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Why Julian Assange Should Embrace 'The Fifth Estate'

Nerval's Lobster writes "It's no secret that WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has a low opinion of the new film, "The Fifth Estate," in which he's portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch. He's railed against it several times, culminating in a lengthy statement (posted Oct. 9) in which he called it 'a geriatric snoozefest that only the US government could love.' That's in addition to a letter in which he refused to meet with Cumberbatch, saying that the script would force the actor to give a 'talented, but debauched, performance.' WikiLeaks and Assange are clearly attempting a bit of damage control ahead of the film's Oct. 11 release in the U.K. (followed by its U.S. debut on Oct. 18). But what if that pushback is the wrong reaction? That's not to say that Assange should gleefully embrace the film —the script portrays him as something of a hustler who freely lies about his past. Whatever its qualities, however, the film could get people talking about WikiLeaks' role in the broader geopolitical context, and that's ultimately a good thing for the organization: It's been quite some time since Assange and company have provided the world with an explosive, game-changing revelation. If nothing else, Assange can take some cold comfort from the case of Mark Zuckerberg, who faced similar issues when the David Fincher-directed 'The Social Network' made its debut in 2010; Facebook's PR team was probably preparing for the worst as the release date approached, but the film — despite its impressive box office, and the awards it won — ultimately did little to harm either the real-life Zuckerberg's reputation or Facebook's continuing growth."

194 comments

  1. Being portrayed as a liar... by Anathem · · Score: 2

    ...cannot be a good thing for his credibility, no matter what geopolitical issues it brings to the fore.

    1. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Grand Dictator-for-life Baraq Hussein Sotero

      Get over yourself. People said the exact same thing about George W Bush.

      The President is nothing but a figurehead to distract you from the real source of problems.

    2. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by TWiTfan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Being portrayed as a liar...by Daniel Domscheit-Berg

      FTFY. Daniel Domscheit-Berg is behind this movie, as he was the book on which it's based. And it's my strong suspicion that Berg was either a CIA or FBI plant at WikiLeaks. He began sabotaging the operation almost from day one, attempted (successfully) to destroy many of its documents, and has actively participated in the concerted effort to discredit Assange ever since he got canned.

      I would call him a "traitor," but that would imply that he was ever an actual ally.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    3. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by TWiTfan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh, and I should also mention that he tried to set up a leaks site of his own after he left that looked suspiciously like a honeypot operation. Just send your documents and identities to our secretive and closed-source system and trust us to pass it on to the press (yeah, right). Fortunately, it failed, hopefully because no one was stupid enough to trust Daniel Domscheit-Berg.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    4. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by guru42101 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well who's going to trust someone whose last name looks like 'dumb shit berg'.

    5. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      Except WikiLeaks actually published their documents for the world to see, and made it crystal clear by their actions that they were the real deal and not just a honeypot.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    6. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by HornWumpus · · Score: 0, Troll

      The 'real deal' has been cryptome sense before wikileaks was started.

      Wikileaks is cryptome plus a self promoting douche. Wikileaks was like MS, showing up late and declaring themselves the center of the universe.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      And WikiLeaks hasn't outed their sources. Manning wasn't betrayed by Asange, but by Lamo, who looks like a drugged up informant if there ever was one.

    8. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is he supposed to suck Assange's dick with your ass in the way?

    9. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I'm still waiting for the Russian information that they promised a few years ago. Whatever became of that story?

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    10. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lamo turned in Manning before Assange leaked anything other than the "Collateral Murder" video. Assange leaked the rest of the documents knowing full well what it would mean for Manning.

    11. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'real deal' has been cryptome sense before wikileaks was started.

      Wikileaks is cryptome plus a self promoting douche. Wikileaks was like MS, showing up late and declaring themselves the center of the universe.

      Im Sure You Mean Apple Inc.

    12. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear hear! Assange wouldn't want anyone gettign the right idea...

    13. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grand Dictator-for-life Baraq Hussein Sotero

      Get over yourself. People said the exact same thing about George W Bush.

      The President is nothing but a figurehead to distract you from the real source of problems.

      But when peoples said such thing of Bush, he was liking the guy. Big difference!

    14. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Julian "Self-absorbed narcissist" Assange. That's who.

    15. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still waiting for the Russian information that they promised a few years ago. Whatever became of that story?

      They decided that not leaking Russian information and remaining alive was preferable to leaking Russian information and becoming dead.

    16. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by rtb61 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Manning wasn't betrayed by Adrian Lamo. Lamo was just the actor, Manning was betrayed by 'WIRED MAGAZINE' who did it for profit, with the hopes of increased readership, remember that when and if you go to that POS website.

      Reality is Assange feels exposed because many of those who support Wikileaks believe he should takes his lumps for seemingly carrying on like a douche and purposely disrupting birth control measure in order to get women pregnant when it was not their intention. Right now he is a dead weight on Wikileaks and needs to man up, step aside and face his accusers and likely take his punishment.

      Either Wikileaks can stand on it's own, free from the pretensions of a pseudo celebrity and exist as a true collective work or it will fail.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    17. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I'm still waiting for the Russian information that they promised a few years ago. Whatever became of that story?

      They decided that not leaking Russian information and remaining alive was preferable to leaking Russian information and becoming dead.

      That's about what I figured too. It shoots down his self-styled mantle of 'objective integrity'. Oh well, he always seemed to be a dick anyhow. I don't plan to watch the movie, either in the theater or later on DVD/cable/download, because he just doesn't seem like someone worthy of the world's attention.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    18. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      What credibility? Julian Assange broke his bail conditions. He's a fugitive from justice. He ran away from a rape charge. He has no credibility.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    19. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      No, the people saying that were saying it out of fear and hatred of W.

    20. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What credibility? Julian Assange broke his bail conditions. He's a fugitive from justice. He ran away from a rape charge. He has no credibility.

      Honestly I don't give a shit about any of that. His credibility was ruined in my eyes when he chose to "selectively edit" that "collateral murder" video. I watched his edit and the original he later was forced to release to save face, and it's obvious he did everything he could to slant it to reflect his opinion. And if that wasn't enough, he then proceeded to proclaim that he was going to use Wikileaks as a platform to attack the US.

      I have respect for what Wikileaks originally claimed to stand for. I have no patience or respect for an organization which has the primary purpose of pursuing a specific political agenda.

    21. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lamo was the one who saved all of the chat logs, egged Manning on even to the point of flirting and then sent the chat logs on. Lamo betrayed Manning. It seems to me that he did it for some sort of attention.

    22. Re:Being portrayed as a liar... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Where's the contradiction in that to anything I said? Assange didn't betray his source. A drugged up informant did.

  2. What Assange REALLY needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What Assange should embrace is a better legal team to get him out of the embassy.

    1. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What Assange should embrace is a better legal team to get him out of the embassy.

      Do laws matter for governments anymore?

    2. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      He doesn't need a legal team, he just needs to realize that he's already served a longer self-imposed prison sentence than the period of time he would be held for "questioning" if he just walked out the door. He'd be questioned and released, most likely.

      His fear of being transferred to the US is baseless, he's not even accused of a crime here; and his role was clearly legal under US law. The US strategy has been to make baseless threats and scare him into a corner, which surprisingly worked.

    3. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Worked into turning him into a successful political activist you mean.

    4. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The US political elite made it clear they wanted a stop to wikileaks and commented as such to their tame press.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by dbIII · · Score: 2

      There has been plenty of activity in the US on the assumption that he would be delivered to the US at some point and be there to stand trial on the charges that were being prepared. It was a while ago but was all over the press and I suggest you look into it before expressing your ignorant opinion again.

