxic process. OTOH the efficiency and lifetime of those things have increased over the years, making PV a much better proposition than a few years ago. Traditionally I've been more interested in solar-thermic, myself.

      I think a fair bit of the whole "nuclear vs. renewable" thing comes from the fact that people like the various Green parties are arguing that nuclear power is always evil and that renewable power is always the answer. If you get involved in this kind of discussion then you're either pro-renewable (and thus in favor of abandoning nuclear power altogether) or pro-nuclear (and thus in favor of abandoning renewable energy) - positions like "IFRs can make nuclear power part of a sustainable energy mix and help us deal with the nuclear waste problem" are not permitted because people want their world to be black and white, apparently.

      But hey, it's difficult enough to get people to acknowledge the difference between "properly executed, nuclear power has great potential" and "we should do nuclear power in the future exactly as we have been doing it so far".

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    37. Re:Nope. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Here's some hard numbers on "traditional" approaches to solar ground vs space:
      http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/

      Firstly, I think everyone realises that space-based solar power makes no sense if you have to launch it from Earth on a current generation rocket at $20,000 a pound. The only economically viable plans I've seen for building them were based on building them in space from materials collected in space, and even they fell apart when you put real-world launch costs in there rather than NASA's 1970s 'out of the ass' numbers for the space shuttle.

      Secondly, from what I remember, the designs I've seen used heat engines, not solar panels. Most of the spacecraft would be mirrors, not PV cells.

      Space-based solar power may not make financial sense for decades to come (if ever), but that article makes about as much sense as those in the 1920s proving that you could never build an airliner that would carry more than a handful of passengers at more than a hundred and fifty miles per hour. They were perfectly true within the assumptions they made, but their assumptions were retarded.

    38. Re:Nope. by khallow · · Score: 1

      And transmission losses take 1/2 of that.

      More like 15-25%. Same goes for cell lifetime which also clobbers Earth-side solar cells too.

      > the fractional increase in cost of using high-tech panels is smaller

      That is the most bizarre argument I've heard in a while.

      It may be bizarre, but it is a mostly correct observation. The cost of putting stuff in orbit is currently at best around $4k per kg. SpaceX might drop that down as low as $2k per kg. And if reusable space vehicles can bring access to space down to the level of modern airlines (that is, roughly three times the cost of propellant), then you can get the cost down to about $100 to $300 per kg. So there is a weight advantage to using more efficient solar cells which can translate into significant savings.

      Against that, you have to consider that such solar cells will probably be more susceptible to degradation from space-based radiation sources.

    39. Re:Nope. by tmosley · · Score: 1

      But...that's cost effective, when the only means of travel between towns costs $2000 a pound.

    40. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, someone hasn't let reality get in the way of his delusions, eh? Put down the sci-fi, it was garbage for kids. Wake up.

    41. Re:Nope. by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      I think, and I'm not as smart as I once was, so this an opinion, not a statement of fact, that a geosynchronous satellite would be eclipsed by the Earth for a significant percentage of the time. There's probably an orbit that maximizes energy collection, but I don't have the slightest idea what it looks like.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    42. Re:Nope. by Lloyd_Bryant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think, and I'm not as smart as I once was, so this an opinion, not a statement of fact, that a geosynchronous satellite would be eclipsed by the Earth for a significant percentage of the time. There's probably an orbit that maximizes energy collection, but I don't have the slightest idea what it looks like.

      Not all that significant. Remember that the Earth's equator is inclined about 23 degrees relative to the plane of the ecliptic. Because of this tilt, combined with the distance the satelleite is from the Earth, a solar power satellite will experience *no* eclipses from the Earth for about two thirds of the year, and some period of eclipse during the remaining third. But even at the worst point in the cycle, the eclipse period is only about 70 minutes per day.

      Net result is that a good old geosynchronous orbit is good enough for a solar power satellite (and greatly reduces the headaches of keeping the power beam targeted at the receiver).

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I had one once. It sucked.
    43. Re:Nope. by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Here in Los Angeles there are "we want to rent your roof" ads in the LA Times every week. Granted they aren't being placed by the power company, but by solar companies, but I think that reflects the hidebound nature of DWP more than anything else.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    44. Re:Nope. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Suppose you get 10Wp per kg

      Suppose instead you get 100 watts peak per kg including those supplemental systems and can direct that power at one of a number of ground stations (with a preference for those that are experiencing high load). Then your 1 kg of payload consumes a few hundred dollars of propellant in exchange for about $900 dollars of electricity. It's not going to work with current launch systems, but it might with what we have in a few decades.

      It's worth noting also that such a system is basically a fancy solar sail. That gives us both considerable maneuvering capability and some degree of natural heat management.

    45. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100Wp including everything is unlikely. That's ten times what you get with Earth based solar cells that don't need a propulsion system (with propellant), transmitter, heat management and their own support structure. Besides, even though the propellant already eclipses the likely energy return, it is still a minor cost in launching stuff into space. The rocket is the expensive part. Space based solar power will only ever be useful for applications where you really can't have a ground based power plant, and that excludes all civilian applications. A war zone is the most plausible use case for this technology. That's going to cause some truly broken consciences if the people working on this believe that they're building eco-technology.

    46. Re:Nope. by khallow · · Score: 1

      That's ten times what you get with Earth based solar cells that don't need a propulsion system (with propellant), transmitter, heat management and their own support structure.

      And which both have to support their own weight against Earth gravity and don't experience a serious cost versus mass trade off.

