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Boy Scouts Bully Hacker Scouts Into Submission
b1tbkt writes "Youth-focused Maker organization 'Hacker Scouts' has announced their decision to surrender their name due to bullying by the Boy Scouts of America. It appears that BSA has interpreted their federal charter to include a claim on any and all use of the term 'Scout' in an organization's name. The litmus test for such a claim, so far as I'm aware, is the likelihood of causing confusion. The term 'Scout' is sufficiently generic, though, and by this reasoning most every airline in the world would need to eliminate 'Airlines' from their name."
Letter from Camp
Dear Mom,
Our scout master told us all write to our parents in case you saw the flood on TV and worried. We are OK. Only 1 of our tents and 2 sleeping bags got washed away. Luckily, none of us got drowned because we were all up on the mountain looking for Chad when it happened. Oh yes, please call Chad's mother and tell her he is OK. He can't write because of the cast.
I got to ride in one of the search & rescue jeeps. It was neat. We never would have found him in the dark if it hadn't been for the lightning.
Scoutmaster Webb got mad at Chad for going on a hike alone without telling anyone. Chad said he did tell him, but it was during the fire so he probably didn't hear him. Did you know that if you put gas on a fire, the gas can will blow up? The wet wood still didn't burn, but one of our tents did. Also some of our clothes. John is going to look weird until his hair grows back.
We will be home on Saturday if Scoutmaster Webb gets the car fixed. It wasn't his fault about the wreck. The brakes worked OK when we left. Scoutmaster Webb said with a car that old you have to expect something to break down; that's probably why he can't get insurance on it. We think it's a neat car. He doesn't care if we get it dirty, and if it's hot, sometimes he lets us ride on the tailgate. IT gets pretty hot with 10 people in a car. He let us take turns riding in the trailer until the highway patrolman stopped and talked to us.
Scoutmaster Webb is a neat guy. Don't worry, he is a good driver. In fact, he is teaching Terry how to drive. But he only lets him drive on the mountain roads where there isn't any traffic. All we ever see up there are logging trucks.
This morning all of the guys were diving off the rocks and swimming out in the lake. Scoutmaster Webb wouldn't let me because I can't swim and Chad was afraid he would sink because of his cast, so he let us take the canoe
across the lake. It was great. You can still see some of the trees under the water from the flood. Scoutmaster Webb isn't crabby like some scoutmasters. He didn't even get mad about the life jackets. He has to spend a lot of time working on the car so we are trying not to cause him any trouble.
Guess what? We have all passed our first aid merit badges. When Dave dove in the lake and cut his arm, we got to see how a tourniquet works.
Also Wade and I threw up. Scoutmaster Webb said it probably was just food poisoning from the leftover chicken, he said they got sick that way with the food they ate in prison. I'm so glad he got out and became our scoutmaster.
He said he sure figured out how to get things done better while he was doing time.
I have to go now. We are going into town to mail our letters and buy bullets. Don't worry about anything. We are fine.
Love your son,
Cole
P.S. How long has it been since I had a tetanus shot?
Aha, worked for my pr0n folder too
Could they change their name to Boy Hackers Of America?
No, learn how copyright law works. The BAS is forced to do so by interpretations from the last few decades. Further, it's a deliberate re-use of their brand name; not just "scout" as in the dictionary definition, but in the specific context of non-profit national youth organization.
Wow, bullying, in the boy scouts? I'm utterly shocked. Who would have though an organization full of teenage asshole testosterone pumps would be susceptible to bullying?
Just because the national management is regrettably old-fashioned and very very conservative does not mean the youth themselves are assholes. At that age they more often actually live up to the public Ideals.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
Wow, bullying, in the boy scouts? I'm utterly shocked. Who would have though an organization full of teenage asshole testosterone pumps would be susceptible to bullying?
This was bullying by the boy scouts, an even less shocking phenomenon.
(If anything, the boy scouts, and similar organizations in other countries, have actually chilled out considerably since the bad old days in the fires of psychotic European ultra-nationalism. They still skew right on god and gays; but the 'direct feeder into the armed might of The State' vibe has been toned down considerably)
http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand/Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America%20Trademark%20Listing.aspx
They have to defend their trademark, or they will lose it. IMHO, "Hacker Scouts" is confusing and when I first heard it I thought it was a Scout-related computer group.
In this particular case I think there is some merit. The goals of the organizations, how they operate, and the "user base" are similar. "Scouts" is nowhere near as generic as "airlines". Obviously the Hacker Scouts is specifically named after the Boy/Girl Scouts.
It's more like me marketing a cereal called "Apple Loops" or something. Generic words but I wouldn't last 2 seconds in court against Kellogg's because I'm targeting the same audience just like Hacker Scouts is targeting the same people as the other "Scouts".
Yes, because no one would use "Scouts" for girls, would they?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Yes, this was done by a bunch of 13 year olds from troop 26 in Spokane, WA - not the adults that run the national organization. There's no way THOSE guys could be a bag of dicks.
What bullying tactics were employed beyond "change your name or we'll sue"?
Because if that's it... I'm not sure why they caved. "Scout" is a pretty generic word.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
One would think that the BSA could use this to their advantage. Among their demographic, hackers have better public opinion than boy scouts.
