Microsoft Takes Another Stab At Tablets, Unveils Surface 2, Surface 2 Pro

Dputiger writes "Microsoft has unveiled both the Surface 2 and Surface 2 Pro, updating the former with a Tegra 4 processor and the latter with a new Haswell chip. Among the additional improvements are a more comfortable kickstand with two height settings, 1080p displays for both devices, USB 3.0 support, better battery life, and a higher resolution camera. Pricing for the 32GB Surface without a Touch or Type Cover is set at $449."

Comments

Or alternatively

[eclectro]

"This isn't an iPad 2" and "This isn't an iPad 2 pro".

Re:Or alternatively

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I was thinking "Epic fail 2, and Epic fail 2 pro".
It is the price. They are still trying to sell at Apple prices, but MS is not, and has never been Apple. If they had released a tablet at around $300 they might have had a shot. There is a bit of a price gap at around $300.

Re: Or alternatively

[hsmith]

Yeah, but it is making them lots of money instead of losing lots of money.

Re:Or alternatively

[iamhassi]

I was thinking "Epic fail 2, and Epic fail 2 pro". It is the price. They are still trying to sell at Apple prices, but MS is not, and has never been Apple. If they had released a tablet at around $300 they might have had a shot. There is a bit of a price gap at around $300.

This. Microsoft needs to compete with Android tablets, not Apple. Microsoft needs a $199 tablet to compete with $199 Android tablets. Surface RT is still overpriced at $349. You're a software company, stop trying to make profit on hardware! Sell the hardware cheap and make the money from sales through the app store! You make the Xbox, haven't you learned anything from how console sales work yet? Or are you purposely pricing yourself far above market so you can lose money? Because that's exactly what this looks like, like you're not even trying.

Re:Or alternatively

[mlts]

MS could have just released both tablets as x86 ones, and they would have been decent replacements for primary PCs, especially if the tablets have a decent GPU/chipset.

The Surface 2 is OK, but it has to fight against well-entrenched players.

However, the Surface Pro 2 looks interesting as a primary computer, especially the one with 512GB of flash and 8GB of RAM. It won't win any benchmarks, but with the dock, it could be a decent desktop replacement, especially with USB 3.0 ports. In fact, it might have a long useful life, because it could run Windows Server 2012, Linux, or an OS of choice, and be easily tossed onto the top of a closet to act as a file or web server when it becomes too slow for mainstream software.

Re:Or alternatively

[jeffmflanagan]

Compared to Surface Pro, yes, but if the regular Surface is still running RT, it's more of a toy than the iPad.

Re:Or alternatively

[r1348]

Two words: no apps.

Re:Or alternatively

[kcitren]

I'm old school, I would never fork out money for a toy

Just because you're old doesn't mean you shouldn't still buy toys. Toys are fun.

And it gives ZERO shits about stuff the older generation cares about: battery life, FLOPS, upgrade-ability, compatibility. No, it's "brand name, shiny, glittery, light, small, does it make my buddies jealous"? That's it.

Bullshit. I'm not sure who you're referring to as the older generation, but here's my thoughts as a 35-45 year old male who interacts with these youngsters regularly. What they care about is "Does it do what I need it to do", same as you, you just need it to do different things. They care about battery life, that's why it's always mentioned. FLOPS? who cares unless the system can't perform the functions it needs to perform. Are you requirements higher than theirs? Possibly, so you get what meets your needs, they get what meets theirs. Upgradability isn't an issue for a device who's functionality is well defined and capabilities are met (this refers to ipods, not laptops), I don't feel the need to upgrade my hammer when a new model comes out. I replace my laptop about every 2-3 years, but I'm holding off replacing my current 2+ year old machine because they only thing that would improve moving to the latest model would be a 20% increase in speed, USB 3, an improved graphics card, and a slightly higher res screen. My current machine is fast enough, the graphics card is good enough for what I do, and the USB 3 isn't really an issue. The higher res screen would be kinda nice, but I'm often plugged into an external monitor, so it's not a huge deal. Since purchasing my laptop, I've upgraded the HD (three time, once to a 120SSD, then to a 240, plus added a 1TB platter) and RAM (twice, once to 8GB, then to 16). Compatibility is definitely an issue, but it's not what you think it is. The devices need to work with *their* other devices. Apple does this pretty well. What do I can about being compatible with a device I'm not going to ever need to interact with? Personally, I like open standards to ensure compatibility across *my* devices. Small and light are concerns for people who are highly mobile and carry things around a lot (i.e., students and generally young people, also frequent travelers). Shiny is nice for some, but some people want to avoid that. We were recently spec'ing out some machines for work but rejected a really good deal because we couldn't have the president of the company walking around with a shiny gold colored laptop.

