Slashdot Mirror


Utility Sets IT Department On Path To Self-destruction

dcblogs writes "Northeast Utilities has told IT employees that it is considering outsourcing IT work to India-based offshore firms, putting as many as 400 IT jobs at risk. The company is saying a final decision has not been made. But Conn. State Rep. and House Majority Leader Joe Aresimowicz, who is trying to prevent or limit the outsourcing move, says it may be a done deal. NU may be prompting its best IT employees to head to the exits. It also creates IT security risks from upset workers. The heads-up to employees in advance of a firm plan is 'kind of mind mindbogglingly stupid,' said David Lewis, who heads a Connecticut-based human resources consulting firm OperationsInc, especially 'since this is IT of all places.' The utility's move makes sense, however, if is it trying to encourage attrition to reduce severance costs." Because it's worked so well for others in the past.

49 of 478 comments (clear)

  1. Just a moment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just finishing my last trojans and timebombs...now they can fire me.

    1. Re:Just a moment! by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just finishing my last trojans and timebombs...now they can fire me.

      Just outsource your mayhem coding, it's cheaper and quicker.

    2. Re:Just a moment! by eth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just finishing my last trojans and timebombs...now they can fire me.

      You don't even need anyone to do that. My experience is that competent IT people can pretty easily find a new gig - and they will, now, before all the good local openings are taken. The deadwood that's left has the potential of causing just as much damage accidentally or out of ignorance as someone malicious.

    3. Re:Just a moment! by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The deadwood that is left? You must not have experienced Outsourced IT.

      The sheer incompetence of the outsourced IT will do far more damage. It's amazing how clueless and completely useless most of these offshore companies are.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Just a moment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's amazing how clueless and completely useless most of these offshore companies are.

      Not really. You get what you pay for.

    5. Re:Just a moment! by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That depends on who you outsource it to. We have some of our stuff outsourced (can't have all due to regulations) but our outsourced guys are better than are local IT staff in most cases. But they are more expensive that the local guys to. They're outsourced not to save money, but to make the department more agile. They can have 20 guys today and 50 next month if they want. There is really good outsourced IT, it's just not going to save you any money if it's good.

    6. Re:Just a moment! by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That reminds me of waaaaay back when I needed a backup solution that could handle a crap-ton of small files. The DOS and Win3.11 backup programs were limited to 65,536 files in a backup set. I asked a friend who worked for a backup company if they had anything that didn't suck. He said their new Win95 product could handle all of my files in a single backup set but, in a nutshell, it sucked. It would work but I'd be annoyed with it. Their OS/2 product was about to get a major upgrade and would be able to handle all the tiny files but it wasn't done yet. "I'll see what I can do."

      A few days later, he handed me a floppy and said, "It compiled. Past that, you're on your own." Used that for a couple years until we upgraded to DAT and new software, also written by his company but an actual product this time licensed and everything.

    7. Re:Just a moment! by gweihir · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The worst thing I found in code produced by "quality" outsourcing was a quadratic sort in Java to remove duplicated form the result of a database query that could have arbitrary result size. I do not think this can be made in a more stupid way that still works on (small) test cases. (1. sorting is done O(n log n) by anybody competent 2. duplicate removal is done with hash-tables. 3. Java has integrated hash-tables 4. the database could just have been told to deliver only unique values in this case.) The project had cost a two-figure number of millions at that time and was scrapped 2 months after my report. When I discussed this issue, the technical project lead mentioned that on larger test data they had observed very bad performance. Funny thing is, I was not even looking for anything like that, I was looking at security issues with the interfaces when I see this nested loop that looks suspicious. In essence I saw this out of the corner of my eye while browsing for a method header and then spent 5 minutes on it because it looked wrong.