    6. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of a herp-a-derp type of silly and obviously wrong nonsense. He was already a successful activist. And hiding in the closet has mostly kept him out of view and prevented him from continuing to be successful.

    7. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Right... people said words and he hid. That is what I said. You shouldn't have to like the US, or live here, to realize that politicians can't just file political-based criminal charges without a legal basis. He could have just checked with a lawyer to find out if his actions had legal consequences in the US, or if when they said they were "looking" it just meant, you know, "looking." And anybody in the US or who looks into it should be able to tell him, if he parks illegally they'll be right on it, but being the journalist receiving secrets is not a crime here, nor is publishing them. Only the person leaking is breaking the law. He is hiding from the words of elites, not any likely or even possible US charges.

    8. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is silly of you to claim I don't know that. If you were aware of the details of the things you would have me look up, you'd know that you're stating it in a misleading way. The reports you saw in the media did not talk about activity "on the assumption that he would be delivered to the US at some point." The activity was to meet and look at secret evidence and make a show of looking for something to charge him with, to scare him. Which worked.

      Since you vaguely remember having read about it, you probably remember enough for your google search to find the details.

    9. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by dbIII · · Score: 1

      No, it's very "silly" of you not to take it into consideration and have to be reminded of it.

    10. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The activity was to meet and look at secret evidence and make a show of looking for something to charge him with, to scare him

      Are you joking or attempting to be serious here? Nobody wastes so much time just to "scare" a jornalist/blogger/etc. It could not have been anything other than the real deal unless you are one of those conspiracy theory losers that think 99% of everything governments do is waste.

    11. Re:What Assange REALLY needs by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Of course I'm being serious. And yes, in the US, making scary words is all the government ever ever ever ever ever spends their time on in regards to charging journalists with crimes. Journalists are not charged with crimes in the US. In most of the world, journalists can spend time in jail if they make the wrong person in government mad. I'm not asking you to stop hating America. Just learn this one factual detail about the situation here. Our media sucks, but it isn't the Government's doing.

  3. Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's in addition to a letter in which he refused to meet with Cumberbatch, saying that the script would force the actor to give a 'talented, but debauched, performance.'

    That sounds vaguely like the changes against Assange in Sweden .... talented but debauched performance.

    1. Re:Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I thought it was funny... Us ACs have to stick together against mod point bigotry.

    2. Re: Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Burn in hell, rape enabler!

    3. Re:Sounds familiar by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Assuming "changes" was supposed to be "charges," are you sure he is actually charged with anything? I thought he was just avoiding being questioned on a matter in which he is a suspect and which is considered an exceptionally weak case unlikely to ever be brought to court.

    4. Re:Sounds familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is wanted for questioning. However hiding from justice doesn't really increase the goodwill of the court and since it's a typical word against word case it comes down to character. Assanges character vs the women that has accused him.

      That he is charged with rape is highly unlikely though possible (if the description given by one of the women is 100% true then he has technically comitted rape). More likely he will face charges of "sexuellt ofredande" (Sexual misconduct/sexual harassement). Or the case would just be dropped.

    5. Re:Sounds familiar by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      No, he has never been charged with anything.

  4. Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    but the film — despite its impressive box office, and the awards it won — ultimately did little to harm either the real-life Zuckerberg's reputation or Facebook's continuing growth.

    It's a movie, it's made for entertainment purposes.

    It's not meant to be taken seriously, so as long as the party being fun of doesn't, neither will the audience.

    But with Assange throwing a hissyfit over this one, people will start to wonder...

    1. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I see.

      Richard the III was made as a play, for entertainment, and it's stained him as a villain for all of history.

    2. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not meant to be taken seriously, so as long as the party being fun of doesn't, neither will the audience.

      You seem to have a remarkably high view of the moviegoing public.

    3. Re:Well duh... by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      How many plays have been forgotten to time compared to how many have actually influenced public opinion? Odds are this movie will be good to rake in a few million bucks over the next couple years and be forgotten within a decade outside of certain niche political history classes.

    4. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I just expect the moviegoing public to suffer from extreme ADD, and forget everything a day or two after they've watched the movie.

      Unless someone provokes the memory, like this guy throwing a fit over it is bound to do.

    5. Re:Well duh... by FreeUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a movie, it's made for entertainment purposes.

      It's not meant to be taken seriously, so as long as the party being fun of doesn't, neither will the audience.

      History would indicate otherwise. The move "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson took terrible liberties with history, painting the British to be far worse than they ever were. One example, the movie contains a scene where locals were rounded up, herded into a church, and burned alive (with the church). This happened...in France, during world war II. So Mel Gibson and his writers took a Nazi atrocity perpetrated in France, and portrayed it as an atrocity committed by the British against Americans, when no such thing ever happened.

      Similiar falsehoods were spread in another Mel Gibson movie, Braveheart, regarding the Scottish rising up against the English (true) in reaction to various English atrocities against the Scots portrayed in the movie that were demonstrably false and never happened.

      The result in both cases: acts of intimidation, threats, and in some cases violence against the English by Americans (in the case of "The Patriot") and the Scots (in the case of "Braveheart"). These type of historical falsehoods are not rejected by audiences, and are in some cases taken very seriously. If similar falsehoods are being spread about Wikileaks and Julian Assange, then he is right to be pissed off, and right to push back.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    6. Re:Well duh... by TWiTfan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But with Assange throwing a hissyfit over this one, people will start to wonder...

      How would you feel if you had started a movement that you truly believed it, only to have some filmmaker come along and try to discredit that movement on the big screen by smearing your personal life with a cartoonish, exaggerated, and sometimes downright fictional portrayal (based on the work of a guy who had betrayed said moment, no less)? I can understand why he might be more than a little pissed at that.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    7. Re:Well duh... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      No. The burned church full of people happened in the USA during the revolutionary war.

      It didn't involve 'what's his fuck', the villain in 'the Patriot' who is also the hero in much English fiction.

      I'll trust the Scots before I ever trust the English regarding Scottish history.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Well duh... by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      No. The burned church full of people happened in the USA during the revolutionary war.

      It didn't involve 'what's his fuck', the villain in 'the Patriot' who is also the hero in much English fiction.

      I'll trust the Scots before I ever trust the English regarding Scottish history.

      I'll trust a history book or even a documentary before I trust a movie to get facts right.

      Really... who the hell watches a movie to get the unvarnished truth or history? Whoever you are, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you....

    9. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because, whether you like it or not, a lot of people are - get ready for it - 'sheep' and easily influenced. Why do you think those in power crave more? Because they know this. A quick look throughout history will confirm this.

      Personally, I've come to the conclusion that a majority of people don't want to think critically - too much effort involved. Some might say that this is a human trait, but I disagree - it's the trait of a weak-willed and easily controlled mind. Alas, I don't see this changing anytime soon (well, at least in my lifetime).

    10. Re:Well duh... by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      It's a movie, it's made for entertainment purposes.

      It's not meant to be taken seriously

      yeah we have a long tradition of not following that schema.

      --
      Just another second banana
    11. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like how you all argue over some single fact that may or may not have happened, it probably did. English atrocities were never the point to be made in the movies and in fact both movies were about the exact same story. An entire nation of people being enslaved to England. Yes, that is exactly how long this has been happening and yes, you are a slave too.

