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Russia Issues Travel Warning To Its Citizens About United States and Extradition
mendax writes "The New York Times reports that the Russian government is warning its citizens to not travel to countries that have an extradition treaty with the United States, noting that 'detentions of Russian citizens in various countries, at the request of American law enforcement, have become more frequent.' The article reports the Russian foreign ministry as saying,'Experience shows that the judicial proceedings against those who were in fact kidnapped and taken to the U.S. are of a biased character, based on shaky evidence, and clearly tilted toward conviction.'"
Not too long ago that most people in the US would be worried about Russia being the bad guy in such situations.
Is "shaky" a precise legal term?
ralphbarbagallo.com
there's got to be a joke here somewhere...
Experience shows that the judicial proceedings against those who were in fact kidnapped and taken to the U.S. are of a biased character, based on shaky evidence, and clearly tilted toward conviction.
Yeah, Russia's the expert on that.
Still, it's amazing that the U.S. has become such a totalitarian police state that Russia can legitimately give them crap.
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
Americans arrest you!
Because there isn't a huge vote coming up in Congress about Syria or anything... Everything on the interwebz is a lie!
Once not long ago I would have laughed now I'm just sad.
Please do not make this about "Right" vs "Left". Both parties love power, and don't really care about the citizens. When people bicker about "Right" vs "Left" it distracts from the real issues.
Not that Russia was ever a major ally to the US, but more and more countries are ceasing to put up with the hostile nature of the US's foreign relations policy. The US is failing in all sorts of relations due to its policies on copyrights, "terrorism," worthless wars and drug enforcement, and increasingly, other nations are no longer putting up with it.
Throughout its history, the US has more or less never had any interest in the well-being of other nations they enter relations with. Of course, you could perhaps say this is true of all nations. However, if the US is going to be so self-centered in its relations, then the best thing for the world is for them to have less of an influence in strong-arming other nations into agreeing with them. This influence historically has come largely from dominating economic pressure, but we'll see if it lasts - hopefully it doesn't. The last thing the world needs is to become more like the US.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
That is a bigger issue. The "little" issues get swept under and we will probably go to war regardless of congresses vote. It just won't be officially a war which means we'll be committing even worse atrocities and there will be no rights under international treaty of those imprisoned as a result of said war.
Your comment will probably get a lot of responses, just because of the hatred and misinformation that it contains. I'm not fan of the far left (nor the far right), but let's for a minute remember who created the department of homeland security. George W. Bush. Let's also take a look at who created the TSA. George W. Bush. Who signed the Patriot Act into law? George W. Bush. I don't know about you, but I don't think any of the people listed above are part of the 'Extreme Left'. Yet somehow the people I listed above have done a fabulous job restricting freedom. I'm not really interested in left or right. I just find it sad that people like you can't distinguish the forest through the trees: ALL our politicians have contributed to this problem. The sad fact remains: Russia is right. We are becoming a police state, especially with regards to extradition and our borders where we claim our laws don't apply.
The fact that you would call the US a Totalitarian Police State means that you have very little understanding of the a Totalitarian Police State actually is.
Is the US doing things it shouldn't be (Spying on its citizens, TSA, etc.), sure. But that is far from Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany. You know, actual Totalitarian Police States.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Actually, this article is about how other countries are assisting the US against Russia.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Pay it no attention. Next thing you know the Ruskies will claim that America spies on its own citizens.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Likely the article refers to this guy : Voktor Bout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout
I'm not sure what the vegans and homosexuals have to do with this, but if i remember, a lot of this started under bush and has been embraced wholeheartedly by the present administration. If you think this is about left vs. right, you don't understand american politics.
Unfortunately this is the world we in the US now live in. Courtesy of the extreme Left we are now living effectively in a police state.
Yeah, the "left". Maybe you are looking upside down at times. Both "left" and "right" are advancing it relentlessly. You know, to "protect the children" and other such diversions and lies used to impose totalitarian laws.
Police state doesn't give a fuck if it is left or right. It only cares to gain more control and maintain status quo.
I would agree that we live in a police state now. But no one has tested it yet. But everything is in place. Give it some time and we'll all look back and say *oh shit*
Forgot GITMO and the number of people detained there without ever having seen a judge, or a lawyer?