Re:Or alternatively

[gunzy83]

The LeapPad probably has more apps than the Surface but that does not make it any less a toy.

Re:Or alternatively

[gstoddart]

On spec, maybe it is less of a toy ... and unfortunately, that's what people buy tablets for. Toys.

Is the tablet market grumbling and saying "gee, what we really want is something we can create a spreadsheet on"? Me, I think not and Microsoft may be missing on getting the market as, once again, the "I'm a PC" guys are talking about business uses and not entertainment.

My tablet isn't what I do my work on, it's what I take travelling with me, surf the web, find restaurants, play some stupid games, send a few emails. I didn't buy it to do 'work' on, I bought it to play with, and to use it to look up stuff in the living room or amuse myself on a plane and give me connectivity without dragging my laptop.

If what you're looking for is a small business machine, what you describe sounds pretty cool. But my tablet is more of an e-reader, video game, web surfing, play music and movies kinda thing.

So I wonder if Microsoft is doing what they've always done, and envisioned a world where what people most want to have Office and Outlook -- when what people really want is anything but Office and Outlook. They want an oversized MP3 player that can play games and surf the web and watch videos on Facebook.

They don't need to complete the TPS reports by Thursday.

Re:Or alternatively

[DaHat]

..what the fuck can you do in surface rt command line?

A good chunk of what you can do otherwise, ditto with Powershell... though there are a few interop things which are locked out IIRC (such as P/Invoking from PS).

what the fuck is the usb port good for when you have no drivers for anything?

I dunno... transferring files via sneaker-net between an external thumb drive, HD or memory card?

I'd respond to more of what you've said, but it would appear you are so hate filled that there is no point in trying much more to reason with you.

Re:Or alternatively

[cbhacking]

What can you do with the RT command line? Well, full scripting (in CMD, PS scripts are restricted), remote access (Powershell), advanced configuration (all the standard Windows CLI tools are there), and - if jailbroken - anything you want.

What is the USB port good for? All the many thousands of devices that use drivers which Windows has built-in support for. Gamepads, cameras, webcams, microphones, wired keyboards and mice, media players, phones, headsets, flashdrives, USB hard drives, printers, cellular modems, etc. There's a ton of stuff it works with.

Re:Or alternatively

[Gr8Apes]

Bluetooth keyboards are available for iPad.

And? Having an optional integrated keyboard/cover on the Surface is a far better experience than your average Bluetooth keyboard and an iPad.

The last round, those keyboards were peeling within days, if not hours. I do believe a nice solid BT keyboard made to go with an iPad cover (as integrated as Surface) makes for a much better user experience. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate surface, much like I don't hate a pile of elephant dung. I won't be near either one.

Re: Or alternatively

[exomondo]

S2Pro run Linux, really?

Yes, even the original one could run Linux, it's a Windows 8 PC with SecureBoot enabled but you can turn that off and install Linux if you want. I really thought more geeks would have done that.

Re:Or alternatively

[CadentOrange]

When you have a single developer responsible for 47K apps, I always take app store numbers from any company with a pinch of salt.

Re:Or alternatively

[nikkipolya]

Wow!! All the standard Windows CLI tools are there? I cannot believe it! Now that's pretty impressive!! It makes me won't to go right now and buy a Surface 2. And its only priced at $449? That's a steal. And what's more? It comes from the trusted good old company, Microsoft.
Who wouldn't want to buy the new surface 2 or the surface 2 pro? I would jump for it. What's more? Order your surface 2 Or the surface 2 pro NOW and we will throw in a special edition Microsoft Office Live pack for free, along with a copy of the worlds favorite text editing program, the Notepad and many more nifty freebees including the famous 'xbill' game. Hurry now!!! Call 1-800-M$-SOFT.

MS Tablet Strategy

[tgeek]

Is like a broken Coke machine . . . maybe if they keep putting one more quarter in it, they'll finally get a cool refreshing drink . . .

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[bitt3n]

Is like a broken Coke machine . . . maybe if they keep putting one more quarter in it, they'll finally get a cool refreshing drink . . .

To be fair, at least since the 70's you've needed to use the same process to get a Coke from a working machine. I'd say it's more like they jammed a fork in an electrical socket, and when they got shocked they decided they better try turning the fork around first.

