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U.S. Spy Panel Is Loaded With Insiders
schwit1 writes "After a public backlash to government spying, President Barack Obama called for an independent group to review the vast surveillance programs that allow the collections of phone and email records.
The members of the review group are:
Richard Clarke, the chief counterterrorism adviser on the National Security Council for Clinton who later worked for Republican President George W. Bush
Michael Morell, Obama's former deputy CIA director
Geoffrey Stone, law professor who has raised money for Obama and spearheads a committee hoping to build Obama's presidential library in Chicago
Cass Sunstein, law professor and administrator of information and regulatory affairs for Obama
Peter Swire, a former Office of Management and Budget privacy director for Clinton
'At the end of the day, a task force led by Gen. Clapper full of insiders – and not directed to look at the extensive abuse – will never get at the bottom of the unconstitutional spying,' said Mark Jaycox, a policy analyst for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group. The panel's meetings are closed after Clapper exempted it from the U.S. Federal Advisory Committee Act, which would have required it to keep the public informed and hold open meetings, for 'reasons of national security,' according to a statement from the group sent from Clapper's office. 'While we are exempt from the FACA, we are conducting this review as openly and transparently as possible.'"
Richard Clarke, the chief counterterrorism adviser on the National Security Council for Clinton who later worked for Republican President George W. Bush
Michael Morell, Obama's former deputy CIA director
Geoffrey Stone, law professor who has raised money for Obama and spearheads a committee hoping to build Obama's presidential library in Chicago
Cass Sunstein, law professor and administrator of information and regulatory affairs for Obama
Peter Swire, a former Office of Management and Budget privacy director for Clinton
'At the end of the day, a task force led by Gen. Clapper full of insiders – and not directed to look at the extensive abuse – will never get at the bottom of the unconstitutional spying,' said Mark Jaycox, a policy analyst for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group. The panel's meetings are closed after Clapper exempted it from the U.S. Federal Advisory Committee Act, which would have required it to keep the public informed and hold open meetings, for 'reasons of national security,' according to a statement from the group sent from Clapper's office. 'While we are exempt from the FACA, we are conducting this review as openly and transparently as possible.'"
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Apparently some expected something different...
BIG BROTHERS will never change it self.
Change does not come from within.
Real change must be made from the outside.
All the insiders - the careered politicians, the careered bureaucrats, the careered leeches who bled the public dry - will not change their ways.
If we are to have a REAL CHANGE we must make sure that NONE OF THEM remain inside the government.
Any less than that will be hot air, as usual.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The Volokh Conspiracy had some interesting comments in August: Geoffrey Stone Added to NSA Surveillance Review Committee
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
And these fucking idiotic liberals voted for Obummer twice. I never figured this country could actually vote in someone worse than the borderline retard known as Dubya.
Because we can trust him to get at the bottom of all this !!
Now that the government is shut down, does that mean the domestic spying program is also?
And while I'm at it, would it be unpatriotic of me to suggest that the government shutdown may be a tactful diversion from the domestic spying program? Snowden's Sunday leak was largely ignored Sunday by the major news networks in favor of the impeding shutdown.
I would rather see a panel consisting of a deaf mute, a quadriplegic, a rabbi, an ACLU lawyer, and Joe Plumber.
They would accomplish more than the panel that Obama put together.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
President Barack Obama called for an independent group to review the vast surveillance programs that allow the collections of phone and email records. The members of the review group are:
... Doesn't matter. You're asking the foxes to guard the hen house. If you work for the government, you can't really be expected to provide an impartial audit of government activities. The end. The only time Congress appoints actual outsiders is when the majority party is able to excert enough power to get them appointed. Of course, this is heavily politicalized as well -- they don't appoint people without knowing what their answer will be.
This is dinner theatre for one.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
The watchers themselves, of course. And by the fifth amendment (they like the respect amendments when it serves to their pourposes), they won't incriminate themselves, so the outcome is predictable. Seems that the "ideological crusade" is in this side too.
Okay, how will the group meet if it's furlough time?
Kriston
And you seriously think Herr Romney would have done any better or different? Plus, most of those draconian policies were put forth during the Retard Dubya's reign by his evil cronies.
Br'er Fox done got hisself on the jury to find out what's happenin' in that darn chicken coop.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
I mean they could have conducted the review without even telling the public that it was happening. If that's not openness and transparency in action I don't know what is.
It just seems that no-one in the government is at odds with the NSA spying program. The idea was always to have checks and balances in the system so that if things spiraled out of control, there would always be counter-forces that would set it right.
However, the white house, senate, supreme courts etc doesn't seem to care. They're all acting like it is no big deal and we should forget about it (or maybe that is how the media is portraying it).
Though on the other hand, this kind of social interaction data is a goldmine for sociologists and social psychologists to industrial psychologists. It could really be the killer technology that drives the next generation of marketing and advertising. Social networking is the fusion of sociology and computer science.
This is especially a goldmine if election candidates can understand and measure how people are deciding to vote. Before it was just spend billions of dollars on a blanket advertising scheme. But, what if they can really get feedback and data on how people are deciding to cast their votes.