      Space based solar power will only ever be useful for applications where you really can't have a ground based power plant, and that excludes all civilian applications.

      The obvious rebuttal is disaster relief. Since all civilian applications aren't excluded, your argument needs work.

    47. Re:Nope. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      theres also atmospehric attenuation to account for. i dont know what the factor would be offhand, but it's another hit to the efficiency of the system.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    48. Re:Nope. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you know, i had a really long post to reply, but i lost it. so i'll just say this: you're an idiot.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    49. Re:Nope. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      first off, youre suicide number is made up. pulled frm thin air. not true.
      secondly, banning all the cars first will save more lives than removing all the guns.
      as in 45k per year on average.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    50. Re:Nope. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Not really a bizarre argument. Its the flipside of the following scenario:

      Used to work in a grocery store. They used to waste 1000's a day on BS returns to make customers happy, food tossed out because "expired" (wasnt really, but place was high end,had high quality goals).

      and then they'd turn around and try to save pennies on turning out the light in the workers bathroom (a single, fairly dim, flourescent bulb).

      Saving pennies when youre spending thousands isnt that logical. neither is cheaping out on solar panels when you're already spending a premium to put em in space.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    51. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are saying this is a cover for building a space-based weapon?

    52. Re:Nope. by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      "More like 15-25%. Same goes for cell lifetime which also clobbers Earth-side solar cells too"

      No, 1/2. The transmitter is about 70%, the receiver about 90 and the inverters about 95.

      70 x 90 x 95 = 59% ~= 1/2

      "Same goes for cell lifetime which also clobbers Earth-side solar cells too"

      LOLZ. Which do you think is more hostile to long-term survival of solar cells, outer space, or Nevada? Use Google, prove your conclusion.

      "It may be bizarre, but it is a mostly correct observation"

      Not even remotely. Do the math, or if you don't know how, Google it. here, I'll save you the trouble:

      http://matter2energy.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/the-maury-equation/

      Long and short, unless launch costs are ~$10 a kg, you're losing money on an SPS.

    53. Re:Nope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with solar power in general is that it's not scalable. A significant portion of the the Earth itself is powered by solar power. If you extract a significant amount of power from that the Earth will fail.

    54. Re:Nope. by e_hu_man · · Score: 1

      so, i don't mean to weigh in on the value of doing this. okay, i will, but i agree that it's a bad idea. however, to really get this right, isn't there a temperature component? i know it works in the space-based system's favor, though i've not run the calculation to see how much.

      also, on your blog post, if you take away the tracker on the ground-based system, does it just scale down by 1/sqrt(2)?

    55. Re:Nope. by Hentes · · Score: 1

      While I don't exactly agree about the economic competitiveness of PV, you are right in that it's pointless to shoot a solar cell into orbit when it already works fine on the ground. Granted, there's the advantage of pointing directly towards the Sun at all time with no night and no clouds. That can give you a production that's 8-10 times more, not counting the losses of beaming. So until shooting a PV into orbit becomes cheaper than buying 9 more, this idea is pretty useless.

    56. Re:Nope. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      some people stubbornly cling to facts... Total cancers caused by Fukushima disaster: zero.

      Apparently you're not one of those who stubbornly stick to facts. A quick googling turns up pages and pages of news stories about thyroid cancers, that one showed up first.

  7. and when something goes wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    can't wait for this to malfunction and cook my food in the backyard without any source but the beam......the grass might suffer but hey.

    1. Re:and when something goes wrong.. by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      Just place the ground station somewhere nobody will give a shit about, like Jersey.

    2. Re:and when something goes wrong.. by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      can't wait for this to malfunction and cook my food in the backyard

      This satellite wouldn't be capable of that. It does not use laser to transmit the beam down exactly because of the risks a high-power laser would pose if it ever were to become misaligned. No, this satellite transmits the power down via radio-waves and the biggest downside of that, if it ever were to become misaligned, would be haywire radio-equipment.

    3. Re:and when something goes wrong.. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Go find a discarded old style rear projection TV. disassemble to get the giant Fresnel lens out of it.

      You now have your very own death ray that will set wet grass on fire and scorch concrete.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:and when something goes wrong.. by russotto · · Score: 1

      You now have your very own death ray that will set wet grass on fire and scorch concrete.

      Liar. I tried that last night and it didn't work at all.

    5. Re:and when something goes wrong.. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      You had it facing the wrong way.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  8. Control API Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As opposed to seemingly every other ICS out there, would someone please at least a security engineer before they design the control API for the thing?

    1. Re:Control API Security by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Funny

      would someone please at least a security engineer before they design the control API for the thing?

      No. There's no pleasing security engineers.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    2. Re:Control API Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An attractive female skilled in the arts might please me. Even or should I say especially if she exploits some vulnerabilities... ;)

  9. Great, another object in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Make it big enough and block the sun, then charge for sunlight. I can't believe that some huge corporation hasn't found a way to get people (members/users?) to pay for sunny days yet, but things like this should get that ball rolling.

    1. Re:Great, another object in space by amacbride · · Score: 1
      Simpsons Did It!

      Burns then reveals to Smithers his grandest scheme: the construction of a giant, movable disk that will permanently block out the sun in Springfield, forcing the residents to continuously use the electricity from his power plant.

  10. Everything old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember a proposal like this back in the 1960's. My first question then is my first question now: If a satellite can "beam down" enough power to be useful as a power source, how is it not an orbital directed energy weapon?

    1. Re:Everything old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's never been abused before. There will be oversight by the operating organization. Consumer, please stand on your federally mandated GPS coordinates.

