Snowden Shortlisted For Europe's Top Human Rights Award

another random user sends this news from the BBC: "Edward Snowden, the fugitive American former intelligence worker, has made the shortlist of three for the Sakharov prize, Europe's top human rights award. Mr Snowden was nominated by Green politicians in the European Parliament for leaking details of U.S. surveillance. Nominees also include Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani teenager shot in the head for demanding education for girls. Former recipients of the prize, awarded by the European Parliament, include Nelson Mandela and Aung San Suu Kyi. Mr Snowden's nomination recognized that his disclosure of U.S. surveillance activities was an 'enormous service' to human rights and European citizens, the parliament's Green group said."

Comments

Comparative sacrifice

[themushroom]

Malala gets this one hands-down. Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[SecurityTheatre]

Agreed.

Normally I would scoff at Snowden being included on a list like this. I was a bit put off by Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize before actually doing anything, and a bit put off at Assange being nominated for something simliar, because both seemed like self-serving political statements to me, but on reflection, what Snowden has done was controlled, targeted and highly effective, in my opinion. It was far from the uncontrolled dump that Bradley Manning did, or the barely-controlled shitstorm that Assange supervised.

In the same vein, the leak, while angering many Americans, should be a huge benefit for citizens of every country, both outside the US, but also inside. A great gain for Europeans, as far as awareness of human rights issues.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not like you'd actually ask to be shot in the head to prove your worth. I could get shot trying to tie my shoelace, doesn't mean I worked harder than Snowden.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[anagama]

Snowden's revelations are much more important to the world as a whole. That the punishment wreaked on the person in Pakistan is much worse than that Snowden has yet received is beside the point. By exposing a corrupt machine that is used in the process of killing numerous innocents around the world through drone attacks is but one example of how Snowden's information can save many lives. Then of course there is the privacy right of the entire fucking planet. Female education abuses in some parts of Pakistan are important, but they just aren't anything like the scale of Snowden's whistleblowing.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Nemesisghost]

It's not like you'd actually ask to be shot in the head to prove your worth.

No, but it takes a lot more guts to stand up to armed gunmen for what you believe in than run away where they can't get you. She might not have chosen to take a bullet to the head, but she did choose to confront the cowards & show the world what they truly are and risk her life doing so. Unlike what some would like, Snowden only risked life behind bars.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[arobatino]

On the other hand, Snowden didn't know he'd be able to get asylum, and the death penalty was only taken off the table in an attempt to keep the Russians from giving it to him.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[timeOday]

That's the problem with this kind of award, it turns it into a contest which seems rather gauche. "Oh yeah, well this person got shot in the head, beat that!"

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

Malala gets this one hands-down. Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

Arguably, they are risking the same thing: Both knew that they were taking a bullet to the head risk. Only one got a bullet to the head. If we're judging these people on the basis of the risks they took on behalf of human rights, they are equal. If we're only judging them based on how much punishment they took for making the choices they did, then all human rights' awards would be post-humous.

Although both were risking death, the fact that one of them escaped it apparently matters to you. I sincerely hope you are a minority here -- thinking like this leads to terrorism. Afterall, if you can only be recognized after being turned into a martyr...

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[K. S. Kyosuke]

but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

For some reason, I misread this as "hanging at a Russian airport". Neither felt preferable to me.

But I still think that Iceland should have granted him asylum. Just think of the possibilities. "Hi, I'm Edward Snowden. Welcome to my snow den."

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[intermodal]

Agreed. I have been backing Malala for basically every humanitarian award since the incident, and despite Snowden's actions being incredibly important, Malala wins on such a fundamental level that nobody can possibly expect to compete with her on this if there is even a shred of honesty in this award. Seems so many awards have really turned into worthless tokens.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

because both seemed like self-serving political statements to me, but on reflection, ...

On reflection, all awards are self-serving political statements.

It was far from the uncontrolled dump that Bradley Manning did, or the barely-controlled shitstorm that Assange supervised.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people get up-modded these days for using toilet humor while discussing serious topics of global relevance.

In the same vein, the leak, while angering many Americans, should be a huge benefit for citizens of every country, both outside the US, but also inside. A great gain for Europeans, as far as awareness of human rights issues.

The leak by itself accomplishes nothing; The activities disclosed had already happened by then, and the damage done. And there is little evidence to date that the leaks have dampened the spirits of those under scrutiny to engage in similar behavior. Knowledge, understanding, intelligence, and awareness only enables action; It does not, by itself, constitute action. In truth, one of mankind's oldest delusions is belief that an enhanced understanding of the problem will necessarily lead to that problem being fixed. Snowden may have pointed out that the United States is behaving trashy... but we have yet to find someone willing to take out the trash.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[bill_mcgonigle]

Just think of the possibilities. "Hi, I'm Edward Snowden. Welcome to my snow den."

Yeah, but how you gonna get there if he's snowed in?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[ultranova]

Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

Both made important statements. However, that one managed to get away afterwards shouldn't weight against him.

Also, let's be honest here: that religion-dominated countries are horrible places to live is not news to anyone, nor is islamic countries being especially bad for women.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Gavagai80]

I'd have to say education is a much more important, more fundamental right than phone/internet privacy. The damage done to people and societies by preventing girls from going to school is much greater than the NSA reading their emails.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[bill_mcgonigle]

That's the problem with this kind of award, it turns it into a contest which seems rather gauche. "Oh yeah, well this person got shot in the head, beat that!"

That's reason enough to not use that as a criteria for the award. They should be asking how much of an impact the individual had on human rights and for how many people (and probably giving weight to impact on Europeans for this prize).

Malala was very brave, had a terrible thing happen to her, by very bad people, and stood up for an excellent cause. But, I fear that while it makes a great human interest story, if she was killed by the attacker, we probably would not have heard much of her story and she wouldn't be on the short list for the prize.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[kruach aum]

This is a human rights prize, not a guts prize. Utilitaristically, Snowden has done a lot more for a lot more people than Malala Yousafzai.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Livius]

Snowden was and continues to be at far higher risk of assassination than Malala. He's just been luckier.

So far.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Giving it to Snowden at least is partial reparation for the ludicrous decision of giving Big Brother Obummer the Nobel Peace Prize. He's been worse than dipshit Dubya in pretty much every category. And with Dubya being borderline retarded that's saying something:

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[ultranova]

But I still think that Iceland should have granted him asylum.

Iceland couldn't grant Snowden asylum. It's an island with no army and no neighbours to buffer it from US peacekeeping operation. Nor could it smuggle him out of country through a blockade.

France with its nuclear weapons might have worked.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[fredprado]

It is not phone/internet privacy. It is just privacy, period. And no, education, albeit important, is not more important than privacy or freedom.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[jeffmflanagan]

Snowden got in way over his head, fell in with a bad crowd (Greenwald/Wikileaks), and made himself into an FSB asset. This may wind up worse than what Malala experienced.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[bill_mcgonigle]

Unlike what some would like, Snowden only risked life behind bars.

Not so - Washington power brokers were calling for Snowden to swing from the gallows, and that's after he got NDAA'ed and waterboarded at Gitmo.

Obama offered to not execute him for one specific charge if Putin would give him up.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AlphaWolf_HK]

The leak accomplishes a lot. Maybe not in the short term, but in the long term it is causing us to take a much greater look at security that will not only prevent NSA style spying, but very easily could further harden the global cloud infrastructure at large against data breaches. Namely, if we go out of our way to secure our information against even those who have physical access to it, then it makes it that much harder for somebody else to get a hold if it as well, legally or not.

Something as big as this, hitting something as well established as what we already have, isn't going to change overnight or even over a year: This could take up to a decade because we're not only looking at software changes, but also hardware changes in a big ocean of already existing datacenters.

What I'm thinking of is data storage akin to mega where only the end user holds the keys. Others are already working on their own variants of this same concept, only they're trying to do so in such a way that makes content manipulation possible while leaving the data secured. Yes, I'm aware of the possible exploit of the website feeding you a bogus javascript page that steals your keys, however that can be fixed.

And by the way, I don't think he was upmodded for toilet humor, rather the message just happened to contain it. Besides, toilet humor has its place, and I think it's suitable here. If it offends you, you should probably disconnect from the internet and go live in a tree somewhere.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[interkin3tic]

This is a trivial tangent, but you seem to place more emphasis on not angering people than I do. Assange, Snowden, and Manning did upset a lot of Americans who thought they were traitors. I'm not sure how that matters. It wasn't a popularity contest, it was telling us our rights were being trampled on, and that we were doing ugly things.

How the message was delivered is less important as well. Manning couldn't exactly form a team to manage the data better without arousing some suspicions and shutting it down before it got anywhere. Lamo stabbed him in the back after all. And Assange may be an egomaniac, but people who do unusual things often are. Anyway, if the messenger is annoying, that may make you want to shoot him more if you already wanted to shoot someone for the message, but you should resist that temptation.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[GameboyRMH]

Was going to say the same thing, it's horrible that Malala got shot in the face but this isn't a Suffering At the Hands of Tyrants Award AFAIK.

And leaking proof that the NSA is spying on everyone on the planet and making a mockery of the US legal system > saying inspiring things in the name of women's education in a particular region of the middle east. Sorry.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Deluvianvortex]

Without education, there is no privacy or freedom. You are a slave to your masters with no hope of self-sufficiency.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

The leak accomplishes a lot. Maybe not in the short term, but

But nothing. No good or service has been generated by the leak. The idea that speech, in and of itself, accomplishes anything is stupid; Were it otherwise, I could march out into the woods and talk to the trees and make a fortune. Words are not actions. Words are words. When people listen, and choose to take action because of them, then the words have value. Not until, or unless. The founding fathers didn't just sit down, bang out the Constitution, and then call it at that, having won the entire revolutionary war. They said what they had to say, to organize people to fight. And when they fought, and won, those words became meaningful.

Leaking by itself accomplishes nothing. Nadda. Zip. If it offends you, you should probably disconnect from the internet and go live in a tree somewhere.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not phone/internet privacy. It is just privacy, period. And no, education, albeit important, is not more important than privacy or freedom.

You're shifting the goalpost. Privacy is not a necessary component of freedom (in truth privacy has always been an illusion anyway).

Education is more important than Privacy.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

It is also helping out the same people that shot the girl in the head for going to school. It is also helping out the cartels and gangsters by exposing programs to catch them and will create more victims out of the good people in the world.

Way to go...idiots.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[oodaloop]

Let's not forget that DoJ promised Snowden wouldn't be tortured if he were returned to the U.S. As in, it was on the table and everyone assumed that would happen. Getting shot in the head is the least of Snowden's concerns right now.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

The term "shitstorm" is not "toilet humor". It's not a joke nor used as one. You make decent posts most times but then you make ones with completely stupid statements like above.

Oh and in reference to "toilet humor" you do know that the authors of classics like Chaucer used toilet humor himself, right? The Canterbury Tales contains fart jokes in it. Shakespeare did as well.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

Malala gets this one hands-down.

If that happens, the spectacle has officially won. Someone saying something that's a brave thing to say and getting an unusually extreme reaction to it isn't even on the same scale as someone revealing a world-wide illegal conspiracy affecting pretty much everyone in the civilized world.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[umafuckit]

Snowden was and continues to be at far higher risk of assassination than Malala.

I don't think that's true. At this point Snowden being free is just embarrassing to the US. He's apparently already given the press everything he knows so killing him isn't going to improve anything from the NSA's perspective. On the other hand, if Snowden meets with a peculiar "accident" then the US government just comes out of it looking bad. Malala, on the other hand, is more than just an embarrassment to the extremists who shot her. She has chosen to remain vocal for her cause and therefore represents a continuing threat because she acts a nucleation site for the more liberal attitudes they are seeking to suppress.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Dasher42]

I'd have to say education is a much more important, more fundamental right than phone/internet privacy. The damage done to people and societies by preventing girls from going to school is much greater than the NSA reading their emails.

It's not just privacy. It's the right not to be scrutinized by an agency of a government that calls its own dissenting citizens who speak out about oil spills, bloody wars on false pretenses, dangerous chemical pollution, or corruption "terrorists". It's a right to have a voice and dignity and due process in a law-abiding country instead of being tampered with and manipulated by bought politicians serving as the lackeys of their for-profit corporate donors.

This ties into every issue anywhere that the NSA and related agencies project power, and that's all over the globe. It's everywhere a grassroots needs to step up to a corporate/government/financial juggernaut about anything, including the women in school in Pakistan.