Why doesn't the NSF find ways to anonymize the data and use it for scientific research and make everything open.
After social networking, this could be next big thing. Non-survey based measurement and quantification of what people are doing and thinking and how ideas are spreading and problems they are facing.
It's not cool, but sort of expected. In order to get enough information that can be pieced together conclusively, the members of the panel probably need the highest levels of security clearance. There probably aren't that many people who qualify for that job.
I've been told the "non-essential employees" that are affected make up 25% of the federal payroll, most publicly visible customer-service type jobs. All the bureaucrats are "essential" and won't be going anywhere.
Where you wrote "the white house" my eyes read "the white noise". Poor vision or insightful pupils?
This is such a bad joke it's not even funny.
It's time for the third American revolution.
It's the only logical conclusion these folks will come to.
Obama just want to fuck everybody and shit on the U.S.A.
When I worked in support, the management began taking a drift towards the overly authoritarian side. I don't think they wanted to face up to it though. One particularly absurd thing they did was place a suggestion box next to the desk where all the managers sat. What was wrong with that? It was transparent. Yep. Anybody who put a suggestion in there would be seen putting it in, and the fold size or color of the paper would be matched up with the face, subconsciously or otherwise.
This panel is about as useful as that suggestion box. It's transparency, authoritarian style.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Mike Morrell is a former career CIA guy. He was responsible for the daily president briefings and I believe he was the one to inform President Bush of 9/11. Very experienced and definitely spooky. His secrets have secrets! He would probably be a very awesome guy to meet. Definitely not Obama's unless you hold presidential turnover against him.
"Network penetration is network engineering, in reverse."
First "put in 3 letter abbreviation here" kinda screws everyone. The goverment investigates; Lets use some really biased people, and hope it turns out ok. Btw, the investigation is secret... so shhh! No reason to worry.
and we should be surprised why?
So you're advocating violent regime change then?
Why do I get both the urge to infinitely face-palm AND the mental image of Frau Farbissina doing her "Lies! ALL LIES!" line?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
WTF, did someone genuinely else expect anything else to happen?
What the FUCK has happened to this country?
Hey, at least neither one of them were christians.
To add anything else to the above quote will be a travesty.
So I'll say " Amen to it, brother ! "
I think a large part of the problem is the primary voting system. A would-be presidential candidate first has to appeal to the extremists in their own party before they have a chance to try to appeal to the general public.
I have a proposal to fix this.
Step 1: To be on the presidential ballot, you must have reached some threshold number of votes in the primaries. This threshold should be set so that there will be about 4 to 6 presidential candidates. (Primaries are not party-based. All presidential hopefuls appear on the one ballot.)
Step 2: Voters rank the presidential candidates in their order of preference. These preferences are processed by a Condorcet method. This ensures that if one candidate would win a two candidate election against any other candidate, they are elected.
With 4 to 6 candidates, there is room for at least two from each main party, plus the occasional independent/minor party candidate. The Condorcet voting encourages moderates rather than extremists. (In turn, this will encourage the selection of moderates in the primaries.) It also gives independents a decent chance.
(Note: I am not a US citizen, nor am I living there.)
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
If you're tired of their bullshit YOU SHOULDN'T BE VOTING FOR THEM!
Give us an option of" I AM VOTING AGAINST ALL THE SCUMBAGS " on your ballot ticket, then.
Or else, who the fuck are we supposed to vote for ?? Most of us already know that those appearing on our ballot tickets are scumbags.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
So you're advocating violent regime change then?
So you're saying violence is the only way to effect change from the outside? I don't know about that, certainly not clear to me that's what GP was getting at. Seems to me what you guys need is a third, fourth, fifth major political party with half a chance of, if not winning any election, at least offset the current status quo.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Or else, who the fuck are we supposed to vote for ?? Most of us already know that those appearing on our ballot tickets are scumbags.
Please explain why you consider either Gary Johnson or Jill Stein to be "scumbags". Both seem to me to be people of high integrity. Gary got my vote last year, and Jill got my respect. If neither of them got your vote, maybe you should consider that people like you are the root of the problem.
The winners make the rules, so any party that doesn't have a chance of winning is a waste of time and effort.
The winners make the rules, so any party that doesn't have a chance of winning is a waste of time and effort.
I disagree. Even if other parties have -- at first -- no real chance of winning, having them at all might still make clear just exactly how similar the current major parties are.
When Ds and Rs agree on something that's a sure sign it is against most peoples' interests. I think that developing a wider frame of reference would make that more obvious.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Real change must be made from the outside.
Outside of what? The government? The human race? The universe? Where is this "outside"?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I'm waiting for the GP to respond with something along the lines of "blah blah you wasted your vote blah blah you acted as a spoiler" ... and when millions of people think that way, there's no chance of any third party candidate gaining any traction. The real problem here are apathy, excuses, and herd mentality. People don't vote on issues, hell they hardly understand what issues are at stake with any particular candidate. On the whole, people tend to vote for the political equivalent of their favorite sports team. So we get what we get, which is a horrible mess.
