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Boy Scouts Bully Hacker Scouts Into Submission
b1tbkt writes "Youth-focused Maker organization 'Hacker Scouts' has announced their decision to surrender their name due to bullying by the Boy Scouts of America. It appears that BSA has interpreted their federal charter to include a claim on any and all use of the term 'Scout' in an organization's name. The litmus test for such a claim, so far as I'm aware, is the likelihood of causing confusion. The term 'Scout' is sufficiently generic, though, and by this reasoning most every airline in the world would need to eliminate 'Airlines' from their name."
Letter from Camp
Dear Mom,
Our scout master told us all write to our parents in case you saw the flood on TV and worried. We are OK. Only 1 of our tents and 2 sleeping bags got washed away. Luckily, none of us got drowned because we were all up on the mountain looking for Chad when it happened. Oh yes, please call Chad's mother and tell her he is OK. He can't write because of the cast.
I got to ride in one of the search & rescue jeeps. It was neat. We never would have found him in the dark if it hadn't been for the lightning.
Scoutmaster Webb got mad at Chad for going on a hike alone without telling anyone. Chad said he did tell him, but it was during the fire so he probably didn't hear him. Did you know that if you put gas on a fire, the gas can will blow up? The wet wood still didn't burn, but one of our tents did. Also some of our clothes. John is going to look weird until his hair grows back.
We will be home on Saturday if Scoutmaster Webb gets the car fixed. It wasn't his fault about the wreck. The brakes worked OK when we left. Scoutmaster Webb said with a car that old you have to expect something to break down; that's probably why he can't get insurance on it. We think it's a neat car. He doesn't care if we get it dirty, and if it's hot, sometimes he lets us ride on the tailgate. IT gets pretty hot with 10 people in a car. He let us take turns riding in the trailer until the highway patrolman stopped and talked to us.
Scoutmaster Webb is a neat guy. Don't worry, he is a good driver. In fact, he is teaching Terry how to drive. But he only lets him drive on the mountain roads where there isn't any traffic. All we ever see up there are logging trucks.
This morning all of the guys were diving off the rocks and swimming out in the lake. Scoutmaster Webb wouldn't let me because I can't swim and Chad was afraid he would sink because of his cast, so he let us take the canoe
across the lake. It was great. You can still see some of the trees under the water from the flood. Scoutmaster Webb isn't crabby like some scoutmasters. He didn't even get mad about the life jackets. He has to spend a lot of time working on the car so we are trying not to cause him any trouble.
Guess what? We have all passed our first aid merit badges. When Dave dove in the lake and cut his arm, we got to see how a tourniquet works.
Also Wade and I threw up. Scoutmaster Webb said it probably was just food poisoning from the leftover chicken, he said they got sick that way with the food they ate in prison. I'm so glad he got out and became our scoutmaster.
He said he sure figured out how to get things done better while he was doing time.
I have to go now. We are going into town to mail our letters and buy bullets. Don't worry about anything. We are fine.
Love your son,
Cole
P.S. How long has it been since I had a tetanus shot?
They could embrace gender equality and rename themselves the Hacker Guides.
Aha, worked for my pr0n folder too
Could they change their name to Boy Hackers Of America?
No, learn how copyright law works. The BAS is forced to do so by interpretations from the last few decades. Further, it's a deliberate re-use of their brand name; not just "scout" as in the dictionary definition, but in the specific context of non-profit national youth organization.
Wow, bullying, in the boy scouts? I'm utterly shocked. Who would have though an organization full of teenage asshole testosterone pumps would be susceptible to bullying?
Just because the national management is regrettably old-fashioned and very very conservative does not mean the youth themselves are assholes. At that age they more often actually live up to the public Ideals.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
Wow, bullying, in the boy scouts? I'm utterly shocked. Who would have though an organization full of teenage asshole testosterone pumps would be susceptible to bullying?
This was bullying by the boy scouts, an even less shocking phenomenon.
(If anything, the boy scouts, and similar organizations in other countries, have actually chilled out considerably since the bad old days in the fires of psychotic European ultra-nationalism. They still skew right on god and gays; but the 'direct feeder into the armed might of The State' vibe has been toned down considerably)
http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand/Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America%20Trademark%20Listing.aspx
They have to defend their trademark, or they will lose it. IMHO, "Hacker Scouts" is confusing and when I first heard it I thought it was a Scout-related computer group.