    12. Re: Well duh... by TreecieBoix · · Score: 2

      After WWII, the Jews and everyone else considered Pope Pius XII a hero It wasn't till a 1960s play, based on the author's imagination, portrayed him and the Catholic Church in Germany as having done nothing to help the Jews that everyone started jumping on the hate bandwagon. People believe what they see, especially if it corresponds with their prejudices.

    13. Re: Well duh... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Well, in that case we've learned even more recently that it turned out that the Catholic Church was helping the Germans to launder the gold teeth they extracted from Jews they had murdered, and receiving valuable art and other plunder for their role. So it was the play that got people onto the right track as to what really happened. Maybe it wasn't the author's imagination at all!

    14. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The burned church full of people happened in the USA during the revolutionary war.

      Citation needed.

      It didn't involve 'what's his fuck', the villain in 'the Patriot' who is also the hero in much English fiction.

      Citation needed

      I'll trust the Scots before I ever trust the English regarding Scottish history

      Thus demonstrating that Gibson has achieved his desired effect - uniltateral, unreasoning hatred and mistrust of the English.

    15. Re:Well duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing I didn't like about Braveheart were the villians. Britain never had a King Goldman, nor Prince Dreyfuss or Duke Seinfeld. Who are these people?

    16. Re:Well duh... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Given the King's status of head of the Church (making it improbable any soldier would try such a deed and get away with it), the fact that such an attrocity would be worse than the more famous attrocities committed against Americans yet is unheard of, and the fact that, as the GP said, a famous incident fitting the description did occur, but in Nazi occupied France, I'm inclined to believe the GP and not you.

      But that said, if you can point at a historical account of this attrocity, I'll be interested in reading it and am perfectly willing to change my mind.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  5. You can't get everything you want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    I say he should embrace the film as one of the inevitable results of attempting to somehow be an attention-seeker while simultaneously hiding from anyone and anything that doesn't completely agree with his ideals. There's only so much you can do to control the public's perception of your character, true, but you throw even that away if you hide from public view and only defend yourself in secrecy.

    1. Re:You can't get everything you want by dbIII · · Score: 1

      attempting to somehow be an attention-seeker

      Get real - he's less of an attention seeker than anyone in Hollywood, "reality" TV or US politics. That line is just an empty and pointless insult thought up by some intern at a thinktank when they were looking for a way to discredit him.

  6. Publicity gains... by djupedal · · Score: 1

    Don't. Stop. Don't. Stop. Don't . . . stop. Don't stop.

  7. Up With Wikileaks by b4upoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope that Wikileaks can continue to get information to the public. I suspect that government agents have infested WikiLeaks in every way they can and wonder if Wikileaks can still function.

    1. Re:Up With Wikileaks by Xest · · Score: 1

      Perhaps that's why Visa and Mastercard (or at least one of them IIRC?) has started processing payments for Wikileaks again. Because the government has infiltrated it?

  8. Er, wait what? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

    the case of Mark Zuckerberg, who faced similar issues when the David Fincher-directed 'The Social Network' made its debut in 2010; Facebook's PR team was probably preparing for

    Taking extra money showers, then wiping their arse with $100 bills? Please! The entire business model of Facebook has been around monetization. They don't care about reputation as long as it sells. "Zuckerberg is evil! Buy this book!" Er, ok. "Zuckerberg is God! Buy this book!" Er, ok. Either way... the book is bought.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Er, wait what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason The Social Network had no effect on Zuckerberg's reputation was because it portrayed him as a kinda-douchey, hard-working, intelligent dork. This was exactly what people assumed he was.

    2. Re:Er, wait what? by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      exactly the struggles of Facebook are not the struggles of Wikileaks.. two separate situations.

      --
      Just another second banana
  9. Asangeption by dadelbunts · · Score: 0, Troll

    Hes probably just mad that its not him playing himself in the movie. Even with Wikileaks he made it about Julian Asange instead of about the leaks.

    1. Re:Asangeption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hes probably just mad that its not him playing himself in the movie. Even with Wikileaks he made it about Julian Asange instead of about the leaks.

      Interesting that even a year ago, this comment would have resulted in "troll" or "falmebait"... How times change...

    2. Re:Asangeption by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      And that's important to anything how?

    3. Re:Asangeption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hes probably just mad that its not him playing himself in the movie. Even with Wikileaks he made it about Julian Asange instead of about the leaks.

      Interesting that even a year ago, this comment would have resulted in "troll" or "falmebait"... How times change...

      American government propaganda. Your (well, American) tax dollars at work.

    4. Re: Asangeption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, Assange was reluctant to be the face of WikiLeaks. "We steal secrets" (considered to be anti-Assange) recognized and spelt out his reluctance to be the face of WikiLeaks ... But let's not get fact (including the reporter that pushed him into the role) get in the way of an entertaining Slashdot post.

      I a Also think of Assange as a dick, but one who did a good service.

  10. Cumberbatch? Really? by mister_handy · · Score: 2

    Thanks to the casting choice of this movie, If I ever meet Julian Assange, I am going to walk up to him and say "KHAN!!!!!"

    1. Re:Cumberbatch? Really? by Ozymandias_KoK · · Score: 1

      I'm confused - are you suggesting he looks like Shatner or Montalban?

  11. Can't beat 'em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So they might as well make a movie about him instead. Character assassination and a profit, everyone wins.

  12. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by SJHillman · · Score: 1

    Our good friends at Mirriam-Webster define terrorism as "the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal".

    I get the political goal part, but I'm really not seeing any sort of violent acts or fearmongering.

    He's closer to being just another dickwad politician than he is a terrorist.

  13. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by TheCarp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > These guys employ terrorist tactics,

    Citation needed. What have the blown up? How many people have they taken hostage and/or beheaded? Or do you just mean they keep secrets? In which case every teenager is a terrorist.

    > act like they are above any law

    Citation needed. Above any law? Would that be when he (not wikileaks the org) offered to meet with prosecutors, just not in their custody on their terms....for mere "questioning"? Would that be when he asked for legal assylum from another country over concerns that the prosecution was a thinly veiled attempt to extradite him for other reasons?

    > That's terrorism

    who is being terrorized exactly? War criminals? Banksters? Politicians? People with dirty secrets hiding evidence of their own crimes?

    I have seen a number of wikileaks, going back before the government leaks, back when it was all banks and companies and their dirty dealings. I have yet to see anything from them I would call terrorism.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  14. Rewriting the facts by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems to me this is a pretty good attempt for the media to portray Assange any way they like. The public will lap it up and believe every bit of it, regardless of it's true-to-life accuracy. It's a lot easier to vilify people when you have the masses on your side already.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:Rewriting the facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean kinda like Assange picks the leaks he releases to portray others the way he likes?

    2. Re:Rewriting the facts by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It's more about religion than politics. One religion believes Assange is the savior of all mankind, and the other religion believes that he is Satan's tutor. Best to just stay out of it rather than try to attempt to inject logic or reason.

    3. Re:Rewriting the facts by captainlavender · · Score: 1

      If ignorance is a choice, then what about all the ignorant people who don't know they're choosing it? I find your signature itself ignorant of the nature of misinformation and the influence of media biases.

  15. Overrated? by MaWeiTao · · Score: 0

    Assange's reaction is interesting because everything I've seen about that movie led me to believe it was going to be an overly positive portrayal.

    While I think Wikileaks is a good thing for the world, I also think Assange is an attention whore and mostly self-serving. I've found it rather obnoxious the way he's been deified by some in the press. He's not the one putting his neck on the line to disclose secret information, but he's wrapped his whole personality around it. People have been leaking information well before the advent of Wikileaks. It's not like the service is the be all and end all for anything. There are a million and one channels for making information public this just makes it somewhat more convenient.

