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"Ballooning" Spiders Use Electrostatic Forces To Generate Lift

KentuckyFC writes "Many types of small spider release threads into the air which then lift and carry them significant distances. Biologists have found them at altitudes of up to 4 km. The conventional thinking is that the threads catch thermal air currents which then carry them away but this does not explain how spiders perform their trick even when there is little or no wind. Now one physicist says the explanation is the atmosphere's natural electric field which has an average downward-pointing magnitude of 120 Volts per metre. He calculates that a strand of silk need only gain a negative charge of around 30 nanoCoulombs to lift a spider. That explains how the spiders take off on windless days, how they reach such great heights and how several strands can lift heavier spiders of up to 100 milligrams."

38 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. Yes, But... by Atmosphereum · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does this explain how Spider-Man can shoot and then swing on webs that are attached to... what? Clouds? The International Space Station?

    1. Re:Yes, But... by deusmetallum · · Score: 4, Informative

      He lives in New York, he's always swung from the multitude of high rises.

    2. Re:Yes, But... by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's a shame that they ruin it with that - the rest of the story is totally plausible.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:Yes, But... by camperdave · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sigh! Spiderman's webs attach to skyscrapers, streetlights, bridges and the like. That's why you never see him swinging around in the suburbs. Spiderman only fights crimes downtown.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Yes, But... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He lives in New York, he's always swung from the multitude of high rises.

      I'm guessing you're a little younger than I am, because I still remember the original 1960's Spider-man cartoon. He managed to swing across the Hudson River frequently. I recall one episode where he managed to "swing" to Mexico, or Central America even. Even so, not every area in all five boroughs of NY are covered in skyscrapers you know. He lived in a single family house with his aunt.

    5. Re:Yes, But... by meerling · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're trying to work out continuity issues from an old and poorly made no budget ancient cartoon?
      You might as well complain that dropping an anvil on sombody's head will not result in a bump but will crush their freaking skull and kill them.
      Besides, Spiderman doesn't do web flight. He must not have been bit by a gossamer spider. :)

    6. Re: Yes, But... by jd2112 · · Score: 2

      I get my anvils from ACME Corp. When dropped on someones head it does result in a large bump but does not fracture skulls or cause death.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  2. Next step is testing by schneidafunk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Of course, Gorham’s ideas will need to be tested by actually measuring the charge on gossamer spider silk as it is generated. That’s an experiment for an enterprising biologist to take on."

    --
    Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
  3. Yes by Flipstylee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stories like this are the reason i frequent /.

  4. Airborne mini drones, here we come.... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 5, Funny

    This really bugs me.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:Airborne mini drones, here we come.... by Nrrqshrr · · Score: 2

      Am still shocked at this part... "Biologists have found them at altitudes of up to 4 km"
      Do you realize what this implies? One day a spider got bored and he decided to see how high he could fly... and he went 4 fucking kilometers in the sky...

    2. Re:Airborne mini drones, here we come.... by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 2

      Do YOU realize what this means? Apparently there are biologists at 4 km altitude!

    3. Re:Airborne mini drones, here we come.... by fuzzywig · · Score: 2

      No, all you have to do is work out how to get the spiders to file reports!

  5. Nature is amazing by brunes69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To me stuff like this is what proves evolution. There is no one in their right mind who could sit there and convince me that such an obtuse solution to move from point A to point B is "by design", vs. random evolution.

    1. Re:Nature is amazing by jones_supa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I sometimes tend to think the opposite: some of the evolution's achievements seem so precisely engineered that it feels more like a designer's product than test of time. Not that I would actually believe in intelligent design and all that stuff.

    2. Re:Nature is amazing by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I sometimes tend to think the opposite: some of the evolution's achievements seem so precisely engineered that it feels more like a designer's product than test of time. Not that I would actually believe in intelligent design and all that stuff.

      Most "precisely engineered" stuff that's actually engineered is still the product of large quantities of trial and error, at some level :)

    3. Re:Nature is amazing by hort_wort · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if the intelligent designer just wanted to use evolution? I've never understood why the two solutions have to be exclusive.

    4. Re: Nature is amazing by smaddox · · Score: 2

      Then he becomes a god of the gaps.

    5. Re:Nature is amazing by meerling · · Score: 2

      Spiders are arachnids, not insects. Scorpions are their relatives, not flies. Arachnids don't have wings, but they found a novel use for something they did have, that's a hallmark of evolution.

    6. Re:Nature is amazing by tobiasly · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To me stuff like this is what proves evolution. There is no one in their right mind who could sit there and convince me that such an obtuse solution to move from point A to point B is "by design", vs. random evolution.

      As a scientist who happens to also believe in a creator, I don't understand why evolution and intelligent design have to be mutually exclusive. Why can't a creator have designed evolution?