I wonder what the Girl Scouts of America would think about giving up their name?
Not that I think much of 'em. I was a Boy Scout when I was kid for a few months before I was thrown out for being a girl. Hiking & similar activities were far more appealing to me than baking cookies...
In this particular case I think there is some merit. The goals of the organizations, how they operate, and the "user base" are similar. "Scouts" is nowhere near as generic as "airlines". Obviously the Hacker Scouts is specifically named after the Boy/Girl Scouts.
It's more like me marketing a cereal called "Apple Loops" or something. Generic words but I wouldn't last 2 seconds in court against Kellogg's because I'm targeting the same audience just like Hacker Scouts is targeting the same people as the other "Scouts".
Like any company, they have to try to (at least make an appearance of) defending any and all trademarks or service marks, else they lose all protection from the law...
The scouts themselves most likely couldn't care less about what another group calls itself, and many would most likely love to be part of the hacker scouts... It's the corporation that is the National BSA Office that is leading this, as would any other company / corporation...
my 2c worth as a long-time BSA leader...
Let me just say they as a whole live up to their 'grown up' acronym sharing fellows as far as their attitudes go.
I'm sure there are good and nice groups among the BSA, but it's because of the individuals not the organization.
They've got cliques based on religion, school, probably what part of town you live in. (I got firsthand experience in the former two thanks to changing schools. It really opened my eyes as far as prejudices go. Especially among groups supposedly espousing otherwise. Also: WTF girls can't join, gays can't join, but female 'Pack Leaders' are ok? I'd always found that a bit iffy.)
Yes, this was done by a bunch of 13 year olds from troop 26 in Spokane, WA - not the adults that run the national organization. There's no way THOSE guys could be a bag of dicks.
What bullying tactics were employed beyond "change your name or we'll sue"?
Because if that's it... I'm not sure why they caved. "Scout" is a pretty generic word.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Oh come on. If you say 'Scouts', especially in reference to a youth group, in the US, people associate that with Boy Scouts. Hacker Scouts were intentionally borrowing on that association and got busted. Besides, for hackers? They can't keep a web server up.
One would think that the BSA could use this to their advantage. Among their demographic, hackers have better public opinion than boy scouts.
Kid: Yeah, I'm here for the scouts. I brought my laptop.
Scoutmaster: Welcome, here's your manual of how to tie knots, a pamphlet on why you should always vote republican, and your assigned times to go to church! Watch out for the troop leader of group 40. Lets just say you'll need your pocket knife for more than carving bears.
Kid: Wait... what?
The "hacker scouts" are just trying a social engineering tactic for more attention. I mean, come on, "hacking" and "scouts" go together? I'm thinking something more like: Junior Hackers League, or Cult of the Sick Cow, or DefCon 4 (not completely at peace). The planned activities just aren't a natural fit:
05:00 - 06:00 PM - Campfire dinner - make and eat foil dinners
06:00 - 07:00 PM - Clean up camp and gather wood for bonfire
07:00 - 09:00 PM - Bonfire - roast marshmallows, hot dogs, make s'mores, and drink hot chocolate.
09:00 - 10:00 PM - Tell ghost stories and tales of great 'sploits
10:00 - 03:00 AM - Pwn some Chinese kids playing Warcraft
Mmmm, I just don't see them as "scouts."
Techies don't understand legal reasoning or the law.
No one with a brain does.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
"I don't think that word means what you think it means".
Since when is protecting your trademarked name bullying? It's simply business. The law forces organizations to do this or they lose their right to their own name. Like the Boy Scouts or not, the problem here is the law.
Well, I was hoping for my organization "Gay Scouts" to come into existence without legal challenge.
I was a cub scout, and a boy scout.
I was also a Cavalry Scout in the United States Army. MOS is 19D.
"Scouts" as a term predates Baden-Powell (the founder of the scouting movement). He took the term from the definition of reconnoitering - "scouting".
I don't know about the legal ramifications, but I know that they aren't the only organization to use the term "Scouts"
Blah Blah Blah.
The local leaders I'm familiar with (at the troop level) are a bunch of arrogant turds that think theirs don't smell.