    1. Re:Overrated? by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I think Wikileaks is a good thing for the world, I also think Assange is an attention whore and mostly self-serving.

      High profile people tend to have large egos. Go figure.

      He's not the one putting his neck on the line to disclose secret information,

      And yet he *is* stuck in an embassy for reasons that defy any real logic, stemming from a case that has been prosecuted in a truly baffling manner.

      Just one example would be the level of commitment the UK police have demonstrated in ensuring he stays in that embassy -- a 24x7 stakeout for coming up on 16 months at cost of around 300,000 GPB per month... so closing in on 5 million GPB for a guy accused of something ranging from a misdemeanor sexual assault to something like date-rape.

      Not that I condone date rape or think he should get away with it... but 1 in 4 college women surveyed are victims of rape or attempted rape... how many UK rape victims could they have investigated with 5 million GPB?

      One would think it would be pretty hard to justify that budget for keeping one penned up in an embassy for years on end over a sexual misconduct in another country for which the evidence ultimately amounts to he-said she-said.

    2. Re:Overrated? by onyxruby · · Score: 0

      How many date rapists are high profile and hide out in embassies openly defying the law? Date rape is something that the take fairly seriously in Britain. It's a violent crime from someone accused of two different sexual assaults that refuses to face justice. They certainly aren't spending the money to keep him /in/ the embassy, as they would far rather he come out so that he could answer for the crimes he has been accused of.

      As for your 1 in 4 figure, you might want to find a figure that wasn't an urban legend propagated by the NOW.

    3. Re:Overrated? by vux984 · · Score: 1

      How many date rapists are high profile and hide out in embassies openly defying the law?

      Relevancy?

      And if the 24x7 police guard wasn't there he'd have vanished into obscurity a while ago.You don't get to point to the exception situation the UK police have created as justification for their exceptional behavior. That's circular.

      Date rape is something that the take fairly seriously in Britain. It's a violent crime from someone accused of two different sexual assaults that refuses to face justice.

      Saying its a "violent crime" doesn't make it so and is just inflammatory rhetoric.

      Does he deserve to be arrested and face justice for it. Yes. Does it really rise to the level of an international extradition? Worth spending millions on?

      . They certainly aren't spending the money to keep him /in/ the embassy, as they would far rather he come out so that he could answer for the crimes he has been accused of.

      So ... 5 million GPB... is money well spent?

      As for your 1 in 4 figure...

      Splitting hairs between rape vs attempted rape, or consensual activity, activity that happened despite being actively rejected, activity that didn't happen because it was successfully actively rejected, and activity that happened that wasn't actively rejected but was still unwanted isn't really the point here.

      Whatever number you like, or however you wish to count it, there are far better things for the UK police to be doing.

    4. Re:Overrated? by petrus4 · · Score: 1

      I also think Assange is an attention whore and mostly self-serving.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI4O8byPw7g

      Your comment caused me to go and look this song up, and listen to it. ;)

    5. Re:Overrated? by oxdas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In both cases the sex act was consensual. In one case he told the woman he would wear a condom and didn't. In the second case, a day earlier than the first, he had sex with a condom and then woke up in the middle of the night and had sex again, this time without a condom. The women, who knew each other, wanted him to get tested for stds. Both charges are misdemeanors in Sweden, punishable by a fine, and not even a crime in the UK.

      Assange has offered to receive questioning in a neutral location and Sweden has refused. He has offered to return to Sweden for questioning if they promise, with the force of law, that he will not be extradited to the U.S. Again, Sweden refused. Between Sweden and the UK, they have spent more than $10 million on this case.

      What Assange did is not acceptable behavior, but the actions of Sweden and UK make little sense solely given the crimes for which he is accused.

    6. Re:Overrated? by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      Not that I condone date rape or think he should get away with it... but 1 in 4 college women surveyed are victims of rape or attempted rape... how many UK rape victims could they have investigated with 5 million GPB?

      One would think it would be pretty hard to justify that budget for keeping one penned up in an embassy for years on end over a sexual misconduct in another country for which the evidence ultimately amounts to he-said she-said.

      My god. Where to even begin. If your numbers are to be believed, then prosecution is REQUIRED to change the situation, be it this one man, or any man. One problem is the stigma assigned to the victims in the US and UK. As long as men are allowed to laugh off sexual assault as business as usual, this is one shit culture that we live in.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    7. Re:Overrated? by melikamp · · Score: 1, Informative

      accused of something ranging from a misdemeanor sexual assault to something like date-rape.

      Actually, it's not in this range at all, unless by "accused" you mean "accused by random people and the mainstream media", since Assange has not been charged with any crime in Sweden. They want him for "questioning", so they have an EU (!) arrest warrant out, but that's it. It is clear as day they have a deal to extradite him to US as soon as he lands there. If they were in fact interested in questioning him, they could use linphone.

      Ecuadorian officials at the London embassy offered to allow Swedish prosecutors to question Assange there. This offer was rejected by the Swedish authorities.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_assange#Request_for_political_asylum_in_Ecuador

      Questioning my ass.

    8. Re:Overrated? by vux984 · · Score: 1

      My god. Where to even begin. If your numbers are to be believed, then prosecution is REQUIRED to change the situation

      Uh... the guy is persona non-grata in Sweden, and then again in the United Kingdom too.

      If someone sexually assaulted a woman you know, and then had to flee the country, and then had to flee the country he fled to the 3rd world to avoid extradition... for a relatively non-violent sexual assault.

      Exile to the 3rd world, with automatic arrest and extradition if he tries to come back anywhere with an extradition treaty with the UK/Sweden is pretty stiff consequences.

      As long as men are allowed to laugh off sexual assault as business as usual, this is one shit culture that we live in.

      God god indeed. I don't think anyone is "laughing it off".

      They've got an arrest warrant out for him on INTERPOL. What more do you really expect?

      That's the extent of the police responsibility here -- they hardly need to maintain 24x7 guard on an embassy.

      Next time someone gropes your daughter, and the guy flees the country, then flees that country he fled to to the 3rd world to escape international warrants... what then do you expect the army to be flown in to invade Peru for extraordinary rendition?

      What more do we want here? The women of Sweden are safe from Julian Assange; as is pretty much the rest of the first world. He's a persona non grata in most of the civilized world.

      So that's laughing it off?

    9. Re:Overrated? by GNious · · Score: 0

      If I understood Swedish law (based on what I've read related to the case), the Swedish prosecutor(s) need him to be in Sweden to press charges and bring him in for questioning. They have no use for questioning him at a separate location.

      As for guaranteeing not sending him off to Gitmo or anywhere else, the Swedish government has shown a few times that they are willing to bend their own rules quite a bit, if asked to do so by the USA.

    10. Re:Overrated? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There are a million and one channels for making information public

      The Manning incident proved you wrong. He went to several newspapers with a reputation of publishing leaks but they would not touch it.

    11. Re:Overrated? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      How many date rapists are high profile and hide out in embassies openly defying the law

      I'll raise you from that example to a very high profile movie director wanted for raping a thirteen year old girl who has been openly defiant for decades. Do you see how worthless your argument is now? The attention can't possibly be due to the suspected minor sex crime.

    12. Re:Overrated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since we (Sweden) had a high profile case where heads were close to rolling over sending two egyptians accused of terrorism back to Egypt with a CIA plane I don't think the politicians would risk the same mistake once more.

    13. Re:Overrated? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      the Swedish government has shown a few times that they are willing to bend over quite a bit, if told to do so by the USA.

