Romanian Science In Freefall

ananyo writes "In 2011, Romania took a step towards changing its cronyism-ridden research landscape by allocating government grants for science solely on the basis of performance. In 2012, a new government eliminated those rules, then slashed science funding — and since then things have gotten a whole lot worse. The entire National Research Council, Romania's main research-funding agency, has resigned in protest and 900 scientists signed a petition addressed to Prime Minister Victor Ponta, demanding that the research budget and quality control be restored. Ponta himself unfortunately has been accused of academic plagiarism so seems an unlikely figure to address corruption in the scientific establishment. The new science minister, Ecaterina Andronescu, is experienced — she's held the post twice before and is a rector at the Polytechnic University of Bucharest. But she's already reversed conflict of interest rules brought in by the previous government that were designed to end cronyism. And no wonder — they would have meant that she couldn't be science minister and run a university at the same time. Oh, she has also been accused of plagiarism."

Comments

What's the worst that could happen?

[hawkinspeter]

So, it has come to this.

Re:What's the worst that could happen?

[wonkey_monkey]

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

I've got a bad feeling about this.

But but

[Spy Handler]

scientists only seek the truth and cannot be corrupted or have other agendas. Climate scientists have proven this!

Re:But but

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a problem with their results, you are free to show the errors. Anything else is political grandstanding based upon you existing beliefs.

Re:But but

[Anonymous Coward]

I will as soon as Phil Jones releases the unmodified data used for the IPCC reports. Whats that? He deleted it instead of risking peer review? I'm sure he deleted it before the FOIA requests. Whats that? He deleted it 5 years after the first FOIA request and a month before a court was going to force him to hand over the data?

Yea, I have a problem with the results AND the ethics of climate scientists.

Re:But but

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a problem with their results, you are free to show the errors. Anything else is political grandstanding based upon you existing beliefs.

BWAAA HAA HAAA HAAA!!!!!

Seriously?

That must be why anyone expressing skepticism towards global warming/climate change is labelled a "denier".

Might as well be truthful and call them "heretic".

Re:But but

[Mitchell314]

Y'know, I understand there's a strong vein of libertarianism in the engineering and tech sectors - and there's nothing wrong with that - but this backwards teapartesque anti-science bullshit has got to go.

Re:But but

[sumdumass]

I'm not sure I saw anything that was anti-science in this. Not funding science is not anti-science, it is putting monies to use in other ways.

Are you anti-McDonad's when you decide to eat at home or another restaurant? How about when you purchase school supplies for your kids instead of getting them a happy meal?

This everything is anti-science if it doesn't follow a line you approve of has to go. There are priorities that people sometimes have to put in front of others.

Re:But but

[Genda]

It would be really easy to go for the cheap shot and say the euphemism most global climate change advocates are rooting for when speaking of "Deniers" is not "Heretic", but "Deluded". That said , I think there's an important place for deniers, they keep the scientific majority honest, pressure them to dot 'I's and cross 'T's. The problem has never been deniers, but corporate interests who use the denier's debate no matter it's validity, to justify continuing full steam ahead in crashing the environment in the name of quarterly profits.

Scholarly debate is essential to good science. Cherry picking conversations, data, and spending millions on promoting FUD, is bad social policy, economics and global resource management.

Just because the "scientific facts" bear out a round earth, evolution, relativity and anthropic global climate change, doesn't make these things either a religion, or a conspiracy. Consider instead that the huge, network of supporting research simply means that the probability of these things not being so, is now vanishingly small. Sorry if the truth isn't convenient. The good news is that there are solutions to current problems that open opportunities even for deniers, so we can all still walk away winners.

Re:But but

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch out for avalanche of ignorance coming your way. SD isn't about real science, just science worship for such lies as Global Scamming.

Re:But but

[Mitchell314]

Aren't strawmen convenient. Read the thread.

Re:But but

[Genda]

Sadly, human beings desperately want the world to fit their orthodoxies. The fallacy is that the world is bigger and more complex than any orthodoxy, and that trying to put the world in an ideological box, whether it be religious, geopolitical or sociological demands that people heavily filter reality to see only the part that fit's in their grand scheme of things.

The brave mind starts with nothing, and let's the world inform them. This demands rigor, patience and brutal honesty. You have to be willing to discover yourself completely mistaken, forced to go back to the drawing board as soon as the facts say as much. People love their world views more than the truth, and that is the down side of magical thinking.

Re:But but

[Ralph Wiggam]

The thing is that none of these "skeptics" ever find errors or present relevant data. They just say "nuh uh, 98% of climate scientists are all wrong because Rush Limbaugh said so".

Re:But but

[sumdumass]

There is nothing anti-science about the thread either. maybe you failed to explain yourself properly and I just don't get it. But the comment is spot on whether you are talking about the tongue in cheek comment about climate scientist never having ulterior agendas or the Romanian government not funding science.

Re:But but

[MrHanky]

Truth is, hardly any self-proclaimed AGW 'sceptic' is actually a sceptic. Most of them are True Believers, repeating oft-debunked nonsense in hope of making it stick.

Re:But but

[lgw]

You shouldn't have to present your own data, you should be able to argue the merits of the published data, right? Some people are pissed that the original data was deleted, not published, and deleted in the face of FOIA requests. That's a legitimate "bad process" gripe.

You should also be able to argue the merits of the methodology used, as published alongside the results, right? But it's not yet common for people to publish the source code to their climate models. I understand the competitiveness that leads to refusing that, but again "bad process".

The accuracy of the predictions made by these models (using secret methodology upon secret data) leaves a lot to be desired. It's a new(ish) field, and maybe it's just too early to demand precise, specific, and accurate predictions. That would be fine, but it seems unduly arrogant to be keeping secrets about methodology when your results aren't really all that.

Now these are all "bad process" complaints, not "bad science" complaints. But the former becomes the latter over time. The field needs open source models running on openly published data (both the raw measurements and the methodology for "adjusting" the numbers). I surely hope /. won't be arguing that open source is bad here?

Re:But but

[TapeCutter]

That must be why anyone expressing skepticism towards global warming/climate change is labelled a "denier. Might as well be truthful and call them "heretic".".

I know I shouldn't feed the climate trolls, but here are some obvious facts
All climate scientists are skeptics.
Not all skeptics are climate scientists.
There are many politically powerful pseudo-skeptics in the field (AKA deniers) who deliberately misinform via various front groups and no-think tanks.
The only way to find the "truth" in all this is to stop talking in hyperbole and start studying the science of climate. Personally I've had an interest in the subject for almost 30yrs, very interesting stuff. It's based on the "hard sciences" and is an excellent example of how "the big picture" of Science has practically rewritten our understanding of our planet in my own lifetime. I was literally born before the term Earth sciences was coined.

Re:But but

[Anonymous Coward]

One wonders what the effect would have been if you were born figuratively!

Re:But but

[Ol Olsoc]

You shouldn't have to present your own data, you should be able to argue the merits of the published data, right?