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[sqrt(2)]

It's just sad at this point, watching them hemorrhage money in every hardware space except their video game console division, and even that seems successful DESPITE their mismanagement, not for any brilliant strategy. They need to refocus on their core competencies and give up chasing every market that's just not in their DNA. Give up phones. Give up tablets. Make a solid enterprise and corporate OS/Office Suite. Windows 7 is a great OS that deserves a proper successor without an abhorrent touch interface grafted onto it.

Their customers are screaming at them to sell them what they want but MS is refusing to make those products. The problem is there's a lot more competition these days. MS isn't the only game in town anymore and they can't afford to ignore their customers--which are the OEMs and enterprise.

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[Zero__Kelvin]

It's like if Ford tried to increase Pinto sales by putting a bigger gas tank in it and selling it for more money.

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[steelfood]

Actually, the way I envision it, Microsoft is on the third 10-minute break from a 6-10 night class. It missed dinner right before class, and it's starting to get hungry. There's actually a full meal in Microsoft's bag cooked by its live-in chef. But it's lasagna, and Microsoft doesn't want to disturb the rest of the class with the pungent aroma of parmesean cheese and tomato sauce. Besides, class is almost over. There's only another hour left, and then Microsoft gets to eat its dinner to its heart's desire.

Instead, Microsoft opts for a small snack, one that'd be good enough to satisfy it for the rest of class. It didn't bring one, but it saw classmates Apple and Google heading off in some direction down the hall and then coming back with snacks like hostess cupcakes and twinkies and pop tarts and pretzels and tons of other snack items. Apple and Google have been eating these little things during the previous hours of the lecture, and this made Microsoft hungrier.

So during this third, final break, as Apple and Google head to the vending machine once again for more food, Microsoft decides to follow. Microsoft hides around the corner as Apple and Google are picking up some snacks. This being night time, the lights in the halls are off, giving Microsoft the perfect environment to remain hidden. Microsoft has had a lot of practice hiding away from the plain sight of others, watching them and then doing as they did, which helps now. It waits for Apple and Google to return to the classroom, and then goes up to the machine. Microsoft sees a brand of chips it likes. Microsoft doesn't normally each chips, preferring gourmet food over small snacks inthe past, but it sees that the bag is bigger than the other bags, and it's cheaper than most of the other comparable items in the machine. So after it punches the number in, the first bag comes out. But to Microsoft's surprise, the bag promptly gets stuck against the glass. The bag of chips in question is actually too big to fit between the rack and the glass.

Now, Microsoft's standing in front of the machine, staring at it, wondering why its chips haven't fallen. From having observed others buy food at vending machines, it knows that it can just buy a second bag when the first gets stuck, and both bags will fall. So Microsoft puts in the requisite amount again and punches in the code for a second bag of the same brand. The second bag just gets stuck behind the first bag. It did dislodge the first bag a little, so Microsoft thinks this is a success.

But Microsoft hears Apple and Google coming back for some more food, probably stocking up for the next hour or so of class. And so Microsoft runs to hide around the corner again. It notices that Apple and Google see the stuck bags through the window. They point at it and laugh and wonder who the poor sap was who tried unsuccessfully to get not one, but two bags of chips. Then they put money in, punch for their desired items, and walk away with carrying their loot.

Now Microsoft is a bit angry, jealous and upset over being ridiculed, and a bit frustrated that the chips it chose is still stuck between the rack and the glass. So it puts more money in, and punches the code for a third bag, hoping that this might dislodge the first and second bags. But this does not help. In fact, no matter how many times Microsoft puts money in, nothing falls out. Everything just gets stick. After a while, even the motor stops turning.

But it doesn't matter. There are already four loose bags of chips ready to fall down, more than Microsoft can reasonably eat in the last hour of class. Microsoft has no more cash to spend. And class probably has resumed. Hungry, frustrated, broke, and in a hurry, Microsoft kicks the bottom of the machine, succeeding in only bruising its big toe. The bags of chips are still stuck. Then, after a moment of standing there thinking, even as class has certainly resumed for Apple and Google, a lightbulb goes off in Microsoft's head.

Microsoft grabs the top of the vending machine, and pulls.

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[zugmeister]

Ouch! That was a burningly, explosively painful analogy!
/ducks and drives off quickly in Corvair...

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[tooslickvan]

I have no clue what you're trying to say but now I'm hungry.

Re: MS Tablet Strategy

[davidbrit2]

The problem is if they cede the home/consumer market, the average non-IT staff member will become familiar with something else from their personal use. Now as an IT manager or CIO, you can decide to either gravitate toward what's more mainstream (assuming software vendors fill in the necessities, which is typical), or increase training spending to keep end users on the legacy platform nobody uses at home anymore. You can't make that kind of organizational switch overnight, but eventually the IT staff will also migrate toward the new popular platform, and then staff expenses will go up (I'm often tempted to learn Cobol to soak up maintenance programming contracts). It's just not feasible to turn your back on mainstream consumers and expect to maintain growth in enterprise when talking about these kind of horizontal markets.