A country where you can be taken off the street without any cause, just by labeling you a 'terrorist' sounds just like the Soviet Union, North Korea and Nazi Germany..
:)
What "extreme Left" would that be? Remember that this is the US we're talking about, where the "Left" consists of that tiny slice of the political spectrum that's not made up of barking mad right-wingers.
Most likely this is crap, just political gamesmanship, but the sad thing is that US actions and policies have given the country such a shady reputation that everyone has to at least give it a good look.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
These are the kinds of warnings WE used to give about RUSSIAN satellite nations.
This is all turning into a bad dream...
The extreme left? In the USA? Are you serious? To what very limited extent there even is a left in the USA it's what Europeans call the center or center-right...and this teabaggery gets modded up on /. What's next, Glenn Beck's goldline scam being pushed as sound investment and a top story? Weeping Jesus on the Cross what the Hell's happened to this place?
Still, it's amazing that the U.S. has become such a totalitarian police state that Russia can legitimately give them crap.
And the Germans. Syria had a go at it to :D
Imprisoned? I fail to see how it's inappropriate to bomb banned chemical stockpiles on military bases used against civilians. If anything, IMO of course, this administration has compromised far too much & should take bolder action in doing what's just & right. I just don't see how anyone can view all the deaths & evidence against that regime & think it's ok to do nothing. But I digress. Carry on.
Actually, this is about how Russia fears the US will abuse the treaties it has with other countries.
These treaties were signed when the US still had the appearance of a trustworthy partner... and you don't waive this treaties without suffering consequences. (remember the cuba trade embargo? - Imagine a 'Europe' trade embargo... not good.
Holy shit, you quit taking your meds again, didn't you? There isn't, and hasn't been an "extreme left" in this country in almost 40 years. It's that the extreme right keeps moving more extremely right that makes people who used to be described as "moderate Republicans" (like Barak Obama) look like lefties. These days, idiots like you, who use sentences like the above quoted, wouldn't have allowed Ronald Reagan to run as a Republican because he wasn't "right" enough. And somebody like an Everett Dirkson, well, "hangin' would be too good for him", right?
That is exactly his point. Both sides of politics are at fault.
I would agree that we live in a police state now. But no one has tested it yet. But everything is in place. Give it some time and we'll all look back and say *oh shit*
But one have to look at the positives to.
Think "Hackers" and lots of Sci-Fi content (Equilibrium and so on (not that I remember much of that one, but whatever.))
Sci-Fi has been right before .. :D
I sure hope that if the US goes through the trouble of extraditing someone, its case is "biased towards conviction".
How did you manage to miss the obvious point. It's not about 'left' or 'right' making you a part of the noise that distracts.
The summary says "the Russian government is warning its citizens to not travel to countries that have an extradition treaty with the United States", but the article says:
"The Russian Foreign Ministry posted advice of a somewhat different nature on Monday, cautioning people wanted by the United States not to visit nations that have an extradition treaty with it."
Unfortunately, that small omission significantly changes the meaning of the line.
A totalitarian state is one in which people used to say, "It can't happen here."
Why practice extra-ordinary rendition when you can invite your victim over for some polonium tea.
This is easy to explain: The US is not a nation, but an empire.
Most other countries have given up being an empire. Some still have ties from the past (britain, the french once in a while), others are also trying to be empires (russia attempts that, china is one). Look with whom the most problems arise: With other empires.That is not due to size but due to the exclusive claim empires have on "stuff they are interested in". Australia is also very large but it does not have constant struggles with the nations near, many european countries are pretty large and influential but they do not have constant problems all over the world (but they had when they were trying to be empires - like in the events that lead to WWI).
Empires have a claim on ressources, influence and ideology - nations can negotiate. As such, empires constalty have to to defend their claim by very dirty diplomatic means and by wars.
I wouldn't be all that worried. Lots of ass licking still going on.
Obama will land here in Sweden is it tomorrow or something? Our prime minister isn't supposed to talk about intelligence gathering (we do it ourself and likely share intelligence with the US to that would be weird to begin with), maybe something will be said about Syria but it seems like what he want to talk about is a free trade agreement / zone between the US and EU.