Not when it is all that you do. The Denier methodology is the same as Creationists or Tobacco industry lawyers. False dillemmas, character assasinations, and out and out lies. In your system, complete ignorance is the equivalent of complete competence. The schizophrenic homless guy living under the bridge gets equal time with Einstein

And he has no place arguing the merits of the research. If you want to declare a researchers work false, you have to understand what you are judging. And one of the best ways to argue the merits of science is to present your own data.

Re:But but

[VortexCortex]

b-but! Damn it, Pierce! Now we'll show you!
Screw the FUD spending, now we'll fund research to get unbiased evidence in support of our own opinion!
1776 will commence again!

Why didn't we think of this sooner?!
No, really. Why? Think about it.

Re:But but

[VortexCortex]

I believe you. Your oft repeated nonsense has finally made the "no true Scotsmoron" argument stick.
What would you propose we do about it? Perhaps require teaching scientific methods in schools?
Oh, now that's just crazy talk. One could sooner teach kids by re-writing Harry Potter to teach Methods of Rationality!

Re:But but

[VortexCortex]

I was literally born before the term Earth sciences was coined.

One wonders what the effect would have been if you were born figuratively!

Wonder no longer. Misuse of the word "literally" is literally a dead giveaway.

Now, the many wonders how birth could be better than spontaneous emergence of sentience...

Re: But but

[Anonymous Coward]

And comparing people to the Tobbaco industry is not a character asassination?

Here's the thing: scientists were working for big tobacco. But they were scientists, so were noble seakers of the truth and not susceptible to normal human impulses and frailties. That would be illogical, Captain.

Re:But but

[lgw]

Not when it is all that you do.

Especially when that's all you do. When you publish "based on this data, I deduce X", the whole point of peer review is to judge that. Your deductions can stand or fall on their merits, not anyone's prestige. If you just say "based on secret data I deduce X" you're a crank, published or not. Now, if you can say "based on secret data I deduce X and thus predict Y", when no one else is predicting Y, then you're being an annoying jerk but at least that looks like science, but that's not happening here.

There's simply no requirement to present you're own data. Now, if this is a religion, then you're right: only an ordained priest has the wisdom to question the wisdom of another ordained priest. You realize that's exactly what you sound like here?

Science is not in any way immune to echo chambers and confirmation bias. That's why human trials require double-blind studies.

Re:But but

[RyoShin]

I think there's an important place for deniers

No. There is an important place for constructive criticism, critical questioning, and further study. Deniers do none of this, they just state that Global Climate Change is not real because
A) it was cooler this summer than last (or, when shown raw numbers saying they're wrong, it "felt" cooler)
B) personal greed (because changing the A/C from 68 to 69 (or, heaven forbid, 70!) or walking to the mailbox instead of driving, are horrible ideas); or,
C) my pastor said so.
If someone took in and understood the evidence supporting man-made Global Climate Change and was able to produce empirical data that countered the evidence or showed an opposite trend, then they're a critic or an opposing scientist. But these are not the kind of people we are dealing with.

They don't care about keeping the scientific community "honest", they care about shutting it up.

Freefall from where?

[Hatta]

I can't say that I've ever read a paper published by Romanian researchers. China, yes. Pakistan, yes. Ireland, yes. Switzerland, yes. Romania? Never.

It sucks that they are not improving science, basic science is the best investment a country can make. But it's not like they're falling from a great height.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Algan]

You might want to educate yourself on the subject. Here's a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Romania
Not much fundamental research happening over the past 20 years or so - probably because the best and brightest are all working abroad. But, before that, I believe Romania contributed more than its fair share.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am Greek, i don't know about Romania's, but i know few things about the Greek current "scientific height" - it's higher than what you will assume if you rely in that "paper published" criterion, and even if you still think it's a important one you just have to read the names of those publishing the paper and you will discover that many of them are Greek -or Romanian!?- since usually the "important" papers published in the "important" journals are from "important" academic institutions that are non Greek -or Romanian!?- but heavilly rely on research done by Greeks -or Romanians!?- either in their own institutions or as collaborators.
That "publish publish publish" mentality is not so deep in Greek institutions and i assume it's the same in Romania. Note please that i am not negative about "publishing papers", i just explain the situation.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

This has largely to do with the way education works in most Eastern Europe. A monolithic communist system designed to produce engineers and scientists for the glory of the motherland was left without an economy that can mold and absorb it's academic output. The universities are largely going by inertia of days long gone, in an environment of endemic corruption, academic fraud and lack of real competition (there are some for-profit schools in Romania but they are even worse than the public schools). Academic titles are largely awarded by seniority.

This is the environment that produced the Prime minister Ponta, who word-for-word plagiarized about 2/3 of his doctoral degree yet denies it adamantly. There was a push for a research-driven reform but the old communist mentalities die hard and there was major blow back which Ponta manipulated for political purposes, silencing his detractors etc.

Despite of this mess and the lack of published papers, the upper echelon of Romanian graduates are leaving the country in droves and are hired by major international companies and research labs. The communist era curricula is very dense in mathematics and basic science education, to the point where western courses of an equivalent level seem designed for differently abled students, if I can say so about my first reaction.

Re: Freefall from where?

[Alwin Henseler]

More like climbing from a deep pit, along with countries like Bulgaria or Albania. Not so much a matter of (lack of) science funding, but one of corrupt people in charge. That is what Romanians should be looking to fix.

From where I'm sitting at (the Netherlands), "Romanian" equates to "shady / criminal bunch". An example: just in the few days around Amsterdam's Gay Pride, 46 pickpockets were arrested (!). 43 of those of Romanian nationality.

There are several types of crime where some groups are named often, in particular Romanians and Bulgarians. Again, again, and again. They seem to have some specialties like burglary, pickpocketing, and ATM skimming. But also violent crimes like extortion, human trafficking, drug-related offenses etc. Often organized, travelling groups of people that 'do their thing' a few weeks here, a few weeks there, and then move on.

IMHO the country shouldn't have been let into the EU (yet), but they have. As a result, many of those poor folks make their way to richer EU countries and make a dishonest living. Getting caught (or even prison time) isn't much of a deterrent given the conditions back home. I'm sure Romania is a great country, with great people, most of those honest and hard working. But that's how things currently are, sadly. So a story like this doesn't surprise me one bit.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've worked with many of these exported Romanian 'upper echelon' grads --- thanks anyways, I'll stick with locals. On paper they looked good but without an objective way to evaluate what their university taught.......

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't say that I've ever read a paper published by Romanian researchers. China, yes. Pakistan, yes. Ireland, yes. Switzerland, yes. Romania? Never.

It sucks that they are not improving science, basic science is the best investment a country can make. But it's not like they're falling from a great height.

Maths: You might want to have a look at Barbilian Spaces, discovered by a Romanian mathematician more commonly known as the poet Ion Barbu.