      But, get this: It was the 3rd time they tried to solve this problem with outsourcing, it was a replacement for a critical part of their infrastructure and it was still the same guy in charge that had messed it up two times before. And that is the real issue: Unsurpassed stupidity in local upper management.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:Just a moment! by MyLongNickName · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am glad this got modded "insightful", but the more likely outcome is that the most marketable folks already have their job opportunities lined up and only those without marketable skills (aka dead weight) are the ones who will stay with the company. Even if IT is outsourced, they will keep some folks, and the least competent ones are the ones that will fill those spots. And if they don't outsource, they've lost their top players.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    9. Re:Just a moment! by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When you hand over your coding too the lowest bidder, who recovers all their costs in the first few claims for payment, leaving them in profit long before project collapse, all so some moron bean counter can claim a major bonus on a pretend saving, well, do I need go further. This of course is the governments failure, some regulations should be in place to heavily fine and imprison executives for failures in essential infrastructure due to stupid decisions. There should be some serious penalties for taking stupid risks with essential infrastructure.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    10. Re:Just a moment! by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      - - - - - They're outsourced not to save money, but to make the department more agile. They can have 20 guys today and 50 next month if they want. - - - - -

      And how exactly does that magic work? 30 people who are not only highly technically competent but who understand the intersection of business and technology unique to your organization just sitting around waiting for the call? Like the fire dept?

      Somehow, it has never really worked out that way any time I have seen it tried. And I've been on the receiving end of many a call from recruiters (ironically now themselves offshored) desperate to "fill this req by tomorrow morning" for minimum-dollar staff augmentation subcontracts to EDS, etc. $25/hr to the subcontract technician billed at $75/hr to the contractor billed at $150/hr to the client. Very agile.

      sPh

  2. Let me be 1 of the 1st here by djupedal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    . . .to re-emphasize how bad of a decision this will become if put into effect. The issues waiting to occur have been well documented many times here, so I won't bother with them in detail. And know I won't take any satisfaction in saying I told you so later . . . well, maybe a little.

    1. Re:Let me be 1 of the 1st here by cavreader · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would have thought every IT professional with a pulse would now know that outsourcing development or support always ends in a gigantic cluster fuck.

    2. Re:Let me be 1 of the 1st here by jftitan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm waiting to see this all unfold.

        WHat is going to happen is. Pissed off IT people leaving problems for the next guy. The Next guy is from India, so getting that guy to fix it is going to be a nightmare. THEN, after months, maybe years of total upswing in costs to keep the fires at bay, the company will say they are insecure. So very insecure, that politicians will use NU to show how America needs to spend so much more money on Private utility due to insecurities. (As if they were not already saying this)

        After NU succums to failure, it will be bought and sold. We'll hear about the same problems as before, and the blame will be all about foreign cyberwar.

        I could write the book on this, but I think a Tom Clancy book has me beat.

      --
      "Don't Forget to Salt the Fries"
    3. Re:Let me be 1 of the 1st here by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On occasion, if the power company fucks up badly enough, there are consequences . Frankly, regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to give the IT staff advanced notice (it wasn't) offshoring your IT in New England will likely come back to bite them in the ass in the winter. It's not like there are snow and ice storms that would interrupt power and communications and the ability to remotely connect to IT systems, after all ...

    4. Re:Let me be 1 of the 1st here by catmistake · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't be so quick to dismiss outsourcing as an option. IMO, its a great idea... but they're doing it all wrong. Domestic, in-house IT has been commoditized, and a reasonable, rational ceiling has been established for all positions. The money spent there is not waste, and not outrageous. Looking in that space to cut jobs to save money won't work. Its the same as saying "those cafeteria workers are sucking up all our profits... let's outsource!" I can't believe anybody actually believes the bull that flows from the top. But if they'd outsource every single executive and upper-management position, including boards of directors, they'd not only save so much money that their stock would skyrocket, pleasing investors, they'd have better educated, more ethical individuals working for far more reasonable salaries doing a much better job driving the company to bigger success in the short and long term. The shareholders need to stand up and demand that they outsource the suits and PHBs, if they have any sense.