    2. Re:Everything old is new again by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It is trivially easy to mechanically design the transmitting antenna so that the beam when it reaches the earth has a minimum diameter. The design being discussed has an intensity at the ground of 1/4 sun.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    3. Re:Everything old is new again by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I remember a proposal like this back in the 1960's. My first question then is my first question now: If a satellite can "beam down" enough power to be useful as a power source, how is it not an orbital directed energy weapon?

      Forgot to read TFA again, did we?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Everything old is new again by PPH · · Score: 1

      The design being discussed has an intensity at the ground of 1/4 sun.

      That's like standing a few meters away from a microwave oven with a broken safety interlock running with the door open. No thanks.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Everything old is new again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No its not. Don't spread BS FUD when you simply are uninformed.

    6. Re:Everything old is new again by PPH · · Score: 2

      Lets think about that.

      The solar constant is about 1.36 kW/m^2. One quarter sun would be about 0.34 kW/m^2.

      My microwave magnetron output is 0.75 kW. Spread out on a sphere of 2.2 m^2, this is 0.34 kW/m^2.

      The area of a sphere is 4*PI*r^2, so r = 0.42 m

      I was wrong. Its like standing in front of a microwave with its door open a little less than half a meter away. I was being conservative in my previous post.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  11. It solves a non-problem, at very high cost. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't see any need for this. Most cooling and heating uses of electricity can be easily moved from nigh-time to day-time, just like when mid-day electricity was peak price. Unless they can show that there overall price, including transport to space, monitoring and maintenance of space and ground equipment, transportation losses, etc. beat _ALL_ current and near-future electricity storage solutions by a large margin. I don't see that happening.

  12. what a euphemism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ancient:

    causing Roman ships to burst into flame

    Modern:

    deliver power to any place on the ground that it can see

  13. Single Point of Failure 'Fail' by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 2

    Energy is life and civilization. Balancing an industrial society on the razor edge of a single point of failure is itself a 'fail'. Whether the failure would occur technically or politically is of little consequence.

    The catch-22 is impossible to avoid. If orbital solar doesn't scale then it is a waste of resource, if it does then it's a single point of (catastrophic) failure.

    Terrestrial power plants can be replicated easily, hardened from sabotage, operated and maintained within many sovereign countries at once, can easily swap out parts. That is what you would wish to ensure the future.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG1YjDdI_c8

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
    1. Re:Single Point of Failure 'Fail' by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 1

      I agree about single points of failure, but I think some of your points are a bit of a stretch.
      However, storing excess energy using hydrogen or molten salt might be good enough to keep things ticking over until repairs are done. But of course this is just a band-aid solution.
      But obviously solar plants would be great for refining ore mined in space before it is plunged down to earth where energy is more expensive (or it could be manufactured further in space, eventually).

  14. As long as we keep it... by Alejux · · Score: 1

    off the hands of Bond villains and other evil master minds...

  15. . . . IF MAN IS STILL ALIVE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, wait . . .

      500 years on !!

  16. LOL by sjwt · · Score: 1

    In no way is this a "Lets put up a microwave beam weapon satellite and pretend that we are beaming power down by installing a secret Nuke reactor under a big dish."

    --
    You have 5 Moderator Points!
    Which Helpless Linux zealot/MS basher do you want to mod down today?
  17. The real question is whether entropy is reversible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, the sun is going to run out eventually, no?

    (Plagiat is intentional)

  18. So why not...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Solar power falls off as r^2 from the sun. So why not put a giant magnifying glass in solar orbit at 10% earth distance and as long as there is line of sight between this thing and the magnifying glass (you could deploy multiple to get line of sight all the time) then you increase the solar flux reaching the satellite 100x.

    If you can get the magnifying glass at 1% earth distance then you can increase solar flux reaching this thing 10000 times. seems like relatively little work for a major pay off. Mine asteroids for the materials for the magnifying glass or you could built an inflatable one. It doesn't need to be a complex design.

    1. Re:So why not...? by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because solar orbit at 10% earth distance would make the magnifying glass zoom around the sun multiple times per earth year. There would be no way to get the rays from the glass to the collector. You'd be better off having the collector out there with an amiable maser.

    2. Re:So why not...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point taken but still. I don't get why they are planning for earth orbit when some form of solar orbit offers improvements in the 2-5 orders of magnitude range.

    3. Re:So why not...? by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      A reflector (mirror) is a much better solution for increasing the energy delivered to ground.
      It can be very thin and light so it can be made very large. It is also possible to focus several mirrors over the same area.
      Unfortunately it will still make a pretty good weapon...

  19. Aliens COULD be in control of our nation. by ioconnor · · Score: 1

    Has slashdot decided to start republishing tabloid stories from the grocery lines?

  20. what could go wrong? by csumpi · · Score: 1

    "convert that sunlight across a large radio frequency aperture into a coherent microwave beam and transmit the power to markets on Earth"

    What could go wrong when pointing a large microwave beam at Earth?

  21. It's a cover by MetricT · · Score: 2

    Space-based solar doesn't make a lot of sense until we get a whole lot closed to a Kardashev Type I civilization than we actuallly are. There's simply no way that firing panels into space on a $100 million dollar rocket is more cost effective than sticking them on the ground where Bob the Electrician can install and maintenance them.

    It does make sense though in some *very* limit circumstances. If you frequently work in areas that have no power infrastructure, and can afford the jaw-dropping premium of space-based power. Those two facts suggest this is the public face of some kind of military or intelligence project.

