German Federal Police Helicopter Circles US Consulate

New submitter mwissel writes "The German Federal Police ('Bundespolizei') had sent out an helicopter in late August to fly over the U.S. consulate in Frankfurt and take photos from only 60 meters height — reportedly to search for spy antennae and other espionage related equipment on the building rooftops. A government spokesmen more or less confirmed the purpose of the flight, and it is said that Merkel's chief of staff, Ronald Pofalla, gave the order. This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs. There was, of course, no word about any findings. It also remains unclear whether this was just plain provocation or a PR-stunt for the upcoming federal elections in Germany on September 22nd."

Comments

But of course

[Black Parrot]

This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs.

I.e. no problem, so long as we aren't spying on him.

Re:But of course

[rea1l1]

Most countries don't try to police the world.

Re:But of course

[Omestes]

Trolling or genuine, who knows?

Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us? Also, who made our judgements the so-called correct ones? And how can we actually claim authority over international morality when we're pretty much assholes, and do pretty much everything we condemn in others?

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

Believe me, the world needs a cop. And Americans make the best ones. If not for American occupation, Europe would still be in a constant state of war. And the Soviet Union did its part also, even if they are a bit hamfisted about it. I, for one, am very happy to see somebody enforcing some law and order on the planet. I don't think you understand the condition we would be in without it. American power is keeping the peace. You should be very grateful that you can sleep as comfortably as you do.

Americans aren't enforcing law and order on the planet. They are enforcing law and order when it suits them for their economical and geopolitical interests. It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

Re:But of course

[narcc]

Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us?

Why, the citizens of that great nation, of course!

Surely, those elected to the highest offices in the land will represent the will of the people.

Re:But of course

[narcc]

It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

So ... just like the police then, eh?

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

So ... just like the police then, eh?

Not really, no. I don't know where you live but over here in Europe (at least in several countries in Europe) most of the police work is really done to enforce "law and order". Of course, there is the occasional political arrest and other police actions that are deceitful and/or manipulative, but it is the exception, not the rule.

The foreign actions of the USA is quite the opposite: You may find one being genuinely innocent, but the overwhelming majority of it is just here to server internal US interests, not "law and order".

Re:But of course

[1s44c]

Most countries don't try to police the world.

Certainly not the Germans...

That's a good point actually. The Germans, The British empire, the Ottoman empire, The Roman Empire, and many others, either learned from their mistakes or fell apart. The lesson is you can beat down all comers for a while but you can't do it forever. This is the lesson the US Empire is going to learn.

Re:But of course

[drinkypoo]

Economic prosperity depends on expansion.

You state it like a fact. It isn't.

Re:But of course

[SuricouRaven]

Depends on district. There's a lot of variation. Some areas the police are truly serving the public, others they a de facto mafia enriching themselves through theft and extortion.

Of course it's a PR stunt

[mechtech256]

Germany has a very advanced military, it could certainly get photos of the roof of a building more covertly than sending out a helicopter and making a public statement.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[DasBub]

Not even military. Germany has foreign and domestic intelligence agencies - the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) and the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz (BfV), respectively. They don't need the po-po's helicopter to check for antennae. They already know or can reasonably guess what intercept equipment is on-site at the consulate (and other sites).

If this stunt's goals were any more transparent, birds would be smashing into them with the frequency of that Hot Butter song.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Electricity Likes Me]

You realize every country in the world uses its embassies as the central headquarters for their intelligence apparatus in that country. So you know that row of embassies in Washington? Every single one of them does the exact same things or tries to. They're just not as good at it.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[cold fjord]

Every gov knows what Russia, the UK and US do with their "Consulate" floors

Oh come now A., the club is bigger than that! The majority of countries get in on the spy game at some level.
The Germans: The German Prism: Berlin Wants to Spy
Very involved in the current crisis: Assad did not order Syria chemical weapons attack, says German press
The Finns and Swedes can't be left out: Supo wants expanded net surveillance powers
Nor the French: France 'runs vast electronic spying operation using NSA-style methods'
The club is bigger still: Think US snooping is bad? Try Italy, India orCanada
Thousands of Russian spies in US: ex-CIA agent
Gordievsky: Russia has as many spies in Britain now as the USSR ever did
Chinese Spies Targeting U.K., MI5 Warns
But of course! Chinese use honeytraps to spy on French companies, intelligence report claims
Germany accuses China of industrial espionage
Germany targets Russian, Chinese spies
Spies in Sweden mostly from China, Russia, Iran
Number of Foreign Spies on the Rise in Finland
Austrian capital ‘filled with Iranian spies’
Foreign spies targeting Polish shale - Natural Gas Europe
Spain arrests three suspected of spying for Iran
Russia warns Ireland it will retaliate in spy row
FBI releases papers on Russian Irish spies in US - ‘Ghost Stories’

Sometimes the trails can get very complicated.