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[nytes]

Toyota's response to the stuck throttle problem: "Next years model will accelerate faster and have a top speed of 250 MPH."

Re:MS Tablet Strategy

[nytes]

You must have carried that analogy in here with a forklift.

Key differences

[DougOtto]

The main thing that both Android and Apple based tablets have that Microsoft doesn't, is customers.

Re:Key differences

[symbolset]

Also, a non-Windows OS. I wonder if Microsoft considered selling a tablet that didn't have Windows on it? Those seem to do well.

Microsoft seems not to understand.

[intermodal]

People don't want Microsoft on their tablet. They've lost this war. Ironically, they're losing for the same reason IBM lost control of the PC: They can make all the products they want, but the software that people want runs on an OS owned by someone else.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[jedidiah]

No. It's the inverse of that. There are no legacy apps trapping people on the new platform. No one has any 20 year old Microsoft apps tying them to Microsoft's tablet.

It's an open field and Microsoft has to compete on it's own merits including all of the ill will they have generated over the last 30 years.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[vux984]

People don't want Microsoft on their tablet.

The only people that care are the ipad buyers who want to buy an ipad because its an ipad, and few could even articulate why they want an ipad instead of an alternative, except that they "know" that's the one they want.

The people buying droid tablets largely don't care that its droid. Sure, some of US do, but that's beside the point.

MS can easily take a bite out of the android market by competing on price, if they want.

MS can also go after the premium market with the competitive advantage the Surface 2 Pro has -- the ability to run windows / desktop apps.

And -yes- this IS something there is a market for. One company I work with for example has all it's outbound reps using laptops to enter sales etc. The reps are clamoring to switch to a tablet for portability etc. Sure the point of sale system vendor could come around with a web interface or ios/droid client at some point, but today that doesn't exist.

So the surface pro works for them today. Microsoft can go after and capture that market, even at 'premium' prices.

They can make all the products they want, but the software that people want runs on an OS owned by someone else.

What software is there that's exclusively on ios or droid that you think "people want to run"? Reality is people don't care about that. ipad has its brand name cachet, and droid has the open community, but the average person? Doesn't REALLY care; and the business user? Could very well see a lot of advantages to windows tablets if microsoft puts out a competent product.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[CohibaVancouver]

People don't want Microsoft on their tablet.

...anyone who works in an office environment does.

I have a Surface Pro (NOT RT. Repeat after me NOT RT) tablet at work - and it works like a charm. It's a Core i5 running Metro + Win 8 pro. Runs full MS Office and has access to all network resources. At my desk it has its desktop extended to another monitor (try doing that with an iPad) with attached keyboard & mouse. Away from my desk it's got a detachable proper clicky keyboard and a nifty stylus.

If I'm "tableting" with it and I just want to check something or watch something on the train I tap a metro tile's app and pull it up

If I need to do 'real' work I go to the Windows desktop.

All my colleagues carry two devices (iPad + Note/ultrabook PC) - I carry one. Every time I pull it out at a meeting or at the airport people say "oooh... what's *that*?" The RT noise is distracting people from what is otherwise a very cool machine.

You couldn't pay me to lug a laptop around anymore.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[Dcnjoe60]

Assuming you are correct and the droid buyers largely don't care that it's a droid, then most likely cost will be a motivating factor and many droid tablets can be purchased well below the Microsoft tablet offerings. For those that do care that it is a droid, cost may be less of a factor, but then there are most likely going to be droid features that appeal to that market segment. Either way, to the ignorant and informed droid purchaser, droid still wins.

That leaves the premium market. In this market, MS has to compete directly with Apple and one would have to specifically want an MS product to not purchase the iPad.

So, in all three markets, uninformed, informed and premium, it would appear that the only reason somebody is going to choose an MS tablet, is because they really want an MS tablet and not because of the features, price, compatability or just about anything else. That would mean they should sell well with MS fanboys, but that isn't a really good marketing strategy for long term success.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[narcc]

It's true. Most people don't care about the OS. They're buying a tablet for internet and games.

Still, even for those of us that do care, I'd happily buy a competitively priced tablet from Microsoft if it ran whatever Windows software I wanted -- and had a real stylus.