    5. Re:Let me be 1 of the 1st here by gweihir · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not necessarily: If it is domestic high-quality outsourcing, you know the people personally and there is a long-standing connection, it can work. But off-shoring basically never works and a cultural gap ensures that. Same wit off-shoring to China. I have seen some stellar examples of software stupidity coming from there, and these were Chinese people in China hired as regular employees by a large US IT company. I have never seen so many obvious beginner's mistakes in any cryptographic software before.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  3. Ok by The+Cat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Publicly traded utilities should be prohibited from hiring foreign companies to perform these kinds of jobs, in much the same way those companies are also prohibited from hiring foreign attorneys, architects, construction companies, doctors and certified accountants.

    Almost all utilities are regulated industries, since they enjoy government-enforced monopolies. They should not be allowed to leverage taxpayer-subsidized market exclusivity in order to engineer the destruction of those same taxpayer's careers.

    This applies equally to cable television providers, ISPs, gas and water companies.

    1. Re:Ok by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Lawyers, doctors, and construction unions have better & more lobbyists than IT workers.

      We live in a bribocracy. Pay up or be economic road-kill.

    2. Re:Ok by amiga3D · · Score: 4, Funny

      They have a right to those monopolies. By cutting costs they are able to deliver services to the taxpayers at a reduced rate. Everyone knows that when they cut costs they drop rates?

    3. Re:Ok by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not sure what your point is.

      Generally, the wealthy buy protection from competition and taxation (havens and loopholes), while the rest take the blunt impact of offshoring face first. It's one reason why inequality is ever increasing (even with a "socialist" prez.)

  4. Never Never Never out source IT by Murdoch5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Outsourcing IT will only save you money and nothing else. Having a fair amount of experience in IT I already know the challenges faced between the geeks and the normal staff, now throw a thick Indian accent with horrible English on top of that combined with absolutely no skill and computer guided scripts they can't read, you'll be lucky to have a company at all after 2 months. Outsourcing has got so bad that unless I can talk to a Caucasian, with no accent, who is intelligent and well versed in what I want to know, I'll hang up the phone or ask for another person. It's not racism or anything stupid like that, it's purely the fact that 99.9999% out the people who work in these outsourced call centers know absolutely nothing about what they are working on and 98% of the time they can't understand English well enough to understand the problem you want to get across. I say no to outsourcing, it's a cancer to a company, it's make employees hate going to work or having to ask for help, it makes tension grow well at work and it makes everyone hate having to deal with anything.

    1. Re:Never Never Never out source IT by haruchai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In India, working it IT? Not so easy to find.
      I'll will say their written English is quite excellent so I've always tried to deal with them by e-mail or chat.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re:Never Never Never out source IT by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Informative

      To a Southerner, Briton, Jamaican or Australian they definitely have an accent. It's impossible to speak without an accent. You're confusing "no accent" with the General American accent. It's considered as neutral of an American accent as you can have, and is widely used in broadcasting. It is, nevertheless, an accent.

  5. Can't fix stupid by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    When Dell outsourced it's help, I tried it a few times, and it was almost impossible to understand "Chris" and "Bob". So I just never bought another Dell product again.

    It just doesn't work.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re:Can't fix stupid by sribe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When Dell outsourced it's help, I tried it a few times, and it was almost impossible to understand "Chris" and "Bob".

      Wouldn't have mattered. I guess I'm better with accents, because I understood them perfectly. But they were flat-out lying to me (on two different issues, several years apart) so the outcomes was the same for me as for you: determination to never buy a Dell product again.

    2. Re:Can't fix stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a former US-based Dell phone support technician, I can tell you it's not US vs India. It's "follow the fucking script and get the customer off the goddamned phone in less than 8 minutes or you're fired." Metrics were a bitch.