I have no idea how to to fix this, aside from watching things get so bad that people are rioting in the streets in every major city in the nation, and subsequently saying something like "well now, now that you all seem to care about what's happening since you can no longer ignore its direct effect on a massive number of peoples' lives, your own included, how about we figure this out."
Write failed: Broken pipe
Obvious agent provocateur is obvious.
A bigger thing would be for people to start getting FOIA of politicians' communications from that lockbox for use in lawsuits trying to follow the money. All the dirty laundry and proof of utter corruption in government, whether it is RIAA or defense contractors or insider trading, all of the communications not written on cocktail napkins has been sucked up by the total information awareness. It is time we started using it to get something constructive done. Besides slapping down proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the next two useful services the NSA could provide are transparency of all communications with politicians (or at minimum, providing in response to a demand for a query on their database by an FOIA), and of course offering secure data center services including backup and VOIP, since they do that already. No hackers are going to get into your stuff if it's in Utah.
Jill Stein.
The panel's meetings are closed after Clapper exempted it from the U.S. Federal Advisory Committee Act ... for 'reasons of national security,'
Congratulations Mr Clapper, I vote for a round of applause. Why is everyone being spied on? OH! that's right:
for 'reasons of national security,'
Almost forgot for a second.
You know, the internet is about the people, not the governments. Stop complaining about the governments collecting information and start collecting information about the government. If they do it, it's got to be ok. After all, every threat to the US population for the last 50 years has been specifically caused by the government. Couldn't spying on the government be considered national security?
Those who make peaceful change impossible make violent change inevitable.
AC
If you're tired of their bullshit YOU SHOULDN'T BE VOTING FOR THEM!
Give us an option of" I AM VOTING AGAINST ALL THE SCUMBAGS " on your ballot ticket, then.
Or else, who the fuck are we supposed to vote for ?? Most of us already know that those appearing on our ballot tickets are scumbags.
Well spoil your ballot ticket and don't vote. That way you're still using your right to vote but letting them know you don't want either option.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
If they were outsiders, they'd never be cooperated with and some would merely claim they are against the USA.
As insiders, if they DO find a problem and make it plain, they can't be accused of fabricating that.
It depends on what they do.
Bend over backwards to be thorough? Good move.
Go through the motions? Bad.
Let them know.
I'm sure a great country like the USA can explode the record of Belgium to be without government.
Come on, it's only a question of time, only 539 days left.
They did it, they survived it.
Australia has something called "double dissolution" where, to fit the US system, both the Senate and Congress would be dismissed in entirety and an election for all seats would take place.
You should look into that.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
But what sort of idiot would have interpreted the President's words to mean a panel made of people from outside government, without security clearances? He clearly meant people not currently inside the programs, who are already known and trusted by the government. Like, duh.
The funny part is that people who can't even understand the basics of the conversation are trying to call it out and blather on about how much wiser and more worldly they are.
How will that be counted?
That would be the Senate and the House of Representatives. "Congress" is both houses together. It's a common mistake that even Congressmen themselves make. Senators are members of Congress, too.
We hear "Congress and the Senate" from every reporter, news anchor, news writer, commentator and man on the street. But they're all wrong.
Every cloud has a silver lining I suppose.
Change does not come from within. Real change must be made from the outside.
Correct, and here's how to do it: WOLF-PAC. Launched in October 2011 for the purpose of passing a 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that will end corporate personhood and publicly finance all elections. Since Congress won't pass such an Amendment on its own, the plan is to instead have the State Legislators propose it via an Article Five Convention. At least 34 States need to cooperate for this to work, but already many have reacted with enthusiasm, most notably Texas. If successful, the real problem should be fixed within one or two election cycles.
If you didn't think Obama was one stupid S.O.B. before, you can see he is one now or you are just a retarded toadie.
He honestly didn't think anyone would notice he stacked the "independent group" with his "yes" men.
He really thought we would buy it. He thinks we're stupid.
Well fuck that stupid nigger! We got cotton fields that need tending, give that boy something meaningful to do that is within his skill set.
Cass personifies the insanity and sheer paranoia of the modern ruling class, most typified by this recent piece:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-30/could-bowling-leagues-and-the-pta-breed-nazis-.html
He interprets all social organization of white people as ultimately leading to Nazis. Yes, bowling leagues are the predecessors of the NSDAP.
He actually advocates the government monitor these institutions.
Now we know why this surveillance system is in place.
Australia has something called "double dissolution" where, to fit the US system, both the Senate and Congress would be dismissed in entirety and an election for all seats would take place.
You should look into that.
America used to use a quaint old system. It involved tar, feathers, and being run out of town on a rail.
Maybe we should revive it.
Change does not come from within. Real change must be made from the outside.
Correct, and here's how to do it: WOLF-PAC. Launched in October 2011 for the purpose of passing a 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that will end corporate personhood and publicly finance all elections. Since Congress won't pass such an Amendment on its own, the plan is to instead have the State Legislators propose it via an Article Five Convention. At least 34 States need to cooperate for this to work, but already many have reacted with enthusiasm, most notably Texas. If successful, the real problem should be fixed within one or two election cycles.