      FTFY.

    14. Re:Overrated? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      In both cases the sex act was consensual. In one case he told the woman he would wear a condom and didn't. In the second case, a day earlier than the first, he had sex with a condom and then woke up in the middle of the night and had sex again, this time without a condom. The women, who knew each other, wanted him to get tested for stds. Both charges are misdemeanors in Sweden, punishable by a fine, and not even a crime in the UK.

      Assange has offered to receive questioning in a neutral location and Sweden has refused. He has offered to return to Sweden for questioning if they promise, with the force of law, that he will not be extradited to the U.S. Again, Sweden refused. Between Sweden and the UK, they have spent more than $10 million on this case.

      What Assange did is not acceptable behavior, but the actions of Sweden and UK make little sense solely given the crimes for which he is accused.

      The extradition has been challenged in an English court. If the allegations, as described by the Swedish authorities, were not crimes under English law, Assange would not have lost the challenge.

      The statement "Both charges are ... not even a crime in the UK" has been ruled factually false by a British judge. And it should be pretty obvious to you. If a woman agrees to have sex with you only with a condom and she wakes up one morning to find you already having sex with her and without a condom, damned right it's rape. How could you possibly think otherwise?

      I don't know if the allegations are true or not, that's a question for the Swedish legal system to determine when it gets the chance, but Assange's actions are not those of a man who is confident of acquittal.

      By the way, the extradition to the USA thing is bullshit. Assange was fighting to stay in the UK and it's not as if the Americans have any trouble extraditing people from the UK when they want to.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    15. Re:Overrated? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      It is clear as day they have a deal to extradite him to US as soon as he lands there.

      No it isn't. Why didn't the USA initiate proceedings in the UK when we had him in custody? The answer is that they have nothing to charge him with.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    16. Re:Overrated? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Because at the time the citizens of the UK were fucked off with a constant stream of absurd extraditions to the US and another high profile one like Assange would've been political suicide for any government to accept, especially as the government in question was elected on the platform of putting an end to such idiocy. Couple this with the height of austerity measures and a government at it's lowpoint of popularity, that was also a coalition, part of which strongly sympathises with Assange's cause and which if disbanded would bring down the government as there's no way the Tories could operate as a minority government and you can see why there wasn't a chance in hell they were going to take that risk.

      The Tories will have made a calculated decision to make it clear to the US they couldn't help them without risking losing everything. If they'd gone ahead with such a request they wouldn't be in power long enough to action it and the opposition being the opportunists they are would seize on the issue to decimate the number of seats the Tories held taking away all power from them for the foreseeable future.

      It just wasn't politically feasible for the Tories to extradite Assange at the request of the US, not least because he'd committed no crime in the UK - it took them long enough to get rid of the likes of Abu Hamza.

    17. Re:Overrated? by melikamp · · Score: 1
      For whatever reason, USA was not able to make a deal to extradite him from UK. But this has nothing to do with charging him with a crime:

      Emails leaked by WikiLeaks from Stratfor, a private intelligence firm, have discussions surrounding a secret grand jury with a secret indictment. Later, the media organisation received declassified diplomatic cables that confirm a secret indictment exists.

      So he is, in fact, accused of something here in US of A, probably "aiding the enemy" or something equally inane.

  16. Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's no secret that the US military has a close relationship with hollywood at times. They loan military hardware for use as props, in return for assurances that the movies will portray them in a good way. This isn't a shadowy backroom dealing - a few minutes googling will show it's all done out in the open. There is even a small department within the Pentagon, the Film Liaison Office, dedicated to the task.

    So is it possible that someone pressured the studios involved (Principly Dreamworks) to make sure that Assange was shown in a suitably scoundral-like manner? I'm not talking about anything serious like threats of jail for no-cooperating, just a reminder that studios which insult the military or lend support to wanted enemies of the state are not going to be getting any of those oh-so-useful support agreements in future. 'If you make Assange look good, don't come to us next time you want to film scenes on an aircraft carrier.'

    1. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Motard · · Score: 1

      Hollywood certainly has had no problem making the US Military look like boobs in any number of films. I think it's only the movies where they need to use fighter jets, or tanks and the like, that they need to play nice.

    2. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, you touch on something pretty obvious which is close to what I was going to state. This movie, like the other mentioned Zuckerberg film, is a propaganda tool.

      The MIC, as you mentioned, does have ties to Hollywood. Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US. Those ties have grown in the last couple decades, and its honestly rare not to find propaganda in movies (if you look). The themes, items shown, etc... are all done intentionally. People argue that it's "all for money" and all the connections to propaganda are accidental, but would a studio full of professional's making multiple millions of dollars really be doing things "accidentally"? By the way, many books are the same way. They must be vetted and rewritten to suite someone's taste and not just the story the Author is trying to present.

      So Assange is shown as a person to hate in this movie. Zuckerberg, even though there is much controversy about his beginnings and what he stole to get a company going, was presented as a good guy. Those are the messages they want people to get out of the movie. Whistle blowers are evil bad people, while those that hand all your data to the Government are the good guys.

      There is much to study in subliminal messages in movies. Numerous books are out there showing how they do things, in addition to videos showing you what you may have missed seeing in movies but your subconscious picks up.

      I'll close with something I already stated for the doubters. Do you really believe that people making millions upon millions of dollars have movies full of "accidents" or unintentional messages and content? That is not a realistic thought process, yet many have it.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    3. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Considering he raped two women and has a head as big as the Goodyear blimp, that's not hard to do.

      That demagoguery gets more and more pathetic the longer Swedish prosecutors refuse to interview Assange remotely or by visiting him in the embassy, and the longer the Swedish government refuses to say they wont extradite him to the United States.

      If you guys actually gave a shit about the rape allegations, you'd be demanding that Sweden make it clear that it's just about those allegations and not an increasingly transparent pretext to hand him over to the United States.

    4. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US.

      In tinfoil-hat land maybe, in the real world... not so much.
       

      I'll close with something I already stated for the doubters. Do you really believe that people making millions upon millions of dollars have movies full of "accidents" or unintentional messages and content? That is not a realistic thought process, yet many have it.

      Having seen how much is routinely read into things ex post facto (sometimes by decades or centuries), I find it trivial to belief that such things happen. (Not to mention the vast effort it would require to control every single tiny thing said and seen onscreen - an effort it would be virtually impossible to hide over time.) In short, this is just more tinfoil hat nonsense.

    5. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Having actually written things and participated in literary analysis, I can assure you that the first thing you learn is to smile and nod once people start cooing about all the subtle undertones and hidden meanings.

      I once wrote a poem about spring that was then touted as being about denied love. People make of movies/books/poems/art what they will. I can guarantee you that your audience will read into whatever you produce whatever meaning they are looking for and most of there is no more 'truth' behind it than there is to the idea of playing rock records backwards telling you burn puppies and kick kittens.

    6. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US.

      In tinfoil-hat land maybe, in the real world... not so much.

      Are you kidding me? Check out all the propanda films about WW2. You need to leave oblivious-hat land and at least visit tinfoil-hat land or even real-world land once in a while.

    7. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      . Do you really believe that people making millions upon millions of dollars have movies full of "accidents" or unintentional messages and content? That is not a realistic thought process, yet many have it.

      In China, many people felt that the movie Avatar was social commentary about the occupation of Tibet. It got to the point where the government cancelled all 2D showings (about 4500 screens) leaving only the 3D version to play in much smaller number of theaters. Who really knows what was in Cameron's head, but it sure seems unlikely that Tibet was the focus of the movie. Just because some films are propaganda doesn't mean that everything in a film is propaganda.

      http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/stories/avatar-movie-chinese-reactions-long-lines-shanghai.html

    8. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US.