  6. Advance warning may be the best idea by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As an IT professional, what angers me is mostly management lying and claiming everything's hunky-dory and then blindsiding me with layoffs. When they do it even once, it convinces me that I can't trust them ever again. That's not a problem if I'm one of the ones being shown the door, but companies rarely lay off everybody in a single pass and this creates if anything even worse trust issues with those who're still working. At the very least this behavior will turn me from someone who considers it only professional to give as much notice as possible if I decide to go elsewhere into someone who a) doesn't feel obligated to give any more notice than legally required since the company's shown that's what they'll do and b) is more likely to start looking before he gets caught in the next round of layoffs. Whereas if the heads-up is given, I'm less likely to worry and be looking to jump ship because I know I'll have advance warning next round too.

    That no-advance-warning is only a good idea if you can't trust your IT people in the first place. And if you can't trust them, why are you trusting them to run your IT department?

    1. Re:Advance warning may be the best idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here are the facts Todd.

      1: Northeast utilities is a regulated power company, outsourcing anything but the "build it there, use it here" shit (Transformers, regulators, software, hardware, etc) WILL get you in SERIOUS Shit with your local government 5,000 ways from Sunday not just from the IT Security standpoint but also from the downtime-is-not-acceptable standpoint.

      2: A 10k man company with 400 IT Staff probably means they aren't secure anyway because they haven't updated shit in years. 1:25 is seriously out of what IT to Employee ratio and IMO, they deserve to be replaced if they are that lazy. 1:50 to 1:100 is much more reasonable.

      3: Outsourcing doesn't work; nobody is ever happy with the results, which are often catastrophic.

      4: This stinks of control fraud. The moment management begins acting like they are committing control fraud, leave.

      Fraud starts with big companies undergoing mergers and acquisitions; execs and investors get payoffs as the bag is passed from sucker to sucker. Execs receive multimillion dollar golden parachutes and leave while bringing in bright shiny new people to take their place (the suckers) who try the same game over and over; the last set of managers are the bag-holders, and they don't get to leave so easily. Money is somehow lost in bad deals, or outright fraud (we bought $1,000 hammers, oops).

      Ultimately the objective is to asset strip the company and the people within the company by diverting revenue to executive and investor payouts. Asset stripping people means they reduce your pay, remove your job title, let other people go and see if you can do what they did (we made them redundant), and so on. Properly operating companies don't play games like this; they do not hire unless they have to, they solve problems permanently where they can, and they motivate employee's with revenue (stock options, 401k, no hocus-pocus ponzi shit either, real cash externally held from the organization) because they know "thank you" has always gone as far as "fuck you" and paying peanuts means you get peanuts in return. If "The economy" was really an issue, workloads would go down and then they'd get rid of people in the appropriate departments.

      This manifests as I don't care disease which is the result of plain burnout. The rot shows up as employee's not giving a shit and getting away with it (they are not paid enough to care or are not motivated to care, plus their boss is a sucker and just plain stupid). Money gets flushed down the toilet. When burnout starts to show up, and outrageous waste begins to show up (start job searching, be VERY particular).

      Once you see the "we need you to do the job of 3 people" crap start, get your foot out of the door. When you leave, let them, their boss, and their bosses boss (right up the chain to the exec) know in no uncertain terms the reason and that there are no excuses.

      Truth is with Northeast, The good ones left a long, long, long time ago.

    2. Re:Advance warning may be the best idea by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A manager that thought I was a happy worker-bee was totally blindsided by my 2 weeks notice once. This was a manger that I generally consider one the best I have ever worked for. (Lost points for not realizing I did not like my job.) I like the man and am still friends with him today. And yet I still did not give any warning whatsoever, and gave no possibility of a counteroffer. It wasn't him that I did not trust, it was the giant evil company we worked for. I could not even trust to let him know off the record that I was on the way out the door. The company had a habit of laying people off and outsourcing for no good reason, and although my job was perfectly secure, enough was enough. Giant changes in the company were always a massive blindside to the employees. Employees are no more than pawns, cut a few hundred jobs to make the profit margin look better. Who cares if those that remain could not possibly handle the workload.