I am quite willing to sign up for this. But not everything wrong with US government can be laid at the feet of corporations. Some corporations do benefit from the current state of affairs, it is true. And some are greatly inconvenienced. By even if you wrote corporations out of the equation entirely, the real mover here is power and the people with the power are merely getting some of their funding from corporate sources. Getting their campaigns financed by other means wouldn't change the people behind it.
I've said before that money is not speech, it's just a bigger megaphone. The last election demonstrated quite handily that even the largest war chest is no guarantee that those grimy worthless little voters won't pick someone else. So, while pulling the money plug is a worthwhile effort, don't expect it to solve all problems.
A party cannot effect change from the outside, since parties are inherently "inside."
There is only one practical, workable, currently-running project to peacefully overhaul the system from the outside. Read the brief "transition" section of this page to understand the basic idea: http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page
And then join us and help build our only practical hope for freedom from totalitarianism: http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Participate#Join_the_list_server
I see no better option anywhere in this thread (or anywhere else).
If you're tired of their bullshit YOU SHOULDN'T BE VOTING FOR THEM!
Give us an option of" I AM VOTING AGAINST ALL THE SCUMBAGS " on your ballot ticket, then.
Or else, who the fuck are we supposed to vote for ?? Most of us already know that those appearing on our ballot tickets are scumbags.
Write in someone. Write in Mickey Mouse, if you really want to get the point across. Just don't stay home and get ignored, and for FSM's sake DON'T VOTE FOR ANYONE BASED ON A SINGLE/NARROW ISSUE! We need a government that can function full-spectrum, not bicker back and forth on things that may be important to individuals but are distractions from what's important for the country.
Its sad watching this play out...
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
That's the message I try to put out as well. Too bad most people can't understand we don't actually have a "two party system".
As for myself, I voted for Jill Stein, even though I oppose most of the Green Party platform. She was willing to be arrested to uphold democracy, protesting the first debate between Romney and Obama for not including all national candidates. So even though I don't agree with the Green Party on much, some things are more important than my personal beliefs.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
The winners make the rules, so any party that doesn't have a chance of winning is a waste of time and effort.
Not in a democracy.
The majority makes the rules, and as is currently the case in Belgium, the biggest political party does not need to be part of that majority.
Consider Dems 45%, repubs, 45%, third party 10%. Any law, budget or ... can now be approved by any of the 3 combinations: Dem + rep or dem + third or rep + third. No single party can block things
If they are appointed by the government, they are insiders, plain and simple. There is no way that government can magically achieve non-bias against itself. There are elections and appointments (and other options like hereditary titles in some nations), but they are all in some way influenced by the government. An independent man, appointed to a panel by the government, is by definition no longer "independent."
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I work for the government of the USA. No truer words were ever spoken than the previous post. The only way to fix this mess is to execute the departments. This monster arose because we "fixed" Admiral Poindexters "Total Information Awareness" program. So we fixed it. It got even more intrusive and more completely out of hand and we went deeper into that abyss where freedom dies.
Just for the record. The spying extend is this far and make no excuses for it it is total.
(1) It includes 100% recording transcription and were appropriate translation of nearly every language for scanning by automated "Bots" which is done of all Phone Calls by all means. All scanned in real time.
(2) It includes 100% of all financial activities such as banking, purchaces and even down to the line items on the charges you make at the store. All Scanned and correlated by bots in real time.
(3) It includes every public records transation you make as well. All scanned and correlated by bots in real time
(4) It now includes all US and probably all foreign computer generated Medical Records all scanned and correlated by bots in real time.
The NSA has been responsible for placing Micro-Code back door technology in all the major CPU devices that operates below the bios level causing them to have access to all computers beyond password lockouts. This allows, as it becomes known and it is published now, access to all
(3) It includes all patterns of transactions you make including sending of photos, emails, SMS, and MMS. All Scanned and correlated by Bots
The NSA is responsible for generating:
(1) Micro-code access below bios level into all the major CPU chips giving them access without password to your computer and giving them the ability to impersonate you and giving this capacity to any party who knows about it as well. This is now published publically and as a result the NSA is responsible for holing the security of every computer on earth. This makes them cause and accomplace to identity theft.
(2) Micro-code access to the random number generator of your CPU giving them access to your PGP and other code in a deterministic way rendering all of your banking and other identity based transactions insecure and making the NSA the causal agent of all Identity Theft. Others are mere opportunists who happen by and use their entry "holes" or "back doors".
This makes the NSA the biggest criminal agency in the world. Make no mistake the US Constitution is very clear about the rights of people to be secure in their person place and effects. Do your effects stop being yours because they are managed or housed in other locations outside your house? Does your car become property of your employer when you park it in his parking lot? Does your money become property of the bank when you deposit it? Then throw out the legaleze bull crap and get with the understanding that the NSA is a Criminal Organization and it should be prosecuted for its crimes. It is responsible for us having no security. It forced this condition on us so it could do unlimited spying easily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Clarke
TL;DR - http://i.qkme.me/3tlhy1.jpg
.