Now if you look at individuals here I assume some will take the chance to try to make themself seen and heard, but I don't know what is planed (I don't live in Stockholm to begin with so I'm not likely to participate in anything anyway because I'm too cheap =P)
Also while we don't have those "first amandment cages" which someone else linked yesterday things like the road he/they will be traveling on will be totally shut down and I guess they won't let the most crazy people / demonstrating people disturb the meeting / silence.
Came to think about it I wonder if the meeting with other scandinavian and baltic leaders wasn't supposed to be on Gotland (which is an island in the baltic sea) if so I guess they get rid of lots of people in Stockholm who would otherwise had participated because then they too would have to travel to Gotland and that takes much more interest / dedication.
Personally I would had been most interested in our political leaders growing some and say let Snowden or Manning och Assange be here and let people speak their mind (and possibly things like Facebook and Google put more data centers here and build better network infrastructure and such because people enjoyed more a free zone) but they obviously don't share such a vision (and it may come at a diplomatic / political cost.)
Feels like a missed opportunity though. It would had been so easy to get lots of creative and intelligent minds, big IT business and in general cool people and technology here.
Instead they are focusing on selling out everything which is owned by us together, limit benefits of the people in the bottom and keep the borders open because we're such nice people! At least the last one is developing the society in the right direction.
And it is, in fact, not very different from what many other nations are already doing. Modern Germany, France, the UK, and lots of other nations have been spying on their citizens for decades and are still much more intrusive into their citizens' personal lives than even the US under Obama.
I'm not sure what the vegans and homosexuals have to do with this, but if i remember, a lot of this started under bush and has been embraced wholeheartedly by the present administration. If you think this is about left vs. right, you don't understand american politics.
I dont think anyone understands 'Murican politics and if anyone did understand 'Murican politics it would be instantaneously replaced with something even more unexplainable and convoluted.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
That's little different from the imprisonment refugees suffer in places like Germany and Australia. Australia has even set up extraterritorial detention camps in places like Nauru.
If you are considered a threat to national security, you can be taken off the street in pretty much any nation. The only thing that's unusual about the US is that this didn't use to happen here. And the sooner we return that exceptional status among nations, the better.
I don't understand how we could legally arrest Bout. He wasn't a citizen of the U.S., he was never in the U.S., and he never committed a crime on U.S. soil.
He was a citizen of a country that often supported the side opposite of ours in conflicts, but that's not a crime.
Kissinger gave material support to regimes that were committing war crimes. If Russia wants to prosecute Kissinger, would we be legally required to turn him over? If Kissinger's airplane was forced to stop in Russia, could the Russians arrest him?
Maybe you don't believe in following international law. Maybe you believe in realpolitik and might makes right. OK, but you no longer have grounds for moral outrage when a militant group sets off a truck full of dynamite outside your embassy. They're just playing by the same rules you are.
The summary says "the Russian government is warning its citizens to not travel to countries that have an extradition treaty with the United States", but the article says: "The Russian Foreign Ministry posted advice of a somewhat different nature on Monday, cautioning people wanted by the United States not to visit nations that have an extradition treaty with it." Unfortunately, that small omission significantly changes the meaning of the line.
The summary says "the Russian government is warning its citizens to not travel to countries that have an extradition treaty with the United States", but the article says: "The Russian Foreign Ministry posted advice of a somewhat different nature on Monday, cautioning people wanted by the United States not to visit nations that have an extradition treaty with it." Unfortunately, that small omission significantly changes the meaning of the line.
I'm glad you read the article for me. I assumed the summary was accurate, but I now see it's seriously misleading. Unknown Lamer, the submitter, should be ashamed. The summary-version implies Russia is suggesting the US, at whim, may have you arrested in one of its allied countries. In the article-version, Russia is giving straight legal advice: if there is a US warrant for you, don't travel where a US warrant can be enforced.
(||) Nehmo (||)
However, the original bulletin does not seem to contain such language, judging from the auto translation.
I believe Russia.
RUSSIA.
It may be bad form for one to comment upon his own posting but Russia's position is, more or less, correct on this issue. American courts leave much to be desired in terms of fairness or actual justice. But Russia's are worse. American prisons are generally pretty awful compared to those of Western Europe. But Russia's are worse. The only thing I can see going for Russia is that it doesn't have a death penalty, which may be worse in that life in a Russian prison could easily make a person wish for death. American prisoners serving life sentences are not in any kind of paradise and prisons for such people are not pleasant places but it is possible to live a fairly decent and satisfying life if the inmate can lower his or her expectations.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
Make him tune into Canadian election coverage for a few hours and he'll figure out what left really means.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
And here I thought McCarthy was dead, and McCarthyism with him. Seems people like to be paranoid.