    1. Re:It's a cover by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, we're more of a Kardashian Type ''civilization' now.

      We're doomed.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:It's a cover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And solar panels on the ground make even less sense than gas turbine based power plants. You can run on natural gas in markets like the US and Europe, and on fuel oil, jet fuel, naphtha in countries where NG is less developed. The power density of a gas turbine simple cycle or combined cycle power plant defeats all other technologies to date, costs far less, emits much less CO2 than coal, and requires very little in government subsidies. The latest technology achieves better than 60% LHV efficiency as well.

      The present is natural gas technology. The future lies with fuel cells and nuclear. Wind and solar are only feasible by government fiat, and nearly useless in many parts of the world. Space based solar is ridiculous based on cost alone.

    3. Re:It's a cover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have been saying that since there was more than one person. No one is doomed, no one is going anywhere. Grow up, stop wearing so much black eyeliner and slitting your wrists.

  22. Prediction about 5 years too late by NaiveBayes · · Score: 1

    According to Sim City 2000 we should be getting this by 2020.

  23. Sounds like the book Energized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happens if the microwaves beams are used as weapons against earth?

    Spoiler alert, the book Energized by Edward Lerner (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13137561-energized) is about a power satellite that is taken over by bad people and used as a weapon against earth. Really good book.

    Who gets to control the power? What kind of security is involved? Prelude to weaponization of space?

  24. It's safe up there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "An orbiting plant would be unaffected by weather, atmospheric filtering of light, and the sun's inconvenient habit of setting every evening." This is wonderful as everyone knows there isn't anything in space that could fly into the thing now that all the asteroids, space junk and comet debris have been cleared from earth orbit forever.

  25. Used on Mars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe satellites could be used on mars to help keep colonists warm.

  26. How efficient is this thing? by umafuckit · · Score: 1

    By the time you've taken into account the costs of launching this thing into space (and maintaining it) won't regular solar power work out as being more efficient? Alternatively, what about spending the money on developing more efficient solar panels?

    1. Re:How efficient is this thing? by danknight48 · · Score: 0

      I would be more concerned regarding the required power to actually "Beam" it back down to earth.
      No doubt the beam will be in a laser form which will probably waste 90%+ of the power received from the cells.

      Energy efficient, i very much doubt it lol

  27. "no night" orbit? by dltaylor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only orbits that have no period when the sun is blocked by Earth's shadow ("night") are polar (remember the pictures of sunrise over the Earth shot from space by various astro/cosmonauts?). No single ground station could receive the power.

    Also, there would be considerable photon pressure pushing the satellite(s) away from the Sun and, hence, Earth, plus gravitational drag attempting to pull the orbits around he Earth. Not a big deal for a short-term recon satellite, but these would be intended to there for years. Any of the rocket scientists out there know if the polar orbits are even vaguely stable, or will the satellite need boatloads of fuel to stay where it's needed. Of course, the beam of Earthbound power is a thruster, too, raising the orbit.

    Put the collector at the Eath-Sol L1 and you've got to have REALLY good beam control to keep from raising the temperature of the entire Earth.

    Sounds more like weapon than a power source to me.

    1. Re:"no night" orbit? by MattskEE · · Score: 1

      What you say would be true for a low alititude orbit.

      According to Tom Murphy's analysis: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/ a satellite in geosynchronous orbit is so far enough away that it is only shaded for a very short period of time per day, and then only when it is near the equinox so that the earth is directly between the sun and the satellite, resulting in about 0.7% shaded time on average.

      Or course at the end of the day the economics still don't seem to work out for solar power unless launch costs drop dramatically.

    2. Re:"no night" orbit? by dltaylor · · Score: 1

      I wonder if it's possible to have a stable "high inclination" orbit so that the satellite moves north-south during its orbit to have the orbit clear of the Earth's shadow while "behind" the Earth? It should take no more than 6700 km at 42000 km above Earth's center, which is not THAT many degrees of inclination (10?). That way the satellite would always be in full sun, although it would increase the apparent thickness of the atmosphere at most angles.

      Really needs a superconducting skyhook if we had a true geosynchronous (apparently stationary WRT a ground station) orbit.

      Still not terribly "green", since we'd be adding many megawatts of power to the input side of Earth's power budget.

    3. Re:"no night" orbit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The axis of the orbit doesn't rotate, so the equator crossing points will align with the Sun twice a year anyway. Remember that the Earth is already tilted, so further tilting doesn't help.

  28. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't we do this, about a hundred times cheaper, on the ground?

    Oh right, we need our gigantic orbital death lasers.

  29. JAXA already working on it by Hebetsubeach · · Score: 2

    JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency) has been working on such a system from a number of years and plans to have 1-gigawatt space solar power system operating around 2030. http://www.jaxa.jp/article/interview/vol53/index_e.html

  30. -MICROWAVE POWER- in simcity 2000 by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    it should be hear in 2020 but in 2050 FUSION power is better.

    1. Re:-MICROWAVE POWER- in simcity 2000 by zippthorne · · Score: 2

      If SimCity has taught me anything, it's that it's cost-effective and, indeed, safest to bulldoze and rebuild power-plants every 49 years, exactly.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  31. Homer Simpson will be the safety / control room gu by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Homer Simpson will be the safety / control room guy

  32. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by rgbatduke · · Score: 2

    The obvious question is if the beams can be focused, and used as a weapon, it could provide a no-warning and very destructive attack anywhere in the world. It seems to be what Mankins is trying to avoid, and I tend to agree that (aside from cost) we really, really need to make sure that the power sources of the future are not just being used to cloak the real objective: Making powerful weapons.