      The fact that life on this planet has undergone -- and continues to undergo -- evolution is undeniable. That doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. A system that is not only capable of propagating itself indefinitely but also continually updates itself over centuries and millennia.. now that's a pretty impressive hack if you ask me.

      A common refrain from those who want to disprove intelligent design is "this creature's adapted behavior isn't the most efficient way to accomplish this task, so therefore it was not designed by an all-knowing, all-powerful creator". Just because this spider's means of locomotion is an "obtuse solution" also doesn't mean it's not "by design".

      Who says God doesn't have a bit of Rube Goldberg in him? You're presuming that he's trying to create the perfect organism and he just can't quite get it right. Maybe he realizes that if he created the perfect spider it'll freak the hell out of his humans who will then wipe it off the planet.

    7. Re:Nature is amazing by brunes69 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are missing the point and arguing my own point.

      IE if Intelligent Design was real, then this "designer" would have given arachnids that had to fly wings, and what you think of as an arachnid would be different.

      He wouldn't have made them make these strange parachutes because it is not as efficient. This is something evolution did to solve the problem of "I don't have wings how do I move around". If the designer was intelligent it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

    8. Re:Nature is amazing by brunes69 · · Score: 2

      You're now trying to twist things around to fit into your concept of a creator.

      Saying there is an intelligent designer who uses evolution makes no sense, because the whole point of evolution is that it is random. As such, it's actually very inefficient.

      As I posted in another thread... this is like saying "why would you use math to figure out the amount of weight this can hold, when you can just guess randomly until you find a really big amount that it can hold". Both solutions work but one is intelligent and finds the OPTIMAL solution, and one is based on randomness over time fining A SOLUTION that works, but is rarely if ever optimal.

      So, if you want to sit there and still believe in a creator who is so dumb that they use evolution, then fine... but I don't see why anyone would want to believe that.

    9. Re:Nature is amazing by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Because 'intelligent design' was never a real theory. It was a legal dodge. An attempt to say 'God poofed everything into existence' without actually sounding religious.

    10. Re:Nature is amazing by RKThoadan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "not as efficient?" These seem a whole lot more efficient than wings to me. A single one-time expenditure of energy and they go for miles. There are downsides to this method of course, most obviously that they don't have any control of where they go. But if you accept that limitation this seems to be a nearly optimal method of flight.

    11. Re:Nature is amazing by hort_wort · · Score: 2

      That is like saying "why would you use math to figure out the area of that rectangle when you can just guess randomly until you find a fitting number". Both solutions work but one is intelligent.

      Scientists use the Monte Carlo method all the time. Depends on the experiment.

    12. Re:Nature is amazing by Lithdren · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm gonna preface this with the fact that I do not believe in a god or gods of any sort. But your disagreement with his opinion is sorta silly.

      Look, Evolution is fact. The Theory of Evolution is still open to debate, how it works, what impacts it, etc.

      His opinion on it seems to be that a creator could design something like a self-serving system to improve over time. Your argument is "Thats not efficent". Who says it needs to be? If God really did exist, who says he cares how much time it takes? Who says they/it would even expierence 'time'?

      In the tend, religion and things like 'intelegant design' are little more that faith based beliefs trying to take what science has shown to be true and make sense within their own religious construct. There's nothing wrong with this, even if it's not right. You're doing it right now through your senses. You're not seeing white background and black text, you're interpreting what your eyes are sensing as those colors and shapes.

      When you get down to it all you're seeing are waves of photons and a weird mish-mash of quarks and glueons. Trying to talk to someone about why their belief is wrong is like trying to explain to someone why a red apple isn't red. It wont change their world view, so stop trying. Just accept that some people see the apple as Red, while other people dont. Trying to argue against their point only lets them decide how the argument is played out, in their own terms and on their own grounds. If you dont believe, great. If you do, great.

      In the end, we're all wrong anyway, that much im certin of.

    13. Re:Nature is amazing by radtea · · Score: 2

      Who says God doesn't have a bit of Rube Goldberg in him?

      Everyone who claims god both all-powerful is not an evil, sadistic, bastard.

      A god who could create this world without killing off the vast majority of every generation of every species of every living thing (except humans after we invented science and democracy and capitalism) yet did not do so is unequivocally evil by any sane standard of morality.

      A god who could not do so is not all-powerful.

      Evolution is the most vicious, inefficient, monstrously cruel mechanism for the creation of the diversity of life you could possibly imagine, and if you want to put that on your god, go right ahead. Just don't expect me or anyone with a gram of human decency to think that your god is anything but a monster, worthy only of our hatred and contempt, because god knows that's all he has shown us.

      And again: if you claim that your had no choice but to use this hideous, genocidal mechanism to create us, you are doing nothing but claiming your god is bound by a higher power that imposes that necessity. And what value is god that's merely a beefed up space-alien with superior technology, but still limited by the laws of physics, or logic, or some other greater power that governs the whole ordinary universe, god included.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  6. Re:batman by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Informative

    The bat signal itself doesn't fit with physics.