      In tinfoil-hat land maybe, in the real world... not so much.

      You are going to try and deny reality that is proven over your belief? Really? It is no secret that Hollywood worked for the MIC during WW II, The Korean War, and Vietnam War. This fact is most definitely not a conspiracy, it is reality. This is a reality you may not wish to hear or see, but the reality does exist.

      If you knew of a book that showed how advertising uses subliminal messaging would you change your mind and consider that it could also happen in movies, or hide from that reality too? Here, Here, Here, and Here for starters. Those are just the tip of the iceberg mind you, and found in a 5 second Google search.

      Denying reality to maintain a delusion is fine because we all do this. When you post in a public forum you are trying to persuade others to live in your delusion, and that is not fine.

      For posterity, we all have delusions. It's how we make sense of the world and rationalize what we don't understand. Please don't take that comment as labeling you or insulting you, as that was not the intent.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    9. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the western world! only commies use propaganda! the shit i swallow blindly is on the other hand facts and reality!

    10. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by steelfood · · Score: 1

      To concur with your point, professional storytellers have no unintentional messages and content. Most of their education revolves around making up bullshit about past works. They're well aware of the B.S. that'd their own work would become the subject of, and plan accordingly. And the longer they've been at it, the better they're able to manipulate their audience into thinking what they want the audience to think.

      This is what happens when the school system fails. People get their truths from entertainment. That's exactly what how an effective Ministry of Truth works. Deleting the past would cause an uproar. Burying it, and replacing it with a different, better version is far more effective.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    11. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US.

      In tinfoil-hat land maybe, in the real world... not so much.

      This year we discovered that tinfoil-hat land and the real world are the same place.

    12. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you have chosen the right example for your point. While Avatar wasn't about China and Tibet specifically, it was quite obviously and intentionally parable about struggle of small nation against colonial imperial power. As such the analogy with China/Tibet or American settlers/Native people isn't something I would call misunderstanding on the part of audience.

    13. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Historically movies have been put out to "sell war" and FUD about alleged enemies of the US.

      In tinfoil-hat land maybe, in the real world... not so much.

      Are you kidding me? Check out all the propanda films about WW2. You need to leave oblivious-hat land and at least visit tinfoil-hat land or even real-world land once in a while.

      The word you're looking for is not "propanda", but "propaganda". Unless you're trying to tell us about films intended to inculcate a predilection for panda bears, in which case "propanda" somewhat makes sense. "Pro-panda propaganda" would have been even more clear if this was your intent.

      P.S. WW2 was an actual war with actual enemies who were actually bad guys and it actually took place in real-world land.

    14. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      It is vital to the bizarre legal strategy of the US authorities that the public and a potential future jury are led to believe that Assange is a sort of criminal mastermind who 'ordered' people like Manning to hack into military computer systems and steal state secrets, and that he did not just receive documents like any journalist. The movie script portrays him in exactly that way.

      So I agree. The 'conspiracy' does not seem very far-fetched in this case. At least the motive is there.

    15. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by DerekLyons · · Score: 0

      You are going to try and deny reality that is proven over your belief?

      No, I'm accepting reality over *your* belief. There's a difference. Not all movies about war have been put out to "sell war" or spread FUD.
       

      When you post in a public forum you are trying to persuade others to live in your delusion, and that is not fine.

      Um, you're writing my lines here... because it's you who live in a delusion.

    16. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by s.petry · · Score: 2

      No, I'm accepting reality over *your* belief. There's a difference. Not all movies about war have been put out to "sell war" or spread FUD.

      This is not a very good straw man. You use that straw man to categorically deny something that is factual and documented. Hell, even Hollywood admits that they made movies and generated propaganda to sell the wars up to Vietnam. If they did so from WW I through Vietnam, what makes you think that they magically stopped in the last 10 years? No, don't answer that because I really don't want to know what you believe.

      Don't bother posting more fallacies to support your delusion. Read facts put out by the FOA and Hollywood, then come back and talk.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    17. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to add to your comment that the book and subsequent movie portrayal called Black Hawk Down, what really happened as described in the book is 10x worse than what the movie shows. Also, the book explains why 50,000 somali's wanted to shoot rangers and delta troopers. Hint: It had nothing to do with defending the pieces of shit the soldiers entered the city to capture.

      That movie is so white-washed that I consider it a very fine example of propaganda.

    18. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The other aspect of Avatar to study is the message regarding trans-humanism. Avatar is not the only example of this, more recently there is a Vogue series with Google Glass holding similar messages. These are just two examples, but the overall theme is that is trans-humanism is good and godly, while remaining human is bad.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    19. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by sadboyzz · · Score: 1

      In China, many people felt that the movie Avatar was social commentary about the occupation of Tibet.

      What?? Which China are you talking about?

      No Chinese would ever see themselves as colonists, only as victims of colonialism (first the British, then the Japanese).
      No Chinese would ever think of Tibet as an "occupation", only as an "Autonomous Region". Tibet has never been an "issue" in the minds of most Chinese. Chinese travel freely in Tibet, seldom aware that foreigners are often denied access.

      As such, if the Chinese sees any message in the movie Avatar, it can only be about the struggle of indigenous people against the colonial powers, and they would most likely see part of themselves in the navi (especially the signature pony tails) and not the colonists.

      The source you link doesn't even mention Tibet anywhere. The Chinese sources referenced from that page are all mistranslated sarcastic rants against the Chinese government, not really having much to do with how the Chinese interpret the movie Avatar, and most certainly have nothing to to with Tibet.

    20. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by sadboyzz · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that the movie producers are not allowed to have opinions at all? By your standard all movies having any ties to history and current events are propaganda, and all documentaries are automatically propaganda too.

    21. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      You should really watch Batman (1943). Or you can just read the serial's chapter titles:

      1. The Electrical Brain
      2. The Bat's Cave
      3. The Mark of the Zombies
      4. Slaves of the Rising Sun
      5. The Living Corpse
      6. Poison Peril
      7. The Phoney Doctor
      8. Lured by Radium
      9. The Sign of the Sphinx
      10. Flying Spies
      11. A Nipponese Trap
      12. Embers of Evil
      13. Eight Steps Down
      14. The Executioner Strikes
      15. The Doom of the Rising Sun

      I think it shows two obvious things: zombie films as an overdone "art form" is rather old and perhaps that as much as it's not a conspiracy to use current events to sell tickets, it's certainly a historical truth that current events are used to sell tickets.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    22. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by dbIII · · Score: 1

      to make sure that Assange was shown in a suitably scoundral-like manner

      That's par for the course in any Hollywood treatment. Even Apollo 13 added extra conflict and made the astronauts look less professional than reality despite a deliberate effort to try not to do so. At one point Ron Howard decided to story just needed a bit of conflict to keep it exciting.

    23. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      That's just appealing to the audience. The US market loves to see their country as the good guys.

      Us Europeans are often annoyed by American WWII films, which give the impression that the Hitler was on the verge of taking over until the almighty Americans swept in and single-handidly defeated the Nazi menace. U-571 is a particually blatant example - the movie is based on the real events surrounding the capture of a German enigma machine by British forces, but the movie version substitutes American forces and the US navy. Understandably, the British are rather upset that the studio stole credit for a pivotal moment in the war and claimed the US was responsible for a victory they actually had nothing to do with - the film even earned a personal condemnation from the prime minister.