These days it ain't the "extreme left" you should worry about son.
A Gay Totalitarian State would make a great sketch for a comedy show. And I do believe that is what Pat Robertson is afraid we are moving towards.
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...they arrest gay people simply for being gay, and have threatened to arrest gay athletes.
This man fled Russia because of the reaction to his paintings of Putin in lingerie: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/fearing-retribution-artist-behind-putin-lingerie-painting-leaves-russia/279181/
It's easy to take this as an opportunity to denigrate the US. The level of corruption is far worse in Russia and the civil rights protections a fraction of what US citizens enjoy.
If Snowdon has been Russian and escaped with FSB documents, he wouldn't be alive right now. In case nobody noticed, Russia assassinates inconvenient people.
Please help metamoderate.
In USA, Soviet Russia becomes you.
Table-ized A.I.
Maybe both sides are fucked up.
Table-ized A.I.
II wonder how many illegal songs a 9yr old Russian kids has to download until they are extradited?
Why try to hide it? http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cia-has-attempted-to-assassinate-50-foreign-leaders-including-chavez/5326864
Tomorrow is another day...
Bush opened the door to a hostile foreign policy, which Obama and his minions (Clinton, Kerry) have continued.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Wait a decade or two, until the middle class finally vanish. The only market remaning will be toys for rich sociopaths.
Tomorrow is another day...
This is a complicated problem. We're just getting out long drawn out wars, that have bled our economy dry. The rebels aren't exactly a bowl of cherries and picking the lesser of the two evils is quick becoming a full time job. Our closest bar fight partner just begged off. How big a barbeque do you have? Pin pricks, or ground the entire Syrian air Force? Boots on the ground? What are the repercussions in the region for any of the choices we make?
The US just marching into people's countries to whip a little Texas justice on them like Walker Texas Ranger is getting a little old.
And you best believe there are a nation of lefties howling like banshees about it. Nobody who believes in human rights, personal liberty, or due process thinks the Patriot Act is anything less than a Neo-Fascist Nightmare come true... I'd be happy to introduce you to communities of Dems looking to impeach Obama.
Not just a country, the US will try to grab you anywhere in the world. It's a scandal, my government should be shooting down CIA jets that enter our airspace to kidnap people.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
He has a good point. Not sure why he was modded down to 1. Elliot Spitzer is a good example of someone who posed a direct threat to Wall Street and suddenly its discovered that he visited prostitutes and our establishment media uses it to destroy his career. I wouldn't say everything is in place just yet, however, because at some levels we still have a functioning democracy. The most important thing is to use what's left of it to get the influence of big money out of government as best we can.
Why not let US have them?
Dude... look up the word RENDITION. Dirty deeds done in the dark of night cheap. A whole lot of innocent people enjoyed the hospitality of middle eastern prisons on Uncle Sam's dime.
The department of Homoland Security... it has a nice ring!
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of people in Central and South America who would argue with about how benign America's involvement has been.
Especially since the USA (from perspectives of Canadians at least, and probably other countries that DO have a left and right) - doesn't have a "left". At best it has an "extreme right" and a "somewhat more moderate right"
But that isn't happening is it? Do US Citizens need to fear the government...
Your not paying attention to the 100 mile rights free zone (and growing - inland). I dare you to take up some social activism then let's see how long you can go without feeling the fear (As one example: Where did all the OWS leaders go?).
Very much "pot calling kettle"... USA and Russia are both famously historically "guilty" of this, as well as accusing each other of this.
however, all of the signs of psychological projection, in the more precise dialect.
*aside* even considering that, it's still safer to do business in the USA, for the most part. At least the illegal detentions, seizures, etc actually are well enough documented that folks who are at risk can usually avoid entering. Russia's still not very much into the concept of "free speech".
But that sort of thinking ruins the nice conspiracy that the US is the only evil country currently in existence, and that everywhere else (or at least everywhere else that slashdot readers live) is a model of freedom.
Is the realization that the differences between Russia and the US are no longer a matter of type, but of degree.