I can remember a day when Boy Scouts of America would have been approving of something like hackerscouts.org because they would have shared a central theme; curiosity, experimentation, education, science -- all good things to interest young people. It's disappointing to see the BSA stooping to such douchenozzly levels. The have apparently lost enough positive virutue I would not want to be associated with them today.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Look, the reason they called themselves "Hacker Scouts" was specifically to be associated (in people's minds, not officially) with the BSA. I find it reasonable that the BSA (which has been using the term "Scouts" and "Scouting" for a long time) would want to control their brand.
Can't wait to see their new campaign, "There's a Badge for That."
Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
If who get the Whois information for their website, the contact is leftyarble@gmail.com.
Does "left yarble" not mean left testicle? My English not so good.
>teenage asshole testosterone pumps
It sounds like you need a LOT of therapy for whatever dysfunction causes you to lash out at these kids.
...is what organization has more lawyers. That's what US law is about.
I guess you have to take that on trust.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This does exist in the Seattle area.
http://queerscoutsofamerica.blogspot.com/
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Wow, that's quite the bullying there.
Once the BSA found out about the name, they sent some of their older members over to intimidate, physically threaten, and wedgie the heck out of the HS kids until they agreed to the name change.
Wait...no, they didn't.
Ahh, they verbally abused the HS group, calling them a bunch of whiny geeks with no right to the name.
No, they didn't do that either.
Oh....they sent a letter, asking that the HS change their name as they felt it may be confusing with their organization. If they failed to comply, they were willing to allow the courts (you know, that group your tax dollars go to partially in order to settle this kind of dispute?) decide on the matter.
Yep, that's quite the "bullying" there.
I've gotta start keeping score on Slashdot. 1 point for every misleading, sensationalist, or simply factually incorrect headline I see. At 10 points a month my reward is to quit reading this stupid site.
They are an organization of pederasts, after all.
Just a couple of points. First, use-it-or-lose-it isn't really an accurate description. If {blank} Scouts became common usage, those alternative constructions could be declared generic, not Boy Scouts of a America, or even Boy Scouts. BSA would still clearly have monopoly rights to those. The whole argument here is that many (especially Hacker Scouts) already view {blank} Scouts as generic, and not infringing on BSA's existing marks. More importantly, it's worth noting that that marking rights given to BSA are not governed (exclusively) by US trademark law. They are granted specifically under 36 USC 309 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/subtitle-II/part-B/chapter-309). Whether the federal government should be enshrining individual organizations' markings is another matter altogether.
BSA has Trademarks that are 'infringed' by this organization's name - which you are required to actively defend against anything that could be infringing - otherwise you lose your Trademark. (This is not true with Copyrights, just Trademarks)
As a fellow Eagle Scout, I agree it isn't wonderful or ideal behavior - but if they want to keep their name (and with all the splinter-orgs as a result of their recent decision regarding Youth membership, there are plenty) and uniqueness in 'Brand Identity' they have to do this.
While it's fun to ridicule the boy scouts, from the Hacker Scouts own web site:
Hacker Scouts is an inclusive, diverse, co-ed organization designed to support the next generation of makers, explorers, entrepreneurs, and leaders through an innovative program that blends creativity and technical skill through the study of science, technology, engineering, art, and math (STEAM). Every part of our organization is guided by the fundamental belief that children learn best when they are self-motivated and enthusiastic about a subject, when they have skilled mentors, and when the environment supports their social, emotional, and cognitive developmental needs. In Hacker Scouts, kids have the opportunity to explore new concepts and skills, focus on their individual goals, and create community. This makes us unlike any other program. In a quickly changing world, Hacker Scouts provides a relevant, consistent, well-rounded foundation of knowledge combined with an emphasis on values like resourcefulness, ingenuity, creativity, and persistance that will support our kid's ability to adapt to new technology, now and in the future.
and
While most of our activities are targeted at the 8-14 year old range, all ages are welcome at Hacker Scouts Open Lab. Because Open Lab is not a drop off program, parents and mentors are available to help modify projects for younger makers.
It would appear that they target the same age groups as the boy scouts (including cub scouts) and even hold scout sunday events like the boy scouts. It's not too far of a reach to see why the boy scouts might say there could be confusion between the two. After all, in terms of official scouting, there are Cub Scouts (including TIger Scout, Wolf Scout, Bear Scout Webelos Scout), Boy Scouts, Explorer Scouts, Adventure Scouts and probably others. Who is to say somebody wouldn't think that Hacker Scout wasn't part of that group?