Kid: Yeah, I'm here for the scouts. I brought my laptop.
Scoutmaster: Welcome, here's your manual of how to tie knots, a pamphlet on why you should always vote republican, and your assigned times to go to church! Watch out for the troop leader of group 40. Lets just say you'll need your pocket knife for more than carving bears.
Kid: Wait... what?
The "hacker scouts" are just trying a social engineering tactic for more attention. I mean, come on, "hacking" and "scouts" go together? I'm thinking something more like: Junior Hackers League, or Cult of the Sick Cow, or DefCon 4 (not completely at peace). The planned activities just aren't a natural fit:
05:00 - 06:00 PM - Campfire dinner - make and eat foil dinners
06:00 - 07:00 PM - Clean up camp and gather wood for bonfire
07:00 - 09:00 PM - Bonfire - roast marshmallows, hot dogs, make s'mores, and drink hot chocolate.
09:00 - 10:00 PM - Tell ghost stories and tales of great 'sploits
10:00 - 03:00 AM - Pwn some Chinese kids playing Warcraft
Mmmm, I just don't see them as "scouts."
Techies don't understand legal reasoning or the law.
No one with a brain does.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
In the 1970's, there was a hockey team called the Scouts... They are defunct now, but afaik it wasn't because of their name.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
"I don't think that word means what you think it means".
Since when is protecting your trademarked name bullying? It's simply business. The law forces organizations to do this or they lose their right to their own name. Like the Boy Scouts or not, the problem here is the law.
There are many different troops, etc. sponsored by many different organizations. The ideals are very good, there are always people who are exceptions to the rule. At the Cub Scout level it is more family oriented, boys and their siblings (male or female) go camping, etc. and women leaders are OK. At the Boy Scout level it is strictly for boys. At the Venture & Explorer Scout level it opens up to boys and girls.
The Girl Scouts of America were founded as a sister organization to Boy Scouts of America. That is, at one time they were two separate arms of the same organization (at least in a de facto sense if not a de jure one).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I was a cub scout, and a boy scout.
I was also a Cavalry Scout in the United States Army. MOS is 19D.
"Scouts" as a term predates Baden-Powell (the founder of the scouting movement). He took the term from the definition of reconnoitering - "scouting".
I don't know about the legal ramifications, but I know that they aren't the only organization to use the term "Scouts"
Blah Blah Blah.
I can remember a day when Boy Scouts of America would have been approving of something like hackerscouts.org because they would have shared a central theme; curiosity, experimentation, education, science -- all good things to interest young people. It's disappointing to see the BSA stooping to such douchenozzly levels. The have apparently lost enough positive virutue I would not want to be associated with them today.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Can't wait to see their new campaign, "There's a Badge for That."
Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
The hacking group claims they are creative. They should prove it --- the next creative work should be a creative new name.
Any businessperson knows you must have your own creative and unique names and marks. You cannot ride the coattails of another organization's name without the risk of a lawsuit. A quick search of TESS shows the word "Scout" by itself has multiple trademarks on it. Since this is the name of a youth group and the BSA and GSA have trademarks on "Scout" in youth groups, there is a clear trademark case to be made, and fought about in the courts.
But it gets more complicated than that.
Both the Boy Scouts of America and Girl Scouts of America have a charter from the United States congress. Their charters give them additional power beyond traditional copyright law. Specifically, they include "exclusive right to use emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases" for their organizations which extends beyond traditional
So first off, all organizations MUST sue when they discover other people using their marks. It is not an option. Trademark holders are required either to defend the mark in the courts or risk losing the mark. So the BSA really doesn't have much of a choice in the matter. The marks they use are also boosted by the congressional charter, so any fight brought by the "Hacker Scouts" will face both the traditional trademark battle (which is difficult) and a congressional charter (which is also difficult).
The group did something any business lawyer would have warned them about --- avoid using any names that are already trademarked. They chose to pick a word that is already trademarked, and are now facing the inevitable consequences of it.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
>teenage asshole testosterone pumps
It sounds like you need a LOT of therapy for whatever dysfunction causes you to lash out at these kids.
...is what organization has more lawyers. That's what US law is about.
Rate on a scale of "they look identical if you're so drunk you're legally a munition, from Kansas, and had no sleep for 72 hours" to "Einstein, Hawking and Feynman couldn't tell them apart) the likelihood of confusing a youth movement with a professional sports team.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I guess you have to take that on trust.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This does exist in the Seattle area.
http://queerscoutsofamerica.blogspot.com/
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Not very...
But then I wouldn't be likely to confuse a youth group that focuses exclusively on specialized technical skills that are not really relevant without modern the conveniences of that electronics provides with a youth group that focuses on outdoor and other life skills either.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Wow, that's quite the bullying there.
Once the BSA found out about the name, they sent some of their older members over to intimidate, physically threaten, and wedgie the heck out of the HS kids until they agreed to the name change.
Wait...no, they didn't.
Ahh, they verbally abused the HS group, calling them a bunch of whiny geeks with no right to the name.
No, they didn't do that either.
Oh....they sent a letter, asking that the HS change their name as they felt it may be confusing with their organization. If they failed to comply, they were willing to allow the courts (you know, that group your tax dollars go to partially in order to settle this kind of dispute?) decide on the matter.