    Let me help you with that. The answer to your obvious question is "yes". Hence the problem...

    Of course there are dozens of ways to use a high orbital position to control the Earth. Nuclear armed satellites. Project Thor. A nice collection of medium sized asteroids movable/targetable by means of e.g. Orion (small nukes used to push them, solar powered ion jets or solar sails for finer control).

    I worked through the physics of this out of sheer curiosity a few years ago, and no, it really won't ever really be "safe", nor will it ever be cost effective. It is, in fact, a really stupid idea as far as I can tell. Solar cells are cheap and plentiful right here on the Earth, and are getting cheaper all the time. If you take a square kilometer of the Earth's surface, you have order of million square meters of collector (times cosine theta). On a cloud free day, you have anywhere from 700 to 900 watts/m^2 hitting the collector panels (peak a bit higher, these are sort-of-averages). Depending on the kind of panel, you get (say) 10% conversion (cheaper panels get less, more expensive ones get more). Call it 90 watts per square meter. Your one kilometer square area thus yields ballpark of 90 megawatts -- but let's say only 50 (and of course, only during the daytime). 20 square kilometers is thus a gigawatt plant, which is quite respectable -- an area some (say) 5 km squared, allowing for roads and access and the need to be able to tip them through at least some angle to maintain a small angle of incidence as the sun moves overhead. The cost per watt of the panels is order of $1 (probably less, at this scale). The cost of the land is whatever we want it to be, if we use public lands or inexpensive fallow lands that cannot be used for much else (abundant in the southwest, less so in the more developed midwest and east). Let's presume that the additional cost of the land, the electronics, and at least a modest storage array to buffer small fluctuations in power delivery is another $1/watt. You end up with a 1 GW plant for 2 billion dollars, which is actually not particularly crazy even now in places where electricity costs a lot (which is why private citizens are doing it). In reality, I think it would end up costing maybe half of this by the time economies of scale kicked in, which would give you an amortization time of less than a decade on the initial capital investment and at least a decade of pure profit. Not the fastest way to make money, but not a money loser and in a market dominated by low interest rates a not unreasonable ROI.

    Now take the same solar panels -- the EXACT same solar panels, mind you -- into orbit. A couple of useful (approximate) numbers. It costs 64 megajoules to give 1 kg escape velocity (1/2 times 1 kg times (11.2 \times 10^6)^2). An orbit costs anywhere from 1/2 of this to the full amount, depending on the orbit. A geosynchronous orbit would actually cost most of it at 5 R_e -- call it 50 megajoules per kilogram. Of course, this is the pure energy cost at perfect efficiency. In fact, the cost in US dollars per kilogram in GEO is order of $10,000!

    Assuming -- not unreasonably -- that the solar panels we lift into orbit mass out at a 100 grams per square meter, and are absolutely egregious in assuming that they get ten times the power per square meter compared to collectors on the Earth's surface (2-3 from higher insolation, the rest from extending "daylight" hours by a factor of almost three, still leaves us short but with round numbers) we can, indeed, get our (earth surface equivalent) orbiting GW at an equivalent cost factor of roughly 100. That m

    --
    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
  33. Been done with disastrous results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I saw the disastrous effects of this very system on an episode of Futurama and everyone under the reflected light toasted into vapor.

    Just sayin' -- you get your science from your sources, I'll get mine... etc.

  34. True Quantum Devices by edibobb · · Score: 1

    "the receiver on Earth will be large—about 6 to 8 km in diameter, positioned 5 to 10 meters above the ground. It will be constructed from millions of rectifier diodes—true quantum devices—wired together." I had no idea they've been building quantum devices since the 1950's.

    1. Re:True Quantum Devices by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      "the receiver on Earth will be large—about 6 to 8 km in diameter, positioned 5 to 10 meters above the ground. It will be constructed from millions of rectifier diodes—true quantum devices—wired together." I had no idea they've been building quantum devices since the 1950's.

      You know, we've had quantum mechanics since the 1920s or so. I'm not sure how much the first solid state diodes were based on quantum theory or simply empirical knownedge, but by the time the transistor was invented in 1948, they probably had a pretty solid (pun intended) idea about the role of quantum mechanics.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    2. Re:True Quantum Devices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you think a tunnel diode was?

    3. Re:True Quantum Devices by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I had no idea they've been building quantum devices since the 1950's.

      Plants have been building quantum devices - a.k.a chlorophyll molecules in chloroplasts - since ... well the date is uncertain, but given that the "Great Oxidation Event" was pretty much over before 1950 million years ago, the invention date was significantly before then.

      Oh, you mean humans making quantum devices? Hmmm, paints and phosphor have some interesting properties at the atomic and molecualr scale, though I can't think of any specifically quantum examples back in the 19th century. So I'll stick to the junction diode ("cat's whisker", of "tickling" fame) which was discovered in the early 20th century. My grandfather was making and re-making one in the 1930s.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  35. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

    "The cost per watt of the panels is order of $1 (probably less, at this scale). "

    We sell 1st tier, 3rd party warranty panels for 69 cents RETAIL. Large-buy wholesale prices are around 50 cents right now.

    "get ten times the power per square meter"

    Raw numbers are about 8 times. But then you have to consider the lifetime of the panels (1/2) and the transmission losses (1/2) and you'll end up with the space panel making perhaps 2 times as much power at any given time, and 1/2 over it's lifetime.

  36. The end of days approaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Earth is fairly closed loop system. We receive a set amount of energy from the sun, and a VERY small amount of energy from other sources.