North Korea and Nazi Germany are/were military dictatorships. In a military dictatorship, there's no pretense of due process. There is one leader and if you cross them, you suffer the consequences. East Germany was very much a police state, but one could argue that it was under the control of the USSR and not that unique an example.
I think categorically denying that the U.S. is a police state is dangerous. Something very unhealthy is happening in the U.S.. People don't even feel free to talk openly about it anymore. Names are being taken down via social media and citizens are being secretly spied upon without due process. The pretense of due process is still there. Guantanamo is considered "different" and the DHS operates in a space which is also "an exception". The government still feels it needs to explain its actions to the media.
Where was all this outrage and demand to bomb when the rebels used nerve gas back in May?
Both sides in the Syrian conflict are baddies. It's a bit hypocritical to bomb the Syrian government for using chemical weapons when we ignored the rebels doing the same.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
You're having a laugh, right?
Says the country that does NOT have proper separation of powers, where the whims of the PTB can send you to jail for life, and where the conviction rate is north of 95%
If Russia wants to prosecute Kissinger, would we be legally required to turn him over?
No.
If Kissinger's airplane was forced to stop in Russia, could the Russians arrest him?
Yes. This is what Austria was going to do with the whole Bolivian president's plane and Snowden thing.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
There wasn't much outrage in May because there was no evidence that the rebels used nerve gas in May. There was accusations made by Carla Del Ponte who was a member of an inquiry team for the UN who once made a name for herself prosecuting the Mafia. She claimed that it was the rebels trying to make it look like it was the Syrian government... However that wasn't backed up by any concrete evidence, and her colleagues disagreed (mostly again, pointing out that there was no evidence). The biggest question mark is of course where the rebels would have gotten the nerve gas. But probably the main reason most people ignored it? The source. Carla Del Ponte has a long history of making up allegations that later prove to be false. In 2005 she accused the Vatican of sheltering Croatian war criminals. She accused NATO pilots of war crimes in Kosovo before quickly recanting. And finally she published a book about Albanian doctors butchering Serbian prisoners and selling their organs, allegations that eventually led her to prosecute. All the accused have since been acquitted as Del Ponte was unable to satisfy any sort of burden of proof.
Extreme left? Wait... I get it! What country are you pointing your finger at?
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
That's little different from the imprisonment refugees suffer in places like Germany and Australia. Australia has even set up extraterritorial detention camps in places like Nauru.
Bullshit. I can't speak about Australia, but just today a number of asylum seekers in Germany have gathered in Munich to protest the fact that they are not supposed to leave the administrative district they are housed in. You can think what you will about this rule, but if you believe being legally restricted to an administrative district (note that refugees are not physically prevented from leaving) is in any way comparable to being imprisoned in Gitmo, then you are nuts.
If you are considered a threat to national security, you can be taken off the street in pretty much any nation. The only thing that's unusual about the US is that this didn't use to happen here. And the sooner we return that exceptional status among nations, the better.
In civilized nations, even suspected threats to national security have to be brought before a judge within a short period of time after being arrested (in Germany it is 48 hours), and they cannot be detained for years without being charged for a crime either.
You're a leftist who says everyone is a rightist, and accuse the rightist of a skewed perspective when he says everyone is a leftist. But to be fair, it's hard to come to an objective classification of politicians since they go to great lengths to conceal their actual agenda, if they even have one besides pure opportunism.
Compared to what?
This is just a case of Russia being opportunistic obviously. Look!! Quick!! The US isn't all rainbows and unicorns like they pretend to be and look at all those gay rights while you're at it.
Sure, all the jabs are at the US and lord knows it deserves every last one we get with our ridiculous treatment of pretty much everyone in the world including our own citizens but come on...Russia never has and never will be the lesser evil of the two. Using Russia as your champion only significantly diminishes the whole debate.
But that sort of thinking ruins the nice conspiracy that the US is the only evil country currently in existence,
No, US is not the only evil country. Are you happier now with the level of evilness in US?
(I always wonder how come pissing contests have so many fans? How come one can be happy to smell bad only because others stink more?).
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw propaganda around. Pussy Riot, Kasperov... all of these things, they do not ring a bell ya?
Note to myself: those who live in glass houses shouldn't use bells.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
The Police State was built by GOP Administrations, not by the Democrats.