Yep, that's quite the "bullying" there.
I've gotta start keeping score on Slashdot. 1 point for every misleading, sensationalist, or simply factually incorrect headline I see. At 10 points a month my reward is to quit reading this stupid site.
It's Nadsat and yes, yarbs are bollocks.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
That's why the Sailor Senshi were renamed the Sailor Scouts in the english adaptation instead of using a more accurate translation.
No, it isn't. Rather, the idiocy of American marketers and translators is entirely to blame.
Or are you telling me we got "Neon Genesis" Evangelion by some method other than someone sniffing a hell of a lot of glue?
I had to look that word up. I thought it had something to do with bicycles.
Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
BSA has Trademarks that are 'infringed' by this organization's name - which you are required to actively defend against anything that could be infringing - otherwise you lose your Trademark. (This is not true with Copyrights, just Trademarks)
As a fellow Eagle Scout, I agree it isn't wonderful or ideal behavior - but if they want to keep their name (and with all the splinter-orgs as a result of their recent decision regarding Youth membership, there are plenty) and uniqueness in 'Brand Identity' they have to do this.
While it's fun to ridicule the boy scouts, from the Hacker Scouts own web site:
Hacker Scouts is an inclusive, diverse, co-ed organization designed to support the next generation of makers, explorers, entrepreneurs, and leaders through an innovative program that blends creativity and technical skill through the study of science, technology, engineering, art, and math (STEAM). Every part of our organization is guided by the fundamental belief that children learn best when they are self-motivated and enthusiastic about a subject, when they have skilled mentors, and when the environment supports their social, emotional, and cognitive developmental needs. In Hacker Scouts, kids have the opportunity to explore new concepts and skills, focus on their individual goals, and create community. This makes us unlike any other program. In a quickly changing world, Hacker Scouts provides a relevant, consistent, well-rounded foundation of knowledge combined with an emphasis on values like resourcefulness, ingenuity, creativity, and persistance that will support our kid's ability to adapt to new technology, now and in the future.
and
While most of our activities are targeted at the 8-14 year old range, all ages are welcome at Hacker Scouts Open Lab. Because Open Lab is not a drop off program, parents and mentors are available to help modify projects for younger makers.
It would appear that they target the same age groups as the boy scouts (including cub scouts) and even hold scout sunday events like the boy scouts. It's not too far of a reach to see why the boy scouts might say there could be confusion between the two. After all, in terms of official scouting, there are Cub Scouts (including TIger Scout, Wolf Scout, Bear Scout Webelos Scout), Boy Scouts, Explorer Scouts, Adventure Scouts and probably others. Who is to say somebody wouldn't think that Hacker Scout wasn't part of that group?
Just saying, that in this case, the boy scout organization, might have a valid point.
I think you're completely disregarding that the BSA is a Mormon organization.
Umm, NO! I'm both an Eagle Scout & a Mormon. And yes, I did Scouting as part of my church youth activities. But at no point is one organization beholden to the other. We Mormons do hold a huge sway over the BSA. But we aren't the only ones, nor do we want to be. We have our own things to worry about, and our own ways of spreading our beliefs. Heck, knocking doors in a white shirt & tie is a heck of a lot easier way to spread a spiritual message than trying to do it through rowdy teenage boys.
The BSA is the official boy's youth program for the Mormon church (as selected by the Mormons, not the BSA). Salt Lake City has a disproportionate and unhealthy influence on BSA national policy as a result.
Basically, when the Boy Scouts were on the verge of disappearing into history a few decades back, the Mormons stepped in and said "we'll give you a big shot in the arm but we get the reins". And the BSA said "sure, anything, where do I sign? Right here under where it says 'consent for transference of soul?'"
Techies understand it in a way a little different from lawyers. They tend to see it as they would a computer program: Clear, unambiguous, and occasionally exploitable if you can find something the law allows even if the writers obviously didn't intend to.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
One of my favorite legal 'exploits' is OFFSystem - a p2p file sharing network which functions only by transmitting random data. As no copyrighted information is ever stored or transmitted, the creators think it should be legally safe. Somehow I cannot imagine a judge agreeing, but it's too obscure to have been sued yet.
Nasty overhead, though. It works by creating blocks of random data, then creating a new block by XORing that with the copyrighted file. Both blocks are thus random, of maximum entropy in themselves. The copyrighted data doesn't reappear until the two blocks are XORed together again, something that can only be done by the recipient who knows which blocks pair together.
The purpose of branding is to offer consumers information about the product - in this case if an organisation is branded 'Scouts', then it carries an assurance that it conforms to their rules, procedures etc. If the name is released from having that meaning, information for parents is lost. Therefore it is reasonable for the scouts national organisation to require the hacker scouts to use an alternative title.
Well, I was hoping for my organization "Gay Scouts" to come into existence without legal challenge.
Oh now you're just blatantly recruiting heteros to brainwash into same-sexiness!?
What's wrong, the subliminal messages not working out so well anymore? Eg: Making "Gay" be synonymous with "happy" -- HA! Gotcha. And then you've got the gall to target our kids!?
"We'll Have a Gay 'ol Time...." - The Flintstones, FFS?! Oh come on, its painfully apparent to anyone that Barney and Fred are "partners" in loveless marriages of convenience to Betty and Wilma. And all those dinosaurs being treated as appliances? Those are metaphors for exploiting minorities!