This government will give everything you've sent or received through your phone or your laptop to a foreign agency with at most a rubber stamp from a court that the public knows nothing about, but will - yes - hand the educational system of America over to predatory lenders and ensconced social elites rather than earnest teachers and staff.

The government that is invading privacy is also denying your right to know about what is in your food and your medicine. Seen the recent headline about Bayer? This same government that has invaded all of our privacy still guarded Bayer's secrecy when its medication for hemophiliacs was infected with HIV and has thus allowed hundreds, perhaps thousands of people to be infected, to protect Bayer's profits at the cost of lives.

This government will record your every call, but it won't prosecute the banks which shredded the world's economy and have illegally foreclosed homes - some of which were owned by people who'd bought them with cash with no bank involved, ever, for "lack of evidence."

And yes, this government will send drones over skies foreign and domestic, and without due process fire missiles, napalm, chemicals, and bullets made of radioactive waste into civilian areas all over the planet, including Pakistan. Schools count, but imagine going to school where the missiles can fall arbitrarily. It will call the instigators of these crimes leaders, and the whistleblowers traitors, and use these privacy-invading tools to manipulate people and hunt down those who step out of line.

This government will protect Wall Street while infiltrating dissenting movements with psy-ops and undercover agitators who generate the props for cheap propaganda to justify gestapo tactics in a supposedly free country, and use its surveillance tools to know better how to deliver its deceitful war. PRISM is an abuse of power meant to help politicians abuse even more power at will.

Malala and Snowden have both done awesome things in the face of power that would crush them and kill them and then lie to the public about the whole matter, and it'd be stupid to compare their personal level of heroism. I mean, some of us might only get the clear opportunity to get a cat out of a tree, whatever our merit. Snowden got a chance to expose an oppressor of a much more central and global nature. That's what makes his arena more widely significant, and I think that deserves consideration.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, aren't you guys suppose to leave your office this morning due to the U.S. government shutdown?

Does your boss know you are still trolling forums?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[SuperBanana]

Malala gets this one hands-down. Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

I disagree, strongly. Have you actually listened to her speeches? Sample:

"If you want to see peace in Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan; if you want to end the war; to fight against the war; then instead of sending guns send books,â

Riiiiiiiiiiight. The only reason she's so popular is because she's a harmless photo-op for politicians who are sitting around doing noting. While everyone is happy to talk about little girls not getting to go to school because the Taliban blew up their school, nobody seems interested in the widespread murders of civilian boys and men, or conscription.

Most people think there's this massive imbalance in literacy rates. It's about 9%, between men and women.

That's unfortunate, but it hardly compares to the mass worldwide surveillance and conspiracies - or the courage required to acquire all those documents, leave your life behind, and kick a world power in the teeth.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

"Unlike what some would like, Snowden only risked life behind bars."

Only life behind bars? Funny things can happen in jail, you know. And maybe you should tell the innocents that were incarcarated in Guatanamo that they should be happy because they were still set free and not killed on the spot.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

A great gain for Europeans, as far as awareness of human rights issues.

I wish.

Unfortunately, the global elite that's playing power games is super-national and has been for many years. It's been very, very obvious that nobody in my countries government really gave a shit about the whole NSA stuff. I personally think that half of them would easily be convicted of breaking their oath to protect the constitution and the people, if only someone had the guts to bring charges.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't understand why y'all are having this hiss-fit. They're both equally necessary to freedom. If the founders of the US weren't both A) smart enough to realize the direction their lives were headed under the rule of England, and smart enough to take steps to correct this, and B) had enough privacy where they they could meet and plan these activities in the various pubs, halls and homes, quite frankly you'd not be having this conversation.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

Snowden only risked life behind bars.

What kind of fantasy world are you living in where pissing off several of the most powerful intelligence agencies is not risking your life? These guys routinely kill people for a lot less.

Plus awards should be given for what you did and what good that caused to happen, not for what evil has befallen you. If that were what matters, there are many thousands who had it much worse than a headshot.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Internet balls eh?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

Snowden was and continues to be at far higher risk of assassination than Malala. He's just been luckier.

So far.

Snowden is at no risk of assassination from the United States. He is at risk for arrest and prosecution for the crime of espionage. The most likely outcome of that would be a long sentence in prison. The only American citizens that the US has been targeting are those that have taken up arms against it such as al Qaida leader Anwar al-Awlaki .

If you want to claim otherwise, I think you need to provide some evidence.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Atzanteol]

I think that comparing "importance" is very difficult. But in this situation I think on the grounds of "impact" Snowden carries the day. But then I'm an American and see the impact of Snowden more first-hand.

It depends on what criteria this group judges by.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Livius]

Let's not forget that DoJ promised Snowden wouldn't be tortured if he were returned to the U.S. As in, it was on the table and everyone assumed that would happen.

Correct, everyone assumed that if Snowden were returned to the U.S. then his torture would happen.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I'd have to say education is a much more important, more fundamental right than phone/internet privacy"

If you think the big issue is that they were reading emails then you are one of the most clueless people on the planet.

" The damage done to people and societies"

There can be no greater damage to a (supposed) democracy than the undermining of every principle for which is stood. There are many countries where women are free to get an education, and I certainly insist that it is an inalienable right that none should be denied, however if that education is not the education that comes from a free society it is useless. The freedom to learn is only valuable if the content of the education is wholesome. It does no good to educate the boys and the girls when the class is held in a Hitler Youth Camp. If the education one receives is the kind that leaves one saying "what's the big deal about the NSA reading people's emails" in response to recent revelations, then that education is beyond useless. It is highly detrimental.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

what Snowden has done was controlled, targeted and highly effective, in my opinion

Does the world have more or less freedoms before or after what he did?
Am I the only one who questions what the cost of clandestine surveillance really is?
Seriously... if you didn't know about it until Snowden told you... what's the cost.

It's kind of like grabbing your neighbor's tools for a job and putting them back when you're done. If you didn't break and enter, there weren't any no trespassing signs, nobody told you to leave... what is it? An ethics issue FOR SURE, but not really a good area to claim a basic human right.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[icebike]

Except she had no idea what she was doing (if anything) at the time she did it, and only became a "hero" by surviving, or being saved by British doctors.

Snowden, on the other hand knew he was putting himself in the bullseye for the head-shot, knew ahead of time that he had to give up
everything he had, and would very likely end up (best case) in prison, or worst-case dead of a head-shot "trying to escape".

Malala has changed nothing, for all her suffering. Islam is still Islam. Snowden has changed the world.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

The founding fathers didn't just sit down, bang out the Constitution, and then call it at that, having won the entire revolutionary war. They said what they had to say, to organize people to fight. And when they fought, and won, those words became meaningful.

Says the person who is doing the exact same thing they are whining about.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[PrimaryConsult]

But without the leak, how would anyone even think action would need to take place? Acting on the information without revealing it would have guaranteed a stamp of "terrorist crackpot" and maybe a 3rd page article in a few papers. Would you rather small groups of people randomly taking action on suspicions and assumptions all of the time? Meaningful action requires being well informed.

Yes leaking by itself accomplishes nothing, but how much on this front be accomplished without the leak?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[CrimsonAvenger]

someone revealing a world-wide illegal conspiracy affecting pretty much everyone in the civilized world.

Note that the NSA's mandate is FOREIGN signals intelligence gathering. If the NSA listens in on every phone call in the world not involving a US citizen, then its actions are no more a "world-wide illegal conspiracy" than me asking my wife what's for dinner.

Now, listening in on US citizens is clearly outside their mandate, and thus illegal. The lying to Congress might be sufficient grounds to make it a conspiracy.

Even then, it's only an illegal conspiracy affecting most American citizens (arguably American residents, legal or otherwise)....

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

As in, it was on the table and everyone assumed that would happen.

On what basis?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[icebike]

Yes, because we all know how successful government spying on every citizen had managed to keep Muslim militants in line and cartels and gangsters from existing.

Boston Marathon bombing.
Sarin Gas attack by Syria.
School shooting rampages
9/11
1000 killed by car bombs in Iraq in September alone
One Drug Killing every half hour in Mexico

With protection like that, who needs them!

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sjames]

So, your contention is that there is no point in reporting a crime because 'the activities disclosed had already happened by then, and the damage done'?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[fredprado]

Nah, you are inverting stuff here. Without privacy and freedom there is no education, only indoctrination.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[fredprado]

Yes it is. Without a fair amount of privacy there is no freedom.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[pr0nbot]

Maybe he meant "uncontrolled dump"?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Livius]

The only American citizens that the US has been targeting are those that have taken up arms against it such as al Qaida leader Anwar al-Awlaki .

And that was proven in which court of law?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TrekkieGod]

This is a human rights prize, not a guts prize. Utilitaristically, Snowden has done a lot more for a lot more people than Malala Yousafzai.

What's the purpose of the prize? Typically it's the increase awareness of the issue, in order to help motivate change. Everyone's talking about Snowden and NSA surveillance. Plenty of people are talking about Yousafzai as well, but I think that cause would benefit from the extra attention more than the anti-surveillance issue would benefit. Snowden getting the prize is really just going to deteriorate into a conversation about anti-US sentiment in Europe, instead of the real issue.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[bware]

It was far from the uncontrolled dump that Bradley Manning did

Not unlike Snowden, Manning passed on encrypted files to three media outlets for them to publish after redaction and vetting, but David Leigh and Luke Harding of The Guardian were not as careful as Manning, and managed to leak the passphrase. But "the dump" wasn't Manning.

All this is on Wikipedia.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[godel_56]

Malala gets this one hands-down. Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

But Malala didn't volunteer to get shot in the head, that was done to her, although she has displayed great personal fortitude since then.

Contrast that with Snowden who deliberately gave up his career, his family, his girl friend, and his life to date to reveal the US's dirty doings. My Vote is for Snowden.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

Al-Awlaki was quite open in his declarations. If you bothered to read the previously linked story it shows he was directly connected to multiple plots.

He placed himself in the same status as the American citizens represent here that were also shot dead en mass by the US federal government without arrest, charge, trial, conviction, or sentence. It wasn't needed in their case, it wasn't needed in his. He decided to make war on the US, the US made it back.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike what some would like, Snowden only risked life behind bars.

What?! Snowden risks US reprisals far beyond life behind bars. He could be sent to Guantanamo or a similar but secret location to be tortured for the rest of his life - which is much worse than a quick death by head shot. He could also get actually shot in the head or otherwise murdered as an enemy of the United States. These are things that have already happened to people who have done much less to piss off high-ranking United States officials.

Snowden is probably safe in Russia for as long as he is welcome there, but that outcome was not at all certain at the time that he chose to blow the whistle and it's still not certain that he will continue to be protected by Russia.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

... did upset a lot of Americans who thought they were traitors.

"A lot of" Americans did not know what to think about them untl our glorious media chimed in to point them in the Right direction.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[jeffmflanagan]

Yes, because I didn't go off the deep-end with Ars and /. I must work for the government. Get a grip dopey.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Darinbob]

The punishment in Pakistan is being dumped on a whole class of people, not just one girl. The scale of drone attacks is large, but the scale of terrorist attacks and roadside bombs and retaliation attacks and honor killings is larger, and that's before you get into the whole issue of depriving an entire generation and gender of education and rights.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Darinbob]

I doubt death penalty was ever on the table, except in the words of some politicians trying to score points.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Manning was tortured and he didn't piss off nearly as many important people as Snowden has. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that Snowden will be tortured as well should the United States ever get their hands on him. Though, of course, what will happen is that the United States will refuse to call it torture. They might even outsource it inmates - put him in a cell with violent people known to hate him, then go for a good long smoke break. Though that's a very clumsy way of doing it - I'm sure they'll be much smarter about it, like they were with Manning.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[s.petry]

Both are important. Without freedom you can only receive the eduction someone wants you to have. Without "proper" education you don't know what freedom is. You are both correct, and neither is more important than the other.

To that end, that is why the US Constitution and Bill of Rights define what our liberties are. None weigh more than another, since all are required to be a "free" person.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[feufeu]

...especially if it's supposed to be mainly supposed to harm a few people in the uncivilized world (whatever that means...).

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

The USA is using that as subterfuge, once they have him, he will never see daylight outside of a prison cell, you can guarantee it.

Interesting Captcha: "traitors" - I'm not joking either.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[s.petry]

Well stated, too bad I have no mod points.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Right, because clearly if nobody ever revealed anything about the NSA spying, we'd still magically know about it anyways and we'd already be taking countermeasures.