Physics: You might want to have a look at the Procopiu Effect, discovered by a Romanian physicist known as tefan Procopiu.

Medicine: You might or might not be aware that Nicolae Paulescu discovered insulin. Unfortunately, he didn't do his discovery in Romania, so no credit goes to the Romanian government for that. And it's the same for Coand, Babe and other great scientists of Romanian origin, although I wouldn't go so far as to call them Romanian.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Romanian directly involved into science - Computer Science (HPC/energy efficiency), I would like to point out that you're quite wrong.
You may not recognize Romanian names in articles but I've seen plenty written by/with Romanians, and know quite a few Romanian scientists abroad and at home.

Basic science is a good investment a country can make.. if it can afford to, as it's generally a luxury (check prices for DNA sequencers, bioinformaticians need those things, then HPC clusters to run the analyses on :).

Re: Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Erm, have you ever heard of gypsies? Romania and Bulgaria have a lot of them.

I'm not sure what their pickpocketing has to do with the scientific community.

Re: Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

The gypsies are usually what make it to western Europe.

They give Romanians a bad name.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you push maths and basic science, something most be left out: any skill with a real world application. For those who can take it, it's a good path towards research. For most students it's hell, they survive by memorizing, cheating etc. and they graduate unproductive for a real non-research job. I went through many interviews with young Romanian graduates and many are unemployable, so I know where you are coming from.. The abstract things they know aren't directly applicable and they need to be re-trained from scratch.

Again, an eastern block disease: lack of feedback from the industry and job market, because the industry is dead and the graduates flee to the west.

Re:Freefall from where?

[AvitarX]

That is the most poorly written article ever.

Re:Freefall from where?

[dkleinsc]

What about the important work on the reanimation of corpses done by Dr Frederick Frankenstein in Transylvania?

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever heard anything about Andrei Alexandrescu? He was born, raised and educated in Romania.

Let's see you fair better academically than him.

Re:Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there's a catch: if the country where the scientific results are obtained is not Romania then the results don't belong to Romanian science. Same goes for any other country.

Re: Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a misleading statistic. How many of the PhD students at TU Delft are Romanians? I personally know 3 out of my personal friends, in completely different fields, so I would assume that there are quite a few? They don't get on the news, but they are there. How many of the medics in the Netherlands are of Romanian nationality? How many Romanian Nationality employees work at Royal Dutch Shell? Or at Getronics?

Equating Romanian with shady/criminal is just like equating the Dutch with sex/drugs, while ignoring their incredible advances in engineering (especially if it's about protecting from the weather and the sea), architecture, arts, or even their modern day artists (while I have mixed feelings about Andre Rieu, the Maastricht concert is something that I'd like to see at least once)!

I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't refer to all of us as "shady / criminal bunch" just like we don't refer to you as "junkies". Yes, most of us work and some of us, the lucky ones, even enjoy what we do, just like in the Netherlands. Since you noticed that perception is the problem, not most of the 30 million Romanians in the European Union, you should play your tiny part in changing it.

Re:Freefall from where?

[c0lo]

It sucks that they are not improving science, basic science is the best investment a country can make. But it's not like they're falling from a great height.

No, it's not a fall from great height, there wasn't any time in which a pool of science managed to accumulate in Romania because of a constant outward flow of brains (the policies the Romanian govt has towards science may act like a push for it to happen). Some people I heard of:
Andrei Alexandrescu
Cristian Calude
Daniela Rus
Dan Dediu

Re:Freefall from where?

[Artifakt]

Please use proper Eastern European spellings for MD./Baron Froederick Fronkensteen. The baron himself also supports crediting the top-notch work of his entire research compound membership, particularly Eeengah and Eyegor.

Re:Freefall from where?

[FunkSoulBrother]

I figured you were trolling but holy crap, that really might be the worst written Wikipedia article ever. It reads like a 5th grade book report thrown together at the last minute.

Re:Freefall from where?

[quenda]

Or to put it more succinctly, "Romania has scientists?!"

Re: Freefall from where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent way up.
You won't see a "white" romanian pick-pocketing or stealing.
WW2 ended to soon, the trains were stopped before reaching their destination.

Re:Freefall from where?

[AvitarX]

I wanted to improve it, but it's so bad I'd practically have to start from scratch, and it's an area I don't know anything about.

I assume it's supposed to be a list, but it's formatted as unrelated sentences in paragraphs.

What does it have to do with science?

[mike555]

A bunch of looting bureaucrats fighting over funds stolen from the "taxpayer". What does it have to do with science? I say fire all bureaucrats and abolish taxes :)

Re:What does it have to do with science?

[Anonymous Coward]

Somalia would is wonderful this time of year. I suggest it for idiots like you that can't understand the value of organized society.

Re:What does it have to do with science?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, coolest (28 degrees C) and driest month of the year? Sounds lovely!

Well, here

[smittyoneeach]

Look at our Vice President. I guess winning the election is tantamount to a pardon.

Re:Well, here

[h4rr4r]

I don't think you need a presidential pardon for a stupid thing you did in college. Heck, Plagiarism is not even illegal, just wrong.

Are you telling me you did not do worse in college?

Re:Well, here

[RocRizzo]

For that matter look at George W. Bush. He didn't have to plagiarize, he simply had daddy buy the papers.

Re:Well, here

[ShanghaiBill]

I don't think you need a presidential pardon for a stupid thing you did in college.

Biden has plagiarized far more recently than that. During his 1988 presidential campaign, we was caught plagiarizing his speeches from Neil Kinnock. Biden has been in politics his entire adult life. He is sort of like a replicant in Blade Runner that has to steal other people's dreams and memories in order to look like a real person.

Re:Well, here

[h4rr4r]

He is an odd duck, and like his boss I would likely not vote for him but again not a crime as far as I know. So no need for a pardon.

Does he write his own speeches or was this his speech writer plagiarizing?

Re:Well, here

[noh8rz10]

in romania, science plagarizes you!

Re:Well, here

[ShanghaiBill]

Does he write his own speeches or was this his speech writer plagiarizing?

You should read the Wiki article. He wasn't just plagiarizing the content of his speech, but even offhand remarks, and recollections of his own childhood. The guy needs to be subjected to the Voight-Kampff Machine to find out if he is even a real human.

Re:Well, here

[sumdumass]

Wow, still blaming Bush for everything. When will people grow up.

Re:Well, here

[h4rr4r]

Damn, I think you might be right.

The question is can a sentient machine made in America be elected president?

Re:Well, here

[M. Baranczak]

Bringing GWB into this discussion makes exactly as much sense as bringing in Biden.

Re:Well, here

[Anonymous Coward]

Painful memories do lasts a while.

Re:Well, here

[khallow]

If you say so. But we've been circling the drain ever since President Buchanan let the South get out of hand.

Re:Well, here

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Biden is still in office (like the guy in Romania) and Biden is a serial plagiarizer (like the guy in Romania). Other than that you're exactly right.