Don't even get me started on "Shakespeare" -- Oh, Like anyone believes that's a real name, and not a euphemism for "sword fighting" wanker... "Shake Spear". ha! Heteros in love? (spoilers) Killed both Romeo and Juliet!
Hogwarts is practically oozing with Harry and Ron's Queerdom.
Oh, I think you've done Quite enough "Gay Scouting".
The BSA is the official boy's youth program for the Mormon church (as selected by the Mormons, not the BSA).
"All apples are red, therefore anything that is red must be an apple." That's how you are defending the claim that the BSA is a Mormon organization. No, not even "all apples", "some apples", since only some Mormons are member of BSA.
"Some racists buy Fords, therefore Ford is a company run by racists." There's the car analogy.
While not a mormon organization, that specific church has, over the last decade or two, managed to wield increasing power over the BSA, which to a degree has turned the BSA into an arm of their organization.. or at minimal they wield significantly more (and more organized) power over the whole group then the other religious organizations that support the BSA.
...then you effectively are proving everyone knows what the term Scout is used for in reference to youth organizations. They could as easily been the Hacker Pioneers, the Hacker Navigators or the Hacker Pathfinders.
I know this will be unpopular, but this is probably one of the less bad infringement cases I have heard of.
No, I'm pretty sure it was a scout camp. At least some kind of scouts, and now that all falls under the BSA.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Yeah. While there are a lot of jerks in scouting (just like any group), the national management often bares almost no resemblance to the local or even regional troops.
Dear Publisher:
Please be advised that your novel, "To Kill a Mockingbird", violates the Boy Scouts of America's legal rights. We not going to say which ones, but if you don't change the name of the novel's protagonist, it'll mean a long and drawn out expensive legal battle. And you don't want to mess with us, because AMERICA, obviously.
Warm regards,
A Homophobic, Dated, Desperate Organization
Tonto's horse.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Hackers should not call themselves scouts for fear to be seen as a paramilitary org... ...
(disclaimer, I was a "ranger scout" for some time to the great distress of my parents, but really it's antiquated, and sex segregated
Young Makers or something like this is much better, or maybe "Wizards" :-)
No one with a brain does.
That is just another lame excuse for the laziness and ignorance that is exposed in most of the geek's posts about the law.
They should change it to "Hacker Chariot Archers". Scouts are weak-ass units that die in almost any fight. Chariot archers will fuck their shit up.
I think the word "scout" is synonymous with the BSA, and they should own that word. They, however, do not own the words "the", "boy", and "America", and should be forced to stop using those words in their name.
Techies understand it in a way a little different from lawyers. They tend to see it as they would a computer program: Clear, unambiguous, and occasionally exploitable if you can find something the law allows even if the writers obviously didn't intend to.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
One of my favorite legal 'exploits' is OFFSystem - a p2p file sharing network which functions only by transmitting random data. As no copyrighted information is ever stored or transmitted, the creators think it should be legally safe. Somehow I cannot imagine a judge agreeing, but it's too obscure to have been sued yet.
Nasty overhead, though. It works by creating blocks of random data, then creating a new block by XORing that with the copyrighted file. Both blocks are thus random, of maximum entropy in themselves. The copyrighted data doesn't reappear until the two blocks are XORed together again, something that can only be done by the recipient who knows which blocks pair together.
That... is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.
You can't extract the copyrighted file from the random noise unless you already have a copy of it, so there is literally no point in this existing (if you already have a copy than receiving the stream and decoding the noise with your existing copy has no baring on the legality of that copy).
If you turn it around and send the recipient the random noise and the random noise XOR-ed with a copyrighted work, that's called "one time pad encryption" and will not hold up as a defense for infringement (the recipient still made an unlicensed copy when they decoded it).
You wouldn't confuse the activities, perhaps, but taking the names on face value it would be easy to assume that the Hacker Scouts are affiliated with the Boy Scouts simply by being in the same field (youth groups), and that's precisely what trademark law is aimed at preventing. Put it this way: if you opened a sushi bar called "McDonalds" you'd get sued by McDonald's, because even though you're serving unmistakably different food, that name is trademarked in the restaurant business. A restaurant is a class of organisation, a youth group is a class of organisation, the little details like what's on the menu or what activities they offer are largely irrelevant as far as trademark law is concerned.
Blank until
Female Scoutmasters are permited, unless there's been a recent rules change. There's just fewer in Boy Scouts because the women are more likely to be involved during Cub when higher counts of parents are involved and camping is the exception rather than the norm for activities.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
Anyone else have trouble parsing this headline, thanks to multiple words that are both nouns and verbs? I first read it as "Boy Scouts (v.) [Bully Hacker] Scouts (v.)..." and it took another couple of goes before it made sense.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I did some IT work them at their Irving, TX headquarters a few years back. BSA is hyper sensitive to lawsuits. There have been numerous lawsuits against Scout "leaders" molesting children over the years. Their attorneys require them to keep files on everyone that has every worked there, in case they get sued. They have rooms full of files...boxes and boxes of files. So it's little wonder they are objecting to a hacker outfit using the Scouts name.