The NSA and other alphabet agencies LONG predate Obush. You are making the horrid mistake, which they want you to do, of thinking there is any difference other than Second Amendment support between the Parties.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Who were they? Do you know? Can you name people that are missing?
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I appreciate that you dropped the term Totalitarian from your description of the US.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
"the said citizens are known criminals"
You have clearly misspelled the word "criminals" but I fail to see in which particular way: was it "suspects" or "f**k the due process"?
Take a notice: it's either "suspects" or "f**k the due process".
Cold War 2 is in full swing! Who is going to win this round?
And, the more our own citizens continue taking the bait, the more they will feed us. I suggest you actually READ the article rather than just reading the opportunistic headline.
Of course, a country with an extradition treaty (which works both ways, btw) with another country will extradite someone wanted by the other country...but, in most cases, it is not automatic. For example, if someone faces the death penalty here, a country opposing the DP will likely refuse the extradition without assurances that the DP will not be invoked. And, similarly, we won't extradite someone if they face potential double jeopardy in a Kangaroo court.
The advise the Russians gave is legal advice to someone WANTED (but, not POI) by the US who is traveling to a country with an extradition treaty with the US....not just any 'old Russian citizen. We, the USA, gave and continue to give similar advice when traveling abroad. We aren't grabbing their citizens off the streets. It's old news...just reiterated again and grabbed by people who seem to have filled their hearts with hate for their own country and Russia bilking the Snowden/NSA story. Nothing new here...been going on since the Cold War started - I know as I served during a portion of it and remember the lectures.
It's not true. American citizens can't just be taken off the street and detained without probably cause or charges, although Gonzales and Cheney and Bush and Addington and Yoo *tried* to establish that as law. They failed. Outcomes when the system works has to mean something too.
What the US does to other people in other countries is another matter, ranging from droning people we can't otherwise reach to the Gitmo.
As far as GITMO goes, what we have going on there are people , only some of whom WERE dangerous when we picked them up but many of whom ARE NOW dangerous (uh..duh.) and therefore are being detained. It's truly Kafakaesque but then that's what fascists like the above listed names inevitably create in their wake.
As an American citizen, the government is not going to disappear you (anymore) without charges. Your point is not moot however because for a while , they DID do that and would HAVE continued to do that if the the ACLU et al. had not filed suit and the courts had not intervened.
As far as other governments go, I don't know which ones think it's their privilege to disappear people, whether it's their own or another nation's citizen.
They did it to captured chemical weapons during the first gulf war with no problem. Of course, the low doses of neurotoxins US troops ended up getting from doing that were one of the causes (aside from undiagnosed PTSD) of Gulf War Syndrome, so it probably wasn't very bright.
Elliot Spitzer is a good example of someone who posed a direct threat to Wall Street and suddenly its discovered that he visited prostitutes and our establishment media uses it to destroy his career.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that and made that connection.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Although Obama seems to have done much better with just executing US citizens without probable cause or charges....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
hmmm I wonder how that fact got found out and then slipped out to the friendly media? All this email and internet traffic hoovering is giving them a massive blackmail source...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Taking a "vacation" without going to a country with an extradition treaty with the USA isn't all that easy. By my count, that's about 110 countries you can't visit. Your vacations are pretty much going to be confied to Africa or the poorer areas Asia. Essentially, if it has yearly cholera outbreaks, that's your vacation spot.
Methinks you have a short memory. How about the unending 'war' on drugs/terror/pedophiles/music pirates?
Does the US execute people without a trial and conviction?
Does the US imprison people without a trial and conviction?
Does the US torture its prisoners?
Does the US avoid prosecuting the criminal deeds of a 'ruling class'?
Does the US legalize theft of private property by its own judicial branch?
Does the US empower its judicial branch with military scope and duties?
Does the US allow departments to self-assess their own righteousness?
Does the US demand 'rule of law' while ignoring international agreements like the Geneva convention and WTO council?
Does the US deny journalists or public speakers the right to association or assembly?
Hint: All these questions have the same answer.
What happens in that country is their problem, as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe we should try to police the world.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
I'm not really interested in left or right. I just find it sad that people like you can't distinguish the forest through the trees: ALL our politicians have contributed to this problem.