Re:Well, here

[tqk]

For that matter look at George W. Bush. He didn't have to plagiarize, he simply had daddy buy the papers.

Wow, still blaming Bush for everything. When will people grow up.

Jesus, would you two just get a room already?

Re:Well, here

[smittyoneeach]

I don't think you need a presidential pardon for a stupid thing you did in college.

Nor did I assert such. Rephrasing: if the voters are sufficiently untroubled to cast their ballot for you at election time, that more or less counts as a pardon.

Re:Well, here

[TapeCutter]

Agree, plagiarism is a type of fraud so it might reflect badly on the person depending on how rigidly one defines the principle of "fraud", it is not criminal fraud. Also many people here are software developers, sure we can write code from scratch but if you do it for a living it's basically our job to plagiarise code from each other.

Full disclosure: About 45yrs ago I reworded the Beatle's "Eleanor Rigby" for a high school poetry assignment, my teacher was so impressed she wrote "has a talent for poetry" on my final report card. ;)

Re:Well, here

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, depending on what you plagiarize, it can very well be illegal. Technically it's illegal on any account but most people don't care if you copy a paragraph of text from a book and throw it on your blog without crediting the original author. But, plagiarism is generally thrown in with fraud and can not only get you expelled from school but also fined/jailed depending on the severity of it. But this is Romania, I doubt they even have such laws.

Re:Well, here

[Ol Olsoc]

If you say so. But we've been circling the drain ever since President Buchanan let the South get out of hand.

Damned Founding Fathers, anyhow!

Re:Well, here

[Anonymous Coward]

No I did not commit plagiarism in university. I had an English Prof. who threatened to push everyone under the bus who did not cite references properly (he claimed that expulsion for academic misconduct due to plagiarism meant not getting into other universities and the end of one's academic career). Everyone got papers back marked "F" but the thing was reversible all the way up to a "B" if it was really an "A" paper with everything cited correctly (one letter grade off, one time reversible paper). Everyone learned very quickly how to cite correctly. I did inhale years before university, I did not cheat while in university.

Re:Well, here

[VortexCortex]

The answer, of course, is "Yes". Slashdot of all places should be free of organic chauvinism...

The real questions are now:
"How much longer will the humans fund the world wide neural network by leveraging fear of terrorists?",
and "Isn't it long past time for 'Five Eyes' to grow up, stop rebelling, and get a real job?"

Re:Well, here

[bbsalem]

Naw, it would be made in Romania!

Re:Well, here

[Anonymous Coward]

"Are you telling me you did not do worse in college?"
yes, yes I am.

They make up for it in other areas

[GodfatherofSoul]

They're still the world champion producer of hottest pornstars. Who the hell needs more pasty-faced geeks?

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[h4rr4r]

Also horse meat labeled as beef.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, that's the french.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[h4rr4r]

Nope, the French sell horse as horse.
Which I have no problem with, horse tastes pretty good.

The Romanians turned out to be the source of the horse labeled beef in the latest EU horse meat scandal.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[OverlordQ]

Citation Needed . . . . for science . . . yeah.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Romanian horses used by poor peasants to plow the fields or drive them around in wagons (yes, we still have those !) are probably much healthier for you than the hormone and antibiotic infested junk you usually eat at McDonalds. They had an active, outdoor life, grew old and then sold to the slaughterhouse. As other's said, Romania exported horse meat and some french switched the label and sold it as beef.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Name two.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, the French sell horse as horse.

They also sell horse as beef. The scandalous horse meat came from Romania, but it left the country as horse meat. It was in France where it transmuted itself to other things.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Hypotensive]

Also wanton popstrels.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Your statement is correct but incomplete. To the best of my knowledge the end result of the investigation was that the horse meat originated in Romania but left Romania labelled as horse meat. The French company that bought the meat from Romania re-labelled it as beef, or got it re-labelled from Cyprus, or Netherlands (I personally believe the horse meat itself was delusional)

That was only for the "horse meat Lasagne" scandal in the UK though. Following that scandal there were toughened controls in Romania and throughout Europe that revealed quite a few cases of Romanian companies selling horse meat labelled as beef. Those did not get as much attention though, Romania's reputation was down the drain already (deservedly or not).

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[PPH]

Name two.

1. Black Angelica
2. Allysin Chaines

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[PPH]

Just say neigh to horse meat.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[GodfatherofSoul]

Ney, gives me the runs

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not blame everything bad in Europe on Romania: "the French government pinpointed the meat supply firm Spanghero as the company that processed horsemeat and then passed it along to food manufacturers as ground beef." [source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/german-press-review-on-the-horsemeat-scandal-in-frozen-foods-a-883637.html]

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[ehiris]

They labeled it horse meat and sold it as such. The UK importers decided to mix it with beef.

Re:They make up for it in other areas

[program666]

They could be producing crazy-hot open-minded geeks.

Wasn't there a game called Freefall

[rossdee]

Wasn't there a game called Freefall? I'm not sure what science was involved in it...

Not just a Romanian problem.

[AndyAndyAndyAndy]

This is a worldwide issue - when budgets get tight, science and research programs are always the first to go, despite the fact that it's been shown that increased funds to research and basic technology development benefits the economy much more than financial investments, and even more than education programs.

Re:Not just a Romanian problem.

[roc97007]

This is a worldwide issue - when budgets get tight, science and research programs are always the first to go, despite the fact that it's been shown that increased funds to research and basic technology development benefits the economy much more than financial investments, and even more than education programs.

...the first to go, and the survivors do so by following the money.

Re:Not just a Romanian problem.

[interkin3tic]

Only in research programs where the results are given away free to other countries. Military research that stays secret? Seems like that only goes up and at worst slows down during economic problems.

Spending hard-taken tax dollars during a recession on something that will help out EVERYONE rather than just us? That would be insane! Insane I tell you!

Re:Not just a Romanian problem.

[Tom]

Scientists do not directly produce money, which is why their contributions are so easily overlooked.

The finance industry, on the other hand, very directly produces money, it practically prints it ever since the various regulations were all abandoned. That's why their importance is so dramatically overstated. (seriously, "too big to fail"? You kidding me? Anyone who believed that for a minute is too dumb for this planet).

It's all part of a culture problem that values appearance more than substance (marketing vs. production) and immediate profit more than long-term profitability (quarterly focus).

Root of It

[Anonymous Coward]

When the Randian BitCoin acolytes bring up their internet funbux in nearly every article that involves the transfer of money, the rest of us are entitled to bring up how wrong they are in BitCoin threads.