A panel of telephone marketers would have accomplished more than that.
Incorrect.
If a third party gets a single percent of the votes and the difference between the two major parties are less than a percent then neither party can ignore the third party in the next election since their voters are enough to secure a victory.
He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In related news, after a spate of attacks, a local farm is having a meeting to investigate hen house security. So far the illustrious A.J. Fox, C.M. Fox, D.S. Fox, D.S. Fox Jr and Melvin K. Fox the third have all been selected to serve on the panel. Mr Wile E. Coyote has been asked to participate but is currently indisposed after a rocket accident.
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
Yes he is. The US believes violence or money are the only two ways to solve any problem.
They cannot use money in this instance since all the money has been funnelled to the people operating the puppet government's strings while the people were sleeping.
Another more sensible way is to create a democratic movement. I don't know, maybe occupy some public spaces to get some attention called to the problems via passive resistance.
Surely america would get behind that?
Oh wait...
WHY AM I JUST FINDING OUT ABOUT THIS NOW? oh yeah... mainstream media. FUCK YOU MAINSTREAM MEDIA.
I'm surely not advocating faggots like you
It's great that you're willing to sign the WOLF-PAC petition, because money in politics does far more damage than you may think. Sure, democracy is a messy business even in the best of times, but it's always preferable to an authoritarian regime.
Corporate influence on our politicians should always be limited to prevent corruption, but right now very little limits that influence at all. This affects both parties, because 94-95% of the time the candidate with the most money wins the election, while most have found that getting their money from a small number of big donors is much more effective than getting it from many small ones. But that kind of money always comes with strings attached, which is exactly why Congress has such a low approval rating these days: they spend virtually all their time trying to keep their donors happy -- not their actual constituents.
Don't get me wrong here: we will always need corporations, because usually they are a force for good. For most things in our lives, we depend on the goods and services they produce. But certain rules need to apply to them lest things get out of hand. After all, they should serve us and not vice versa.
Of course, that's not how the corporations see it, for in the end the only thing that motivates them is profit. That's why to some extent all of them continue to bend and break the rules (pollution, money laundering, monopolistic practices, etc. etc.) whenever they think the benefits outweigh the costs. One of the tasks of government is to keep after them and make sure those costs (e.g. fines) always outweigh the benefits, but unfortunately it seems that Congress is no longer very effective at this. In fact, all they seem to be interested in is deregulation. Gee, I wonder why...
That'd be Cass Sunstein.
Why does the tinfoil make typing and grammar so difficult?
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Jill Stein.
The problem with a mob is that they physically reflect the community they derive from.
In Washington, the folks most likely to be run out of town would be reformers and muckrakers.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
This is proof that we should have more black presidents. Anything to motivate journalists into doing their jobs.
Any panel that has Richard Clarke on it is worthy of respect.
I don't agree with he green party on much either but they seem much less likely to take rights away than the Ds or Rs so they get my vote over them. My 2012 ballot was basically all greens or libertarians with one very libertarian leaning republican whom I knew well. What is needed is for Jesse Ventura to be on someone's ticket as the VP. He would crash the VP debate much like he did in the Minnesota Governors debate and would get noticed even if the man is a self obsessed douche.
Time to offend someone
But what sort of idiot would have interpreted the President's words to mean a panel made of people from outside government, without security clearances? He clearly meant people not currently inside the programs, who are already known and trusted by the government. Like, duh.
The funny part is that people who can't even understand the basics of the conversation are trying to call it out and blather on about how much wiser and more worldly they are.
+100
Richard Clarke, the chief counterterrorism adviser on the National Security Council for Clinton who later worked for Republican President George W. Bush
Sure glad -that- was cleared up! Let me help with the rest.
Richard Clarke, the chief counterterrorism adviser on the National Security Council for Democrat Clinton who later worked for Republican President George W. Bush
Michael Morell, Democrat Obama's former deputy CIA director
Geoffrey Stone, law professor who has raised money for Democrat Obama and spearheads a committee hoping to build Democrat Obama's presidential library in Chicago
Cass Sunstein, law professor and administrator of information and regulatory affairs for Democrat Obama
Peter Swire, a former Office of Management and Budget privacy director for Democrat Clinton
You can disagree but you're wrong. When Perot made a reasonable showing in 1992, the R/D party changed the rules to virtually eliminate third parties from all future televised debates. At the national level, there is no means for someone outside the R/D power structure to get elected.
Maybe if Occupy had actually occupied PUBLIC property, they would have helped.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Lets ask a bunch of spies if spying is a good idea.
Lets ask a bunch of bankers if deregulation of the banks is a good idea.
Lets ask a bunch of automakers if removing safety testing of cars is a good idea.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
To restore freedom the national security apparatus should be dismantled. NSA, CIA, HSA, military - shut them all down.