Just saying, that in this case, the boy scout organization, might have a valid point.
Techies understand it in a way a little different from lawyers. They tend to see it as they would a computer program: Clear, unambiguous, and occasionally exploitable if you can find something the law allows even if the writers obviously didn't intend to.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
One of my favorite legal 'exploits' is OFFSystem - a p2p file sharing network which functions only by transmitting random data. As no copyrighted information is ever stored or transmitted, the creators think it should be legally safe. Somehow I cannot imagine a judge agreeing, but it's too obscure to have been sued yet.
Nasty overhead, though. It works by creating blocks of random data, then creating a new block by XORing that with the copyrighted file. Both blocks are thus random, of maximum entropy in themselves. The copyrighted data doesn't reappear until the two blocks are XORed together again, something that can only be done by the recipient who knows which blocks pair together.
The purpose of branding is to offer consumers information about the product - in this case if an organisation is branded 'Scouts', then it carries an assurance that it conforms to their rules, procedures etc. If the name is released from having that meaning, information for parents is lost. Therefore it is reasonable for the scouts national organisation to require the hacker scouts to use an alternative title.
...then you effectively are proving everyone knows what the term Scout is used for in reference to youth organizations. They could as easily been the Hacker Pioneers, the Hacker Navigators or the Hacker Pathfinders.
I know this will be unpopular, but this is probably one of the less bad infringement cases I have heard of.
No, I'm pretty sure it was a scout camp. At least some kind of scouts, and now that all falls under the BSA.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Yeah. While there are a lot of jerks in scouting (just like any group), the national management often bares almost no resemblance to the local or even regional troops.
Dear Publisher:
Please be advised that your novel, "To Kill a Mockingbird", violates the Boy Scouts of America's legal rights. We not going to say which ones, but if you don't change the name of the novel's protagonist, it'll mean a long and drawn out expensive legal battle. And you don't want to mess with us, because AMERICA, obviously.
Warm regards,
A Homophobic, Dated, Desperate Organization
testosterone pumps? You're either kidding or not paying attention. Do you think anyone with testosterone pumping through their body would wear those silly uniforms and neckerchiefs? Scouting has finally openly embraced it's gay roots. But it seems that the gay scouts are not above bullying others. No wonder you were modded down as flamebait, suggesting that scouts had any testosterone!
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Guess who wins this fight?
Tonto's horse.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Hackers should not call themselves scouts for fear to be seen as a paramilitary org... ...
(disclaimer, I was a "ranger scout" for some time to the great distress of my parents, but really it's antiquated, and sex segregated
Young Makers or something like this is much better, or maybe "Wizards" :-)
No one with a brain does.
That is just another lame excuse for the laziness and ignorance that is exposed in most of the geek's posts about the law.
They should change it to "Hacker Chariot Archers". Scouts are weak-ass units that die in almost any fight. Chariot archers will fuck their shit up.
I think the word "scout" is synonymous with the BSA, and they should own that word. They, however, do not own the words "the", "boy", and "America", and should be forced to stop using those words in their name.
You were never a Boy Scout, I'll take it?
While I'll gladly concede the kids themselves weren't behind his feat of assholiness, having been a Boy Scout, I can tell you straight-up that there's quite a few psychotic assholes there who can't wait to get their hands around the necks of woodland creatures, love carving crude weapons out of common forest material with a disturbing desire to "prove" they work, and will smuggle any manner of pornographic material they can onto any campout they think they can get away with it. I remember my troop, where the kids from the families generally in charge of most events always had an inordinate interest in staying up late to catch raccoons in their homemade traps (traps made with tons of attention to detail, too!), hazed the hell out of the new kids, and their personal favorite, catching frogs in swamps so they could drop-kick them.
I knew these kids, buddy. I walked among them. "Teenage asshole testosterone pumps" is being nice to them. The major upshot of the Scouts is that they were out in the woods being horrible people and not doing so in their neighborhoods.