Seriously, how can you be so stupid? The speaking is what inspired people to act. We didn't simply attack the British troops and say "there, we're separate now." Works like "Common Sense" from people like Thomas Paine, as well as numerous other acts of speaking are what inspired the colonists to rebel, and it didn't just all magically happen in one day; the events leading up to the revolution spanned years before it was officially declared. And I especially like how you throw the constitution in there, because it wasn't ratified for a good 12 years until after we declared independence (prior to that the US was a confederacy.) Really, get a clue dude, or at the very least stop arguing just for the sake of arguing, which is what all of your posts seem to do.

The Snowden leaks are leading to a big change - it just isn't happening overnight.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Em Adespoton]

... did upset a lot of Americans who thought they were traitors.

"A lot of" Americans did not know what to think about them untl our glorious media chimed in to point them in the Right direction.

Our Glorious Media chiming in by itself accomplishes the same nothing that the initial leak accomplished... shifting mass perception of a subject. However, unlike the media, Snowden didn't do much editorializing, but left it to individuals to draw their own conclusions.

If a tree falls in Tines Square, you'd better bet that it'll not only make a noise, but that noise will be heard by butterflies around the world. You'll always get people blaming the tree planters, searching for the cause of the tree falling, arguing that Times Square shouldn't have been there in the first place, etc. THAT's what doesn't matter.

The reaction to the leaks shows that to many influential people, the leaks DO matter.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect you'll be modded down or insulted since you are unpleasantly correct.
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao Zedong

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[slick7]

Snowden's congratulations from the US will be via the Predator drone circling above as we speak.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Gavagai80]

Education can help you learn how to disagree with people/governments in a considered and balanced way without the absurd hyperbole and Godwining. Once you become smart enough to understand the real and somewhat valid reasons why many people happily surrender more privacy than they should, you can have a rational discussion in which you can address their points and convince them of why they're wrong. Otherwise you're just spewing your own views into an echo chamber.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike what some would like, Snowden only risked life behind bars.

Yes, because clearly the US government are above killing people without a proper trial.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

Not so - Washington power brokers were calling for Snowden to swing from the gallows, and that's after he got NDAA'ed and waterboarded at Gitmo.

Which is all nonsense. Pundits and legislators have no power over the prosecutorial or judicial process. The only people sent the Gitmo, less than 800 ever, were people known or thought to be connected to al Qaida or other related terrorists groups. The US only waterboarded three people in total, the last of which was ten years ago.

You don't have any information linking Snowden to al Qaida, do you?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

But without the leak, how would anyone even think action would need to take place?

I don't know with any certainty that Snowden's disclosures caused a fundamental shift in how people view the problems of government surveillance. If you were against it before, you still are. If you're for it, you still are. I don't see many people changing their opinions either way on the basis of what he has (or hasn't) said. While he certainly has caused a lot of people to talk about the problem, I do not see many people doing anything about it.

Acting on the information without revealing it would have guaranteed a stamp of "terrorist crackpot" and maybe a 3rd page article in a few papers.

Actions speak louder than words. Snowden would have made a much bigger impression by blowing up a data center than talking about it. NOT that I am suggesting that violence is the answer here; My example is illustrative, not recommended.

Would you rather small groups of people randomly taking action on suspicions and assumptions all of the time?

I would rather nobody who cares about making social change be doing anything "randomly", let alone taking action on "suspicions and assumptions". But there is no suspecting or assuming necessary to figure out the government has a massive surveillance network. They've been in bed with the telecom industries since the 1960s, and this is well and amply documented. Wiretaps have been part of TV law dramas for decades. It would be naive to assume they simply stopped with telephones when new technologies like the internet came along.

Yes leaking by itself accomplishes nothing, but how much on this front be accomplished without the leak?

It is not necessary for someone to prove that a human right is needed before one takes action to safeguard it; It should be obvious by merely observing what has happened to groups that lacked them. Our young men and women sign up everyday to defend freedom, without really know what they're signing up for. They take an oath to stand between who and what they love, and everything that would threaten it.

There is no chicken and egg problem here. Who was it that said eternal vigilance is the price of freedom? He did not say eternal discussion is its price -- we should listen, watch, and observe, much more than we talk. Afterall, we have two ears, but only one mouth.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know with any certainty that Snowden's disclosures caused a fundamental shift in how people view the problems of government surveillance.

Then you aren't paying attention.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

Right, because clearly if nobody ever revealed anything about the NSA spying, we'd still magically know about it anyways and we'd already be taking countermeasures.

The NSA's standard operating practice is to assume that a system has already been compromised. Borrow a page from their playbook: If your security and privacy is truly important to you, shouldn't you have already been taking steps to protect it? Do you not lock your doors, despite an absence of evidence of houses being broken into in your neighborhood? Do you not check your wallet after being bumped by a stranger, to make sure it's still there?

To borrow your own words: Seriously, how can you be so stupid?

The Snowden leaks are leading to a big change - it just isn't happening overnight.

Yes, I see the streets lined with protesters. I see mass letter writing campaigns. I see the public pressure is causing our president and other elected officials to condemn the actions of the NSA. On the evening news every night are stories of vigilante citizens smashing cameras and throwing away their cell phones, wearing T-shirts with anti-surveillance slogans, and more.

Actually, no I don't. In fact, it seems to have amounted to a tempest in a teapot. The only thing Snowden accomplished was giving the international community another bullet point on its list of "Reasons We Don't Like America"; And most of those reasons belay the more fundamental truth -- nobody likes someone who's doing better than they are. And our military is the best on the planet, and our economy the largest. At least for today. Most of these anti-american tears that websites like the Guardian run with are rooted in the simple human emotion of jealousy. And all Snowden's really accomplished, is given those people a sense of moral superiority to go with it.

So far all Snowden has done is take a bunch of things we already had good reason to suspect and provide some heresay evidence of; There haven't been any "smoking gun" documents revealed... not by him anyway. He bent over, mooned the USA, then got trapped in a Russian airport for a few months... and the only reason the Russians let him stay there, is because it gave them some small satisfaction watching the mighty United States whine impotently to them. And do you know why they found it so satisfying? Because the very agency Snowden fled from was instrumental in the Soviet coup de etat that caused the USSR to breakup and Russia to lose its status as an economic superpower.

All Snowden has done is given people who already had a side picked out a little extra in their christmas stockings. He hasn't convinced anyone to change teams. He hasn't caused mass insurrection; He hasn't even managed to get more than a few dozen people in front of the local courthouses carrying signs. Dimitri Skylarov managed more political activism than this guy.

So don't sit there and tell me "It's coming! Viva la revolution! You'll see... one day!" ... Please. If it was gonna hit the fan it would have happened by now and you know it. Snowden's leaks won't even make the top 10 list of "Biggest things to happen in 2013", should we go back and compile such a list in, say, 2020. Now on the other hand... the legalization of marijuana and gay marriage, Obamacare, and the current Iranian crisis... those will make the list.

Get some perspective, man.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

Then you aren't paying attention.

My well-reasoned replies to my emotional detractors notwithstanding, it may just be possible that I simply view other things as more important than what the NSA is doing right now. The NSA's surveillance is an abstract problem for libertarians and internet pundits. People starving, going without healthcare, not being able to get married -- all of which have been news in just the last few months... those things affect tens to hundreds of millions in a very direct and personal way, every day, right now. People like you blather on the internet spitting at anyone who says it's not a big deal...but in truth, it isn't.

It's a problem, but I have bigger priorities (as do most others) than "Is the guv'ment spying on me while I masturbate?" Priorities like watching people I know and love wither and die because of a lack of access to medical facilities. How is that even right in a country that has the largest economy on Earth? Take a walk through some of the inner city schools -- there's black kids there that look like holocaust victims from hunger and malnutrition. Detroit is a crime-ridden wasteland that is more dangerous to drive through than a village in Iraq filled with Taliban. We've had entire cities in the past few years literally washed into the ocean, and you can still see the devastation from space. Very little help has come to those people from our government.

So don't try and tell me I'm not paying attention because I find your little pet peeve about some government g-men keeping you under surveillance! In truth, you aren't that damned important. They don't care about you. I would fucking love it if the NSA setup a black van outside my house and monitored me. It might make the fact that I'm stuck in my mom's basement, unemployed, feel not as bad -- because I've had to pass up one job after another because I can't get decent healthcare with part time jobs or pretty much anything that brings in less than $23 an hour. And those jobs... they're as rare as unicorns right now. And before you go blithering on like some moron trying to change topics -- this isn't about me. I'm just one example amongst an entire generation of examples. There are over fifty million people right now just like me, and not all of them are as fortunate as I am to even have a roof over my head or the internet to make this post.

Get your head screwed on straight: Personal privacy is an issue, but it's not a priority and it doesn't trump more basic needs like food, shelter, and clothing -- and we need those right now. A lot of people need them. We are now coming up on year SEVEN and economists estimate that unemployment levels won't return to pre-recession levels for ANOTHER seven years. Don't tell me Snowden matters. Don't tell me the NSA is important. We have hungry people out there. Hungry, desperate, unemployed people.

I took a message, okay? And if and when I run into an opportunity to tell the NSA where to shove it, yeah, I'll remember The S(nowden) Files... but until then, don't try and dictate priorities to me. We're in bad times right now man.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Malala gets this one hands-down. Both made very important statements we must pay attention to, but a fucking headshot beats hanging out in a Russian airport IMHO.

Once the US captures Snowden, he will WISH he got a headshot.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

"The US only waterboarded three people in total, the last of which was ten years ago."

Hahaha. Reaaallly? The US only waterboarded three people? You genuinely think this?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AHuxley]

Cold you may like some more background into the US policy of killing its own citizens:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/us/us-acknowledges-killing-4-americans-in-drone-strikes.html

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[DMJC]

What about effectiveness of the statement? Malala is hardly going to change anything in Afghanistan. The reality is her culture hates women, and that's not going to change next year, or probably the next 200 years. Not without an army taking control of the entire country, and forcing the entire population to change their beliefs. The governments of the world no longer have the stomach for that sort of program so the US/AU/EU governments will pull out, and Afghanistan will collapse back into it's 13th century ways. What Snowden has done on the other hand has global repurcussions. Because of Snowden governments in Latin America are already looking to move off of US based IT products, Chinese manufactured switches/routers are going to get a huge cash boost from this, and Linux is going to pickup a lot of users trying to get away from US government domination of their networks. I expect in 5 years time this will have been a watershed moment and the beginning of a slow long-term collapse of US technology companies.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[wiredlogic]

Such a cynic. He merely has an elevated risk of having an accident.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AHuxley]

Re;The US only waterboarded three people in total, the last of which was ten years ago.
The US does not like to call it "water boarding" so they can say it was not common or not used or not found.
If you do some reading Cold you can easily find the term the US liked was "wet towel" technique to contain the perception of water boarding.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Concerned Onlooker]

And you're overdue for some basic instruction in decency. Also, ad hominem attacks are not an acceptable alternative to debate.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Snowden getting the prize is really just going to deteriorate into a conversation about anti-US sentiment in Europe, instead of the real issue.

Anti-US Really? People from some countries hate all Western nations because of their constant interference with their country. And many people from other countries believe the Americans are still in the acute stage of rape trauma syndrome since 9/11. But anti-US? Only Americans would think that way, after all they're a young culture and take things personaly, and they're very defensive. Most people aren't anti-US, in fact they're waiting for Americans to stop being so damned defensive and competitive, and start cooperating so we can go back to a mostly peaceful world.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2007/11/exclusive-only/

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

The US only waterboarded three people in total, the last of which was ten years ago.

You are either an idiot or you are a lying sack of shit.

Either way, your words on Slashdot are a joke to 99% of the regular
audience here.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

Here is the report, A., do you have any more on it?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[DrJimbo]

It was far from the uncontrolled dump that Bradley Manning did ...

Manning never did an uncontrolled dump. He released documents to news organizations so those organization could vet them and release only what was proper to be released. That was the responsible thing to do under the circumstances. It is the same thing Snowden did. It's true that someone in one of the organizations Manning released to screwed up and published a private key that let everyone see all the documents but that was clearly not Manning's fault.

Please stop spreading the malicious lie that Bradley did an uncontrolled dump.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[cold fjord]

The other possibility is that I'm simply better informed in many respects than most people on some topics.