If they can get something like the Surface Pro 2 down to around $300-$400, which is really only a matter of time, I don't see why they couldn't grab a good share. Add a few other players with their own hardware and I can see Microsoft really taking over the tablet market.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[bradvoy]

Same here. I've used an iPad and an Android tablet in the past, but my Surface Pro is far more useful because it runs Office and all my other Windows apps and yet is as portable as other tablets. There are only 2 problems with it: 1. The battery life is much shorter than an iPad or Android tablet. The Surface Pro 2 should be much better in that regard. 2. It costs too much. I got mine for free, but otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. Microsoft is NOT solving that problem with the Surface Pro 2; they're going with the same pricing as the original. It needs to be at least $200 less.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[X.25]

MS can also go after the premium market with the competitive advantage the Surface 2 Pro has -- the ability to run windows / desktop apps.

And this is exactly why MIcrosoft tablets are failing.

Why do you geniuses assume that people want to run Windows/desktop apps on their tablet?

Do you realize that majority of people have exactly what they want on tablets, and don't need 'desktop apps'?

Do you want Total Commander or ACDSee or AutoCAD running on your tablet? Which, exactly, are those 'desktop' applications that people can't wait to run on their tablets?

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[fwarren]

The market has pretty soundly kicked the Surface Pro to the curb at the current price point.

I don't see anything that makes the Surface Pro 2 a more compelling device. All the "icing on the cake" that is added with new hardware features goes on top of the same "cake" that vast majority of MS customers have already rejected.

They have on "must have" features to make people leave Apple or Google hardware.
They have no "must have" software on the tablet side to make people leave Apple or Google software.
They can't compete on price. If you need windows desktop compatibility. Laptops are much cheaper.

I am predicting a big "fail" for the Surface Pro 2.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[RightSaidFred99]

Nobody has ill will towards Microsoft but dirty, angry neckbeards.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[roc97007]

I think OP is right in that droid buyers are more likely to buy a tablet to fill a specific need or set of needs, and not because it has a cute logo or a brushed metal case.

I think you're right in that if MS wants to be a premium product, it has to be a product that people *want*, not necessarily *need*.

And that's where it falls apart. People use Windows because they have no choice. This had been true for so long that Microsoft is unable to design a product under any other criteria than (a) "you'll use it because it vaguely resembles Windows (WinCE, Windows Mobile, Surface RT) and (b) "you'll take what we give you and like it, because all your apps run on our stuff". (Surface Pro/every other MS operating system). And you know, neither of those criteria are valid anymore. People are finding out they *do* have a choice, and they are exercising same.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[fwarren]

This works because of your usage case. "I need a 10 inch tablet and would be willing to run office in metro mode, and want to be able to plug a monitor keyboard and mouse into it and am willing to spend $1000-$1200 to do so."

That is NOT a large market at this time. The sweet spot for tablets is 7 to 8 inches. The display is to small to use office effectively. My CFO chokes on $1,000 plus work stations for people that need them for AutoCAD and Photoshop. Since a standard desktop computer is less than $700, that is a hard sell.

There is not a large market for $1000 tablets that would be great on the road AND as a primary workstation.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[CastrTroy]

They could premium price it, assuming they actually provided something premium. But they aren't even throwing in the keyboard, which is the one thing that makes the Surface unique. They are only now getting a 1080p screen, but even that's low resolution. The new Nexus has a 1080p screen, and is only 7 inch. Anything that's 10+ inches should have a 2048x1536. They give you quite a bit of storage on the default tablet, but a good chunk of it is taken up by the OS. If they sold something at the same specs as the Nexus 7-2, at a similar price, or the same price as the Nexus 10/iPad, but at the same price, they would probably get quite a few more sales. Instead, they're selling the Nexus 7 specs on a larger screen (same resolution) for the price of an iPad/Nexus 10. And did I mention it doesn't even come with the keyboard. They really should at least include the touch cover by default.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[roc97007]

Nod. We are both describing legacy, shrinking markets. It sounds like our only disagreement is how fast they're shrinking. I work for an ancient blue chip company, and they converted entirely to salesforce two years ago. Appears to be working well enough.

We have exactly no Windows slates. ipads are popular amongst the execs, so we struggle a little to make them usable. Shrug. Your mileage, as always, may vary, but I see a determined effort to get away from being locked into clients that only run on Windows. It has to be said, driven partly by IE6's death grip on earlier webapps, (you were on target there) and partly on Vista anxiety. (My term for the company's concern that Microsoft will continue to crap out an OS that's not a good fit in the enterprise. We're still running XP, skipped Vista, only now converting to Win7, going to skip Win8.)