I was a boy scout when I was a kid. Loved it. I think it's a good organization but they need to modernize. But they are beholden to conservative groups that donate a lot of money. Ross Perot gives them millions. In fact, he donated the land that their headquarters sits on. So BSA continues to toe the conservative line...not saying that's wrong, just an observation.
Those uniforms need to go. I think a lot of kids would feel wimpy wearing them. When I see an adult wearing one it just looks a bit creepy. Then I immediately think of Higgins from Magnum PI and chuckle a bit :-)
Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Not necessarily. I usually associate it with NAMBLA.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Maybe having those charters should subject them to being subject to certain civil rights laws as a public organization rather than allowed to be discriminatory like a private group has the perogative to be.
I know I'm replying to a troll, but the BSA has done tons to curb abuse and bullying. Youth Protection Training is the only instructional course leaders are required to complete prior to contact with any boys. It's freely available for anyone to take at myscouting.org, and must be renewed every 24 months. There have been coverups in the past, but the modern scouts have gone above and beyond to "think of the children."
A guy with a very high 7 digit SlashID finally says something well thought out that clearly reflects a high level of intelligence - possibly for the first time in the history of Slashdot - and you discourage him? He is dead on. If you are a lawyer then you are, by definition, an idiot.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Almost all Boy Scout Troops are hosted by churches. The Boy Scouts embrace religion as the foundation for building a good citizen.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
So first off, all organizations MUST sue when they discover other people using their marks. It is not an option. Trademark holders are required either to defend the mark in the courts or risk losing the mark.
100% wrong. If they do not defend it they can luse it, but you don't have to sue to defend it. You could issue a $0 license, and that would be a successful "defense" so far as trademark law is concerned.
But suing is not a requirement, it is a last resort. Or the first resort of scoundrels.
Learn to love Alaska
Heaven forbid that a private organization, built with religion as a core value, should encourage its members to attend a church of their choice.
And politics was never part of my Scouting experience.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Who "runs" it? If those who run it are members of or influenced by an organization, saying it's "run by" them isn't incorrect.
Learn to love Alaska
What role did LDS play in excluding gays?
Learn to love Alaska
Yeah, Pepsi Cola can't ride the coat tails of Coca Cola (which I believe is riding on the coat tails of Royal Crown Cola).
second only to that of JROTC.
As part of my JROTC I got to shoot an M-60. The Boy Scouts had me camping in the parking lot of a church.
Learn to love Alaska
They've been using Scouts for centuries. In fact, the BSA was formed as a quasi-military organization to provide trained youths for the British Empire, originally.
But, what would I know, I was only a Venturer Scout (Canadian version of Eagle Scout).
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Why not just be the "Gay Outs"?
BSA always did that, and expelled any scouts or scoutmasters who were ever outed. At one time I believe they tried to take away merit badges previously earned as well. I'm not sure when they started actively excluding atheists as well, but it was always a Christian church-based organization so any atheists who were involved were probably pretty well in the closet until the 1970s.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
"Some members of BSA are Mormon" doesn't mean "BSA is a Mormon organization" any more than the fact that some Mormons drive Fords makes Ford a branch of the Mormon Church.
If you read through the HS site you will see that they did not just borrow the name. The organizational structure, rewards, ranks, and patch system are all borrowed heavily from BSA. So while it is convenient to label BS the bully here, HS does not pass the smell test of non-infringement. Not by a long shot. As a long time scouter, and maker, I fully appreciate what HS is trying to do. But creating a scene and yelling "but, we did it for the children" does not make it any more legit. You would need to be as ignorant as the poster to not see through the ruse. The act of "crying wolf" to twist the social media scene to falsely swing sentiment in your direction is getting old. I was happy to see the majority of posters see through the smoke screen and call it what it is.
I think you're completely disregarding that the BSA is a Mormon organization. Keep your unsexist, non-racist, scientific minded, freethinking kids far far away...
Right, because enlightened people don't want to be around narrow-minded bigots who stereotype others and advocate excluding them from activities they participate in because of a lack of decent values like... hmm... waitaminute.
... unless you're all for all the oaths and honors and other mindless appeals to duty and unquestionably of authority, second only to that of JROTC.
Yeah, no. Scouting tends to focus a lot more on both self-reliance and on helping others, in my experiences as a kid. I also find it kind of sad that you consider the words "honor" and "duty" to be contemptible things to teach to kids. The world would be a much better place if there more people felt a duty to their fellow man than to just themselves.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
What if 95% of the board of Ford are members of the KKK? Would that suffice in calling it a "racist organization"?
Your indefinite statements seem to indicate that you agree in fact, but wish to argue the details.
Learn to love Alaska
I was a closet atheist scout in the '80s. The church/scout links were so tight, there was no non-church troop anywhere near me. And joining one at a catholic church made me an automatic member of that church. They didn't even have a don't ask don't tell policy, like they developed later. They just had an "assume Christian" policy.
Learn to love Alaska
I don't know where you get this Christian crap. I was active in the BSA from 1975 until 1995 as both a youth and an adult. While it has always been clear that they support the belief that religion was important for good citizenship, I never saw any indications of an implication toward specifically Christian. The Synagogue that sponsor scout troops would also be rather surprised about this. I know that the books on religion included a number of non-Christian religious medals.
Hmm... should they call themselves the Maker Rangers? Or is the Army going to sue them too?