    My parents have owned a searchlight rental business for 30 years now. For the first Batman movie they were asked to put a bat signal cutout on the searchlight to simulate the bat signal. The thing is that searchlights have too high a candlepower and the light just bends around the cutout. The light spreads more the farther away from the searchlight. It looks cool when shown against a wall, but far out in the sky it simply doesn't work. The physics of light doesn't allow it.

  7. Re:eh? by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 3, Funny

    The sky webs read "crispy bacon". Poor Wilbur.

  8. Re:120V/m - why can't we tap that by necro81 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The earth's magnetic field is almost certainly unrelated. The magnetic field is generated internally due to us having a molten iron core. This atmospheric electrical field comes from the bulk transport, separation, and friction of huge air masses - like the kind that give rise to thunderstorms. There's interplay between the two, especially during a solar storm (e.g., aurorae), but you couldn't freeze the magnetic field by tapping the atmosphere.

    As for why we can't tap that, I could only speculate. 120 V/m sounds like a sizable field - strong enough that we ought to be able to feel it. On the other hand, the E-field in an ordinary capacitor is many orders of magnitude greater (10s of volts, perhaps, but separated by just microns). You can get a greater E-field from peeling scotch tape off its roll.

    Also bear in mind that an electric field, by itself, is not a store of energy. In order to make use of that field, you need to have charge traverse that field - a flow of electrons. If we think of the atmosphere between stratosphere and ground like a giant capacitor, its stored energy is 1/2 * C * V^2. The V term might be very large (120 kV/km, squared!), but if the C is tiny, then you end up without much energy. And do not conflate power and energy: you can get quite a spark from a discharging capacitor (or a lightning bolt!) - great instantaneous power - but it doesn't last. Unless there's some source to continuously replenish the charge separation, you may not be able to tap much energy. I suspect that the available energy is very diffuse; more diffuse than, say, the kinetic energy of wind that we are able to capture with turbines. You would probably need kilometer-sized antenna arrays to capture much useful power.

  9. not an effective strategy, seems bugs can't read by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The rule in my house is that if you have more than four limbs, you are a bug , and you belong outdoors. This policy is clearly stated on the signs underneath each door.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  10. Honestly it looks more to me like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Life imitates glitching :)

    I mean this sounds exactly like some games that have double-jump and other glitches. Officially nothing is supposed to float unless it's lighter than air, but in reality there's about six (known) ways to exploit aspects of the world that were 'never intended' to end up with flight. Much like with videogame physics some animal figures out a trick, then keeps iterating until that trick is an art, then a science, and finally a way of life :)

  11. Re:120V/m - why can't we tap that by n7ytd · · Score: 2

    One household for a month, or one trip anytime into the past or future with your hovering time machine!

  12. Re:120V/m - why can't we tap that by jones_supa · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've just read that one bolt of lightning powers one household with all their energy needs for a month. I'm not too sure how accurate that is; but I think we'll need a lot more than that.

    I will try to plug the numbers in. Let's see how this goes.

    According to the physics.org toast power article, a lightning packs "over five billion joules of energy". I will round that down to 5 billion. A watt is the same thing as "joules per second". A month has 60 * 60 * 24 * 30 = 2,592,000 seconds. Then, 5 * 10^9 J / 2,592,000 s = 1929 J/s. This means that we can run the house at a constant power consumption of 1929 watts. Converted to a standard kWh number that would be 1389kWh per month.

    That's pretty much on the spot. It would indeed be enough to run a house of a small family for one month, accounting electrical heating running around winter.

  13. I don't understand how this works by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I will have to read the research article because the press article doesn't explain it. a dipole charge would not move in a linear gradient field. it would require a second order curvature to the gradient to make it move. thus it's irrelevant that the linear field is 120 v /meter. what would matter is the derivative on that.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  14. Show me an experiment by TheSync · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll believe this when someone takes some spider silk, charges it up, and it can lift an inanimate object of weight of a spider in still air.

  15. Space elevators by m6ack · · Score: 2

    I wonder if the same concept could be used to help relieve stress on the cables of space elevators? How much charge would it take to offset the weight of some amount of cable and can solve a measure of the strain problem?

  16. Easier way to test it. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

    Of course, Gorhamâ(TM)s ideas will need to be tested by actually measuring the charge on gossamer spider silk as it is generated.

    Rather than trying to test it directly, just modulate the field in a room containing such a spider.

    If the spider and its silk has a net charge you should be able to steer it around the room, land it where you want it, and measure the charge by the spider's response to the ambient field you're modulating. The attitude of the spider/silk system in the modified field will also give you the distribution of charge vs. weight on the spider and its silk.

    If the spider and its silk doesn't have a net charge it will just hang there and blow around in the air currents.

    (Of course the fanning out of the silk already proves the silk itself has a substantial charge.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way