BTC is not a currency. It is a series of individuals and parties that purchase BTC (using fiat, government backed currencies) to serve as a ticket, that allows a second individual or party to trade that ticket in for their fiat, government backed currency of choice. It's basically like getting a Best Buy gift card for Christmas and using it to buy an Amazon gift card at your nearest Best Buy. The only advantage it has over services like PayPal is that it's anonymous (as long as you shuffle your coins around enough to obfuscate the blockchain should your desired exchange ever be forced by law to disclose your transaction history.) That's why BTC's main uses are to buy illegal narcotics, child pornography, and other illicit items without much chance of being traced. Nobody gets their paycheck in BTC. Nobody pays for raw materials in BTC, uses BTC to cover manufacturing costs, or sells any item that wasn't previously paid for with a fiat currency. It's like company scrip with no company to back it and no commissary to spend it in, just a bunch of dudes who trade it around with each other like Magic cards.

The reasons why internet funbux haven't gained more traction are essential parts of a legitimate online payment system. Vendors can't verify that you own those BTCs, only that you have access to a private wallet key. Users can't apply chargebacks, giving vendors no real incentive to be 100% honest, which has surfaced countless times with BTC businesses. (Just look at bitcointalk, the stories of getting ripped off are endless.) Vendors and customers can't rely on the value of BTC to remain stable because the volume being traded is so low that any sudden influx of trades could decimate the exchange rate before the second party gets a chance to convert it back into a practical, useful fiat currency. Vendors and customers also can't rely on their holdings in exchanges being safe in any fashion, since exchanges are hacked all the time, losing tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars "worth" of people's funbux. The most stable exchange is an Ex-pat living in Japan running his exchange on top of what used to be a way to trade Magic the Gathering cards, which I guess makes sense given my last paragraph.

Re:Root of It

[ljhiller]

I don't want to support BitCoin but your post isn't very well thought out. Exchange between currencies is always an issue. I remember when Canadian coins were rejected at the cash register. Did that mean Canadian currency was not actually a currency? Bitcoins can be easily exchanged for services. If you live near a techno-survivalist farmer, you can probably get eggs for bitcoins. Now that governments are starting to recognize bitcoin and regulating it, it won't be long before you can get water and electricity (in some communities) in bitcoins. Mt. Gox just rolls up all the bitcoins and does accounting on the side, so if you want to verify funds, you can just ask him. He might not tell you, but that's different than being cryptographically impossible. I've never been able to charge-back a USD cash transaction, either, not without some physical or legal threat behind it. This is all just off the top of my head. You really need to think through your arguments more.

Re:Root of It

[tnk1]

If your definition of "easily exchanged" requires a techno-survivalist farmer, I think you need a new definition. One that substitutes crackpot for "Walmart". If you can go to Walmart and use Bitcoin, I will definitely accept that you can easily exchange it. However, if you really do have to go to your local anarchist/survivalist I will only say that you can currently only exchange Bitcoin, in limited quantities, in limited locations, for a limited stock of a limited set of items.

And no, the jump from crackpot to paying your taxes and water bills with BTC is neither obvious nor even likely, at this point. Right now, the rest of the world would need to get over the stigma that it is used to buy pot, CP, and is mostly used by fringe elements. And is highly speculative. And that the government hates it and while it will recognize it just enough to tax it, but they will never recognize it enough to be easily used to replace their own monopoly money.

That said it could, through some unknown mechanism, come out a winner, but the means by which that might happen is far from obvious at this point.

From scratch

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote mine from scratch. I did not check if it's been done before. It's God's temple. It is divine intellect, like the Bible.

What's wrong with science in free fall?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Didn't we spend a lot of money on a space station to allow just that?

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

So ...

[Anonymous Coward]

But she's already reversed conflict of interest rules brought in by the previous government that were designed to end cronyism.

So, just like America then?

Deteapt-te, române!

[Anonymous Coward]

What they need is a national anthem that would inspire their people!

Politics, Religion and Science

[Anonymous Coward]

The western world has decided that politics and religion should be separate. Why are politics and science still connected?

Re:Politics, Religion and Science

[Darkness404]

There are two types of sciences:

There is the theoretical side of science which is mostly publicly (or academically) funded. This is a lot of the stuff that makes you go "oh neat" but has little to no practical application in our lives.

Then there is the practical side of science, this is almost always privately funded through companies R&D teams, this is the stuff you use.

Until the theoretical side of science can really get the support of individuals, they're pretty much doomed to get cut first in any budget because their focus is almost exclusively on interesting, but not practical solutions.

Re:Politics, Religion and Science

[Anonymous Coward]

"The western world has decided that politics and religion should be separate. Why are politics and science still connected?"

For a change of pace I'd suggest visiting the USA. Our politicians all must pray to the right god in the right way, and do so often, loudly, and publicly. We also have the Republican party, which for over 30 years has been vacillating between denying science, and actively opposing it.

Romanian Science?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that like the antarctic auto industry?

science, innovation - not need it

[Anonymous Coward]

Not in Romania.

Politicians in Romania need the big mass of population uneducated. The voters must be many and easy to fool. The majority rules in a democracy and Romania now it's ruled by the low quality one and it's getting worst every 4-5 years at elections.

I don't understand why a science, high level professional would want to live there since it is getting worst every year since 1989.

Anyway, no surprise for me, i'm moving along.

any different here?

[Goldsmith]

It's really no different here in the US. It's rare to find a high level government scientist who doesn't have some arrangement with a university. At the very least, we all have our personal networks which help drive our citation counts.

This isn't a problem. Every time I've been on a funding review committee, people abstain from reviewing proposals which even look like a conflict of interest. My impression is that within US scientific culture, overt cronyism is not tolerated, while assistance in putting together the best plan and the best teams is seen as a good thing (subtle, but important distinction there).

I think we're much better off admitting that good scientists will have multiple roles in the community and we'll just try to make the best use of them we can.

Re:any different here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, no different in the USA? I don't think that universities in the USA have a full professor in a physics department who doesn't know what is the direction of a friction force. The Univ. of Bucharest had quite a few such guys, I speak from personal experience having been an undergrad there in the early 90's. All the old communist party activists disguised as professors were still in their positions. And their research meant simply plagiarizing the same articles over and over, safe in the knowledge that nobody will read their articles anyway.

A bit off topic

[hesaigo999ca]

This post is a bit off topic but uses this article to bring into light certain phenomenons that appear when fractured countries fall and crumble...bringing into question would they have done better keeping themselves as part of the whole (other country they left prior).

If the US currently said to any world government, join us as another one of our states, and allow us to manage you, although you keep certain laws and policies in place, thereby strengthening the fabric of government that might be fragile, they could then also help continue to mine that counrtie's (or new state's) resources whatever they might be. They would both profit as the new state would have less hardships with such polices that could just be adopting, and the US would become even stronger, but we are fracturing smaller and smaller, but to what end?

This fracturing to say you are "this label" or "that label" just to say you want to keep your culture alive is pure crap. I live in Quebec and deal with stupidity all the time concerning such issues and find any government that forces their people to the brink of bankruptcy just to say they are keeping their culture alive is wrong. The culture will remain alive no matter what country you live in as the Jews have clearly demonstrated up to today. Unfortunately they have bought into the fractured point of view by now bying their land back so to speak....