For some reason this video comes to mind: Its a Small World

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Torvac]

"operation roflcopter". fake news, nobody can be that clueless. and the Pofalla dude said weeks ago: "there is no spying, nsa said so. no need to investigate anything."

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[gmanterry]

Germany has a very advanced military, it could certainly get photos of the roof of a building more covertly than sending out a helicopter and making a public statement.

It is time someone made a public statement. No one seems to understand what this NSA spying means. I have yet to see anyone address the most troubling aspect of the NSA spying. The present, in power President has now got 100% access to all information about the opposition party. He can read their mail, listen in on all calls he has access to all confidential data from reporters, judges, congressmen and senators. How can his party lose? The only information the party in power does not have is mouth to ear communication and snail mail. This is equivelant to high tech WaterGate times 1000. At the close of the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin said "You have a Republic, if you can keep it". I'm sorry to say this but "We had a Republic, but it appears that we have indeed lost it". The U. S. government can not function when one political party has all the phones tapped and reads everyone's email. That is why we used to have a fourth amendment.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Read the Vienna Convention if you are seriously interested in it. Espionage from the embassy building is explicitly forbidden. And the belief that the embassy is US territory is very much wrong. All that the Vienna Convention says is that the embassy and all the property belonging to it are immune to search or seizure, and that agents of the host country may not enter without consent of the embassy staff, that's it.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[paulatz]

the right for the USA to have a consulate in Berlin comes fro ma bi-later agreement that can be retracted at any time. It is not a God-given right.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[gnasher719]

Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.

They can't. According to German law, any act happens in the country where it takes effect. Putting up an antenna that illegally monitors radio traffic on German territory takes effect on German territory and therefore is a crime that would be prosecuted in Germany. In other words, the people responsible better not leave their consulate without diplomatic immunity.

The Art of Diplomacy

[Nefarious Wheel]

The Art of Diplomacy, it is said,
is saying "nice doggy" whilst you look about
for a large enough stick.

What's a spy antanna look like?

[HockeyPuck]

How is one meant for spying different from any other type of antenna?

I realize there are different antennas for different frequency...

Unless of course there are ones that are only made for those frequencies used for espionage and not anything else... "Is this optimally made for listening to encrypted transmissions and not broadcast radio or TV signals?"

Hopefully, Fry's has them on sale in the espionage section.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[DasBub]

I'd ask the German federal police about this. After all, counter-intelligence against foreign state agencies is their bread and butter... (/snark)

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[AHuxley]

http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion2/sw_underground1/embassy.html some pics.
Try a google image search for embassy antennas for the more public pics over many years.
The more interesting work was done inside taking up a lot of space.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[chihowa]

Most if those don't look like they'd be used (or useful) for spying. They look like they're for communicating with the host country directly (not through local infrastructure). Most of them are satcom dishes and HF antennae for long distance communication.

We trust the American people...

[jamesh]

We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.

Re:We trust the American people...

[Jesus_666]

Well, most people everywhere are stupid. It's just that most governments are too inept to do real damage while the US government is inept and capable of doing real damage. That's a scary mix.

Re:We trust the American people...

[jamesh]

You do realise that the American govt is full of American people right?

Sorry. My mistake. I do trust the American government now that I know it's full of American people.

Re:We trust the American people...

[houghi]

OMG. We must warn them. It is people. It is people. The government is full of people.

It was a mistake, sorry

[TCM]

In the name of all Germans I want to apologize for this. It was a huge mistake...

...because the helicopter was missing the "YES WE CAN" banner!