If you have data to show that this is wrong, please provide it. If you don't, then I'm not going to worry about your uninformed opinion.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AHuxley]

Thats the CIA talking about the "CIA" in 2007 Cold i.e. 'according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials'.
Interesting thats just around the "CIA destroyed video of 'waterboarding' al-Qaida detainees" http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/dec/07/usa.humanrights
Other term used might be "Category III" techniques, "harsh techniques", "water treatment", "near asphyxiation from water" or a suggested "wet towel and dripping water to induce the misperception of suffocation".
Starting to see a pattern Cold? If you can define away the actual term "waterboarding", then proudly list the departments and agencies that did not engage in torture.... any gov agency can get very low "waterboarding" usage numbers :)

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Being from Australia and learning we have been routing all data ( NOT meta data and included voice ) to the US for over a decade now seems to be an illegal conspiracy affecting my world.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[noh8rz10]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. the girl who was shot in the head didn't accomplish anything, either. but her example and story and sacrifice spurred others to action. same for the snowden leaks. they definitely opened my eyes, influenced my political activities, and altered my own online habits. it seems just a good an impact as anything.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[noh8rz10]

tldr. you're kinda grumpy about this. why all worked up?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[khallow]

No good or service has been generated by the leak.

So obviously there's no good there. Snowden's leak didn't make a car or a basket. But to claim that there is no service there?

Warning us (who for the most part aren't trees) about several abuses of government power by one of the more unaccountable organizations of the US. That has value to me and hence, is a service. Especially, when it gets confirmed by the powers that be.

They said what they had to say, to organize people to fight.

So speaking words to organize people to fight tyranny? That's a service in my book.

If it offends you, you should probably disconnect from the internet and go live in a tree somewhere.

There's no need here to QQ the internet. Just stop being an idiot for a time.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

so what exactly makes it more important here: the fact he's american, or the fact he's male?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Artifakt]

Under US law, there's a very specific definition of Treason, and Snowden, at least, hasn't come anywhere close to it. (I don't see any real case for the others either, and a military court evidently agrees with my assessment about how far Manning's actions fell short of Treason, but for Snowden in particular, there just isn't anything to support even impaneling a grand jury to look at a claim of Treason - hell there isn't anything that would justify putting a detective on the job of investigating further.).
            It's like Murder. It really doesn't matter if fifty million Americans think a person has comitted murder by leaving the cap off their toothpaste, those fifty million are just plain wrong. What's scary is the big chunk of those fifty million who say things like, "I don't give a damn what the Constitution says - Screw what the Constitution says, he's still really a traitor.". How did we end up with so many people who who seem to hate everything America stands for, yet want to punish somebody else with death for not loving America enough?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[ColdWetDog]

You seem to need a tad of perspectiveness. There aren't many year arguing that the Snowden leaks are the Most Important Thing in the Known World. They won't stop hunger, rape, slavery or even the dent the War on Drugs.

They may well be a turning point in how Internet surveillance is conducted and more important, thought about. It takes lots of people banging on our little tin drums way down here to make you overreaching Godlike philosphers of the Big Picture aware of some things. If you really are worried about those great issues, you should probably hang out on a philosophy mailing list and leave Slashdot for a while. We're not much focused on the big picture down here. Nobody gives us windows (well, not the right kind of windows, anyway).

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[russotto]

You are absolutely correct. 1984 is here, the proles don't care, and it's boot stamping on a human face forever time. But why are you so happy about it?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TheGratefulNet]

aka, project Taco Bell.

(sorry for the imagery)

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TheGratefulNet]

How did we end up with so many people who who seem to hate everything America stands for, yet want to punish somebody else with death for not loving America enough?

fox news. I blame them and those like them.

systematically programming people to believe what is not true and be so goddamn sure about it, too.

by keeping the american people fighting among ourselves, they distract us all from the real issues. its a tactic and sadly its working well for those in power who want to keep the status quo.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

My well-reasoned replies

Not really, no. You just argue just to argue.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[murdocj]

Overdramatic, much?

You might try reading 1984, if you really think the present is anything like that novel.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TheGratefulNet]

I disagree.

pakistan has their problems and frankly, I don't care one bit about what issues they have. they are localized to their own culture and we have no business even trying to change their culture. they own their own and when they are good and ready, they'll change. maybe.

otoh, the NSA taps the whole world and I do believe that privacy is a core fundamental right of every single person.

what pakistan does affects one country. the NSA fucks things up for everyone. its far more serious and affects pretty much everyone on the planet who has a login of some kind. that includes anyone who uses a cellphone (ie, everyone).

we all know the muslim culture has problems. but it was not widely known how evil the NSA and parts of the US gov were. now, thanks to snowden, the dirty laundry is out for everyone to see and that's a good first step in fixing this evil.

privacy is a form of freedom. and YES, it god damn matters A LOT. america used to stand for freedom. I'd like to see us restore our national pride that we've lost over the last few decades. fixing the NSA problem would go a long way toward restoring our place in the world as a world leader.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Internet balls eh?

I think they're innies, not outies.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TheGratefulNet]

France with its nuclear weapons might have worked.

france would have, uhm, surrendered him. that's a given!

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me boil your rant down for you: If you have nothing to hide...

In short, you're an idiot. Another one of those stupid, useless idiots that should jump off a bridge.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[khallow]

I don't know with any certainty

So what? There's a lot we don't know with any certainty. And as that AC noted, you could have educated yourself on this subject and be further along than "don't know".

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AHuxley]

Re your 'food, shelter, and clothing -- and we need those right now" are connected to safe communications world wide.
The standardisation of law enforcement telco systems has gifted many evil govs the tools (via Western contractors) the ability to watch any NGO, protest movements, law reform efforts, unions, human rights workers, former political leaders, authors, or the press working in the "food, shelter, and clothing" areas.
Snowden matters as he was the final connection allowing good people in tech support, coders, cryptographers, developers to go to their 'boss' and seek air gaps or change their network/database/crypto deployment/software buying habits.
Done right it will need physical site access to get the same data out that once could be seen from/via networks.
Junk net encryption bought the US 10 years (not going way back to telegram reading) but the faulty devices are still in use, still been bought.
What other groups, people, govs will get days, months, many years of data access once they start looking at faulty imported tech?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing you though Animal Farm was just plain ridiculous because animals can't talk. Allegories are hard.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[TheGratefulNet]

Malala has changed nothing, for all her suffering. Islam is still Islam. Snowden has changed the world.

very true.

while malala is a hero, she will change nothing in the muslim world. they are not ready to change and I'm not sure anyone is really surprised at the treatment of women over there.

otoh, most americans were like ostriches with their heads buried, in terms of the surveillance state we live in. those of us who had some idea what was going on were in the minority. now, everyone knows that the NSA cannot be trusted and operates illegally, at the will of those in power (or worse, at their own will!)

embarrasing the US may be the only way to get the US to change. and the US can change.

I can't say the same for muslim countries. I doubt we'll see any meaningful change in our lifetimes, in that region of the world. sad to say it, but I really have no hope for those countries.

otoh, the NSA is affecting the freedom of EVERYONE on this planet. much bigger of an issue than one religion's backward views toward half of its population.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

They may well be a turning point in how Internet surveillance is conducted and more important, thought about.

The internet pundits still haven't realized that the main source of privacy-invasion isn't the government but their manager. And they're a lot less professional about it... and have fewer rules.

We're not much focused on the big picture down here.

Yes, I've noticed. But I still maintain that the ability to see the forest from the trees is a valuable skill; If only because it's so rare these days...

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

Yes, because we all know how successful government spying on every citizen had managed to keep Muslim militants in line and cartels and gangsters from existing.

Yes... let's have a closer look, shall we?

Boston Marathon bombing
Caught with the assistance of a multitude of surveillance cameras in the area. The internet pundits identitifed the wrong people, repeatedly. This shows that not only is surveillance important, but that processing surveillance data is not something that an untrained, or even talented, individual can do.

Sarin Gas attack by Syria
Thanks to real-time satellite intelligence over the middle east, we were able to not only spot the attack, but able to warn local health care of the impending crisis. The casualty count was very low considering thousands were exposed; This was not accidental. As well, those same satellites allowed near real-time communication between activists and the global community, assisting in bringing prompt political pressure to the government to cease use of chemical weapons. As a direct result of that, a few weeks later, the government agreed to surrender its entire stockpile.

School shooting rampages
Cameras in schools have allowed us to quickly identify attackers and separate facts from fiction. One of the earliest examples is the Columbine massacre, where review of surveillance footage was able to provide immediate identification of the attackers, as well as their moment by moment movements within the school. Eyewitness accounts were highly divergent and many myths, including that they were purposefully targeting christians, came out of that. The camera, however, had no such agenda, and recordings set the record straight.

9/11
An unprecidented terrorist attack caught on film by dozens of eyewitnesses is a strong barrier against accusations that the government planned it, that the airplanes were loaded with explosives, and a great many other conspiracy theories. Videographic evidence has been able eliminate all of these. As well, a global network of satellites was able to gather valuable scientific data on contrails during the time where there were no flights over the United States; Being able to have high resolution copies of all clouds over the entire continent generated valuable data for weather forcasting and the impact on contrails in the natural environment.

1000 killed by car bombs in Iraq in September alone
Iraq lacks much in the way of surveillance. Many of those planting car bombs are never caught because there are no pictures until after the bomb explodes.

One Drug Killing every half hour in Mexico
Mexico contains very little in the way of surveillance gear, except that used by the drug cartels to track the movements of both rival gangs and local law enforcement. They have even built their own cellular communications network; The labor was provided by kidnapped telecoms employees. Needless to say, without access to surveillance equipment, Mexican authorities have no way to get a handle on the problem, and it is running rampant.

With protection like that, who needs them!

Your own examples provide an ample rebuttal to your snarky reparte here; In fact, surveillance has provided a great deal of protection in every case mentioned... and where it was lacking, unattributed violence and mass acts of terrorism is present.

I think this provides clear and unambiguous evidence that surveillance does help keep crime down; Not just those "muslim militants" and "cartels and gangers", but police officers as well. Dash cameras have led to more than a few corrupt officers being dismissed, and our courts are less clogged with traffic court cases than ever before -- thanks in part to impartial video footage that shows every detail. Conviction rates have improved as well, as anyone who watches the TV series Cops can attest to -- there's many things an officer misses during a pursuit that the camera records. Like how 7 minutes into the chase, they threw their drugs out the window, or a gun, etc. These are things officers can then go back and recover, before children come across them and injure or kill themselves.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Deluvianvortex]

No, you can be private and think you are free but just not know enough to understand you're still a slave. Without education, there is no real privacy or freedom. They're just words to define something else you were told. Unless you can understand what makes you private or free, you can't have either.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Get your head screwed on straight: Personal privacy is an issue, but it's not a priority and it doesn't trump more basic needs like food, shelter, and clothing -- and we need those right now. A lot of people need them. We are now coming up on year SEVEN and economists estimate that unemployment levels won't return to pre-recession levels for ANOTHER seven years. Don't tell me Snowden matters. Don't tell me the NSA is important. We have hungry people out there. Hungry, desperate, unemployed people.

Justice delayed is justice denied. There's no reason why this can't be addressed at the moment either. On top of that; lack of food, shelter and clothing aren't exactly a major problem in the US - this is nothing more than a red herring because you're just another one of those who believes that privacy is unimportant. If you did think it was important, you wouldn't be trivializing it in the face of an issue that has little to no bearing on American citizens. (Failing that, then it's as I stated earlier: You argue just to argue.)

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AlphaWolf_HK]

The NSA's standard operating practice is to assume that a system has already been compromised. Borrow a page from their playbook: If your security and privacy is truly important to you, shouldn't you have already been taking steps to protect it?

Exactly, and before these leaks most people just assumed that their data would be safe anyways. Now they know otherwise. That is why it is important.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Would have been cleverer if you had written it as "snow'd e(i)n"

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[mjwx]

You seem to have missed the point.

Your rebuttal seems to have demonstrated how surveillance technologies, mostly in the hands of private entities have aided after the event

The GGP implied that government surveillance did not stop events like these. In particular, the NSA surveillance.

Boston Marathon bombing
Caught with the assistance of a multitude of surveillance cameras in the area.

Who owned the cameras, Boston PD, businesses and private entities in Boston or the NSA?

Sarin Gas attack by Syria
Thanks to real-time satellite intelligence over the middle east, we were able to not only spot the attack, but able to warn local health care of the impending crisis.

This is a tenuous link at best. A very long bow to draw. In reality it probably did SFA to help the victims given the limited humanitarian resources in the area and the fact they were in a war zone.