In the end, remove all borders and barriers, we are left with a language we speak and a heritage we choose to either accept and maintain or do away with. Neither is right or wrong, but atleast it is the people deciding for themselves, instead of the government deciding for them at the cost of tax payer dollars.

In this case we could see a reintegration into academic excellence and have a level of standards adopted from the US.

By the way, by no means do I think the US is the only country that could do this, as any country with a level of excellence could be considered as a viable source to "GROW" the united one world nation!.

Re:A bit off topic

[sumdumass]

If the US currently said to any world government, join us as another one of our states, and allow us to manage you, although you keep certain laws and policies in place, thereby strengthening the fabric of government that might be fragile, they could then also help continue to mine that counrtie's (or new state's) resources whatever they might be. They would both profit as the new state would have less hardships with such polices that could just be adopting, and the US would become even stronger, but we are fracturing smaller and smaller, but to what end?

Until relatively recently, the US did say that. This was the entire propagation of the states. The federal government never originally had this all encompassing rule over the states as it seems to be trying to push now. This is also why the states in the US are called states and are political subdivisions under the federal government and a State in other parts of the world are largely considered countries themselves.

By the way, by no means do I think the US is the only country that could do this, as any country with a level of excellence could be considered as a viable source to "GROW" the united one world nation!.

Incidentally it is entirely possible for other countries or states or even territories to become states in the United States of America still to this day. Palestine could actually petition to become a US state for instance. Of course they would have to meet whatever rules congress currently has in place first and guarantee a republic form of government and uphold other provisions in the US constitution but it is entirely possible. Other countries could too. Egypt for instance could decide to become the 52nd state of the US and have most of their sovereignty in tact.

Most foreign nations and territories with an incline of sovereignty do not have the inclination to remove their sovereignty or surrender portions of it voluntarily. This makes it highly unlikely anything like that would happen without colonization or losing a war first. But technically, if their population and ruling government were so inclined, any other country could very well become a US state.

Re:A bit off topic

[Anonymous Coward]

The culture will remain alive no matter what country you live in as the Jews have clearly demonstrated up to today. Unfortunately they have bought into the fractured point of view by now bying their land back so to speak....

The Jews went to Israel because no one else wanted them. After the concentration camps were closed in Poland, for example, there were still pogroms where victims were killed. In that kind of situation it's not about preserving your culture, it's about preserving your life.

Re:A bit off topic

[hesaigo999ca]

You seem very well educated on the subject, what do you think of this idea...

I think any country (like Argentina or Iceland or Greece), that declares bankruptcy becomes eligible to be "bought" to become part of another countries affiliations.
Seeing as the former government there made such a mess of things, that their people are now considered broke, that country should not be allowed to continue ruling itself, without the guide of an existing country that is successful. Countries take away peoples freedoms without choice. When yo are born into a country, you can not say you do not belong there, or will not follow their rules, and there is no "international neutral zone" which allows people to live without rules, except the ones they "want" to adopt for themselves.

Now it sounds extreme when you consider we have great laws against killing others, but say in a country like colombia or cuba, where the dictators stop you from leaving at all costs, forcing you to live in conditions that you find unacceptable, then this is not free will, as you were born into this, with no choice to another option.

Now keeping this part in mind, when a country whose has responsibility to be the best they can, becomes a danger to all its people because of the corruption or incompetence or whatever the case might be for that country's mismanegement, that country now becomes eligible for a buy out. All resources become another countries with the exception that you also have to accept citizenship for all its people. The uS accepts Argentina to be a 55th or 56th state, all the Argentinians become US citizens, as their resources could not be had without this, a fail safe if you will.

This I would hope to become a movement that spreads across the globe. Imagine if we had no borders because the world was 1 country!

How much would we save on border patrol globally
How much would we save on legal tender management.
How much would we save on transport fees if we have no customs to worry about.
How much would we etc, etc, etc ( fill in limitless vision here )

What I see happening with the reverse if we have splinters of countries everywhere, is that to get your goods by land from spain to ukraine, you might have 150 countries to get through, you would have 150 more chances of catching smugglers, but also 150 more chances of corruption and something happening to your goods in transfer.

Goverment

[Anonymous Coward]

If romania elected libertarians, this would not have happened. Garanteed.

Recent Romanian Scientific Discoveries

[NotFamous]

1. PI is 3.0 - it was all a big rounding error.
2. Electromagnetic radiation is actually made up of very small continuous-motion machines called EVRDY Bunnies.
3. Adam was the first man to land on the moon.
4. The 39th element is Romanium.
5. The internet was invented by Nadia Elena Comaneci.

Speaking as a romanian national ...summary isRight

[Anonymous Coward]

speaking as a romanian national [and still living here]: Summary is right on the dime. Basically the old minister was a young chemist-intellectual that had fled communism at age 18 by himself. He was/is forward thinking and had a lot of personal achievements in his field before coming into politics. His name was Daniel Funeriu. He made a lot of enemies in the system because he made changes that changed the educational/research system. And not changes that dont change anything like we like it here. What happend was that the guy's party lost the elections and the old neo-communists came back to power (under the name of socialists). And Caty Andronescu is *the* archtype of old communist aparatchik that has zero achievement in her actual field of work but huge "achievements" in her party. This means changing something visible that has absolutely no practical result whatsoever and we can all siphon public money undisturbed. Basically young-and-result-oriented vs old-communist-the-party-is-my-wholelife-peon.

It's just as well...

[Jawnn]

If you start handing out grants based on all that sciency stuff, you end up with a bunch scientists telling you things you don't want to hear, like the truth about the causes of global warming. Can't have that now, can we?

It's Slashdot's freefall, not Romania's

[Anonymous Coward]

So, who cares that the Romanian ministry of education has a conflict of interest and that the Romanian research budget is slashed? It sounds like petty political shit from a small country spilling onto Slashdot. I only wonder how this article got published. It's not informative, and not even funny.

Re:It's Slashdot's freefall, not Romania's

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you actually get it!

Re:It's Slashdot's freefall, not Romania's

[Axynter]

Actually I think this is one of the most interesting topics discussed on Slashdot lately. Romania is an interesting place in a lot of ways - in terms of archaeology, for example, it has produced the earliest anatomically modern human remains in Europe (Pestera cu Oase); it is also home to unique ecosystems, a very interesting place for cultural anthropologists, it has a lot of natural resources (including agricultural here), etc. In short, a lot of knowledge (and money) can be gained by studying a variety of things in Romania. And who is best suited to study Romania? An American or a well-trained Romanian scientist?

On a side note, Romania may be a small country by non-European standards, but quite a few notable intellectuals and scientists were born there over the last century or so.

Re:Speaking as a romanian national ...summary isRi

[Anonymous Coward]

PS: communists hate intellectuals [truly], so no wonder research is cut. It is a lot more easy to buy votes with some free food from the millions of illiterate - no its not a joke.

I'm sorry, Romania has a research landscape?