I was in Beavers for 3 years. I was in Cubs for 3 years, and I was a leader of Beavers in addition to being a Cub, and I was a Scout for 2 years and a leader of Cubs during that time.
I'm the eldest son from a navy family, and my father was gone more often than not. It's hard to learn to be a man when you don't have a role model, and the scouting movement gave me one. Not because I fell into it by accident, but because he took steps to mitigate the loss his absence brought. I'm very glad that he did. My experience has a great similarity to that of young men I see from broken homes being raised by single mothers, and when I look on them, I can see the negative consequences that he protected me from, and I'm grateful.
Boys and young men need masculine culture. It's important. The Scouting movement do the best they can to meet the need in a positive way, and they do a pretty good job. If you're not offering something better, you have no right to piss on them.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Yes, because no one would use "Scouts" for girls, would they?
Scout Willis?
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
You could issue a $0 license, and that would be a successful "defense" so far as trademark law is concerned.
Letting someone use something very similar to your trademarked name in the same market as you might be a good legal defense of the trademark but it would be a very ridiculous practical defense. If you don't want another group in the same market using a name that would be confused with your trademark, the right answer is to not allow it, not to give it away for free.
What if 95% of the board of Ford are members of the KKK?
That still doesn't make Ford a branch of the Mormon church. And just because some Mormons drive Fords won't force Ford to appoint anyone in the KKK (or the LDS church, for that matter) to the board of directors. That's not how companies work.
"Some scouts are Mormon" does nothing to make BSA a branch of the Mormon church.
Your indefinite statements seem to indicate that you agree in fact, but wish to argue the details.
Agree in fact with what? Your ridiculous implications that Ford has a bunch of KKK members on their board, or that BSA is an organization run by the Mormon church, or what? You've got no facts, just "some X are Y, thus all Y are X" logic to back up supposition.
The claim was that BSA was a Mormon organization because some Mormon churches host scout troops. That's the "fact" I'm refuting, and if you can read what I've wrote and come up with some idea I'm "agreeing in fact" with that, you're looney.
which to a degree has turned the BSA into an arm of their organization..
So THAT'S why the latest addition to the list of merit badges was one for baptizing living people on behalf of dead ones, and why all those elders on mission trips wear BSA uniforms. I'd heard that the stock in companies that make white dress shirts and black suit pants was tanking, and now I know why. I'm still seeing a lot of white shirt/black pants well-dressed young men walking around my neighborhood (there's a study center across the street). Maybe they just haven't gotten the word yet?
Perhaps, just maybe, the Mormons being a group that thinks religion is important, and BSA being a group that thinks religion is important, and Mormons having young people they want to reinforce that belief in, maybe Mormons might be hosting scout troops even without it being run by their central church? Just a thought.
But I guess if you hate religion so much, you'll lose the ability to distinguish the players on the other team and they'll all start to look alike after a while. It's a conspiracy, after all.
or at minimal they wield significantly more (and more organized) power over the whole group then the other religious organizations that support the BSA.
You know, I actually heard that a local Explorer Post hosted by the Catholic church was using the baptismal fount during their week-night meetings to baptize each other to save people whose names they are pulling from the phone book. And that the priest in charge of the church was helping them. He couldn't help himself, the local stake was controlling his mind with penetrating electrical waves acting upon his hypothalmus.
As part of my JROTC I got to shoot an M-60. The Boy Scouts had me camping in the parking lot of a church.
So, one group introduced you to violent ways of killing others, the other gave you tools to help you survive as a homeless person. Yes, I can see why you love one and hate the other. They made you camp out. The bastards.
I answered the question of what it takes to defend the trademark. The "desirability" of it is unrelated.
Learn to love Alaska
Even ignoring sexual orientation both organizations are openly sexist. Neither allows someone of the
opposite sex to join. Why shouldn't a girl who likes to camp be allowed to join Boy Scouts or a boy
be allowed to join Girl Scouts. The both should drop gender from their names and create programs
and policies that allow boys and girls with similiar interests to both join.
What did I say to indicate that one was "hated" and the other "loved"?
Someone else equated the two, so I shared my experience with both.
Learn to love Alaska
Not heaven forbid. I'm just pointing out that a lot of kids aren't really interested in church compared to "hacking."
Politics isn't explicitly part of it, but the culture is, from my experience, conservative.
Anyway, this was a joke, not a serious critique of the boyscouts.
If you aren't, then how did your comment add to the discussion?
Learn to love Alaska
No girls are not wanted nor are boys wanted maybe you should talk to some kids and ask them what they want. And its not wrong to have a male only group or a women only group why would i want to invade someone else group that doesn't want me? im glad there wore no girls in the boy-scouts when i joined at the age of 13 didn't want girls there either. And would have quite if forced to allow girls and gays.
Jack of all trades,master of none
They did thats right but as of now? i dont know if the new BSA allows gays then the church will not be involved nor host a group that has gays Im talking catholic here who knows what the other religions allow disallow. I should duckduckgo it. lol
Jack of all trades,master of none
For pointing me to an organization my kids would rather be in.
Wow, that idea is about as old as dirt, and has been thrashed out long ago....
A great post from 2004 talks about this and other ideas of Copyright in a digital age.