But again it did not do anything to stop the attack. Further more, this is the CIA's regular duties of foreign surveillance that proves no value in the NSA's domestic surveillance.

School shooting rampages
Cameras in schools have allowed us to quickly identify attackers and separate facts from fiction.

Again, how were the attacks stopped by government surveillance?

And again, who owned the cameras?

9/11
1000 killed by car bombs in Iraq in September alone
One Drug Killing every half hour in Mexico

Here you've cited a lack of surveillance. When the NSA surveillance fails to foil the most poorly planned mass shooting how will more cameras and wiretaps help here? The simple answer is that it wont. In fact, all you've managed to show is that surveillance is only good after the fact and wont help in stopping an attack. The car bombs in Iraq are a direct result of the US removing a oppressive yet stable government which was, whilst brutal managed to keep the various ethnic and religious groups from fighting. School and mass shootings are a cultural problem and can only be stopped by fixing the culture around guns. Domestic killings can only be solved by better police work. Tapping the phones of every American and putting cameras on every street corner wont fix a damn thing. There is practically a camera on every corner as it is when we count private security cameras but footage is only useful after the fact, before the fact you rely on tip offs and good old fashioned investigative police work to follow up those tips.

Finally, attacks like 9/11 are stopped in two ways, stop acting like giant dicks. It is a well known and oft proven fact that people who like you are less likely to attack you. This also reduces the workload on number 2, identify your potential enemies and keep tabs on them. There's no point in surveilling everyone, you get so much useless information about who had what for lunch that useful clues are overlooked and lost. Re read that last sentence, it's the biggest reason the NSA hasn't and wont do any good.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[G-forze]

And what did his son do to make him earn an execution without a court sentence?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

"Schools count, but imagine going to school where the missiles can fall arbitrarily."

Surveillance counts, but imagine going to school every day when there are people who will actually kill you for doing that if you're a young woman.

If I had to pick only one of: (a) stop all [drone attacks, universal surveillance, etc.] forever, or (b) make sure that every kid in the world gets to go to school, I'd pick the latter. Because it's likely to lead to the former, as well as lots of other good things. The fact that fanatics kill children to keep them from learning suggests to me that in the long run, school is a powerful weapon against them as well as the governmental misconduct you rightly abhor.

AC cuz modded

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that's what we've done to others who've disclosed what we wanted kept secret. See Manning's treatment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Legal_proceedings) (the "Detention" section) for a recent example.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

You wrote: "Malala is hardly going to change anything in Afghanistan."

Well, given that she lived in Pakistan, perhaps not. But who knows?

At least she had the courage to go to risk death to attend school and learn geography, which it appears you have not done.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Mandella is was a terrorist that was arrested for terrorist activities. He should not even get a mention.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Uberbah]

If you bothered to read the previously linked story it shows he was directly connected to multiple plots.

If you bothered to read the story it's nothing more than a series of accusations. If we did domestically what we did overseas, you would have nodded sagely at the drone strike that took out Richard Jewell, because accusations == proof.

Al-Awlaki was quite open in his declarations.

What a pernicious hack you are. You wouldn't hesitate to argue that Israel is justified in fighting the existential threat posed by qassam rocket yet Muslims are just supposed to roll over and take it when they are bombed from the air by CIA pilots on the other side of the planet.

Aside from that, there's the slight problem of Awlaki speech calling for resistance being a Constitutionally protected right.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[countach]

I don't know that Malala knew he was going to get a head shot. But Snowden pretty much knew his fate. If the criteria is self-aware self-sacrifice, I think Snowden wins hands down. But I don't think that ought to be the criteria. Probably ought to be some of the criteria, but certainly not all. In the world scheme of things, female education in Palestine is not as significant as NSA's activities.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

You seem to have missed the point. Your rebuttal seems to have demonstrated how surveillance technologies, mostly in the hands of private entities have aided after the event. The GGP implied that government surveillance did not stop events like these. In particular, the NSA surveillance.

If that was the point, it's a stupid point. Why do we have a justice system at all then, if there's no relationship between punitive responses to crime and a decrease in the severity and/or frequency of crime? There is, in fact, a relationship: It's basic psychology that if you see someone being punished for a behavior, you're less likely to engage in that behavior yourself.

Here you've cited a lack of surveillance. When the NSA surveillance fails to foil the most poorly planned mass shooting

This is a classic example of a cognitive error. You are taking the minority of examples where [government agency] wasn't able to prevent [crime] and concluding that [government agency] is therefore incompetent, without including in your analysis all the times where [government agency] was able to prevent [crime].

There's no point in surveilling everyone, you get so much useless information about who had what for lunch that useful clues are overlooked and lost.

Sure there is. You misunderstand the relationship between signals intelligence and its relationship to the overall intelligence cycle. The value of intelligence assets is based on three factors: Accuracy, timeliness, and access. The NSA approach gets high marks in all three. However this is only one small part of the overall intelligence cycle. Nobody looks at that data without a reason; it's just data stored somewhere until someone, or something, analyzes it or related data.

Let me give you an example; Let's say that tomorrow someone blows up a restaurant that is heavily frequented by the Jewish community to make an anti-israel statement. Cell phones and driver's licenses are recovered at the scene, as well as trace files off the cell phone towers in the area. The NSA processes this information searching for phones that may be registered anonymously or have made/received phone calls from people known to have ties with anti-semetic groups. They find one call that lasted only 5 seconds was placed at the same time as the blast, and it made several phone calls to someone flagged on a watchlist. Pulling previously-gathered logs from internet routers, it is revealed that the unknown cell phone was used at an internet cafe two weeks prior to the incident at the same time that internet cafe's internet traffic shows numerous google queries for to various local electronic parts supply stores. Following up on this lead, they go out to the local parts stores and grab a grainy surveillance camera footage of someone buying components that the FBI forensic lab reports was included in the wreckage and was probably used in construction of the IED; While they paid in cash, an ANPR system a block away installed at an intersection captured a license plate that also registered a hit on the watchlist. Now they have a potential realworld identity to followup on; A matching DMV record. They then pull phone and internet records previously stored for this individual and discover that two days before the blast, they were wired several thousand dollars in various wire transfers to several newly-setup accounts overseas. After monitoring those accounts for activity, 36 hours later, someone starts making the rounds in a city 100 miles away, withdrawing $300 at a time from ATMs from those accounts. By acting quickly with local law enforcement, they are able to anticipate which ATMs that person is likely to visit next while emptying those accounts, and one of the 13 locations yields a withdrawl at the same time an officer is present. They move in, and make the arrest. Terrorist captured.

Reread that last sentence, it's the biggest reason the NSA can and has done good. That doesn't excuse b

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[kanweg]

Well, she did get shot in the head because she was vocal on the issue before. And she'll have known that her opinion would meet fierce opposition, and in a country where (mad)men are allowed to bear arms, that can get you into trouble likely.

Bert

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

And NOT getting listened in to is a human right (right of privacy). All human rights violations is, or should be, illegal.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

Justice delayed is justice denied. There's no reason why this can't be addressed at the moment either.

True, but people seem to think we need to grind everything to a halt until we can placate everyone's pet interests. Well, that's not gonna happen. So how about we start on Plan B instead: Figuring out how to fix something that is running poorly. The NSA and other law enforcement agencies around the world are using these technologies to good effect. We shouldn't throw that away because the early incarnations of the administration and use of these technologies is flawed.

you're just another one of those who believes that privacy is unimportant.

Straw man.

If you did think it was important, you wouldn't be...

Bandwagon.

(Failing that, then it's as I stated earlier: You argue just to argue.)

Ad hominid.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Vengeance may be very satisfying and help placate the angry mob, but it isn't prevention.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sFurbo]

The NSA and other law enforcement agencies around the world are using these technologies to good effect.

How do we know that? All we have is the words of people who have been found to lie about, well, everything that we can check. The reasonable assumption is that they lie about everything that we can't check, too. They could easily tell us something that can be checked, such as pointing to a foiled terrorist attack, and explaining how mass surveillance helped foil it.

We shouldn't throw that away because the early incarnations of the administration and use of these technologies is flawed.

Part of what keeps the system in check will always be rules. Rules are pointless if they are not followed. If people believe they will never be punished for breaking the rules, it will be much harder to make them follow the rules. If we don't punish people who have broken the rules we have now, how are you going to convince people that they will be punished for breaking rules in the future?

(Failing that, then it's as I stated earlier: You argue just to argue.)

Ad hominid.

Wouldn't that be a commentary on the species as a whole?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

Note that the NSA's mandate is FOREIGN signals intelligence gathering.

Still, the extent and aggressiveness was revealing even to those of us who've been putting "president, attack, airplane, bomb" into our e-mails as a joke for a decade or so.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sFurbo]

This technology does work. It is helping.

And yet, all we to show that mass surveillance of phones helps is your a hypothetical example that reads more like a CSI plot than anything that could actually work.

Everyone thinks the NSA is run by people with no morals and even less brains... but that's an absurd statement.

But it isn't an absurd statement that they could be so sheltered that their morals, while internally consistent, is far removed from what the rest of us would consider good. That they have spent so much time telling each other how important stopping terrorists are that they are convinced it trumps any privacy consideration. The semantic games they play point in that direction. Lying to Congress points in that direction.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[EuclideanSilence]

Words and ideas are the most powerful thing in the Universe, more powerful than the strongest standing army. As someone's sig here says, "the tyrant fears a laugh more than a bullet."

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. Jamex Clapper has done enough damage and Siberia would be an appropriate place for him to think about that for a few decades.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither. It is the fact that it is much more fundamental. It affects the entire world in a profound and important way. He revealed that the governments of several of the most powerful nations are silently spying on the vast majority of people on Earth and lying about it. Additionally, Snowden published a vast amount of new information: things that everybody should know, but were unknown to almost everybody not involved in the war on privacy.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? France does not have a history of extraditing people easily.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point Snowden being free is just embarrassing to the US

The most embarrassing thing for the U.S. is that "the land of the free" does all the things that Snowden revealed. Unfortunately, the Obama government does not seem to realise that.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Snowden was and continues to be at far higher risk of assassination than Malala.

I don't think that's true. At this point Snowden being free is just embarrassing to the US. He's apparently already given the press everything he knows so killing him isn't going to improve anything from the NSA's perspective.

How was torturing Manning going to improve anything? We are not talking about some humanitarian regime here.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[RivenAleem]

Really, the only difference between the 2 is preparation and caution. You'd be a bit naive to think that Edward's life was in no jeopardy as he made his revelations. Being well prepared and smarter about his revelations allowed him to avoid such a fate.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know with any certainty that Snowden's disclosures caused a fundamental shift in how people view the problems of government surveillance. If you were against it before, you still are. If you're for it, you still are. I don't see many people changing their opinions either way on the basis of what he has (or hasn't) said.

Lots of people using the words "tinfoil hats" to describe the theories of others have been forced to change their oppinions, when those people they used to call tinfoil hats were suddenly saying "oh my, it's even worse than I feared".

And that's just people on Slashdot.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[AmiMoJo]

In all your examples of surveillance helping it did so after people had already been murdered. You don't show any evidence that the criminals would not have been caught anyway, and in fact in all but the Boston case they died in the attacks.

We gave up privacy and accepted the police putting entire cities on lockdown for this. Not to prevent multiple murders, just to catch the people who did them a bit faster (maybe) or to get some exciting footage on CNN that evening.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

At least the attackers weren't proud to boast "one shot two kills"

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you rather small groups of people randomly taking action on suspicions and assumptions all of the time?

I would rather see a large group of people take action. Suspicion and assumptions occur when the government withholds information form the people.
If withholding information from the people have a tendency to lead to riots then there is a reason for the government to encourage more transparency.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

The punishment in Pakistan is being dumped on a whole class of people, not just one girl.

But the discussion is not about somebody doing anything to stop it being dumped on a whole class of people. It's about giving it that "just one girl".