Just because Bush isn't in power anymore doesn't mean we should all forget about what he's done. Further, the guy never claimed that Obama had no hand in any of this.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
A quick search and you will have a considerable list of names and example cases - for just this single topic (OWS). There are plenty more. So to address your original point: yes US Citizens do fear the government knocking on the door at midnight (literally!), rounding them up for detainment before they can exercise their supposed democratic rights. The crime: wanting to improvement the community.
To quote from the GP, the US has unfortunately become a country "where you can be taken off the street without any [justifiable] cause, just by labeling you a 'terrorist' sounds just like the Soviet Union, North Korea and Nazi Germany."
Interesting that you'd bring this up. In fact this was not the Syrian government's first use of chemical weapons, but the latest and biggest in a long list that includes last march outside rebel-held Allepo (I believe the one you are referring to), all of which targeted rebel-held or contested territory. The interesting thing is that the rumors I'm hearing this morning is that a Syrian general involved in the attacks has defected, with evidence that his government carried it out.
Unless you are a big Russia Today reader I suppose, in which case what happened was that the syrian rebels gassed their own women and children repeatedly in order to get the sympathy of the West (which has studiously looked the other way instead). Since that tactic hasn't been working, they've kept doing it. Genius! Or its been the CIA or USA State department, hoping to provide a great excuse for intervention so they can rush in and blow trillions more dollars with attacks that will get the whole world hating them. Because, well, they just love the attention or something. All the evidence to the contrary is fabricated.
You know, whichever scenario makes more sense to you.
The fact that you would call the US a Totalitarian Police State means that you have very little understanding of the a Totalitarian Police State actually is.
Is the US doing things it shouldn't be (Spying on its citizens, TSA, etc.), sure. But that is far from Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany. You know, actual Totalitarian Police States.
A "Totalitarian State" strives to have total control of its subjects. A "Totalitarian Police State" utilizes the police to achieve that objective.
The states you mentioned (Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany) used violent means on a large scale to achieve such control but the US does not need to. It can use different tactics to achieve its objectives.
Let's try an example:
1) You're in elementary school. Bobby, the schoolyard bully, wants your lunch. If you don't give it to him, he and his friends will beat you up.
2) You're in elementary school. Suzy, the teacher's pet, wants your lunch. If you don't give it to her, she will accuse you of attacking her and you'll face expulsion.
3) You're in elementary school. Jimmy, the sneak, wants your lunch. If you don't give it to him, he's got a really embarrassing video of you that he threatens to put on youtube.
Bobby, Suzy and Jimmy have the same objective but their tactics are different and, depending on their intended victim, will be more or less effective.
Bottom line, the US has ways to eliminate dissent that are more subtle and sophisticated than those employed by the DPRK but are no less effective.
at some levels we still have a functioning democracy
No, you don't.
Allowing you to choose between Kang and Kodos every 4 years does not a functioning democracy make.
It would be easier for me to believe you were fighting US oppression if you stopped oppressing gay people.
Sig. Sig. Sputnik
Do US Citizens need to fear the government knocking on the door at midnight?
Yes, actually (you're just one anonymous tip away from having a SWAT team redecorate your home), but they are more scared of being accused of a crime, put on a ter'rist list, investigated for child porn possession, or sued into bankruptcy.
Different tactics, same result.
Were John Stewart or Stephen Colbert or Glenn Beck or Bill Orielly arrested for their blatant attacks of the government?
Those people do not threaten the regime. At best they are largely ignored; at worst, they may effect a slight shift in voting patterns between the Republicrats and the Demopublicans, depending on the political party they happen to rant against, which serves nicely to distract the population from the real issues.
No? Ohh ok. Then once again, I bring up that while not perfect, the US is far from the Totalitarian state some think it is.
You don't need to beat up your slaves if other methods of control are more effective.
The word totalitarian has a meaning. A country working towards gay rights is not a country that it becoming totalitarian.
Yes, it does. Allow me to use the wording from Wikipedia: "Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a term employed by some political scientists to describe a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever possible."
How exactly "gay rights" interfere with totalitarianism?
At best it has an "extreme right" and a "somewhat more moderate right"
Or a "mostly wrong" and a "disturbingly wrong", if you prefer those terms.
Why are peoples always saying bad things about usa?
They muss juss be jelous, right?
US has hollywood and has powerful bankers and mcdonalds so why you would be madz at them?