We have no plan in place to even consider a pilot program to look at eventually doing anything on a Windows slate. On the other hand, we're doing operations on the ipad RIGHT NOW. Had Microsoft come out a few years ago with a product that people actually wanted to touch, things might have been different. Or maybe not; there continues to be more than one reason to back away from dependence on Windows.

Re:Microsoft seems not to understand.

[real-modo]

True, but microsoft gained dominance on the desktop by being dominant at work. ...

That was in the days when Lotus 123 and WordStar represented the very state of the art in user experience. Normal people had to be paid to use computers in those days. Those were Microsoft's glory days. And for the most part, that experience is what they associate with Microsoft to this day, helped along by BSODs, viruses, and bloatware all over their new computers. Windows: so bad, you have to be paid to use it.

Gaming, yeah, slightly different. But not all that much. MS had one game that was really loved: Flight Simulator. They killed it.

Lighting $100 bills would be faster

[JoeyRox]

If they're looking to rid themselves of excess cash.

Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[tuppe666]

"This isn't an iPad 2" and "This isn't an iPad 2 pro".

The iPad Market share of tablets is shrinking (down to 30%), they actual sell less than last year. Android are now dominant in tablets.

Current share from IDC http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24253413

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[the computer guy nex]

IDC counts shipments, not sales. The original galaxy tab was estimated by the IDC at over 2 million shipments, but later we learned it sold more like 50k. Web browsing numbers show the ipad at around 88% of marketshare, which counts actual purchased devices.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[organgtool]

Web browsing numbers show the ipad at around 88% of marketshare, which counts actual purchased devices.

No, it doesn't. It counts the number of visitors of a particular web site that have content strings that claim they are using an iPad.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[aitikin]

And I already used all my mod points...Where's that +1 Insightful when I need it...

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[Anonymous Coward]

I set my android tablet to report that it was desktop chrome because I got tired of getting shitty webpages designed to be unusable on a cellphone that were completely unusable on a tablet.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[the computer guy nex]

And unless those devices were stolen, they are actual purchased devices. More accurate than IDC shipments.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[Psyborgue]

While you and me might do that, how many users know what a user agent is, much less delve into third party browser settings to change it? There can't be enough people to mess up the numbers.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this marked insightful? Are even 1% of users spoofing their user agent string? Are 0.01%?

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[sootman]

> No, it doesn't. It counts the number of visitors of a
> particular web site that have content strings that
> claim they are using an iPad.

Yes! I'm sure TONS of people are using Android tablets or Surfaces but changing their user agents to make it look like they're using iPads. Because then it will look like iPads are more popular and then... sorry, I couldn't think of a single reason that anyone would do that. Someone who loves Apple but is forced to use a competing tablet by their employer? Seriously, I got nothing. Get a better version of a page? If anything, you change your UA to say "something on Desktop", not "something on iPad".

Even if some people are doing it, I can't imagine it's enough to throw off the numbers. "Number of people setting non-iPads to send 'iPad' in their user agent string" divided by "about 90 million" equals a very, very small number.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[93 Escort Wagon]

Why is this marked insightful? Are even 1% of users spoofing their user agent string? Are 0.01%?

No, but it made the poster feel better about his personal biases.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but it could also be that iPads are used more for web browsing, or the users pull up more web pages in the same amount of time on the web.

Re:Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[MightyYar]

No problems with that report, but 3 observations:
1. Total tablet volume shrank.
2. Apple's year-on-year iPad sales were down, but compared with an absolutely stellar quarter in which the retina display was brand new.
3. Most Android market share is in the low end where Apple has no presence at all. Most non-Apple market share is for "Others", followed by Samsung. Samsung does have some tablets which compete directly with Apple.

I don't think anyone expects apple to return to the 70% market share days. I'd be far more concerned if Apple were having trouble with margins. As it is, I think they account for almost 100% of the profit in the tablet space. At the bottom of the market, you can pick up an Android tablet for $50!

(Disclosure: I own AAPL)

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[organgtool]

That is not the point. The parent was right to smack down the number of units shipped since the number of tablets rotting on shelves is useless. However, that poster was wrong to quote a number without citing the source as well as believe that the number has any meaning since we do not know the method in which that data was collected. That number could have come from a careful analysis that only counted users once via their login credentials or it could have been from some asshole who had a blog that had eight pageviews, seven of which were from an iPad. The point is that we don't know, so his figures are just as useless as the ones in the post in which he was replying.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I think what he's getting at is that particular website may just be more popular among ipad users.

Looking at user agent statistics really is a bad way of measuring device market share in general as it can't possibly tabulate a reliable sample of users. I guarantee you for example that bing.com would report far more windows phone users than android users, whereas google.com would probably report the opposite, and I don't think it really necessitates explaining why that is.