If we were discussing whether to give the award to her (just one out of the pakistani female population) or me (just one out of the "not citizens of the USA" population), yes, she would win. But it's not. It's about whether giving it to her, or the guy who helped the entire world gaining knowledge of what's going on.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Zero__Kelvin]

Education can and has taught me all of that. Luckily I was born with the ability to understand English and read as well as apply logic, so I know that there was no "Godwining" in my post. Godwin's Law says that a conversation having nothing to do with Nazi analogies or Hitler's approaches will eventually, given long enough, turn in that direction. In a conversation where it is no leap to make the analogy an actual appropriate reference to it is not in conformance to it.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sjames]

And required restitution and rehabilitation are not worthwhile?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[JigJag]

Really, get a clue dude, or at the very least stop arguing just for the sake of arguing

[offtopic but funny nonetheless] did you notice the nick of who you are responding to?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, get a clue dude, or at the very least stop arguing just for the sake of arguing

[offtopic but funny nonetheless] did you notice the nick of who you are responding to?

girlintraining is still a dude until he graduates from his training.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it with you guys' inability to understand fifth grade English? "Countries" is the plural of "country"; it isn't a posessive. The posessive of country is country's. Sheesh, so many uneducated at slashdot lately, it's sad.

You have to be IN the government to bring charges agaisnt someone.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

But it isn't an absurd statement that they could be so sheltered that their morals, while internally consistent, is far removed from what the rest of us would consider good. That they have spent so much time telling each other how important stopping terrorists are that they are convinced it trumps any privacy consideration. The semantic games they play point in that direction. Lying to Congress points in that direction.

That's still a pretty absurd statement. You're only looking at the very top of the hierarchy where the decision-makers and faces of the organization only dictate the very generalized direction the organization will move toward. The people who actually do the flagging, the tracking, the researching, the communicating, and generally everything that actually goes into the privacy-invading parts of the investigation run the entire gamut of personalities from meek to psychopath, and that's not even going into the contractors that aren't even directly employed by the NSA. The only common factor that you can generally count on is that they don't have criminal records, and they were hired for their abilities and generally averaged competence.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Nephandus]

How did THIS get modded troll exactly? It's less incendiary than my last libtardbait that predictably got twice modded troll too. Neither are what "troll" means since both have a point. THIS ironically one shouldn't even qualify as flamebait.

Re: Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself...

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[RoTNCoRE]

You ignore the US citizenship holding kids killed while they went after Anwar. They hadn't taken up arms, but had theirs scattered across the landscape.

Re: Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that most people, or most people born after 1988?

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[fredprado]

Slave accordingly to who? Those who teach you whatever "they" think is right? Education is something that can be acquired individually,I would even say that it is better acquired individually than academically.

You vastly overestimate the value of education in relation to freedom. It was far better to be an illiterate immigrant in the 19th century in US than it is to be a literate "citizen" in North Korea or Cuba today.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[anagama]

What an idiot. How about the fact that I pointed out in my post, that he has exposed a crime on humanity affecting the entire planet. Are you too daft to see that scale matters? You know, the person who randomly plugs strangers' parking meters is doing a good thing, but it doesn't warrant a Nobel peace prize.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Standing up to religious extremism, being shot and left for dead = "suffering at the hands of tyrants"

Standing up to your government which is spying on your population and the rest of the world and having to flee your country = ?

I would say "suffering at the hands of tyrants" fits that as well.

Neither are accurate.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

No, clever is when you don't have to explain it to the idiots.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Nemesisghost]

I just have a couple of questions for you. Where do you buy your tin foil? Do they fold it into hats for you or do you have to do that yourself? Is there a specific way that your hats are folded? I just want to make sure that you are well protected from the ebil gubment.

Do you really think that after Snowden exposed himself that there was any way any 3 letter agency could "off him" without major reprisal? The second he goes missing the US is in deep shit. We'd lose all credibility to condemn Russia, China & the Middle East for doing the same thing. Iran would have a field day if he was killed & then we tried to get them to release any political dissenters. Hell, they already are. Despite a bunch of tin foil hat wearers & fascist idiots, Snowden's life stopped being at risk the second he stepped out from behind the curtain.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[mcgrew]

That would be me. Fittingly, the story is a humorous fantasy about corrupt cops and a corrupt mayor and an intelligent whirlwind.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[girlintraining]

And yet, all we to show that mass surveillance of phones helps is your a hypothetical example that reads more like a CSI plot than anything that could actually work.

A CSI episode would have more catchy one-liners, and computers beeping while images flashed by in rapid succession instead of "LOADING... PLEASE WAIT". There would also be a snappy soundtrack and people yelling "Enhance!" at grainy surveillance footage, turning pixelated blob-people into pictures so sharp you can count the nose hairs on them.

What it wouldn't feature is weeks of intensive detective work stretching across a half-dozen law enforcement agencies and thousands of man-hours spent sifting through potentially relevant surveillance footage to drum up a few promising leads while the tip line rings off the hook with people calling in to report their neighbors who they know have nothing to do with the current crisis, but are really hoping the police come out and fuck with them because, you know, his dog shit on my lawn one too many times and now it's go time, bitches.

But it isn't an absurd statement that they could be so sheltered that their morals, while internally consistent, is far removed from what the rest of us would consider good.

This just in: People in radically different situations from each other may think different from each other. For example, the rich and wealthy people of Congress may not see much of a problem with shutting down food assistance programs that serve infants and single mothers, since it doesn't affect them or anyone they know.

That doesn't mean that they're going to suddenly turn into sociopaths. See, this is where people like you get it so very, very wrong: You see something that doesn't make sense in your worldview and assume this means they're mentally ill, immoral, or otherwise anti-social. People's morality largely derives from their circumstances -- but they still remain social. They make decisions based on what would help them (and by extension, those like them); This does not make them evil or immoral. You can argue it does make them self-centered egoists with some success, but you can't just call someone stupid, immoral, etc., simply because their lives aren't being lived in the same context as yours.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sydneyfong]

Note that the NSA's mandate is FOREIGN signals intelligence gathering. If the NSA listens in on every phone call in the world not involving a US citizen, then its actions are no more a "world-wide illegal conspiracy" than me asking my wife what's for dinner.

This ignorance is the classic US-centric idiot worldview. When somebody in say Europe or Asia first heard about the leaks, do you think they'd be worried about those poor American citizens across the pond, or would they be more like "WTF the USA government is hacking us?!?!"

Keep in mind this is the the US government that has been publicly and loudly claiming rival countries are hacking their systems, trying to treat "cyberwar" as a real war, condemning military hacking activities, while in fact they run the biggest hacking and espionage business. That's American integrity for you.

Seriously, people outside the US don't give a shit what your congress has authorized your three letter agencies to do. It may be legal in the US because there's a US law allowing that to happen, but last I checked US law doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[ToddInSF]

I'd give you points if I had any.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[CrimsonAvenger]

This ignorance is the classic US-centric idiot worldview. When somebody in say Europe or Asia first heard about the leaks, do you think they'd be worried about those poor American citizens across the pond, or would they be more like "WTF the USA government is hacking us?!?!"

So, what crime, exactly, is the NSA committing by "hacking you"?

Or are you seriously suggesting that the NSA is bound by your laws? If so, I assume that YOUR espionage is bound by OUR laws, and that it should stop immediately!

Now, you want to stop the NSA from spying on you? Go for it! I believe the technical phrase is "national technical means" (which means "if you can do it, go right ahead. It's not like we can stop you").

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[CrimsonAvenger]

Just noticed that the NSA had to furlough ~70% of its personnel (according to Clapper), so if you disapprove of the NSA spying on you, throw your support behind keeping that shutdown going!

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[sydneyfong]

So, what crime, exactly, is the NSA committing by "hacking you"?

Not really. International "crime" is basically restricted to punishing war crimes for the side who lost the war. As a legal positivist, I concede this point for now.

Or are you seriously suggesting that the NSA is bound by your laws?

No, I'm not that arrogant. But maybe your laws? http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2013/03/19/cyberwar-manual-lays-down-rules-for-online-attacks

Now, you want to stop the NSA from spying on you? Go for it! I believe the technical phrase is "national technical means" (which means "if you can do it, go right ahead. It's not like we can stop you").

I agree. Basically you're asking whether I'm prepared to face the might of the US military (or at least call my country to do so). No thanks, I'm a coward. So that's why I'm just bitching on the Internet instead of trying to do anything about it.

I wouldn't want to take a bullet to the head like Malala just to have privacy. That's why I don't get nominated for human rights awards.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

What is it with you guys' inability to understand fifth grade English?

The day you write better german than I write english is the day you may complain.

Re: Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you not check your wallet after being bumped by a stranger, to make sure it's still there?

Don't thieves bump you so that you'll involuntarily show them where your wallet is?

Re: Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

9/11An unprecidented terrorist attack caught on film by dozens of eyewitnesses is a strong barrier against accusations that the government planned it, that the airplanes were loaded with explosives...

I remember the film caught on footage shown in the days immediately following the twin towers incident - clearly showing an aircraft with under-wing-mounted rocket launchers,firing them into the tower immediately prior to impact.

Re: Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

You're probably right which is why those individuals shouldn't be purporting to represent the will of the people in general.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Xest]

"No, but it takes a lot more guts to stand up to armed gunmen for what you believe in than run away where they can't get you."

Erm, you know after she was shot she was transported to the UK for surgery and has been making her case entirely from the West right?

She hasn't been back to Pakistan since she was shot so she's arguably under less threat from the Taliban than Snowden is from the CIA, et. al. because the Taliban have zero resources to touch her with in the West, but the CIA could very much harm Snowden in Russia, and that's before you consider he's only allowed to stay in Russia year right now and only protected there whilst the Russians find him useful.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Xest]

But even many extremists have disowned the Taliban in question over Malala because they recognise shooting young girls isn't going to win them any causes.

Really it's only a particularly extreme grouping of the Taliban in tribal Pakistan that are pissy with Malala and they have zero reach outside of Pakistan.

I believe she's mostly resident in the UK, the extremists in the UK even aren't going to target young girls, and the handful of extremists that will, in Pakistan, have fuck all chance of getting to her.

The only time she's ever going to be under genuine threat is if she returns to Pakistan, or goes to one of the few states that have equally extreme extremists (i.e. Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq).

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Nemesisghost]

the Taliban have zero resources to touch her with in the West

OK, I chuckled a bit when I read that. I guess you forgot about 9/11, the subway bombings in London, Hotel bombings in Mumbia, or the random idiots that do things like the Boston Marathon Bombing. Is she safer now? Yes, much more so. But don't think that she is any safer than Snowden.

I also guess that you forgot why she was targeted. It wasn't just because she was going to school. If that was the case, they would have just shot up the bus/van she was on & killed all of the girls with her. She was targeted because she spoke out about her desire for education & have her fellow young women have the same opportunities.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Deluvianvortex]

But its only acquired individually when a society thinks it should be allowed to be (aka free, a right, etc). You just proved my point. Thank you.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Anonymous Coward]

German, capital 'G', and English, capital 'E'. "German" spelled better than your "english". The complaint is valid.

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Xest]

"OK, I chuckled a bit when I read that. I guess you forgot about 9/11, the subway bombings in London, Hotel bombings in Mumbia, or the random idiots that do things like the Boston Marathon Bombing."

I guess you don't even know what the Taliban is.

Hint: The Taliban did none of those things.

"I also guess that you forgot why she was targeted. It wasn't just because she was going to school. If that was the case, they would have just shot up the bus/van she was on & killed all of the girls with her."

That's what the Taliban do, or throw acid in their faces. Though your ethnocentric world view apparently prevents you realising this isn't America and you don't have big yellow school buses for every student and many just walk to school with friends, but individual groups are usually attacked before the attackers flee. Two other girls were shot and wounded alongside Malala, which shows how stupid your comment is.

See here for other such attacks on schoolgirls in Pakistan/Afghanistan:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/23/world/asia/afghanistan-girls-poisoned/index.html

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/international/26-Jun-2013/a-fragile-peace-with-taliban-if-school-attacks-escalate

(Specifically, I quote: "But what kind of justification can possibly be offered for the firebombing of a college bus carrying forty girls from their Quetta campus? Fourteen defenseless girls died in the bombing; eight more people died when the terrorists ambushed the hospital.")

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/03/world/asia/pakistan-acid-attack/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/02/world/meast/cnnheroes-jan-afghan-school/index.html

Re:Comparative sacrifice

[Tom]

You are a troll, you know it, and it makes you deeply unhappy, but you don't know what else to do with your sorry life. I do with mine, so goodbye, I'd be lying if I said I pity you, because I don't pity pathetic people.

ITS A TRAP!!!!

[cod3r_]

Tell Snowden.. it's a freaking trap. CIA/NSA are going to get him on every awards program they can and when he shows up to accept they are going to snipe him down. I seen something like this on showtime.

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell Snowden.. it's a freaking trap. CIA/NSA are going to get him on every awards program they can and when he shows up to accept they are going to snipe him down. I seen something like this on showtime.