This would be great for the economy in the long run. In the short run religious insanes might take advantage, however local or in some cases state or national police can and should handle these incidents. Crazy people who do not fear death can cause damage, however they are inherently self-limiting. Freedom is for the brave.
The savings to govenrment would allow us to fund the entire national government without income taxes. Debt payments and payback can be funded by import duties on foreign governments controlled by religions. Such duties would cut off the religious terrorists at the root and generally improve the planet.
Obama's committee will never consider this. We need a new committee to implement this plan.
Verbum caro factum est
The problem with eliminating corporations is that it also prevents entrepreneurs from opening businesses without losing their home and life savings to the first guy who "slips on the floor".
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
'Nouf said.
Wolf-pac has about 27k signatures. Check out http://www.movetoamend.org/ - they are much further along and seem to have a much more comprehensive program.
Cheap storage VM.
I'm waiting for the GP to respond with something along the lines of "blah blah you wasted your vote blah blah you acted as a spoiler" ... and when millions of people think that way, there's no chance of any third party candidate gaining any traction. The real problem here are apathy, excuses, and herd mentality.
Sorry, but that's just not true. In the real world, casting one's vote for a third-party candidate who stands no chance of getting elected is a waste of that vote. I am a well-informed voter and will always vote such that my vote counts for as much as possible. The only way that will change is if (yes, we're dreaming here) we switched the electoral process to some form of "instant runoff" process, wherein I could "safely" vote for the candidate I felt best represented my interests, knowing that if his/her bid failed, my vote would then be re-cast for my next choice, and so on.
Sorry, those aren't designated Free Speech Zones. (No, I'm not kidding).
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
That's the problem when someone says "But a strong enough third party would FORCE the Democrats and Republicans to change their platforms/behavior." It ignores how power-obsessed the Democrat/Republican parties are and that THEY make the rules for how politics works. A third party won't magically spring up with 57% of the vote. It'll start small. Perot did very well but got under 20%. So the Democrats and Republicans worked together... to essentially ban third parties. They can exist but rules are put in place making it hard for them to take off. If, in the next election, another third party made a strong showing, you can bet that more rules would be put into place to knock the third party down. At best, the Democrats and/or Republicans might make some token effort to address the reason for the third party's rise, but only enough to quiet people down a bit and make them forget about voting third party.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Richard Clark has shown himself to be a good man. He was regularly trotted out during the Bush years to decry what was going on. I see his name at the top of the list as a good thing.
Administration saw this as a great opportunity to start cutting checks to some old friends.
If I recall correctly, Obamacare's vote was divided by party lines. The only way it passed was by courting independent seats into joining the democrats. Courting independent seats means you need to offer them some red meat to bring them to your side. A third party doesn't necessarily need to win a presidency or a congressional to have weight in politics. Even failed campaigns split evenly between Dem Repub can be upset by a third party which the 2 big parties will need to coax over to their side. Adjusting your platform to invite votes from a third party that holds 5% of the vote makes a difference when Dem and Repub can only come up with with 46% each.
Think about what the GOP was like before the Tea Party rose up. The tea party didn't rise up as a separate class, it got absorbed. Sure there was some bluster about rejecting all incumbents and running separately, but that went away pretty quickly and they became part of the GOP. But in the meantime, the Tea Party minority has enough marginal power to swing the larger GOP party itself over towards their side of the political spectrum, resulting in a massive shift to the right and the current shutdown battle. There isn't a battle between the Democratic and Republican parties, there isn't even a discussion going on between them. All of the battles are taking place within the GOP party between the Tea Party faction and the traditional GOP officeholders. Even moderate GOP politicians who have not lost their seats, are forced to move their platforms to the right to avoid getting a primary challenge to the right.
Basically, third party voters don't even need to win elections to make a difference.
Well, my bumper sticker says "Cthulu / Dagon - Why vote for the lesser evil".
So there..
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
The Tea Party has dragged the entire GOP party to the right. Sure they get elected within the GOP national campaign party, but they've gotten their platform absorbed in the larger GOP platform to create a spectrum shift to the right. They haven't taken a majority in congress as a separate party...but they didn't have to do that to make a difference in US politics. They can run against an incumbent and lose, but force him to move to the right to protect himself from losing his base. I consider the Tea Party to be a very solid example of how a third party can "win" without winning elections. Sure, the result was a shutdown of the government, but hey, they got what they wanted.
Bruce Schneier
Cory Doctorow
Lawrence Lessig
Richard Stallman
Edward Snowden
Not on an open channel he's not.
Who said anything about eliminating corporations?
He is just a figurehead. All he does is try to smooth out controversies and keep the status quo.
Even if other parties have -- at first -- no real chance of winning, having them at all might still make clear just exactly how similar the current major parties are.
You underestimate the extent of the rules in question. They pretty nearly completely ensure that the other parties don't have a chance of winning within the system, regardless of how many people realize D/R are two sides of the same turd.
Then our options are to fix this related "slips on the floor" problem or to leave all problems as-is.
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
Isn't that what liability insurance is for?