    24. Re:Throwing in a little conspiracy theory here, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You DO realize you're talking about film making right? It is the craft of literally controlling every single tiny thing said and seen onscreen. You should read up on the industry before you make a fool of yourself. Not every film is a time lapse nature documentary.

  17. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So... what civilians have they targetted and killed? Destroyed any public buildings? Held people for ransom? I mean, even if they have caused harm, 'Terrorist' still technically has a meaning. In what way are Wikileaks terrorists, rather than 'dangerous people I don't like'?

  18. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wow, so much stupidity packed in so few sentences! Congratulations!

  19. Risking your career for wikileaks? by HockeyPuck · · Score: 0

    So let me get this straight, wikileaks relies on a steady stream of gov't employees willing to risk their own careers to stay relevant?

    Are they any different than the cold era KGB/CIA in that their main goal is to spy on the gov't?

    1. Re:Risking your career for wikileaks? by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      They don't pay as well?

  20. Meh by Meneth · · Score: 0

    Wikileaks has been over for some time now. Let's start ignoring it already. Other leakers can handle the future.

  21. should e? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    embrace, extend, extinguish? :-)

  22. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by The+Rizz · · Score: 1

    These guys employ terrorist tactics, and act like they are above any law. That's terrorism

    I thought that was governments and corporations?

  23. Fact v. Fiction ... by jabberwock · · Score: 1

    Most of the people who will see the film can tell the difference between fact and fiction, including being able to generally identify the wide swath in between. This is not going to be a "Batman" blockbuster. It's not even going to be a "The Social Network" blockbuster.

    Anyone who had an opinion on whether or not Mark Zuckerberg was sort of a sleaze did not have their opinion changed by seeing "The Social Network."

    1. Re:Fact v. Fiction ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Most of the people who will see the film can tell the difference between fact and fiction, including being able to generally identify the wide swath in between.

      I don't know about that and think it depends on the facts and fictions involved. After seeing Gravity, I'm sure there will be many, many people that think the ISS and Hubble are just a jet-pack ride apart, when, in fact, they are not - Astronaut and a Writer at the Movies. Unless one actually knows (or is willing/able to research) the facts, the fictions can be rather compelling...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  24. Oh darn by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    He's being portrayed in a way he doesn't like by somebody that has an agenda that involves gain on their part by making others look bad. This is happening by using information provided by others and the whole thing is outside of his control. The media is then being involved to make sure that the exploitation is maximized for greatest impact. The bully gets his due and doesn't like the taste of his own medicine and is off to cry to his mommy about how others are treating him.

    This couldn't have happened to a more deserving person if they tried. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    1. Re:Oh darn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's being portrayed in a way he doesn't like by somebody that has an agenda that involves gain on their part by making others look bad. This is happening by using information provided by others and the whole thing is outside of his control. The media is then being involved to make sure that the exploitation is maximized for greatest impact. The bully gets his due and doesn't like the taste of his own medicine and is off to cry to his mommy about how others are treating him.

      This couldn't have happened to a more deserving person if they tried. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

      Your response to not liking someone is to perform slander and "defamation of character"? Who's the bully?

  25. They're afraid of you speech by m00sh · · Score: 2

    The fifth estate is a mediocre movie. The fact that the talented Cumberbach plays Assange means that Assange becomes human rather than a political figure. When Cumberbach is not on screen, it has the feel of a PBS UK import.

    The movie is through the perspective of Assange's friend and so, Assange comes off as a mystery rather than a liar.

    As for the movie, it is just middling. People who dislike Assange will find more reasons to confirm their dislike and those who like Assange will find more reasons to do so.

    Maybe I missed it during the movie but the speech where Assange/Cumberbach says "they are afraid of you" that is in the trailers is not in the movie.

    1. Re:They're afraid of you speech by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Maybe I missed it during the movie but the speech where Assange/Cumberbach says "they are afraid of you" that is in the trailers is not in the movie.

      Probably didn't test well against government audiences...

  26. Julian Assange = Useful Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In every dictionary of English, the explanation of the political term 'useful idiot' should use Assange as the primary example. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about the recent history of whistle-blowing and leaking KNOWS wikileaks was created to destroy honest, non co-opted groups that were attempting to give public access to 'secret' information. Assange was chosen because of his sociopathic personality. The group overseeing the real control of Wikileaks and Assange was led by British Intelligence, under another of Tony Blair's war-mongering projects.

    The British have a long history of using these intelligence methods. During WW2, Britain was injecting control messages into the mainstream media of West Europe, even to the extent of taking over Nazi radio broadcasts seamlessly, with voice impersonators replacing the usual radio announcers (the BBC actually handled the recruitment of the voice talent, leading to the little known fact that the so-called Churchill Radio broadcasts on the BBC were actually spoken by an impressionist, while Churchill was at home- usually outside of London because he was such a coward- drunk).

    Assange was the stooge used to create the circumstances for strife and war in the Middle East- especially Egypt and Syria. Not one of his so-called 'leaks' harmed Israel or the USA- what an amazing coincidence. Assange's ego (and low intelligence) made him the ideal dupe.

    On the other hand, Snowden is the real deal- except even in his case he is a dupe telling us powerful truths, but truths that your masters decided had better come into the open at this time- for fear that an uncontrolled release of the truth later could have a very nasty, uncontrollable backlash. Snowden was allowed to gather and inform us of a FRACTION of the extent of abuses by the intelligence agencies of the West in an inoculation (you inject a little bit of the real 'poison' to allow the body to become immune to further 'poison' in the future).

    Now when informed people tell their sheeple friends about the extent of government evil, their friends yawn, shrug their shoulders and say "heard it all before, and what can anyone do about it?".

    The monsters that rule you spend tens of billions of each on psychological warfare against YOU. You, on the other hand, have exactly one person's collections of resources to fight back- not exactly an even contest. So when YOU try to figure out the real truth behind Assange and Snowden, if there is ANY sheeple instinct in you, you will fail. In truth, even if you consider yourself cynical, you still believe the 'push' information the mainstream media feeds you. You WILL be distracted by the sex crime charges against Assange, for instance, thus limiting your ability to see the bigger picture- that Assange is an identical play to so many used by the British during WW2.

    1. Re:Julian Assange = Useful Idiot by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      s/Assagne/Snowden/
      s/Wikileaks/The Guardian/

      In every dictionary of English, the explanation of the political term 'useful idiot' should use Snowden as the primary example. Anyone who knows ANYTHING about the recent history of whistle-blowing and leaking KNOWS The Guardian was created to destroy honest, non co-opted groups that were attempting to give public access to 'secret' information. Snowden was chosen because of his hacker personality. The group overseeing the real control of The Guardian and Snowden was led by British Intelligence, under another of Tony Blair's war-mongering projects.

      The British have a long history of using these intelligence methods ... such as electing cowardly drunks.

      Snowden was the stooge used to excuse the circumstances for strife at home after war in the Middle East- especially Iraq and Afghanistan. Not one of his so-called 'leaks' harmed Ire land or the UK- what an amazing coincidence. Snowden's ego (and high intelligence) made him the ideal dupe.

      On the other hand, Assange is the real deal- except even in his case he is a dupe telling us powerful truths, but truths that your masters decided had better come into the open at this time- for fear that an uncontrolled release of the truth later could have a very nasty, uncontrollable backlash. Assange was allowed to gather and inform us of a FRACTION of the extent of abuses by the warmongers of the West in an inoculation (you inject a little bit of the real 'poison' to allow the body to become immune to further 'poison' in the future).