      No, I am not bitter, even though it sounds so. I am just happy to no longer work for the giant evil company.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  7. Why would you even? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why would you outsource like this? It would mean:

    1) Different timezones - cannot communicate in realtime;

    2) Different culture - harder to understand requirements;

    3) Language barrier - even in the unlikely event that the developers all speak excellent Indian English, it is *not* the same as Americna English;

    4) Lack of face-to-face contact - being able to watch someone communicate, point at the screen, sit in a room together makes for far faster problem resolution;

    5) Lack of mutual value - a permanent employee is entirely your investment, and in return works and trains only on your systems, dedicating their work day to understanding what you need, and spending years at your company becoming intimately familiar with your processes;

    6) Lack of open-ended requirements - this is one of the most important things of all: all contractors bit you in the ass by working to spec, whereas permanent employees will be there to do whatever you want, when you want it.

    In short, paper estimates of monies saved by outsourcing are always - without exception - a crock of shit. Someone wants a hefty bonus, possibly by fooling executives re apparent saving, or possibly because they have an interest in the outsourcing firm. Most likely both.

    1. Re:Why would you even? by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it's that in house IT people constantly frustrate them by telling them why the stupid shit they want to do wont work. The foreign center will simply go "Okay, if that's what you want." This is usually why outsourcing IT doesn't work. Someone in house wants the company to survive because he's invested a decade or so of his life to it while the foreign unit simply works as a contractor and has little interest in the firm he services except to collect the fee.

    2. Re:Why would you even? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      royally screwed - and not in the good way

      So Elizabeth, not Kate?


      Queue the Brits w/ mod points ...

  8. "Mind-Bogglingly Stupid" #2 by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's also not a very bright move when you consider that former offshorers have been pulling their operations back to the U.S. in droves.

    Over the course of the last few years, on the international software contract boards, I have more and more seen posts that say such things as "N. America or Europe Only" for hire.

    There have been way too many bad experiences with offshoring. The main complaints have been: [A] Overselling (i.e., the person or firm really had little or no experience in the particular specialty involved), [B] inferior work, and [C] incomplete work (project simply abandoned after a couple of initial payments).

    When other corporations are changing direction in a big way, why would they choose to do this? Are they unwilling to learn from the mistakes of others?

    1. Re:"Mind-Bogglingly Stupid" #2 by geek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IT is not a revenue generator. Executives right now are in a pinch to justify their ridiculous salaries by ever increasing profits in one of the worst economies in US history. My company just announced a 5% cut in employees across the board. Luckily, the dumb fuck execs realized they cut IT so badly over the last 7 years that they can only cut 2.5% from us. Of course, the only people immune from the layoffs are the execs, who not only got raises this year but have actually multiplied like fucking rabbits. I counted 6 new VP's this year alone.

      So yeah, IT doesn't make them any money so guess who gets shit on?

    2. Re:"Mind-Bogglingly Stupid" #2 by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Informative

      "IT is not a revenue generator."

      Wrong. IT very much *IS* a revenue generator. It's just not an obvious revenue generator.

      Most modern businesses of any size cannot operate long without some form of IT. And if their business does not operate, there is no revenue. Strictly speaking, the only thing that "generates" revenue is sales. Depending on your point of view at any given moment, EVERYTHING else in the company could justifiably be labeled as an unnecessary expense. Including the CEO's paycheck.

      I've seen this often before. They're cutting their own throats. They may not know it, because what IT does not show up on the books as a positive, but that's what they're doing.

    3. Re:"Mind-Bogglingly Stupid" #2 by geek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're a fool. IT is infrastructure and an insurance policy when/if something goes wrong. IT does not produce anything, they do not sell anything, IT has no product for which a customer will pay. That in the eyes of an exec is a drain on the company and therefore will always be the first to get cut when they need a new yacht.

      Keep deluding yourself that IT is a revenue generator. Try pitching that to the VP of IS/IT while he stares at the spreadsheet showing the hundreds of thousands of dollars you requested that quarter to upgrade XYZ.