    Adding a large amount of energy that was destined to speed it's way out into the cosmos, potentially causing a more distant planet to cool (or even heat, there's the odd chance that the solar wind hitting the ionosphere of one of the distant planets could cause an interesting cooling effect by stripping away upper atmosphere, but I digress) WILL have unforeseen effects, not limited to us causing one of the more distant planets to lose mass, and swing wildly out of control into our own.

    Messing with large balances of energy in a closed system is one thing, mixing systems is a whole different issue. (one that's ALMOST sure to lead to MASSIVE problems)

    1. Re:The end of days approaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine if we could harness the energy in extra apostrophes?

  37. Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sim City 2000 already thought of this idea in 1993 (ish)...

  38. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

    No argument from me. I was presenting the most favorable case (made a few years ago -- PV solar keeps dropping (and, I think, will continue to drop) and as I noted, cheaper solar cells favor ground based installations even more because you have to pay truly absurd amounts to lift any solar cell into orbit, many, many times the actual cost of the cell.

    I was equally generous in guesstimates of transmission efficiency (trying to make the case FOR as best I could) but yeah, even though "in principle" microwave power transmission can be as high as 90% efficient, I'd be rather surprised if it averages 50%.

    But if you are in the business, you fully understand all of this even better than I do. It is no longer a matter of if, but when, and it won't matter if power companies build large scale generating plants or not, because as prices creep down from $1/watt, amortization times (which are a function of local power costs and local insolation) decrease to where they range from being a no-brainer to a new home builder (buy this home for $10,000 more, but with free electricity for a lifetime included in the price) and a reasonable investment to an older home owner. They are JUST too expensive for me to really justify in NC right now, partly because electricity is so cheap here. And, note well, I've already bought some $20,000 of replacement high efficiency AC/furnaces for the house (with at least decadal amortization times) simply because they DID make long term sense. This of course actually increases my amortization time, because with R40 in the attic, low-E windows throughout, and high efficiency multi-level AC and natural gas units, my energy costs are already easily halved from what they were before with old hardware and cheap wood frame windows and R11 in the attic. Even if I dropped my energy costs to zero (which I can't do with natural gas for cooking, hot water, and heat) it would take me a solid decade to amortize a rooftop array capable of handling the AC and other electrical loads, neglecting maintenance.

    In California or Arizona, higher power costs, better insolation, less natural gas availability (maybe) it probably makes sense for everybody with the free capital already. By 2020, it will probably make good sense in NC where it is still marginal. By 2025, what will be the point? The entire lower 2/3 of the US will be installing solar with or without any sort of subsidy, at the level of individual homeowners even if the major power companies DON'T decide to investing in a few square kilometers of collectors per state. The square kilometers will accumulate a rooftop at a time either way.

    Then, I have a model for building a large-scale solar updraft generator that can probably kick even PV solar's butt, that will work ideally in comparatively arid states with sunny south-facing mountains. It has the further advantage of actually contributing to global cooling by directly transporting heat from the surface up to the upper troposphere, above the bulk of the greenhouse layer, where it can radiatively cool much more efficiently (although yeah, this is a drop in the proverbial bucket of incoming energy:-)

    None of this changes the conclusion -- putting solar cells in orbit to fuel the Earth is just plain stupid, however nifty or cool it appears to be at first glance. We'd be far better off putting the $100 billion directly into research into how to drop transmission costs (improve long distance transmission efficiencies) and/or store energy in high capacity long lifetime batteries (or other storage modalities, e.g. pumping water uphill during the day with a fraction of the solar to recover hydroelectric at night, or ditto with compressed air in giant underground caverns created with small nukes). Either one would be a game changer for solar, because a trivial fraction of the Saraha or the southwest US could supply 100% of the energy needs of the rest of the US or of Europe if we could either/both store it during the day and transmit it to the polar regions without a huge efficien

    --
    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
  39. Not again?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This comes up every 10-15 years.
    a) why not put the same solar cells on earth, rather than in space. You can deliver them by truck or train, instead of by rocket.
    b) you can tie into existing electrical grid delivery infrastructure. You don't have to have the cost and conversion efficiency from DC to microwaves and back. The most efficient microwave sources these days are in the 60% DC to RF conversion efficiency.
    c) you can buy a lot of energy storage (pumped hydro, thermal, etc.) for the cost of a rocket.
    d) it doesn't take a lot of geographical diversity to make ground based power pretty reliable. The desert areas have 350+ days of sun a year. Conventional power plants go offline more often than that
    e) if you need a big receiver array on the ground, what's the tradeoff if you use that same area for solar thermal or solar cells on the ground?

    WHy does this come up? Because space systems engineers like to find things that you can do in space. So of course you propose space based solutions. And it's good that you do, because this kind of thing needs to be revisited periodically. Technology does change, and it's worth spending a *little bit* of money to do it. To keep Mankins and similar folks fed, housed, and not on the street committing crimes doesn't cost a lot, and has beneficial side effects.

    For what it's worth, John Mankins is the guy who invented the "Technology Readiness Level" (TRL) scale.

    if you read the report on SPS-ALPHA
    http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/716070main_Mankins_2011_PhI_SPS_Alpha.pdf
    You'll find that it is full of lots of ideas, but not a lot of substance. It puts together the management concepts, and how you'd make decisions, etc. but doesn't directly address feasibility (left as future work).
    And, of course, it has lots of the latest trendy stuff: swarms of self organizing nano-satellite modules, etc.