What Colour are your bits?
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Another lame excuse? No. There is a lot of illogical technicalities and corruption in law, and politicians and judges constantly try to get around the constitution by engaging in newspeak. They did this with the TSA and free speech zones, and they're trying to do this with the NSA. If you think there's a lot of logical thought put into this garbage, I can only hang my head in shame.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
In the real world, judges tend to frown upon people exploiting technicalities like that and rule against them regardless.
In the real world, judges try to exploit technicalities to allow the government to get around the constitution, or sometimes just pretend it doesn't exist. Like, for instance, the TSA, the NSA (that crappy secret court), and that 'fire in a crowded theater' case people love citing so much.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
Rather unfair. Many of them are crooks.
And don't say they aren't mutually exclusive. It's true, but irrelevant - crooks who are idiots tend to get caught rather quickly.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Whether or not you agree with it and whether or not it has any logic are totally orthogonal. And whether it's ethical/moral or not is orthogonal to both.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Whether or not you agree with it and whether or not it has any logic are totally orthogonal.
Well, I agree. But to say it's logical would just be foolhardy. I don't believe it's necessary for someone to delude him/herself into believing such things are logical.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
It's more the legislators that do the exploiting, trying to get around the judges.
I know plenty of girls that would rather join boy scouts than girl scouts.
Would it really change anything if it was "family scouts" instead?
They advertise it as "family camp" but it's not really. My daughter would
love to join boy scouts. She enjoys the same type of activities as her
brothers as do many girls I know.
As an additional note, in our local group she is allowed to attend
all the meetings with her brothers and do all the activities, she's
just not allowed to earn any merit badges, etc... so girls are still
present at every meeting and activity they just don't have the
same rights as the boys.
I agree that it happens more often with legislators, but some judges do tend to try to find 'creative' ways around the constitution.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
Scouting has finally openly embraced it's gay roots
For what it's worth, "several studies have found correlations between high testosterone levels and the frequency of homosexuality"
I dont know what the BSA bylaws are anymore i haven't been in the scouts since i was 17. You might be breaking the BSA rules/bylaws by allowing girls to be a part of the meetings.
Jack of all trades,master of none
Initially? Nothing more than any other church did(ie pull the program from their youth activities). In fact it was the initial dispute over this in the 90s that prompted my church to come up with an official young men's program should scouts ever lose it viability as a program to bring our young men up in. It's what we now use outside the US, and in conjunction with scouting in the US.
This is primarily done because of single parents and working parents
where the younger siblings are there anyway. My point is that not only
are girls already there and are generally allowed to watch and/or
participate but that it would make it easier on the parents of multiple
kids, would help promote the "positive family values" they are suppose
to stand for, etc.... It doesn't make sense any more sense to have a
group a single gender as it does to have an occupation as a single
gender. Yes, more boys are going to want to join scouts and football
and more girls are going to want to join gymnastics and ballet but you
shouldn't disallow a kid from joining just because they happen to like
an activity that has traditionally been for the other gender.
Doesn't matter what the reason is and if the girls are not soposta be there what are you teaching our kids? dont like the rules so just break them? Make your own Family Scout group dont force unwanted girls to a BSA group that doesn't/ want them.
Jack of all trades,master of none
The two aren't mutually exclusive; that's true. The two are mutually inclusive though. A crook is, by definition, an idiot.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
I never said anything that disagrees with that, so I can't figure out why you disagree so vehemently.
Because I didn't originally reply to you, I replied to someone who said that, and you are jumping in apparently defending that position.
You've not addressed the "influence" of the church on the BSA.
I don't have to. I wasn't responding to "influence". I was responding to a claim that BSA was run by the Mormon Church. Every member of an organization has influence over that organization. So what?
ignoring all logical arguments you encounter.
"Some A is B means All B is A". That's the "logical argument I'm "encountering". I haven't ignored that, I've pointed out that it is a logical fallacy.
Your words.
Several articles back. The one you replied to talked about Mormons driving Fords making Ford a Mormon company. You decided to switch back mid-stream for some reason, and yet I dealt as well. It doesn't matter, KKK, Mormon, the fact the some X drive Fords does NOT make Ford a company run by X. Live with it.
I just asked what if there were actual racists running Ford?
And I say, so what? It's irrelevant. They weren't put there because some racists buy Ford products. Companies do not appoint their board of directors that way. I told you that already. Come up with something else that proves that BSA is run by the Mormon church or admit that the claim is ridiculous.
Note, I'm not addressing the buyers, but the people that run it.
And the claim I'm talking about is that since Mormons are "buyers" of BSA products they are in control of BSA. If you're not defending that claim, stop defending that claim.
and when I first heard it I thought it was a Scout-related computer group.
Not very bright, are you ?
I was expecting a link for "To Kill a Mockingbird".
I am disappointed I didn't think of that too.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I was active both before and after that. I was perfectly welcome as a non-Christian, so long as I joined the church that hosted the troop (all Christian in my area). So Yes, All-Saints Catholic Church, Dallas was happy to accept atheists as full members, so long as they were also members of the scouts.
Learn to love Alaska
Come up with something else that proves that BSA is run by the Mormon church or admit that the claim is ridiculous.
Oh no, Someone used my own analogy against me! Quick, grab the ball and run!