  9. Executive pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Note that due to the various interlockings of the various utilities operated by Northeast Utilities, it is next to impossible to know how much people like Bill Quinlan are pulling out of the company, but according to one report, the executives at CL&P (connecuit light & power) get paid 11.2 million. Replacing 400 IT jobs with a contract to India will probably save less than the executive salaries, it is good to be at the top in a modern american company. Bill is a freaking attorney, pulling out about $4 million per year from the rate payers for making such hard nosed decisions as putting 400 americans out of work. Nice guy!

  10. Re:Middleman by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hardware from China and software from India.

    MBA's from the US
    Judges from Italy
    Maple Syrup from Canada

    and

    Putin from Russia to oversee the project on horseback.

    It's a small world, after all....

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  11. There Aughta Be A Law by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seeing as how vital utilities are to our Nation's livelihood and welfare, I can't possibly see any scenario in which outsourcing the IT duties to any Foreign National should be considered anything but a gigantic security risk. It's no secret that any given network on the electric grid can cause widespread outages beyond it's customer base. Congress needs to pass a law requiring all Utilities to employ their own IT departments comprised of US Nationals on US Soil.

  12. Security through outsourcing? {sigh} by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why did this part only make it to page 3?

    One issue that has yet to arise is whether offshoring the utility's IT services would create long-term security risks, particularly if work is moved offshore.

    Of course it does. IMHO, IT shouldn't be outside of a secure environment's walls. Even with "good" IT people, when they can VPN in from home computers and do things, it can compromise the security of the network. When your entire shop is off-shore, there's no one standing guard to make sure things are safe.

    The risks are huge. It can range from malware on a workstation, to malicious actions by a 3rd party or employee.

    The "what could possibly go wrong" goes from the confines of their office, to ... well ... the whole world.

    I'm surprised DHS hasn't said no to this. They're worried about critical infrastructure, including power utilities, being compromised by outside attackers. When all the work is being done by someone other than in-house staff, it's inviting exactly that kind of trouble.

    I guess "best case" here is that they're trying to get a bunch of people to quit, so they can get fresh locals in for less pay, screwing the existing staff in the process.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  13. part of the formula by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There really is a reason why companies make the announcement ahead of time before outsourcing. Really, there is. It's part of the formula. The outsourcing company sells the patsy... client, sorry. Sells the client on the idea that the client tells their employees that they're planning to outsource, so that the employees can then be directed to spend their remaining time in documenting their jobs well enough that an untrained person in a third world country could do the job.

    The outsourcing company will insist on this, and the sap, ur... client for God only knows what reason will think this will actually work, and the employees will go "sure, yeah, that's what I'm doing with my remaining time here. Sure. Not spending my entire shift looking for a job in a down economy. No sirree. My job doesn't take any original thought, creativity, or diagnostic skills, it's just a lot of button pushing and answering questions. Here, let me print out ... say ... everything in My Documents. That should stack up real nice."

    ...so all the regular employees exit carrying their sad cardboard boxes, cutover occurs, and it's a disaster.

    ...and the outsourcing company says, it's all the abused spouse's... there I go again! Sorry... it's all the client's fault, for not documenting their processes well enough. And for some reason the client will BELIEVE THIS ALSO. So the outsourcing company will say, we can't do this job as originally bid, it'll require many more 3rd and 4th level people (IE, people with actual skills and experience) and will cost more. A lot more.

    Five years later, the outsourcing company will assure the chump... what's wrong with this spell checker? CLIENT. The client, that the break-even point is just around the corner, really it is, and will volunteer to help sell this concept to the board. Meanwhile, the victim's argh... client's business has suffered, it's harder to do even the smallest office task, change in any reasonable amount of time is impossible, and employees are saying things like "for God's sake, please don't make me call the helpdesk".

    And this will be called Progress.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:part of the formula by Livius · · Score: 3, Funny

      In fact the employees will carefully document everything about their jobs, and even in a fit of generosity, their previous jobs, in a summary (or résumé, as the French say). They may even have other employers proofread it to get an objective measure of how clear, thorough, and concise it is.