Techies understand it in a way a little different from lawyers. They tend to see it as they would a computer program: Clear, unambiguous, and occasionally exploitable if you can find something the law allows even if the writers obviously didn't intend to.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
One of my favorite legal 'exploits' is OFFSystem - a p2p file sharing network which functions only by transmitting random data. As no copyrighted information is ever stored or transmitted, the creators think it should be legally safe. Somehow I cannot imagine a judge agreeing, but it's too obscure to have been sued yet.
Nasty overhead, though. It works by creating blocks of random data, then creating a new block by XORing that with the copyrighted file. Both blocks are thus random, of maximum entropy in themselves. The copyrighted data doesn't reappear until the two blocks are XORed together again, something that can only be done by the recipient who knows which blocks pair together.
That... is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.
You can't extract the copyrighted file from the random noise unless you already have a copy of it, so there is literally no point in this existing (if you already have a copy than receiving the stream and decoding the noise with your existing copy has no baring on the legality of that copy).
If you turn it around and send the recipient the random noise and the random noise XOR-ed with a copyrighted work, that's called "one time pad encryption" and will not hold up as a defense for infringement (the recipient still made an unlicensed copy when they decoded it).
They SELL MERIT BADGES, for fucks sake.
Of course they're bullshit ones that don't involve any real curriculum, and there's no actual structure for issuance or finding out if someone actually learned and earned anything, other than buying kitch from the maker shed. This whole supposed group is a fucking marketing tool, and everyone said as much when they announced it.
I'm glad the BSA kicked them in the teeth. They were asking for it.
And no they wouldn't. It's a marketing campaign. To see one done right, go look at Adafruits educational endevours. This one is a bullshit knock-off, where they try to capitalize on the BSA program, but as a cheap marketing tool.
Anyone else have trouble parsing this headline, thanks to multiple words that are both nouns and verbs? I first read it as "Boy Scouts (v.) [Bully Hacker] Scouts (v.)..." and it took another couple of goes before it made sense.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Ah yes, the good old "Litigation" Merit Badge.
That was a popular one.
I did some IT work them at their Irving, TX headquarters a few years back. BSA is hyper sensitive to lawsuits. There have been numerous lawsuits against Scout "leaders" molesting children over the years. Their attorneys require them to keep files on everyone that has every worked there, in case they get sued. They have rooms full of files...boxes and boxes of files. So it's little wonder they are objecting to a hacker outfit using the Scouts name.
I was a boy scout when I was a kid. Loved it. I think it's a good organization but they need to modernize. But they are beholden to conservative groups that donate a lot of money. Ross Perot gives them millions. In fact, he donated the land that their headquarters sits on. So BSA continues to toe the conservative line...not saying that's wrong, just an observation.
Those uniforms need to go. I think a lot of kids would feel wimpy wearing them. When I see an adult wearing one it just looks a bit creepy. Then I immediately think of Higgins from Magnum PI and chuckle a bit :-)
Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I know I'm replying to a troll, but the BSA has done tons to curb abuse and bullying. Youth Protection Training is the only instructional course leaders are required to complete prior to contact with any boys. It's freely available for anyone to take at myscouting.org, and must be renewed every 24 months. There have been coverups in the past, but the modern scouts have gone above and beyond to "think of the children."
A guy with a very high 7 digit SlashID finally says something well thought out that clearly reflects a high level of intelligence - possibly for the first time in the history of Slashdot - and you discourage him? He is dead on. If you are a lawyer then you are, by definition, an idiot.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Heaven forbid that a private organization, built with religion as a core value, should encourage its members to attend a church of their choice.
And politics was never part of my Scouting experience.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
They've been using Scouts for centuries. In fact, the BSA was formed as a quasi-military organization to provide trained youths for the British Empire, originally.
But, what would I know, I was only a Venturer Scout (Canadian version of Eagle Scout).
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Look. They may have the right to call them on the use of scout. But, it doesn't make it any less jerkfaced to pull this crap. I mean, seriously. The BSA aren't exactly the pinnacle of light here. Not saying that the Hacker Scouts should have used Scouts in their name. But they're a small, non-profit group that is basically getting jerked around by a much larger, amoral organization.