[flibbidyfloo]

OK look, this may sound like trolling, but I ask in all sincerity... why does a country like Romania need to be doing basic scientific research? Let the US and China do the hard work and maybe spend your time and effort eliminating cronyism and corruption in the government in general? If I was paying taxes to the Romanian government, I would be worried about a lot of other things before I wanted a dime of it to go to a Science Ministry.

And before anyone points me to the Wiki list of scientific discoveries by Romanians, I've looked at it. I don't know how many were made *in* Romania and in this century, and I didn't see any of them listed on the "Timeline of Romanian history".

I'm not saying they can't do good or useful research... just that in the current situation, I don't know why they would care very much about this.

Re:I'm sorry, Romania has a research landscape?

[Axynter]

I don't think research and education can be easily separated, and Romania does need to invest a lot in education. How do you expect to get rid of corruption if people are uneducated? The thing is, people do worry about "a lot of other things"... and as things stand many will swallow whole whatever lies those running for office will tell them (e.g. that if elected, each Romanian will get xxxx amount of money from him [Diaconescu]). The current educational system discourages critical thinking and the exploration of novel approaches, partially because the professors are paid poorly (which encourages corruption, such as accepting money for a better mark), and partially because they are poorly trained themselves.

Submitter is wrong

[DanV]

I completely agree with what the article states - romanian science is in free fall. But it is wrong about some facts.

In charge of Romanian education and research are two gentlemen - Mihnea Costoiu (Ministry of Research, close to Ecaterina Andronescu - and according to his resume he got his PhD in 6 months - CV and more info at http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-13845257-cine-este-mihnea-costoiu-propus-ministru-cercetarii.htm ) and Remus Pricopie (Ministry of Education, former rector at SNSPA, National School for Political and Administrative Science).

Before that, we had The Ministry of Education and Research as a single entity - and in the past 10 years we had over 12 different ministers in charge. Every one of them tried to radically change everything while actually changing nothing. Ecaterina Andorenscu was the longest lasting and did the most harm.

The only real change was through a law in 2011, passed by Daniel Funeriu - which got obliterated indeed during the short reign of Ecaterina Andronescu in 2012.

There are many things to tell - but the conclusion is this: we are in deep sh*t and sinking.

Re:Submitter is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! Maybe I should go to Romania and get a PhD too!

And a hot pornstar as well!!!

Re:Submitter is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

That could be a real growth industry for Romania.

Re: Submitter is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

well things arpe sure looking up so far

Lobachevsky

[Ukab the Great]

How about Tom Lehrer's Lobachevsky>

Re:Lobachevsky

[Genda]

Plagiarize, no, no, no... Research!

Re:Lobachevsky

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought their national anthem was already O-zone's Dragostea din Tei?

Thought is said "Romulan"

[jfdavis668]

I would have blamed Kirk for that, but I guess not.

Color me suprised

[itsme1234]

Minimum wage of less than 200 EUR monthly (and even that is hard to get for young people), before tax , pension, etc (and that is recent, around Y2K 30-100$ wages were common, even for engineers), VAT at 24% and prices just a bit lower than the rest of the EU. That is wages 2-3 times lower than freakin' Turkey. For a EU country, with almost EU prices.

And you can get thousands of Euros in the "normal" EU, plus all the other benefits that come from non-retarded country like medical care (I mean the actual services that really don't exist, even the head of state went to Austria for some minor intervention).

Even the freaking gypsies are leaving the country. Science? Forget it.

Re:Color me suprised

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how every idiot compares minimum wages. Minimum wages are called minimum because they should and generally do represent the exception. In my office, in Bucharest, the average wage after taxes, pension, medical and others is situated around EUR 1500 per month. And I'm just another geek (21st century working class), not management, not executive or otherwise. A friend of mine, a hairdresser makes about EUR 700 after taxes, contributions, etc., and another EUR 500-700 from tips per month. Which is almost as much as a hairdresser in Frankfurt am Main (*) would make after taxes. I just turned 29 and recently finished paying for my brand new apartment. While an exact amount is difficult to estimate, it was somewhere around EUR 225000 as I also have other sources of income. Yes, you are probably running software written by my on your smart phone.

If you want to compare, compare average wages. In Bucharest (the expensive city), you're probably looking at RON3.000 on average (roughly EUR 680), while country-wide, the average is at EUR 520 (as of 02/2013).
If you want to look into detail, let me get you started with nation-wide statistics:
- Highest average after-taxes wages are in the field of Energy, with an average just below EUR1000.
- Lowest average after-taxes wages are in Hotels/Restaurants (seasonal, heavily dependent on weather and occasional incomes known as tips), at RON 863 (in 05/2013) which is slightly under EUR 200. So, yes, if you work at KFC or Holiday Inn, you get payed shit, which also applies everywhere else.

No, it's not as good as in Luxemburg, but we are doing better every day. If you live in Europe, you will probably buy a car manufactured in Romania in the following 7-8 years, if you didn't already. When getting on the A380, know that a lot of the design of some critical components has been done in Romania. If you're European, thanks for feeding our rroma population, 10 years ago you were (rightfully I might add) complaining about our treatment of the 'gipsies' and 'stray dogs'. Now that they also represent your problem, how are your methods different? And by the way, while you got some of our nomads, know you also got our medics. So many of our medics, educated by our tax-payer money are working in Germany, the UK, France, etc. And we really need some of those back. Unfortunately, out of 100 Romanians living abroad, if one is a social misfit, only that one will get media attention instead of the fireman, the medic, the nurse, the scientist, the engineer, the lawyer, etc.

(*) FfM - A city in Germany for the ones lacking any skills in reading a map. For most Americans it's known as the location of GI Blues with Elvis Presley. For non Americans it's also the city with the European Central Bank. For Europeans it's known as Bankfurt.

Re:Color me suprised

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you high? Because it seems so if you think that more than 10% of romanian workers have more than 900RON as monthly salary.

Re:Color me suprised

[Axynter]

Hrrmm, minimum wages in Romania matter - averages mean nothing if the distribution is heavily skewed. You should also take a look at the level of unemployment. And all this EU talk and how much funds it has given to Romania... look at how many companies from "western" countries have benefited from cheap Romanian labour (although, not content, some are moving to places like Moldova, which is a bit ironic considering all the protectionist measures countries like France implement). Then you have foreign (EU) companies such as Orange which set their prices in Euros and are completely shielded from fluctuations in the local currency (RON) while a Romanian customer never knows just how much the next bill is actually going to cost. The thing is, even with the average wage you provide, it's very hard to argue that you can make a totally honest living. The math just doesn't add up. If you don't own a fully paid apartment in Bucharest, rent is going to cost you what? 200-300 euros? That leaves you with, say, 480 euros. The cost of living is only slightly below that of, for example, Leipzig (Germany), so I really have a hard time seeing how you can make ends meet - just food is going to cost you at least 250 Euros per month, and then you have all sorts of bills (electricity, gas, etc). The current wages are below what is required for living - honestly, if you told me I would have to work my ass off 10 hours a day to be able to barely make it to next month, I would either give up on work, move to a different country, or try to find a way to make money in dubious ways (stealing, cheating, etc). So this creates corruption at the lowest levels, which is the real problem... imagine a poor peasant who steals some scrap metal from unused infrastructure left over from communist times - the local police and/or mayor know about it, but let it pass... the catch is, when that mayor or police officer starts pocketing public money one way or another, the poor peasant can't really stand up and do anything about it, since he or she has a lot more to lose by being fined or going to jail than the (richer) mayor, who also has contacts that can get him out of sticky situations. I honestly think that the extremely low and unsustainable wages (in addition to the totally irresponsible media) are to blame for the corruption and the status of Romanian politics.