  14. Re:Middleman by bmo · · Score: 5, Funny

    >>Hardware from China and software from India.
    >MBA's from the US
    >Judges from Italy
    >Maple Syrup from Canada

    CHANTING CHORUS: Oil from Canada! Gold from Mexico! Geese from their neighbor's back yard! Boom, boom! Corn from the Indians! Tobacco from the Indians! Dakota from the Indians! New Jersey from the Indians! New Hampshire from the Indians! New England from the Indians! New Delhi from the Indians! ...
    BABE: Indonesia for the Indonesians!
    SOUND: Cannon shot.
    JOE: Yes, and Veteran's Day ...
    DC: But we couldn't do it alone!
    SOUND: Morse Code sending under.
    JOE: No! We needed the Hope, the Faith, the Prayers, the Fears ...
    DC: The Sweat, the Pain, the Boils, the Tears!
    JOE: The Broken Bones!
    DC: The Broken Homes!
    JOE: The Total Degradation of ...
    BABE: Who?
    EDDIE: You! The Little Guy!

    --
    BMO

    LURLENE: Where are you from?
    BABE: Nairobi, Ma'm. Isn't everybody?

  15. Re:Meh, it all works out for the best by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hostess didn't come back, they liquidated.

    All of the rivals of Hostess that didn't go bankrupt are the ones ressurecting the brands that were put in limbo by their failure.

    IT talent in New England still have to pay New England rent prices and still have some money left over for food.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  16. those of us who know by rubycodez · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here are the problems outsourcing to India in particular incurs, as those of us who have seen it done again and again since the early 90s know:

    1. data *will* be stolen and sold for spamming and marketing and data mining
    2. no way to ascertain true credentials or abilities of any person, paper diploma/cert mills are rampant
    3. no real legal venue for theft, non-performance, copyright and patent violation, shoddy product or workmanship
    4. any disputes will immediately trigger the cultural response of obstructionism, picayune arbitration, and malicious compliance
    5. supposed "experts" regurgitate "white paper" knowledge but have no experience or ability in practical application
    6. if any project gets done at all, it will be at three times the projected duration with two times the people.

    In short, those who outsource to India deserve what they get. And what they will get is expensive failure.

  17. Fun story from today about outsourced IT.... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Oh oh oh! I can tell a story!
    I'm part of the support dept of a big cloud-service company. As a result, I'm supposed to help customers with their problems with our service. Two weeks ago, I ran into a request from a customer about white listing our IP addresses. Turns out they outsourced their IT department to one of the big outsources, with "Sam", senior network engineer with 20 years of experience, in charge of the problem. Here's what I ran into:
    * guy doesn't read documentation I send him
    * guy doesn't listen to what I tell him about our infrastructure
    * guy demands we put him in touch with our network engineers because he doesn't like talking to anyone put network engineers
    * guy spends a week demanding to talk to our network engineers, and ignores everything we send his way.
    * guy suddenly asks a question we answered a week ago, and is finally good to with his whitelisting project.
    * guy makes change to his VPN, and end-users on VPN suddenly can't reach our service. But his users on their regular internal network are fine. Guy demands again to speak to a network engineer on our side.
    * guy spends a week asking for a network engineer on our side, without doing a single investigation on his side.
    * Today, guy suddenly gets an epiphany that there might be some configuration on his side that might cause packets to not be delivered to his VPN users.
    * problem suddenly gets fixed.

    So after two weeks of Mr. Senior Networking Engineer with 20 years of experience doing diddly squat to resolve something that was obviously a configuration issue, making all kinds of stupid demands, asking questions that either were nonsensical or already answered and escalating the issue to the c-suite on all sides, it turns out that he didn't check his own configuration. Not fucking once. I was ready to fly over to where ever he was hiding and cattle-prod him into doing some work.

    In the meantime, yeah, I'm going to enjoy tomorrow's call.