If you read through the HS site you will see that they did not just borrow the name. The organizational structure, rewards, ranks, and patch system are all borrowed heavily from BSA. So while it is convenient to label BS the bully here, HS does not pass the smell test of non-infringement. Not by a long shot. As a long time scouter, and maker, I fully appreciate what HS is trying to do. But creating a scene and yelling "but, we did it for the children" does not make it any more legit. You would need to be as ignorant as the poster to not see through the ruse. The act of "crying wolf" to twist the social media scene to falsely swing sentiment in your direction is getting old. I was happy to see the majority of posters see through the smoke screen and call it what it is.
I want to start the Lawyer Scouts of America.
Lets see them sue that.
Since when is protecting your trademarked name bullying?
When Apple Does it.
I was in Beavers for 3 years. I was in Cubs for 3 years, and I was a leader of Beavers in addition to being a Cub, and I was a Scout for 2 years and a leader of Cubs during that time.
I'm the eldest son from a navy family, and my father was gone more often than not. It's hard to learn to be a man when you don't have a role model, and the scouting movement gave me one. Not because I fell into it by accident, but because he took steps to mitigate the loss his absence brought. I'm very glad that he did. My experience has a great similarity to that of young men I see from broken homes being raised by single mothers, and when I look on them, I can see the negative consequences that he protected me from, and I'm grateful.
Boys and young men need masculine culture. It's important. The Scouting movement do the best they can to meet the need in a positive way, and they do a pretty good job. If you're not offering something better, you have no right to piss on them.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Since "The Boy Scouts of America" was founded independently and after what is now "The International Scouting Movement" also known as "The Scouts", does not the mark and name rightfully belong to them?
Perhaps only outside of America?
So why not then affiliate "Hacker Scouts" with the international organisation and rename it "Hacker Scouts International - (Just not America)".
Toy Scouts
Joy Scouts
Koi Scouts
http://nwbagpipes.com/
I did. It was rejected by the trademark office as being to similar in name and possibly function to another organization with the name of "hackers"
So the boy scout issue may be a non issue.
Not heaven forbid. I'm just pointing out that a lot of kids aren't really interested in church compared to "hacking."
Politics isn't explicitly part of it, but the culture is, from my experience, conservative.
Anyway, this was a joke, not a serious critique of the boyscouts.
For pointing me to an organization my kids would rather be in.
Wow, that idea is about as old as dirt, and has been thrashed out long ago....
A great post from 2004 talks about this and other ideas of Copyright in a digital age.
What Colour are your bits?
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Another lame excuse? No. There is a lot of illogical technicalities and corruption in law, and politicians and judges constantly try to get around the constitution by engaging in newspeak. They did this with the TSA and free speech zones, and they're trying to do this with the NSA. If you think there's a lot of logical thought put into this garbage, I can only hang my head in shame.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
In the real world, judges try to exploit technicalities to allow the government to get around the constitution, or sometimes just pretend it doesn't exist. Like, for instance, the TSA, the NSA (that crappy secret court), and that 'fire in a crowded theater' case people love citing so much.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
Rather unfair. Many of them are crooks.
And don't say they aren't mutually exclusive. It's true, but irrelevant - crooks who are idiots tend to get caught rather quickly.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Whether or not you agree with it and whether or not it has any logic are totally orthogonal. And whether it's ethical/moral or not is orthogonal to both.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Whether or not you agree with it and whether or not it has any logic are totally orthogonal.
Well, I agree. But to say it's logical would just be foolhardy. I don't believe it's necessary for someone to delude him/herself into believing such things are logical.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
It's more the legislators that do the exploiting, trying to get around the judges.
I agree that it happens more often with legislators, but some judges do tend to try to find 'creative' ways around the constitution.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
The two aren't mutually exclusive; that's true. The two are mutually inclusive though. A crook is, by definition, an idiot.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
and when I first heard it I thought it was a Scout-related computer group.
Not very bright, are you ?
I remember a BSA that wasn't completely retarded. They could have made this group an offer - and stayed relevant - instead of alienating them. Sad to see that old ship slipping under the waters.
Daimler Chrysler did the same thing to all geep related websites.
The Youth Protection Training is just lip service. I pointed out instances of bullying when my son was in scouts. The leaders saw it, and agreed that it was bullying. The Youth Protection Training says the scout in question gets three warnings, and must be expelled thereafter. This never happened. The scout leaders just threw up their hands when "discussing" the issue with parents didn't help. I pulled my son out when it became obvious that this was just the way it was going to be.