Learn to love Alaska
Oh no, Someone used my own analogy against me!
First you claimed that the "racists running Ford" analogy was MY words, now you're claiming that it is your analogy being used against you. Seriously? Have you bothered paying attention to the discussion at all? You didn't seem to know that the claim I was responding to wasn't written by you, now the analogy authorship is slipping your mind.
What did I say to indicate that one was "hated" and the other "loved"?
Hyperbole. Billions of slashdot posters use it every day. You should be used to it by now. So you don't fully love one and don't fully hate the other. You like one and dislike the other. You smile when one is mentioned and frown for the other.
Pick your level and then deal with the concept that one teaches you to kill and the other to live when faced with limited resources, and that you prefer the one that taught you how to kill more efficiently.
Someone else equated the two, so I shared my experience with both.
Yes, we got that part. Your experience with scouts was that they forced you to camp out. Those bastards. Good thing Kenny wasn't a boy scout, the experience would probably have killed him.
I didn't particularly like either. JROTC got me out of gym. The camping was on a concrete surface surrounded by buildings and campfire stories had to be shouted over the sounds of traffic (the "campfire" was a propane stove). Almost like a traditional camp out.
Learn to love Alaska
" more than the fact that some Mormons drive Fords makes Ford a branch of the Mormon Church." is your words http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4265047&cid=44954055
The analogy (what it takes for a car company to be racist) is yours. I used it against you. You read my words as me talking to you. I wasn't talking to you, I was mocking you. You've come up with an analogy, and when that analogy is explored to try to gauge the thresholds to then compare to the original situation, you play dumb (or aren't playing).
What *would* it take for Ford to be racist? You seem to indicate the answer is "nothing can make it racist, I win!". But your arguments don't make sense. If 100% of the directors, executives, and employees and 100% of the buyers were members of the KKK, would that make it racist (presuming the KKK is assumed to be de facto racist)?
Learn to love Alaska
That's basically what I did for my family. I got the book and am teaching my kids (both boys and girls)
how to camp, make fires, archery, etc. as I realized that you're right that girls are "unwanted" and
"unwelcome" and it's very hard to tell my daughter that she isn't allow to participate and it's easier for
me and takes less time to teach my kids together than to have my boys learn at boy scouts and still
have to find the time to teach my girl on my own.
The analogy (what it takes for a car company to be racist) is yours.
First, you failed to quote all the words of the analogy. I doesn't start with the word "more". Second, it is not an analogy that says what it takes for a car company to be racist, it is an analogy about what DOES NOT MAKE A CAR COMPANY RUN BY A CHURCH.
You read my words as me talking to you. I wasn't talking to you,
You replied to something I posted, so I guessed you were talking to me. You wrote about "my words" without attributing that statement to anyone else, unquoted, presumably referring to yourself. And you talked about an analogy being used against you, which is what I have been doing continually - using it against you. My bad for not reading your mind instead of your words.
You've come up with an analogy, and when that analogy is explored to try to gauge the thresholds to then compare to the original situation, you play dumb (or aren't playing).
Your question asking if Ford did have racists on their board would they be run by racists is not a "threshold", it's asking "if Ford was run by racists would they be run by racists" without dealing with the issue of how those racists got there. It's a worthless question, and I'm not playing the game you want to play. The issue I've been responding to is a claim that BSA is run by the Mormon church because some Mormon churches host BSA troops. That's the game of the day.
Here's the fact. The fact that some Mormon churches host BSA troops does not mean BSA is run by the Mormon church. Period. End of sentence. That's the claim that I replied to, that's what you need to disprove if you want to argue with me about it. I'm sorry the analogies confused you, especially to the point that you need to keep referring to Mormons as racists. I apologize to my Mormon friends for giving you that opening to vent your hate.
What *would* it take for Ford to be racist? You seem to indicate the answer is "nothing can make it racist, I win!".
That's nowhere near what I said and you know it. I "seem" to indicate that "the fact that some Mormons buy Fords does NOT make Ford run by the Mormon Church." "A does not mean B". That you're pretending I argued "A does not mean B thus B can never happen" says more about your logic and reading comprehension than mine.
But your arguments don't make sense.
Perhaps because you're making them up and trying to stuff them into my mouth and you're deliberately trying to not make sense?
If 100% of the directors, executives, and employees and 100% of the buyers were members of the KKK, would that make it racist (presuming the KKK is assumed to be de facto racist)?
Once again, FMC does not appoint its board of directors based on the fact that some racists, (or Mormons in the actual analogy) buy their cars. They appoint directors based on business acumen and management ability. So, in terms of the original issue, you're assuming because Mormon churches host BSA troops that BSA has automatically appointed the Mormon Church as their board of directors, and then asking if that doesn't mean BSA is run by the Mormon Church. If you can't see how that is assuming the result you need to prove, then I can't help you.
Your question asking if Ford did have racists on their board would they be run by racists is not a "threshold", it's asking "if Ford was run by racists would they be run by racists" without dealing with the issue of how those racists got there.
Yeah, mainly because it's funny to watch you say things like that how a racist gets into a position of power changes whether they are a racist in a position of power. You are so interested in "proving" your opinion of BSA/LDS that you've shown you are unwilling to discuss the issue impartially.
Learn to love Alaska