And make a martyr out of him why?

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[Gavagai80]

Who cares if he's a martyr to some? There's no revolution coming out of it. What matters to the government is that his imprisonment shows future NSA contractors that they can't get away with leaking.

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares if he's a martyr to some? There's no revolution coming out of it. What matters to the government is that his imprisonment shows future NSA contractors that they can't get away with leaking.

At some point there is a line where the general public will take back the reigns of government.

Public assignation at a human right award ceremony is if not across it considerably closer than anything the US has yet dared try.

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

What matters to the government is that his imprisonment shows future NSA contractors that they can't get away with leaking.

What shows to future NSA contractors is that they can leak now even easier than before.

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[slash.jit]

Yeah.. he can't hide from Jack Bauer.

Re:ITS A TRAP!!!!

[sydneyfong]

Public assignation at a human right award ceremony is if not across it considerably closer than anything the US has yet dared try.

No. His plane will just inexplicably crash. Or involved in some traffic accident.

Be imaginative.

you should get

[X0563511]

a bullet in the kneecap

Some sense in the world

[chr1st1anSoldier]

Glad to see some sense in the world and this gentleman get some positive recognition for what he has done.

Re: ...lol

[Anonymous Coward]

The girl from Pakistan, unlike Snowden, has received zero money for her deeds.

As it is said...

[djupedal]

Awards are for those that need them.

Pissing off the US Govt. may mean that Snowden is happy with that and anything else is just gravy. . .

Re:As it is said...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it *will* make it harder for the US to insist that he is a criminal and traitor rather than a leaker and human rights advocates. If the US manages to extradite, try, and give life imprisonment to the winner of the Sakharov and Nobel Peace Prizes, they pretty much destroy any credibility they have left when it comes to pointing out how other countries deal with their own political dissidents.

Re:As it is said...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Awards are for those that need them.

Pissing off the US Govt. may mean that Snowden is happy with that

Yes, that was clearly Snowden's goal. Social change, government by consent, he didn't even think about that hippy-dippy stuff.

No award is going to protect that girl from more attacks by the Taliban. They don't give a damn about what the west thinks about her, if anything they'll see it as a challenge - once again the west trying to attack their religion. But if the award goes to Snowden it makes it that much harder for the US to put him in prison.

If the US tried to put Mandela in prison for being a terrorist, the way SA did before he received the award, the political blow-back would be enormous.

Re:As it is said...

[cold fjord]

An award will make no difference whatsoever in prosecuting Snowden. The fact that the European Left considers him a hero is no more of a consideration in the US criminal justice system than the Soviet awards given to Kim Philby would have been to the United Kingdom. Oddly enough, both ended up in Russia.

Re:As it is said...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

An award will make no difference whatsoever in prosecuting Snowden

So your position is that the award is of no value to any of the recipients. Thanks for sharing.

Re:As it is said...

[cold fjord]

An award will make no difference whatsoever in prosecuting Snowden

So your position is that the award is of no value to any of the recipients. Thanks for sharing.

As you can see, I stated SNOWDEN. Thanks for sharing.

Re:As it is said...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So what? You didn't dispute the basis of my post, are you doing so now? Under what rationale? Or was it really just another way for your to be snippy about some group you don't like?

Re:As it is said...

[cold fjord]

I have no interest in debating the position of every past, present, or future recipient of the award. The position of Snowden in regard to the criminal justice system of the US is pretty clear. I'm amused that you would even think of accusing me of being "snippy."

Re:As it is said...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

have no interest in debating the position of every past, present, or future recipient of the award

So why did you even respond a second time? Denying the applicability to the other nominees sure sounds like debate.

Re:As it is said...

[cold fjord]

I replied to correct your error. I was quite specific in my response and you inappropriately tried to turn that into a generalization.

Re:As it is said...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I replied to correct your error. I was quite specific in my response and you inappropriately tried to turn that into a generalization.

Yep, I tried to draw meaning from your snippy retort. Guess there wasn't any there to begin with.

Re:As it is said...

[cold fjord]

My comment was straight forward with no real ambiguity. You tried to turn it into a generalization to distort it, and now you are quibbling about it. If you don't want to take responsibility for that, then I guess that's fine.

Re:As it is said...

[Jherek Carnelian]

Only a pathological authoritarian would equate Philby with Snowden. And only a licker of jackboots would equate "soviet awards" with the Sakharov Prize. That's more than just snippy, that's outright boorishness.

Re:he should get

[Thry]

You know how you look down on those foreign types being all clueless and blindly believing in their corrupt governments and dear leaders? Well everyone's looking down on you for the same reasons :)

Re:Two-faced euro dirtbags

[Anonymous Coward]

You say fear of The Bully(TM) and still dare to do something to slap it in the face?

Re:he should get

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what ya get for bein' the messenger.

Both

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that both Malala and Edward deserve the award. Their actions have triggered significant positive change and they both knew that they were taking significant risks by doing what they did.

Snowden was already making more money

[pupsocket]

and could be hauling in a whole lot more.

The NSA should award Snowden a prize

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes really. They should thank him!

Before Snowden, they were probably worrying on how they can explain away the fact that routinely violate the constitution and perjure themselves in front of the American public.

After Snowden they now have the proof points that that it is totally OK to continue to break the law and lie to anyone.

Re:...lol

[Livius]

She didn't really do much for human rights within the European Union. Snowden did.

Martyr is not preferable but it happens

[themushroom]

I see what you are saying, however there is a difference between dying for a cause and dying because of a cause.

Had the Taliban successfully snuffed her, she'd already be a martyr -- and a reinforcement why the Taliban must be stopped. Malala gets recognised for standing up for her rights, whether she got capped or not... the fact that she took one to the lobe made her voice louder, and the fact that she lived means she will not soon be forgotten like most martyrs because she can still speak.

Re:Martyr is not preferable but it happens

[girlintraining]

Had the Taliban successfully

You missed my point. When we're discussing a human rights award, it should be on the merits of the actions they took, not the consequences they suffered. It doesn't matter whether she took one bullet, or five hundred, or none at all, or whether she lived, or died. She stood up against an injustice and that is what is being rewarded... not that she couldn't get out of the way fast enough, or they were better armed, etc.

To say that taking a bullet somehow makes your action more noble than the guy sitting next to you doing the same thing, but not getting hit by the bullet, is a slap in the face to both people with fast reflexes, and every soldier who watched their buddy get turned into hamburger and thought: "Holy shit, that could have been me." The guy that got hamburgered signed up for the same thing as the guys that made it back. They had the same job. The same training. That's what makes is so damned hard to live with -- survivors guilt. There isn't a reason why it should have been him instead of you. Maybe some physics about artillery shells or some other abstract thing of no comfort... but the fact is, there wasn't a deliberate choice. Sometimes bad shit just happens to people. Getting fucked over doesn't earn you an award: Taking the risk of losing everything for a chance at doing good does.

Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[jcr]

Maybe that way the Nobel prize committee could undo some of the damage to the prize's reputation that they caused by giving it to shitheads like Arafat and Obama.

-jcr

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Being a shithead does not and should not preclude you from getting the Peace Prize. Arafat arguably deserved to share it with Perez and Rabin for trying to work towards peace in the Middle East, putting aside politics, some of their own previously held beliefs as well as the express wishes of large parts of their constituents (who would prefer to rain fiery death upon the enemy). Even if nothing came of this in the end, this did merit a nomination and (I think) winning the Prize as well.

In contrast, Obama had done fuck all before receiving the Prize. His most relevant achievement at the time was to be Not Dubya. He also managed to be the first black president of the US, which is noteworthy but in itself hardly something to award a Peace Prize for

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[TapeCutter]

Damage to what reputation? - The peace prize has always been a political statement, need I remind you that Kissenger is on the list of recipients. Unlike the scientific prizes, peace prizes are more typically awarded for words than deeds.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[wiredlogic]

Arafat arguably deserved to share it with Perez and Rabin for trying to work towards peace in the Middle East

Considering that Arafat walked away from a deal with Rabin that met all of the PLO's demands I think he was really more concerned about maintaining a legacy as a freedom fighter rather than face the possibility of actually advancing that goal and becoming a lackuster first president of Palestine.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Uberbah]

Considering that Arafat walked away from a deal with Rabin that met all of the PLO's demands I think he was really more concerned about maintaining a legacy as a freedom fighter rather than face the possibility of actually advancing that goal and becoming a lackuster first president of Palestine.

Consider that's Zionist revisionist history. Arafat was willing to make huge concessions to Israel, letting them keep a great deal of land illegally sized in the 1967 war. Israel kept moving the goalposts on the peace deal until it fell apart.

Because Israel doesn't want peace, it wants land and complete military dominance in the region. It's why Bibi is running around right now threatening Iran for having the nuclear weapons program his own minister of defense says Iran doesn't have.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[jcr]

Because Israel doesn't want peace, ...and that's why they signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, right?

Blow it out your ass, Adolph.

-jcr

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that way the Nobel prize committee could undo some of the damage to the prize's reputation that they caused by giving it to shitheads like Arafat and Obama.

-jcr

If I were Snowden, I would accept the prize only and only in condition Obama's prize was revoked.

And if that would happen, then once money was handed over I would donate it to ACLU.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[GauteL]

For what it is worth, the grandparent probably went too far. But it seems pretty clear Israel don't want any peace with the Palestinians. If they really wanted peace, they wouldn't continuously make that peace harder and harder to achieve, by creating settlements further and further into the occupied territories. They know they are winning and are showing no sign of wanting to stop.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Uberbah]

Because Israel doesn't want peace, ...and that's why they signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, right?

With the people living on the land that Israel conquered in their illegal war of aggression, dumbass. Try to keep up.

Blow it out your ass, Adolph.

Because having your land and possessions and lives stolen from you 70 years ago entitles you to do the same to others for 70 years. Say hi to Pope Paul IV, Bull Connor, and Francisco Pizarro on your way into hell, you racist Zionist shitbag, you.

Re:Snowden should get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Uberbah]

For what it is worth, the grandparent probably went too far.

Not even. 1967 was a war started by Israel with a sneak attack on Egypt's air force. 100% of the territory they gained in that war, most of all the West Bank, is illegal under international law and belongs to the Palestinians. Forcible removal of all settlements and settlers is a generous gesture when the leaders of Israel should be in the Hague for war crimes and ethnic cleansing.

Choices

[drgould]

If I were Snowden, I think I'd prefer to have a guarantee of sanctuary somewhere in Europe than a piece of paper.

But that's just me.

The politics of self worth may decide it

[Alain Williams]

The Sakharov prize is awarded (as far as I can see) by the European Parliament, a body that, in the UK at least, is seen as far away and irrelevant -- where it does decide things its decisions are seen as barmy. It seems to not have been doing much in standing up to the USA to protect European rights. The members of the parliament might see this as a chance to be seen to be an effective and robust body; but I suspect that they will be supine as usual.

I expect that the USA is using whatever influence it has with MEPs to prevent what would be an enormous embarassment.

Asylum?

[JimTheta]

Boy, that will really send a message to the US.

You know what else would send a message? Asylum.

But if no one's feeling that bold, I'm sure the award will really pick Eddie's spirits up during the Russian winter.

Re:Asylum?

[Livius]

You know what else would send a message?

An EU member giving Snowden asylum and the CIA *still* finding a way to put him in Guantanamo or some other concentration camp. That's the reason it's better for Snowden not to even be offered asylum by any country too close to the Americans.

Re:this guy is a creep

[Anonymous Coward]

You know your not going to receive a pay check today for that NSA troll post. Go home.

Both?

[Phoenix666]

People have shared the Nobel Peace Prize and such before, why not award the prize to both Snowden and Malala this year? What they each did took a tremendous amount of courage and has made a powerful statement for human rights everywhere. And when I think about it, pissing off the Taliban the next village is a very scary and brave thing to do, but then so is pissing off the most powerful government on the planet which commands unlimited numbers of scary commandos, assassins, and gunmen who can kill you no matter where you go. They're both epic, epic heros for what they've done.

Re:Both?

[grumpyman]

I agree - education and privacy. Very fundamental rights. And they're apples to oranges. Not sure how they choose...

There's three nominees

[Alsee]

Edward Snowden, the fugitive American former intelligence worker, has made the shortlist of three for the Sakharov prize, Europe's top human rights award. Mr Snowden was nominated by Green politicians in the European Parliament for leaking details of U.S. surveillance. Nominees also include Malala Yousafzai, the Pakistani teenager shot in the head for demanding education for girls.