Re: Why aim for shrinking Market share.

[Gavagai80]

It's not the user, it's the device manufacturer doing the spoofing. The user agent of my [very cheap mass market walmart] android tablet's default browser is "Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.21.10 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.4 Mobile/7B367 Safari/531.21.10". I guess they do that to get tablet versions of pages served by websites designed for ipads.

They kinda fucked up No LTE

[bogie]

Microsoft, in late 2013 just came out with 2 tablets that don't offer LTE? Oh right next year they say. Smart business move.

The people with the money to burn on these devices and a wireless plan to go along with them just want to pay once and then have connectivity everywhere without thinking. Definitely a short-sighted move IMHO.

still wrong

[Tom]

They're still missing the point, so my bet is that it'll collect just as much dust as the old one.

What MS is selling is basically an ultrabook with a touchscreen, not a tablet. They're still not getting that a tablet is an entirely different device with different needs and usage cases.

MS has never been user-aware, always developer-focussed. I'm so happy it's finally biting them in the ass.

Re:still wrong

[jon3k]

iPads are a pain to use & learn

Stopped reading right here. You're too dumb to have an opinion on the subject.

When are they replacing Bullwinkle?

[tlambert]

Bullwinkle: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.
Rocky: Again?
Bullwinkle: Presto!
Lion: ROAR!!!
Bullwinkle: Oops, wrong hat.

GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Or is it bad money, after worse?

Either way, get ready for the "great landfill contribution of 2014" from Microsoft.

Re:GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Thatcher: Charles, I happen to know you lost a million dollars on this little newspaper last year!

Kane: Yes, I lost a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars next year. You know what, Mr. Thatcher? At a rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place...in sixty years.

Cue horns: Waah waaah waaah waaaaaaaaaah.

Re:Interesting but Sorry

[Valdrax]

Sorry, MSFT, I just placed orders for 33 AAPL iPad4 on VZW LTE for my office.

ORLY? IDK why you'd do that. BYOD is the future of IT IYKWIM.

If history is any guide

[wavedeform]

If history is any guide, most people will wait for version 3.1, when it may become just good enough.

Windows does have suspend

[tepples]

I own a Nexus 7 tablet running Android 4.3, and my aunt owns a Gateway PC running Windows 8 with Classic Shell. In my experience, it takes about the same time to cold boot Windows or Android, and the same time to come out of suspend whether on Windows or Android. Are you comparing resume on Android to a cold boot on Windows?

Microsoft Make a Stab at Tablets

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

But they just can't kill the beast.

Microsoft's Inconstancy

[Stormy Dragon]

You have to wonder if Microsoft's recent history of walking away from every hardware platform after a few months is starting to take it's toll. Even if you thought their new tablet was a good product, are you going to risk hundreds of dollars on a product that will be unsupported a year later because its manufacturer can't seem to stick behind anything?

hardware vs software

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting as AC for employment reasons. A few months ago, the corporate powers gave us all shiny new Surfaces. Every employee got one, and the lines were an hour deep at times. But I would estimate as of now, 1/3 of them are still in their boxes, and only 1 in 5 are seeing regular use. The problem is that the Win8 IFKAM blinky-tile interface is a hard sell even inside the company, and 8-RT's limited auth model just adds to the confusion. Presented with an RT device in a thoroughly AD-managed environment, it's still totally unclear how to associate the Live/MSN/MSID account with a domain account, and corp versus personal-id usage. Most employees still can't explain how it works. I can't imagine how customers figure this out if the mothership can't get it right.

The real twist is that the Surface hardware is GREAT. I was a fan of the Archos android tablet design (first with a kickstand), and the Surface RT did it better. The Surface RT also kicked ass wrt build quality (partly because initial refurbs were unloaded to internal employees -- you're welcome), screen and sensor quality, speed and memory right up there with Samsung and Asus high-end arm products The Surface Pro screen is top-tier, and the performance is excellent for the form and battery life. The problem is the OS. If I could run Android on the RT hardware, I would use it every day. If I could put *ANY* other OS on the RT hardware, I would. At least on the Surface Pro you can turn off the EUFI cruft and install Windows 7 or Ubuntu or Mint or whatever else floats your boat.... If only the marketing wasn't openly hostile to the way that a lot of users want to use computers.

1080P?

[Osgeld]

My fucking nook has a 1920 x 1280 screen and cost 150 bucks

Re:Whats the market

[0123456]

For $100 more, you can get a real laptop, with a large disk and a keyboard.

Don't you mean 'for $100 LESS'?

"The RT noise is distracting people..."