Make him tune into Canadian election coverage for a few hours...
That probably runs into problems with 'cruel and unusual punishment'.
Have you seen how Canada handles political debates? Or Rick Mercer interviewing Prime Minister Jean Chrétien? Has the State of the Union address ever been crashed by Marg Delahunty dressed as a warrior princess?
And have you seen how Canadians deal with (or at least used to deal with) US-style conservatives?
I have a lot of respect for the USA's Rick Mercer wannabes, but they would be shot at by the Secret Service if they tried any of the stunts that the Canadian press does.
The government still feels it needs to explain its actions to the media.
Yet it also feels a need to persecute people who expose some of its operations.
I mean, as opposed to just charging them with sedition and publishing it in the state owned papers as such.
You could argue that e.g. Fox calling Snowden a traitor is the same, but you won't be arrested for publicly disagreeing with Fox and calling it crap journalism.
My point is not that I agree with the actions of the U.S. I think they're violating their own constitution and playing a very unethical hand to the international community, but that comparisions of the U.S. to a police state do more to discredit a person's argument than to call people to action.
There's more to our government than just the president. Congress still has enormous influence and Americans have managed to elect some good congressmen. In fact, organizations like Wolf-Pac are pushing for a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizen's United by working entirely at the state level. Social policy changes are happening on the state level for more rapidly than at the national (gays, pot, abortion, guns, etc). So there's still a chance.
Where do you live (said the disillusioned and troubled USian whose feet are getting itchy)?
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
If you are considered a threat to national security, you can be taken off the street in pretty much any nation. The only thing that's unusual about the US is that this didn't use to happen here. And the sooner we return that exceptional status among nations, the better.
In most civilized nations, they have to provide a fair (and open) trial, observe due process, and basically respect basic human rights, even if you're a threat to national security. There are international treaties on this. It is not exceptional.
Don't quote me on this.
What the US does to other people in other countries is another matter, ranging from droning people we can't otherwise reach to the Gitmo.
As far as GITMO goes, what we have going on there are people , only some of whom WERE dangerous when we picked them up but many of whom ARE NOW dangerous (uh..duh.) and therefore are being detained. It's truly Kafakaesque but then that's what fascists like the above listed names inevitably create in their wake.
Hmm, I dunno.... This does seem to prove TFA's point....
Don't quote me on this.
Compared to being left the fuck alone, rather than have death squads and dictators imposed on their countries for the benefit of United Fruit, Bank of America, Exxon, Colt, etc. Over 100,000 confirmed dead in the tiny countries of Central America alone during the 1980s, their entire society has been destroyed and will never recover.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
They have to in the US; that's the Constitution and the law. Unfortunately, power-mad politicians like Bush and Obama are ignoring the law, and Congress is too timid to challenge them.
Other nations don't end up with camps full of prisoners of war not because they are "more civilized", but because they are never even faced with the choice; it's easy to whine and complain if you live in Hong Kong, New Zealand, or Iceland: you can leave all the dirty work to others.
As I was saying, I prefer the US to be much more isolationist. But most of the places the US intervened in were disaster areas long before the US ever did anything, including Central America.
My issue is more with the attitude of respondents with the idea of "now that Russia is complaining, you know things are bad in the US", which is just wrong. Russia has complained about the US for decades, there is nothing new here. Russia is an extremely corrupt country pointing fingers at a moderately corrupt country. The big news will be when Finland or Switzerland issue travel advisories about the US.
Anarchists are more extreme right, as much as an anti-political movement can be classified on a political scale. They believe in (extremely) small government, extreme freedom from government interference and total self-reliance.
Extreme left would be the original Marxists/communists, where the government is essentially everybody, owns everything, and all decisions are collective.
Like the Soviet Union?
I suppose some severely misguided people might be using Russia as a champion. I just think it's sad that the strongest defence of the US seems to be "yeah, but we're not as bad as Russia!"
I agree, should have been more clear on my comment. I made it after reading comments posted to others, not the actual story so it would have been better served in response to one of the many rather than a stand-alone comment.
As a Russian speaker, I can clarify a little: The bulletin warns against traveling to countries with an extradition treaty with the USA, if you have a reasonable suspicion that the US authorities have some sort of issue with you. The existence of a warrant may be unknown.