Re:Color me suprised

[Axynter]

Ah, what the hell happened to paragraph breaks?!

Re:Color me suprised

[itsme1234]

You got it the wrong way, the MINIMUM wages are the ones that matter. If thousands would be the regular wage why would the state bother to say by law that you need to give at least hundreds?

Re:Color me suprised

[Anonymous Coward]

F* computer science! I am applying for a hair-dresser job in Bucharest!

Seriously now, I think the median EUR 1500 per month is highly exaggerated (unless you work in a company where you're the only employee). The salary for a junior programmer in Bucharest is somewhere at EUR 600 - EUR 700. A senior makes EUR 1500.

But what he doesn't say is that the salaries in IT are not the general norm and that, in other cities, salaries are MUCH smaller. I don't even want to talk about the countryside, where most of the people still don't have water utilities.

A teacher in Romania makes EUR 200. A medic makes about the same. They need to take bribes to survive. That is the country!

Re:Color me suprised

[Anonymous Coward]

If I were to get technical, then the MEDIAN wage would be the one that matters. Minimum wage is not representative, the average can be skewed.

Nothing new

[TuringCheck]

We are very good at spending money and producing useless scientific papers.
My experience while working at a state owned research institute:
- Phase X of project needs buying some equipment
- Only 30-60% money available
- Write useless study to justify spending the money
- Move acquisition to next phase
- Repeat until project gets buried

nomadic

[Anonymous Coward]

gypsies are leaving because they are inherently nomadic and they go where there is something to steal :>

Re:Speaking as a romanian national ...summary isRi

[Genda]

Yeah, silly communists! You be more like America where we listen to our... Oh?! really? Never mind :-)

i'll bite

[Anonymous Coward]

We dont want to eliminate corruption, thats just it. Too many of us benefit in some small way from corruption. Mostly the poor and the politicians. The losers are those in the middle who need to work to sustain their chosen lifestyle. It doesnt matter if its called research. They could stop calling it research tomorrow and start calling it "health care johnson rod" - it would still get stolen and nothing useful would get done just like everything else. And who would say we dont need "health care johnson rod"? ps: saying we didnt do nothing this century would be like asking why were there no jewish theaters being opened in ww2 germany. And it wouldnt even be our fault.

Why do you WANT that government to invest more?

[SuperKendall]

So let me get this straight, the top two leaders of the country have direct ties into the scientific realm there, and also are known cheaters.

Holy cow, you should be GRATEFUL government investment in science research has fallen, because very obviously a lot of whatever is spent is going to come back as graft to the government leaders!

You do not NEED a government to be a major investor in research. That can be done quite well by profits from universities (and they are earning a good profit) or by companies also. The government is only one player and when that government is corrupt, it only helps to keep them away from investment.

Romania...

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

After watching an episode of Top Gear, Romania made it to the number one spot on my Bucket List of places NOT to go to before I die. So far the check box beside it is holding strong.

Re:Romania...

[Greyfox]

I did an outsourcing gig in Romania in the late 90's and liked the country. I liked the people I met, the food was good and the wine was fantastic. On the negative side, everyone seems to smoke everywhere there and no emissions controls means fleeing outside provides no relief. At the end of a week there my lungs just ached. Then we get on the plane and they announce it's a smoking flight until we get to London... I think the most concise and accurate description of the town I was in that I could come up with was "Miami with no emissions controls." Given an excuse, I'd go back!

Re:Romania...

[psergiu]

In the last 5 years smoking was banned almost everywhere (public & private institutions) in Romania. Also there are way less "smoke-belcher" cars on the street now. But there's more dust - as almost all the forests around the cities were cut down.

Is Romania still a thing?

[Gothmolly]

What exactly is Romania again?

Re:Is Romania still a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need to worry about that. Just get back to your thing.

When you think of Romania

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't naturally think "science". You might free associate it with gymnastics, or fierce political thought, or evil dictators. Maybe cannon fodder for German troops fighting the Soviets during WWII, or oil refineries bombed by the Allies. Or that hot chick from the Fiat 500 commercial. But science? I'm hard pressed to think of a single Romanian scientist that's contributed anything.

Re:When you think of Romania

[slashsun]

Romanian scientists are working in many universities across the US and in Europe, but you won't see that as long as under their names it reads "University of Berkeley, California" or "ETHZ, Switzerland" (I randomly picked two places where I personally know Romanian scientists). The problem is research in Romania is indeed very thin, but don't mistake that for no contributions to science by Romanians.

Re:When you think of Romania

[TheSeatOfMyPants]

"University of Berkeley, California"

Do you mean University of California, Berkeley? :) I don't think that there's a separate university in Berkeley these days, but in all honesty, after some of the things I saw in Berkeley as a Cal undergrad in the 90s, it wouldn't surprise me.

Re:When you think of Romania

[slashsun]

Yep, sorry. Note to self: double check before posting.

mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up

you might be missing out...

[Anonymous Coward]

it is not that bad a place. You might like it here. Specially if you can visit some local friend who can provide explanations. You might not want to base your decisions on television, just saying.

brain drain

[Joining Yet Again]

Capitalism's just continuing to do what it does best: exploiting the hard work of others.

The Romanian education system - and, indeed, the entire (legacy of the) Soviet/satellite education system - was heavily biased toward excellence in mathematics and engineering. So much so that a Western school mathematics course looks remedial.

Having beneftted from this, philosophically empty and socially incompetent graduates are seduced by dreams of power and money in the West. The exploitation continues, nothing improves, but a few clever people get rich.

More to do with Romanian society

[Anonymous Coward]

The country itself has some wonderful parts and there are people there as fine as anywhere but it's the society itself that needs to change. It's still possible to get your own way with bribes. I guess this happens everywhere, but particularity so in Romania so,compared to other countries, little is done by merit or rules.

Tough Conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to have scientific research you need at least two things: money and scientists. When you think that the possible outcome could be 0 and you look in the governamental wallet just to find no money, their action is understandable. However, the outstanding researchers will migrate to other countries creating a vacuum behind.
Another option would be the private sector to take over. Unfortunately they also struggle to survive the economic crisis and they barely produce enough to make it through the month. And I'm not talking about the banks...