[dpbsmith]

And whose fault would that be, exactly? For five months, Surface MEANT "Surface RT." Did someone hold a gun to Microsoft's head and say "Release Surface RT first?" Did someone hold a gun to Microsoft's head and say "Do Surface RT in the first place?"

Remember that portability was supposed to be one of the primary design goals for Windows NT, and it originally ran on, IIRC, Digital Alpha, IBM PowerPC, SPARC promised (but never delivered), etc. etc. If they'd stuck to their design goals, every Windows application could have been offered for Windows RT. Did someone hold a gun to their head and say "Forget portability, break your promises, ditch every platform but Intel?"

And then, having deliberately burned their bridges to everything but Intel, did someone hold a gun to their heads and say "Now release a product that isn't viable now that those bridges are burned?"

Re:Yes, but...

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

If it ran Android I'd buy it for the hardware specs it has... if only it had wifi!

If we had meat, we could make a sandwich, if we had bread...

Why I bought a Surface Pro

[Mr.CRC]

I've hated MS since I started with Linux in '93 due to a Win 3.1 data loss event. Since my last upgrade of openSuse, from 10.3 (really quite good) to 12.3, I can only describe it as "one big bug." I'm really pissed at the state of Linux desktops now, and yes I've tried others. My wife has Mint, and it's fair, but very constraining for me. I'm seriously considering Arch Linux, since their documentation is awesome. But back to the point...

When Windows 8 came out I was sure I'd never use it. I also had no interest in tablets or laptops.

But an unfortunate health situation has left me on a desperate quest for continuous mental stimulation in order to avoid agonizing sleepiness.

I decided there was one program I wanted to be able to run while out: LTspice.

Plus, I just don't have time to waste on Linux desktop shoddiness anymore. And I'm willing to pay money for it. So I wasn't willing to futz around with a Linux laptop. I needed a tool, that works out of the box. Remarkably, I even opened my mind to the thought that if I have to learn a UI and OS that I'm not used to, so be it, if it WORKS rather than being a bug-ridden piece of garbage that reveals 2 or 3 show-stopping bugs within the first few minutes of tinkering.

That USED to be my experience with everything MS. I'd lock up Word within minutes, even though I only touched it for 30 minutes per year to edit a specific corp. doc. Now however, the tide is turning, and it's Linux desktops that I can find hideous bugs in within minutes. Anyway...

I ruled out ultrabooks because I want something flat so it's not obvious when I'm at a restaurant with my wife that I'm looking at a screen instead of her. She is Ok with whatever I do, but I feel more comfortable NOT using a laptop in that situation. Plus, a CAD-like program with a laptop touchpad sucks. I started thinking that a touch tablet with an optional keyboard might be a workable solution.

After reading about countless options, I went to Best Buy to look at the Surf. Pro, and the guy there actually let me install my program on their demo!

I wound up buying one at the MS store in Palo Alto. What an experience! They sure treated me nice. They threw in Office Home+Student for free with the extras I bought. I don't mind having that despite all my docs. being in OO.org format, since many Word docs just don't work well in Open/LibreOffice.

To sum it up, the thing is completely satisfactory. The build quality seems superb. The digitizing pen is kick-ass. And I can do just what I wanted, which is to be able to do everything CAD-ish in tablet mode, with the keyboard as a backup in case I need to do more extensive typing. The MS touch keyboard on screen implementation is very good, including handwriting recognition. It is also plenty fast.

Windows 8 at first seemed completely incomprehensible. I could write plenty on how stupid MS was for the way they went about releasing this. For a desktop without touch, Windows 8 just doesn't make sense. I'm still planning to have nothing to do with it on my desktops. But on the tablet it is actually Ok, and kind of fun to be using something new that's also understandable (once you begin to "get it.")

Unfortunately, my wife's Android tablet touch screen just doesn't respond to my dry fingers. It's the strangest thing. I just can't get it to "go" at all. No such problems with the Surface Pro. I'm extremely happy with it.

There are some things I don't like, but they are mostly avoidable, such as MS's desire to tie everything in to a "Microsoft account." Well, in today's Orwellian age, I wouldn't plan on putting much personally relevant info on ANY mobile device, except maybe a Blackberry.

So, still no MS fanboy here. But they won the sale because they had the tool that best met my needs, albeit somewhat niche ones. I'll probably buy a Surface Pro 2 if the price is reasonable, and give my wife the original, or just have a spare. We'll see. I'm also eager to upgrade it to

It is sad ....

[jotaeleemeese]

.... that even the astroturfers are not trying to prop up this debacle.

Slashdot isn't the same without them.