  40. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

    "I was equally generous in guesstimates of transmission efficiency (trying to make the case FOR as best I could) but yeah, even though "in principle" microwave power transmission can be as high as 90% efficient, I'd be rather surprised if it averages 50%."

    Yeah, this one is murder. The transmitter is about 70% efficient, the receiver about 90, and modern inverters are about 95%. So .70 x .90 x .95 = 59%

    To all the kids reading this. LEARN F'ING MATH. It will save you from believing in all sorts of BS like this.

    "because as prices creep down from $1/watt"

    I put a dozen SolarWorld 230's on my garage in 2010. At that time the panels were $2.30 a watt, the Enphase M190's about $1 a watt, and the rest of the system probably cost another $1 because of a long wire run I had to pull.

    Due to changes in the local laws (Ontario FIT) we're looking at bringing SolarWorld back (great panels) as a premium brand. Most likely we'd stock the 275's, and sell them around 95 cents.

    Thats in THREE YEARS.

    Running the numbers, at current pricing PV in Toronto runs about 20 cents/kWh. That's pretty astonishing, considering that that's the flat price over 20 years. You see, our current price for power is about 15 cents, but over 20 years of inflation that takes you to about 25 cents. That's parity.

    I don't think anyone out there really sees this yet. PV has gone from something only the military and aerospace companies used to something that can power your house cheaper than the local power plant, and did that in less than a decade.

    All of this space stuff is bogus. Simply look over the list of participants. Not a single one of them comes from the solar world or the power world more broadly. Each and every one of them is a space guy. This isn't about power, it's about finding excuses to build rockets.

  41. Has everyone forgotten this?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GODRkYrFhO0

  42. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

    It is indeed finding and excuse to build rockets and space stations, which rarely make sense at $10,000/kg except for one-off research platforms and for communications.

    In NC electricity is a lot cheaper -- that's why I just can't make it work. OTOH we probably get a lot more sun than Toronto:-). But as you say, it keeps dropping. I was shopping in West Marine for boat stuff and took a moment to look at their 90 and 130 W polycrystalline panels -- for almost exactly $1/watt, with (boat scale) inverters included. There are also nice larger scale systems out there, but I still at best break even -- a few years after I will probably be dead -- at $1/watt installed, with mandated power buyback from the local utility to serve instead of local storage. By 2015, 2017, somewhere in there, I expect that it will cross the magic line, and when I have enough kids graduated from college and launched I might do it, if only because I'm a physicist and PV solar is so cool that it's worth it to me at anything on the high side of break even even if I don't live to get the full amortized payback. Somebody will, when they buy the house, and hopefully my heirs would recover at least some of the investment then.

    If I were building a new house, I'd probably build it in anyway, because who gives a damn about an extra $10-20K on the mortgage, which should get me at least a few KW on the roof at break even compared to the mortgage. $100/month on the mortgage vs $100/month for electricity -- it's a wash no matter what the amortization. Right now I pay $190/month for electricity, including all summer AC. It would be hard to recover that for the equivalent cost in a refinanced mortage, but it is at least getting close.

    And yeah, it would be so lovely if anybody would learn to do EVEN arithmetic, but hey, I teach physics at Duke to very bright students and THEY struggle with "Fermi estimates", scaling arguments, and yes, sometimes even arithmetic when it isn't a matter of plugging into a provided formula, and then there is the algebra...

    I'd point out that climate science in general suffers from this problem, especially when the lay population wants to play, but this is /. and if I did I would be excoriated, burned in effigy, and so on, because looking at the actual numbers is verboten when there are highly politicized summaries one can quote from instead.

    rgb

    --
    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
  43. Isaac Asimov by MXB2001 · · Score: 1

    Isaac Asimov

    Odd, I'm the first to comment that he wrote a story about exactly this. I'm not sure he originated the idea or was inspired by a scientific article but it seemed noteworthy.

    You ./ers do _know_ who I'm talking about or am I the only one here not in his teens?

    --
    01/01/01
    1. Re:Isaac Asimov by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Isaac Asimov

      Odd, I'm the first to comment that he wrote a story about exactly this. I'm not sure he originated the idea or was inspired by a scientific article but it seemed noteworthy.

      You ./ers do _know_ who I'm talking about or am I the only one here not in his teens?

      First thing I thought of as well. It's the story "Reason", found in I, Robot , btw.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  44. What about flairs? by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't a good walloping mass ejection from the sun just fry an orbital array? I'm sire if its big enough it would fry a ground based system too, but there's a huge amount of difference between what goes blasting through space and what hits the ground....

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  45. Bad idea by Hamsterdan · · Score: 2

    Last time I did something similar in Simcity, my city got attacked by aliens...

    --
    I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  46. This is way off topic by zippthorne · · Score: 2

    This is way off topic, but I'll bite anyway.

    The text of the second amendment is thus:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    The first clause is an explanation for the second, and the amendment clearly places a limit on the power of the federal government (later amendments and rulings mean that this also affects the states). And that limit is that congress does not have the power to infringe the right of the people to own and carry weapons.

    It does not say what kind of weapons. It does not grant congress a "reasonableness" pass, to allow them to regulate particularly dangerous or unpopular weapons. A modern reading could imply that the explanatory clause could be used to imply that congress may be able to pass some kind of perfunctory regulation, as long as that regulation does not infringe on the people's ability to keep and bear those arms. Perhaps through a mandatory firearm safety course or basic military training course for all citizens.

    However, even that much doesn't really fly in the face of the ninth and tenth amendments. Especially the tenth.