    This story, combined with pretty much 90% of my other experiences with outsourcing IT to India, has me convinced that this is probably the single worst thing a company can do. On the upside, I'm pretty sure I have little competition from Indian outsourcers.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  18. Don't be so complacent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Lots of Western programmers and IT workers convince themselves that their jobs and their industry are safe because of the low quality of outsourced IT from India. I think this is dangerously complacent.

    First of all there are many, many incompetent programmers working in the US and Europe. Do you think that all the snippets on TheDailyWTF were written by Indians? Do you think the numerous examples of crappy, bug-ridden production software, going back to the start of software as an industry, are all done by Indians? Huge, wasteful, disastrous public IT projects, many cancelled at huge expense without any working deliverables, all cocked up by Indians?

    Secondly, even if many outsourcers in India do provide low quality work, this isn't always going to be the case. There is no inherent reason why an Indian should be less good at programming than an American. Many Indians working in the US (not to be ambiguous, people with Indian nationality who went to high school there, not American-born people of Indian origin) are extremely successful and well-regarded by their peers. There might be some factors which have historically meant that the US produces more extremely talented programmers than other countries, including many Western European countries. However, these advantages will all erode in time. The top tier of Indian technical education is world-class. India is doing huge amounts of cutting-edge research in math, CS, all the things that feed down to more balanced and clueful hackers. India's middle class is expanding and many more Indians will soon have the benefit of good colleges. There are lots of Indians who have either studied or worked in the US and have been exposed to US IT culture and working practices returning to India to set up businesses and teach. The huge amount of IT workers, even though many might be doing drudge work, means that India will develop its own culture. All these people are keen to develop themselves to become more knowledgeable and better paid. People make fun of clueless Indians on technical forums, but they are forgetting that these were for the most part young kids or people with none or very limited education, trying to emulate their better paid peers by teaching themselves to program in their spare time. Their US analogues are in general not on these forums asking even stupid questions, they are playing console games and doing drugs. The companies involved are also aware that they are getting the cheapest share of technical work done in the West, and are keen to develop their companies and workers so that they can compete with more skilled and higher paid domestic workers than currently.

    There are some innate disadvantages to outsourcing (workers are less loyal, etc.), and of having IT workers on the other side of the world to their clients. But the main reason that outsourcing resulted in crappy work in the past was probably because the clients involved either didn't know good work from crappy work, or were only prepared to pay for crappy work. While this was the case, it made business sense for outsourcers to provide crappy work at low cost. As management of outsourcing projects gets better and demands quality, the work provided will get much better.

    You shouldn't imagine that good coding is some big secret that the US and Western Europe will keep to itself and leverage against the superior numbers of Third World workers. Various Eastern European countries have gained a reputation for having the best coders in the world. 25 years ago no-one in those countries had a computer at home or in their high school. They got to the top just based on a solid mathematical and scientific tradition, decent education, and a lot of hungry young people (metaphorically and in some cases literally hungry). India, China and Brazil can and will do the same.

    If you are not world-famous in your field (think the inventor of a language) and you think that your unique skills will keep you in a high-paying job for life (or that your industry is precious to your government and will be protected from foreign competition) you are deluding yourself. This is what you want to happen and not necessarily what will happen.

    1. Re:Don't be so complacent by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The issue isn't the quality of IT worker in India, but the age-old problem of hiring mercenaries. Some merc outfits are going to offer top notch fighters with lots of in-the-trenches experience and a good track record. They will not be a bargain. Other merc outfits slap any old loser into a uniform as cannon fodder, and pocket the difference. Both outfits will bail on you the instant it looks like things are going to go against you, and find some other sucker to pay the bills.

      More, as India's domestic industries mature, and they are at speed, their best and brightest will be moving to local projects, where their co-workers speak the same language and work the same hours. There was a narrow window of time where outsourcing your IT operations wholesale to India seemed like a good idea. In addition to not being a good idea after all, the window has now closed - they have their own businesses to support and economy to grow. If you want to outsource just to save money, you're really only going to get the dregs, now.