(name withheld by request)
Which won't cost them anything. So your argument is a nonstarter. As for anyone who doesn't qualify for under the generous new terms for Medicaid, they'll get subsidies that will reduce their premiums significantly, to just about nothing. If they can't qualify for that, then (1) they can still access individual plans that are significantly reduced in price compared to the previous year and (2) they must be making well in excess of $46,000/year so they must be able to afford it [or seriously reevaluate how they spend their money].
Even the family argument won't work here once you take into consideration the deductions those children represent to perhaps put them under the ACA's own AGI. Even the recent loss of employment doesn't work as an argument, because it's all based on current monthly income and when that becomes zero your annual income calculation under the ACA goes to zero too regardless of however much you earned in the months previous.
Everyone needs health insurance. It's too destabilizing to families when people are suddenly faced with a $30,000 operation. It plays a roll in reduced productivity, crime, child mental health, etc. The fine prods people into doing right by them and the country as a whole, and for many all this means is spending half an hour on a website. Oh God, what a horror.
In the real world, casting one's vote for a third-party candidate who stands no chance of getting elected is a waste of that vote.
So, if you don't vote for the winner, you're wasting your vote?
Write in someone. Write in Mickey Mouse, if you really want to get the point across.
Maybe we should all vote for Robert '); DROP TABLE Candidates;--?
Who said anything about eliminating corporations? Corporations are fine as long as they are properly regulated. It's lack of effective regulation and deregulation that has messed things up.
A Constitutional Convention would be a more appropriate venue.
The right to change the Constitution to something more suited to the citizenry's desires is a fundamental right as demonstrated by the founding of this country, but no one thinks to exercise it.
Hey. Thanks for spreading the word. I've never heard of WOLF-PAC before I read your post.
I've already signed the petition and look forward to contacting my state legislators in the coming days.
I urge you to keep spreading the word that WOLF-PAC exists and that there may still be a way to reclaim our government.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
I too voted for Jill Stein despite having some serious problems with the Green Party. The only thing I have to say to anyone that still votes for the republicrats: Stop with the fucking excuses already; YOU are the problem.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Anyone who didn't see this coming is a knave, fool, or dupe.
If I recall correctly, Obamacare's vote was divided by party lines. The only way it passed was by courting independent seats into joining the democrats. Courting independent seats means you need to offer them some red meat to bring them to your side.
You are aware that this block of independent seats does not exist, right? The House of Representatives hasn't had a non-R/D in almost a decade and hasn't had more than 2 (out of 435) since WWII. The Senate has a single Independent (Bernie Sanders, who considers himself a democratic socialist) who caucuses with the Democrats. Joe Lieberman also was considered an Independent for his last term in office because he lost the Democratic primary but won the general election with support from the national Republican party.
Basically, third party voters don't even need to win elections to make a difference.
Your post in no way actually supported this conclusion.
Did those 2 seats belong to the Democratic party? No? Why is that? Neither a Democratic, nor a Republican candidate owned those seats. As independents they are certainly tempted to receive aid from the larger parties, since there is no large party supporting them, but ultimately they owned the seats and their votes were not guaranteed from the outset. You mention Lieberman taking his seat with help from the Republican Party. He had lost the support of the Democratic party. He could have chosen to side with the Republican Party against the bill to be reelected along the same path.
You're also conveniently pretending the Tea Party has had no effect on U.S. politics.
Your post in no way actually supports your conclusion.
Did those 2 seats belong to the Democratic party? No? Why is that? Neither a Democratic, nor a Republican candidate owned those seats.
Pretending Joe Lieberman was an Independent is laughable. He was a hair's breadth from being the nation's Vice President as a Democrat and was supported by the Republicans in his campaign as an "independent". He lost the support of the local Democrats because of his war hawk and neo-con positions. Bernie is indeed outside the mainstream and a legitimate independent politician. He's also an anomaly. 1 out of 535. Let's talk when he's one of 30 or 40.
You're also conveniently pretending the Tea Party has had no effect on U.S. politics.
I said that? I said nothing about the Tea Party because I had no interest in that part of your comment. Of course they've had an impact. But they're also a movement within the GOP that is shaping the GOP's platform from within. They are not a third party.
You are "free" to choose whatever reasoning resolves your cognitive dissonance and helps you sleep at night.
Does not make you right...
lol. Public property. Good one.
Exactly right.
On another, small, discussion board I used to go on last year, I mentioned after the election I voted for Jill Stein, and a fellow board member could hardly believe he and I voted for the same candidate. The two of us fought on many issues, and our politics are far apart, so he thought our choice would be polar opposites.
In fact, on that board, it turned out that over half of the couple dozen regulars voted third party because we couldn't stomach this crap anymore. One guy, who was the most vociferous liberal there had a hard time explaining why he still voted Democrat, when all his usual supporters didn't.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Fine, fine. OK start a third party but remember the rules of American politics:
Increased military spending
No cuts to Social Security
Loving Jesus
So long as you abide by those core principles you can have whatever policies you like. Without those three you're gonna get obliterated, and with those three you're just the same as the Dems and Republicans anyway.