I will tell you, it is three nominees. Snowden, Malala, and the - what's the third one there? Let's see. OK. Snowden, Malala , and...
The third nominee, Snowden, Malala, and, let's see. I can't. The third one, I can't. Sorry.
Oops.

But whoever it is ain't winning, because whatever they did was like totally lame compared to Snowden exposing U.S. government spying and Malala getting shot in the head for wanting girls for go to school.

-

Re:There's three nominees

[the eric conspiracy]

It's three Belarusian political prisoners.

Belarus is a European country that has a really nasty government that has basically continued in the Soviet era style despite the fall of the Soviet Union. Some call it the last dictatorship in Europe.

The Belarusians are already up for the Nobel Peace Prize and have won the Vaclav Havel Human Rights Award.

Re:There's three nominees

[Xest]

Sure but I think their cause is a bit pathetic compared to Malala and Snowden's.

The problem is that they're simply seeking better conditions for themselves, and those in their country who agree with them. Snowden and Malala's causes have a much wider, more selfless impact.

You have to ask what's special about a bunch of Belarussian political prisoners compared to say Iranian, Syrian, or any other political prisoners across the globe doing the same thing they are other than the fact Belarus is in Europe.

Re:controlled and targetted?

[Anonymous Coward]

PRISM, purposefully weakening encryption, putting backdoors in products sold domestically, etc. seems to cover their actions against US citizens.

The damage that Mr. Snowden has done to the American intelligence community is incalculable and WILL cost lives going forward.

Bullshit. That was claimed about Manning's leak. But then it was acknowledged that no one had any actual evidence that anyone was actually harmed by it.

The sentencing hearing began with testimony from retired Brigadier General Robert Carr, who in 2010 led an emergency Pentagon review into the impact of leaked war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Although the mass leak "hit us in the face" the review did not find any evidence that civilians named in the secret files had then been targeted by militants, Gen Carr said.

but I'm having a hard time seeing how leaking information about NSA's operations against China (just to pick one, there are others...) is anything but providing aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

Bullshit. Even James Clapper says otherwise:

As loath as I am to give any credit for what has happened here, which is egregious, some of the conversations that it has generated, some of the debate, is probably needed. So if there's a good side to this, maybe that's it.
Transparency of course is a double-edged sword. It's great for us, great for our citizens. But of course the adversary goes to school on that transparency too. But I'm convinced we have to err on the side of more transparency because, most importantly, we won't have any of this if we don't have the trust and confidence of citizens and their elected representatives.

And other quotes:

Nigel Inkster, former deputy chief of British intelligence service MI6, suggests of the leaks that they were “very embarrassing, uncomfortable, and unfortunate” but that while embarrassing the impact may not have been particularly great as “I sense that those most interested in the activities of the NSA and GCHQ have not been told very much they didn't know already or could have inferred.” He also suggests that Germany and other US allies have not been as outraged as they have seemed “The tears that have been shed internationally have been of the crocodile variety” so there is unlikely to be any reduction in ties between their intelligence agencies.

Stop believing the fear mongering nonsense told to you by people who only stand to gain power, favor and/or financial rewards by furthering these surveillance dragnets.

Summary of posts here.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the average:

"If that guy exposed the USA was doing wrong things, then I'm against him. I support my country even when it's evil, for I'm a truly patriot."

Whenever you wonder why you have to say abroad you're Canadian, please reread all these comments until you understand that no authority deserves unconditional support; not the President and absolutely not the country, too.

Being patriot is improving your country and correcting misdeeds, not sitting and waving a stupid piece of paper printed with a flag.

Fight the enemy, if you must, but first of all don't allow your "compatriots" to fsck your homeland. Right now, the best US patriot I've heard about lately is in Russia being protected by Putin (just the irony should be enough shame on you).

And the hyenas (or paid employees, I don't know) keep laughing at him. Yeah, go on, great country...

Props to the Green Party

[DrEasy]

There's been a political vacuum when it comes to defending Snowden and more generally people's right to privacy. Good for Green politicians for showing their concern! There are many more orphan causes in search for a party to pick them up: copyright and patent law reform, standing up to lobbies, etc. They'd get my vote.

Re:Props to the Green Party

[Anonymous Coward]

The Green group in the European parliament has already mostly adopted the Swedish Pirate Party's stance on copyright.

PRICELESS

[kill_-9]

Fighting for the rights for women to get education is a very noble act by Malala (and she very nearly paid a heavy price for it with her life), but Snowden revealing the NSA spying AND pissing off the most powerful and most arrogant nation in the world?...PRICELESS...oooh, I'm getting a tingling feeling all over.

Re:PRICELESS

[Anonymous Coward]

I get a kick out of USA being pissed off just the same as Uzbekistan or New Zealand.

Don't think you live in the thoughts of everyone, because you're just another nation and English is not as cute as French or Japanese. And England's music is better (or at least as good as yours... not that I like England, too). For all the facepalm you cause, we still have better things to do than to taunt you over there. Go shoot some cacti and cool off.

Re: he should get

[Anonymous Coward]

No, YOU should get a bullet in the ass, an ExtremeShock round type.

Human Rights award

[Anonymous Coward]

Snowden exposed a world wide spying network, industrial espionage (see theft of data and designs using nsa garnered information and access) and is now inspiring a world wide change in how view security and how common data can be used on mass gather information. He has been branded traitor and now will life the rest of his life in fear.

Malala Yousafzai fought for human rights Quote: "I am Malala" and demanding that all children worldwide be in school by the end of 2015, she was assassinated for her beliefs If she wasn't killed you would have never heard of her.

Re:Human Rights award

[0a100b]

If she wasn't killed you would have never heard of her.

Reality proves you wrong.

Aung San Suu Kyi

[Anonymous Coward]

Aung San Suu Kyi receiving an award for human rights is as much as a joke as Obama receiving the Nobel prize. She has done nothing to alleviate the genocide happening in Myanmar, and in fact simply supports the government efforts.

Re:Words mean things

[Bite The Pillow]

Your post makes an assumption, and follows to conclusion based on that assumption. The website says:

"The Sakharov Prize is intended to honour exceptional individuals who combat intolerance, fanaticism and oppression. Like Andrei Sakharov himself, all the winners of the prize have shown how much courage it takes to defend human rights and freedom of expression."

As far as I can tell, Malala wrote for BBC as a 12 year old and had a documentary about her by the New York Times, which isn't much of a fight against oppression. She began giving interviews and became a spokesperson, and got shot. Most of the actual work since then was by other people on her behalf, until a UN speech in July. Not sure that really fits the bill.

Snowden claims he intentionally got a job where he could get secrets, actively violated the law and abused his privilege, left a job in Hawaii and pole-dancing girlfriend, and is now fleeing the very government that, as he damned well knows, has the ability to find him anywhere. He certainly is no free man at this point, and knew what he was getting into. That took far more courage than surviving a shooting.

Malala's father showed courage, based on the few interviews and articles I read, and would be my vote before Malala.

Not trying to diminish her message, but the award is rather specific about its purpose, and it's not about awareness or motivating change. It is about honoring/rewarding the people who motivate and effect change.

Yea!

[Anonymous Coward]

This alone tell just how futile Barak Obama's life is and without worth.

Up u'r Ass Obama! :D

Re:Words mean things

[Anonymous Coward]

Not taking a position on which nominee is more deserving of the award, but...

I think you may underestimate the courage Malala showed in simply continuing to attend school. Think of an important activity you routinely do, then imagine that a portion of the society in which you live so disapproves of your activity that they're quite willing to kill you for it. And imagine that you're 14 years old.

I think both Malala and Snowden showed courage as well as affecting our world more than one might predict of an average person. Also, it's far too soon to weigh the contributions of either. Give it a couple or three decades, then revisit the question.

Remember the rest of the world please

[tomxor]

[...]If you did think it was important, you wouldn't be trivializing it in the face of an issue that has little to no bearing on American citizens. (Failing that, then it's as I stated earlier: You argue just to argue.)

Part of the reason the leaks have caused so much concern, is due to the NSA's activities extending far beyond the borders of America. However poverty is defined and whether or not it is an issue in America, it's likely to be an issue in other parts of the world that the NSA's influence extended to.

I'm not siding with girlintraining's opinion, because I happen to think that a single very powerful entity with massive global surveillance operations and potential influence over the world's information is a very dangerous idea that could gravely impact the future of everyone in the world. However I would hope that others would also consider the morality and implications of the NSA's operations beyond their back yard, the location of your countries borders shouldn't have any bearing on the way you value one abstract social ethic against another... Especially since we are talking about the internet and the NSA here.

If it were an EU country he exposed

[gelfling]

He'd be locked away w/o trial in Europe per their own freedom and peace loving laws. Just so we're clear about that.

Re:If it were an EU country he exposed

[Xest]

Well he has exposed a number of EU countries given that the UK and France are in the EU.

Re:If it were an EU country he exposed

[gelfling]

And Greenwald's husband was detained per law for being in possession of 58,000 classified secret and top secret documents belonging to the UK but that too was branded an abuse of power. Oh well. I guess we need to have no government at all.

Re:If it were an EU country he exposed

[Xest]

Well it was an abuse of power. Using terrorism laws on someone quite blatantly not a terrorist is abuse of power.

Even the guy who wrote the fucking law said so.

Re:If it were an EU country he exposed

[gelfling]

Yes of course detaining someone for up to 8 or 9 hours per the law for stealing a trove of top secret documents is a war crime. Of course it is. 58,000 stolen documents

Re:If it were an EU country he exposed

[Xest]

So you're saying you don't believe in the rule of law and authorities should be able to arbitrarily interfere with people's lives?

Like it or not, the guy broke no laws. He wasn't a UK citizen party to the official secrets act. There is no UK law covering transfer of said documents through an airport. The law doesn't define what he was doing as wrong, which is why they had to abuse anti-terror legislation for a purpose it wasn't intended.

Just like when Brown seized the assets of Icelandic banks using anti-terror legislation even though they quite blatantly weren't terrorist organisations.

Re:Words mean things

[Nemesisghost]

Snowden claims he intentionally got a job where he could get secrets, actively violated the law and abused his privilege, left a job in Hawaii and pole-dancing girlfriend, and is now fleeing the very government that, as he damned well knows, has the ability to find him anywhere. He certainly is no free man at this point, and knew what he was getting into. That took far more courage than surviving a shooting.

Are you bloody kidding me?!?!? It's highly debatable if Snowden actually risked his life for what he did. Even if he did, it would be at the hands of a well organized state, so he would know the time, place and means. Malala didn't just "survive a shooting". She risked all sorts of hell. Or have you forgotten that the same people who tried to silence her are also responsible for throwing acid in these young girls faces, poisoning the water wells these schools use, and other horrid ways to terrify little girls. Malala doesn't just face death, she faces a life time of terror & fear for wanting to do nothing more than learn.

Snowden might have brought proof to what we all already knew and his actions could have a greater international impact, but Malala is fighting for what most take for granted, and in some places is guaranteed. She's fighting for the same thing that all disenfranchised have, even in the US. It starts with education, and will move on to suffrage and other civil rights. Oh, and she's doing this when most girls her age in the west are worrying about what Justin Bieber wore on his date with Selena Gomez.

Re:controlled and targetted?

[Anonymous Coward]

You might want to change your sig. It runs counter to your entire post.

Re:Words mean things

[sydneyfong]

Are you bloody kidding me?!?!?

Are you bloody kidding me?!?!?

It's highly debatable if Snowden actually risked his life for what he did. Even if he did, it would be at the hands of a well organized state, so he would know the time, place and means.

Yeah, maybe he wouldn't be assassinated, just deported back to the US for a show trial and get slammed with a 35 year sentence. So given life expectancy at around 70 years, he just risked *half* of his life.... I mean, when he gets out from a 35 year jail he'll just be in his sixties, it's not like he doesn't have many more years before him!

Or have you forgotten that the same people who tried to silence her are also responsible for throwing acid in these young girls faces, poisoning the water wells these schools use, and other horrid ways to terrify little girls.

The same people trying to silence Snowden are also known to employ tactics considered torture, like waterboarding, hypothermia, sleep deprivation, and all sorts of other horrid ways to break grown up men.

Malala doesn't just face death, she faces a life time of terror & fear for wanting to do nothing more than learn.

Snowden doesn't just face death, he faces a life time of terror and fear, being stripped of his citizenship, deprived from seeing his family, for wanting to do nothing more than exposing lies.