Sorry.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[lxs]

They fucked Greece over by loaning them 100.000.000.000 euro that everybody knows will never be repaid? Greece has been fucked over by the Greeks. If they have a problem with the terms and conditions of the rescue package then they are free to refuse the money.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want credit both for stopping Germany from becoming a great power, and then for making germany into a great power? Just want to make sure I understand what goes on the "America Fuck Yeah" score board.

but don't pretend Germany isn't where they are today because of US support

Such arrogance, it almost boggles the mind.

The US isn't spying on Germany to undermine their sovereignty or protect them or any such bullshit, they're spying on Germany because Germany is a powerful nation with a lot of industry that's fighting for some of the same contracts that US companies. It's industrial espionage plain and simple. How the fuck to you think the whole NSA spying apparatus is financed? Through taxes alone?!

Parlament election

[alendit]

Just to give some background: Germany will have parlament elections on Sep 22nd, i.e. in 2 weeks.

Re:Parlament election

[Tom]

This.

It also remains unclear

Uh, no it doesn't. The current ruling coalition is not guaranteed to continue having the majority after the election. We will most likely keep our mother-troll, mostly because she spent the last 10 years wiping out everyone who could challenge her within her own party, but it's unclear if they can rule with their favorite coalition partner or someone else.

Of course this was a publicity stunt. Ponfalla is not in the business of stuff like this unless it is of personal important to the government.

Re:Parlament election

[Tom]

You're an idiot. The only reason this country is still standing is because we learnt during the Kohl era (her mentor, btw) how to run a country without a government, because its official attitude is basically that they're not interested in running the country.

The greatest strength of Germany is that it really doesn't matter who's in the drivers seat, because we have long removed the pedals and the steering wheel from there anyways.

If you want to understand Germany, the first thing you need to know about politics is that the central government does not matter one bit. Since Kohl, we've had 4 different parties in 4 different coalitions running the country. You need a microscope to find the changes in the actual politics.

Credit where credit is due: Everywhere but the government. The rest of the country is doing a pretty good job keeping the country running even though we haven't had an actual government for a decade or so.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:This is how

[gagol]

US used his intelligence network to help corporations win bids on big projects, against allies. Intel is more about industrial espionage then "security".

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[DMiax]

seems like an honest mistake

No suprise here ...

[Qbertino]

Ronald Pofalla is know for his - how shall I put it? - errrm, ... lack of subtleness. How the _chancelors_ chief of staff can order a _police_ helicopter to do what's basically a military/state _intel_ job is totally beyond me though.
We have these nutcase scenarios where people seem to break every rule in the book just for the heck of it. At the G8 convention in Heiligendam we had high-tech tactical bombers helping out the police gathering intel on demonstrators. ... It raised a lot less of a stink than I would have hoped for.

My 2 cents.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[allcoolnameswheretak]

Greeks are the only one to blame for Greece's problems. If you have every third guy working a public office, earning 14 salaries a year comparable to what a German academic earns and finance all of that piling up debt... you deserve to fall flat on your face.

But that didn't happen because German taxpayers are now vouching for hundreds of billions of Greek debt.
So please, shut the hell up.

Meet an old friend

[DrYak]

They're just not as good at it.

I might want to introduce you to an old friend called FSB (née KGB).

Yes, I know your currently outraged a the massive surveillance and interception network that the NSA has built itself recently. But you should probably realise that a time when those who took the decision to start this program weren't even born, there where other organisation which were already been doing it routinely.

Big surprise #1: OMG the NSA is massively spying on everyone including it own population at a scaring level.
Big surprise #2: Others have been doing the exact same for ages and are probably similarily good at it by now. (Russia and China are probable good candidates for having NSA-like infrastructures, capabilites, and gathered data)

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[Alioth]

Actually, Greece has been fucked over by the Greek government and the complicity of Wall Street. When joining the euro, Wall Street (Goldman Sachs, mainly) actively helped the government conceal the level of debt (which would disqualify them from being in the euro). The eurozone didn't do their full due diligence due to the breathless headlong rush to get the Euro under way, making it ridiculously easy for the Greeks to hide their debt problem.

And now it has come back to bite the eurozone (and the Greeks much harder) on the ass.

Re:PR stunt unlikely

[TheCarp]

> Instead, it reveals that officials have little clue about what foreign intelligence is really doing on German soil.

You really think the german government doesn't have drones? You think they couldn't buy a freaking off the shelf hexacopter with a camera and get the same intel? Do you really think they don't already have detailed photographs of that building?

This was a stunt to make a point.