By cherry picking two sentences out of my previous reply, you managed to miss the entire point of the reply in its entirety. You've also handily proven that point.
Write failed: Broken pipe
Bobby, you're never going to be president if you keep up with these shenanigans.
Write failed: Broken pipe
On second thought, I hear Diebold is hiring, so maybe you'll be elected after all.
Write failed: Broken pipe
Personally, I am happy to see these ppl on the panel. Ppl like Clarke are needed so that the rest of the panel understands what can/can not be missed. However, it strikes me that we need to double this panel and the other half of this absolutely needs to be civil libertarians with a strong CS background who can push for the constitution, and perhaps offer up alternatives. Ppl like Bruce Schneier absolutely needs to be on this panel.
Keep in mind that I worked on this stuff. At the time, and since then, I have stated that I support this, BUT, have always wanted great congressional oversight. Now, I happen to know that critters like rand paul KNEW about this (he is such a lying creep ). But few of them really pushed for oversights. In fact, I would say that with a panel composed like this and not a peep out of ANY in CONgress speaks volumes about them. Basically, we can NOT trust congress to have decent oversight on this. This panel may be the best chance at getting good ideas and decent oversight. Hopefully, EFF and others will push back on this.
So that the vote ranking doesn't merely get us another representative President blockaded by a nutjob UN-representative House Of Representatives.
There are a couple ways to do this (create geometric rules for districts, or switch to proportional representation in Congress) and I read somewhere a Supreme Court decision in 1964 may make the prospect more probable than it sounds.
http://www.timesargus.com/article/20130930/OPINION02/709309932
Other than everyone on Slashdot, every day?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
That is the correct way to vote for the person, not the party they claim to align with.
What we really need to do is switch to a 0-party system and get rid of the center aisle so no one can claim to be on the left or the right either.
Instant run-off and nixing the choose your VP (VP is 2nd place vote-wise for Pres) would be icing on the cake.
Other than everyone on Slashdot, every day?
Not necessarily. We're not always as nuanced, but I suspect that many if not most of our members are not so upset with corporations being seen as legal persons with certain legal rights and duties, which has been the case since the 19th century, as they are with the Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that gave corporations additional rights previously reserved only for natural persons, particularly the right to make political independent expenditures under the First Amendment.
She was a much, much better candidate than either of the two bozos the major parties ran. If you looked at her webpage, she laid out a very comprehensive platform to reform the government to be more of the hope and change than one of the bozos who professed this(and lied.) Her guidance would have put this country back on track to be the America it once was as far as our freedoms, our military policy and this asinine spending without restraint(just the cost of the interest on the debt would pay for Medicare completely.) She was even blocked and arrested when she tried to get into one of the presidential debates which shows just how scared shitless both of them were if she was able to get up and start answering questions as well as pointing out the massive failures that Obama and Romney were(and Obama still is - he promises one thing and then turns around and does the opposite in many cases. It's the old adage - actions speak louder than words with him.) It's too bad that someone like her couldn't have been elected and show the people of this country what a real representative party could do for them. The Ds and Rs would find themselves in deep trouble with their policies(as if they aren't already) and find their positions very tenuous by now. "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies." Groucho Marx
So you're advocating violent regime change then?
So you're saying violence is the only way to effect change from the outside? I don't know about that, certainly not clear to me that's what GP was getting at. Seems to me what you guys need is a third, fourth, fifth major political party with half a chance of, if not winning any election, at least offset the current status quo.
Yes, the U.S. Constitution should be amended to do away with the Electoral College and to allow for political factions to form changing coalitions, especially in light if the awful ruling from the Roberts Supreme Court in 2010 that gave what is essentially citizenship to corporations. The Belt Way insiders need a flush, and we aren't going to get that under the current duopoly, the radicals in the House of Representatives, who don't represent most Americans, aren't helping either. This impasse is due to poor leadership and the breakdown of political traditions. A revitalization of political debate is badly needed with the public taking its responsibility to become opinion makers rather than letting special interests frame the discussion. One way to do that is to allow for as many political parties as can be started to wheel and deal over individual issues. The public will discover that a hand full of parties is enough to reflect both the terms of debate and the coalitions necessary to form policy.
You're the one who said "public spaces". Company-owned property is not public, by definition. While the easement in NYC and other places often allows people to pass through or even linger, it doesn't allow them to set up camp, leave refuse, vandalize, make noise, or block access to others. Perhaps my movement of the 50% of Americans who actually pay more in taxes than they receive in entitlements should set up camp on your lawn or, if it applies, the couch in your apartment. Hope you have HBO.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I certainly am. There's no other sort. While there's no guarantee that violence in itself will bring satisfaction, the current regime is held in place with massive violence. If it is to be overthrown, it will be done with violence and bloodshed. We can argue politely about lesser evils, and we can speak about peaceful change. We'll see none that's meaningful. So long as that is certain, the need for an armed revolution, it makes sense to compete in detailing how one can progress from a successful revolutionary military command to a successful leadership of a divided nation, given victory.