    What many of the "reasonable gun control" people (and certainly not all by a long shot) seem to fail to recognize is that while reasonable gun control may be desirable, especially in light of the far more destructive and portable weapons available today compared to the founders' day, the price doing it without having a constitutional amendment specifically enabling congress to act is the watering down of the constitution as a compact with the people.

    What else can we conveniently interpret away or ignore that allows congress more power, and more importantly strips power away from the ostensibly consenting governed?

    If you want gun control to quell your fears, it's certainly not an unreasonable goal, but the safest way to seek it is not to demand immediate action in immediate aftermath of each tragedy, but to demand the thoughtful debate of the constitutional amendment process. Then we can decide as a nation what level of risk we're really willing to live with, balanced against what powers we really want to allow the government to have.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  47. Challenge the Hellmaker anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dreamt up in 1976 before most of you were born

    http://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Hellmaker-Walt-Richmond/dp/044110150X/

  48. Hybrid solution by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

    Place the solar cells on the ground, focus extra light on them with space based mirrors.
    Thin metallized plastic foil mirrors are light and can be made much larger than cells for same payload weight.
    Unfortunately it can also be used as space weapon.

  49. Two words why this is a bad thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for us to ever depend on:

    Carrington Event

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

  50. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by unkiereamus · · Score: 1

    This isn't about power, it's about finding excuses to build rockets.

    Not quite.

    This is about pushing the boundaries of what we can do. This is about shooting so high we're staring into the sun.

    There was no reason for us to go to the moon. In and of itself, it accomplished nothing to improve the lot of humanity, but it was a hell of a thing. It made people dream, it inspired an untold amount of people to go into STEM fields, and on a more direct note, it advanced electronics tremendously.

    As a race, we need to do big, audacious things. This is one of them, It should be done. It's not as big a thing as going to the Moon, but it's bigger than getting a cup of coffee.

    I'm willing to bet that even if it is just as much a flop as you think it will be, (And you seem to know what you're on about, so I'm willing to concede that if it were done with the current technology, you're probably right.), inside of 20 years, it'll pay for itself in many ways, the least of which might be the power beamed back down to Earth.

    --
    I needed a sig so people would know who I am, but I was too drunk to make something witty, so you get this instead.
  51. why solar and not run a wire... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why solar and not run a wire into the ionosphere? they've done it before in a satellite test... and it generated massive energy. why solar?? if they have the place/technology to beam the resultant energy (microwave to base station) without fear of hurting anyone... I don't see why they wouldn't go for max power

  52. Oh Dear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This SBSP 'proposal' is very embarrassing.

    Please delete the file and forget all posts and opinions therein.

  53. A compromise between ground-level and orbit by PapayaSF · · Score: 1

    The StratoSolar concept uses a buoyant platform to raise PV cells to 20km altitude. That way they get more light, are above the weather, and operate at higher efficiency due to the cold.

    --
    Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
  54. Global warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you capture solar energy that was not destined to enter the Earth, and you send it to Earth, then it is contributing to global warming.

  55. Re:Or maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This might be about more than just cost. Don't know if cost will be competitive or not. It does have the advantage that power will be available 24/7 and clouds do not impede the collection of solar energy. These low intensity radio waves will go through cloud cover. So it would become an available all the time reliable source of electricity.

  56. Not a new idea - it the engineering thats needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Havent they been talking about this for 30 years already ???

    Yes Technology has moved forward, but it just takes one thing impractical to make the full thing not work (engineering is a downer like that)

    Conversion of the energy for transmission (I assume they got something with low loss thru atmosphere) and then conversion into electricity on the recieving end -- the classic problems (secondary might be if the reception places are remote, then transmission loss over power lines might be added ontop - they sometimes are significant)

    Secondarily might be green-freeak issues (irridating ground so some roach becomes 'endangered or somesuch) - but then china or russia might have no problems (but then you will have to compete with power industries largely unhindered by green-freak issues alreadyy)

    Theres is the fun (for space based machinery) of dissapating waste heat in a vacuum which adds ALOT of extra overhead and we ARE talking about a substantial amount of power passing thru such a rig. (waste of the conversion process which even when quite high leaves the rest which needs to be handled)

  57. Re:It's all good until (Cost Benefit Analysis) by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

    "As a race, we need to do big, audacious things"

    I'm all for it.

    "This is one of them, It should be done"

    If you're looking for big audacious things to do, how about going to Mars? It would cost about the same, or less, have infinitely more scientific value, increase rocketry much more than a GEO launch, and help avoid a species-ending event. SPSs, on the other hand, simply suck up money and return nothing.

    Given the possible universe of "cool things to do", why would we pick this particular brain dead one?

  58. Really dangerous potential! by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    Satellites are reliable but every once on a while the do have problems including orientation. That beam would be deadly Also, space is not clean. Test panels come back looking like they'd been sandblasted after a few years. Then there's the CME. I'd think this thing would be more vulnerable to CMEs than many other satellites.

  59. Ever thought about this ? by portal2 · · Score: 1

    Anyone ever thought about a solar tower plant ? With mirrors reflecting the sun towards a tower where natrium or some other substance is heated up to hundreds of degrees celcius and then drives a turbine to generate electricity. Clean power, the ideal industry for counties like Spain, Greece or Mexico to become an energy supplier for surrounding countries.

  60. don't those guys watch bad SyFy movies? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

    You just know that it will just be a short time before terrorists hijack the controls for directing the beam and Stephen Baldwin has to save us.

    --
    Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.