      Now when informed people tell their SHEEPLE ::Baa-aa-aa:: friends about the extent of government evil, their friends yawn, shrug their shoulders and say "heard it all before, and what can anyone do about it?".

      The monsters that rule you spend tens of billions of each on psychological warfare against YOU. You, on the other hand, have exactly one person's collections of resources to fight back- not exactly an even contest. So when YOU try to figure out the real truth behind Assange and Snowden, if there is ANY SHEEPLE ::Baa-aa-aa:: instinct in you, you will fail. In truth, even if you consider yourself cynical, you still believe the 'push' information the mainstream media feeds you. You WILL be distracted by the treason charges against Snowden, for instance, thus limiting your ability to see the bigger picture- that Snowden is an identical play to so many used by the British during WW2.

      Clearly, the conspiracy knows no bounds...

    2. Re:Julian Assange = Useful Idiot by petrus4 · · Score: 2

      Assange was chosen because of his sociopathic personality.

      Agreed. Assange is a melodramatic narcissist. As much as he might be railing about the fact that the film will portray him negatively, I can assure everyone here that he probably also masturbates on a regular basis, to the thought that anyone associated with the government has made a film about him at all.

      Assange is an archetypical grey hat. I used to know a few of them on IRC in the mid to late 1990s. They are sociopathic vermin, and completely without any vague semblance of honour; but because of the dependence we now have on computers, they think they are God.

      If you are wondering whether or not to view either Assange or Snowden as legitimate, then I can tell you one very important detail. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, becomes prominent, viral, or in any way noticed on the Internet by accident. It never happens. "Organic," or grassroots Internet publicity is a lie. The only reason why anyone like Assange or Snowden becomes well known, is because it is arranged by the psychopaths. They want you to believe that anyone can become known, but I can assure you that the opposite is true. If you want publicity, you can't afford to seriously offend anyone, because you want the big people and the psychopaths to spend money on getting fake YouTube views for you, and all of the other dirty tactics they use.

      You have to be a complete sellout morally, and you also have to be someone who they will find useful in some way. If you have both of those characteristics, then yes, they will make you famous; but they will also own you, and they will destroy you if you do anything that they do not like.

  27. Is Assange a bit of a hustler who has lied? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hollywood makes movies to make money. I don't know Assange, but weren't there some shady things in his past? I'm not an expert and not accusing him of anything, but when the stories were breaking they ranged from "he is a saint" to "he is the devil." The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

  28. Tautologies by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Even with Wikileaks he made it about Julian Asange instead of about the leaks.

    Repeating an assertion without evidence doesn't make it true. How has Asange made it about himself - it's not like he asked the Swedish government to cook up a witch hunt as a pretext to hand him over to the United States, after he asked for and was given permission to leave the country.

    1. Re:Tautologies by HornWumpus · · Score: 1, Troll

      He had a choice: Donate money to Cryptome or start a competing site with the same purpose but with himself as a figurehead.

      I'm guessing he thought he would get laid more by starting Wikileaks.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:Tautologies by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      He had a choice: Donate money to Cryptome or start a competing site with the same purpose but with himself as a figurehead.

      I'm guessing he thought he would get laid more by starting Wikileaks.

      So that means you are a pretentious douchebag if you ever tried to start your own business, rather than simply donate your time and money to someone else's site?

    3. Re:Tautologies by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      If you start another non-profit with the same purpose as an established and well reputed organization it is very likely you are an attention whore, corrupt or both.

      What would you call someone who wanted to fork the GNU tools and start maintaining them? The kernel?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Tautologies by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      If you start another non-profit with the same purpose as an established and well reputed organization it is very likely you are an attention whore, corrupt or both.

      So Doctors Without Borders are a corrupt attention whoring organization because the Red Cross predates them by a century? You can't have two non-profit hospitals in a metropolitan area? Camp Fire should fold because there are already Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts?

      Are you really going to stick by a talking point that's based on nothing more than personal animosity and ad hoc arguments, in a world when there's enough secrecy and government corruption for a thousand Wikileaks and a thousand Cryptomes?

  29. Par for the course. by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of the pro-gov slanted news and media in Russia, China, Syria, etc.

    Just mix in some non-factual shit, call it "artistic license", and you can paint whichever real events however you want in the minds of fools -- The largest voting demographic...

  30. Truth by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

    Wikileaks is about exposing hidden truth. Assange would be a hypocrite to go along with a production that he feels hides the truth.

    Assange might be wrong about what constitutes truth in this situation because, unlike something as straight-forward as publishing secret documents, some truths are a matter of perspective. Nevertheless, you can't reasonably expect Assange to go along with something he believes is not truthful.

    Comparisons to facebook miss the point. Facebook is about making money and while they may have lofty corporatespeak goal - they are a publicly traded company and therefore can't honestly aspire to anything more than the almighty dollar.

  31. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    Would that be when he (not wikileaks the org) offered to meet with prosecutors, just not in their custody on their terms....for mere "questioning"?

    He's even offered to return to Sweden, if Sweden promises not to hand him over to the United States. That Sweden refuses to do so tells you all you need to know about what their intentions actually are and how much of a shit they give about the allegations.

    Which is also a brave move on Asange's part, because while Sweden has great hippie health care and education, their justice system is straight up authoritarian. The state can hold suspects for extended periods of time without bail, and also incommunicado. So if Asange goes back he could be held for months without outside contact or an attorney.

  32. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

    These guys employ terrorist tactics, and act like they are above any law.

    Sure, the NSA is bad, but what was your point about Assange?

    Thank you folks, I'll be here all week.

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
  33. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't see the acts of violence perpetrated by the american terrorists^Wgovernment all over the world to further the american corporate^Wpolitical goals? Then you must be blind.

  34. Laugh by koan · · Score: 1

    Producer (one of them)
    Steve Golin (born March 6, 1955)[1] is the founder and CEO of Anonymous Content LLP, a multimedia development, production and talent management company and co-founder and former CEO of Propaganda Films.[2]

    "producing spots and campaigns for Nike, Intel, Citibank, United Airlines, Ford, Audi, Coca-Cola, Pepsi"

    Well versed in propaganda, or for the slow people "A really good liar"

    Bill Condon ( winner of the Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Director for his work on The Twilight Saga) is a shlock artist well versed in writing mindless garbage, also a big fan of propaganda (that benefits him of course).

    All in all the reason Assange isn't happy about the film is it's a hit piece, a dilution of a critical issue.
    Making a movie is the first step to marginalizing Assange and wikileaks into meaningless.
    Hollywood knows this, look at how well they marginalized the American public and destroyed this country.

    The comparison to the Facebook movie is a naive and simplistic view that is entirely incorrect.
    Everyone making that film knew it would appeal to the young set.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  35. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would that be when he (not wikileaks the org) offered to meet with prosecutors, just not in their custody on their terms....for mere "questioning"?

    He's even offered to return to Sweden, if Sweden promises not to hand him over to the United States. That Sweden refuses to do so tells you all you need to know about what their intentions actually are and how much of a shit they give about the allegations.

    It mostly tells me that Sweden respects the principle of legality more than you do. In Sweden extradition requests are negotiated before a court. What you want is the government to tell the judge what the outcome of such a case should be. That may work in Mother Russia but it doesn't fly in Sweden.

  36. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    No, that was only one option presented, they could conduct their questioning (not trial, or anything else) on neutral ground. Or does respecting the principle of legality extend to countries which you are not in and mean you must expose yourself to their legal system if they make an accusation, even if you are not within their country?

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  37. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alexander? Is that you?

  38. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    him as something of a hustler who freely lies about his past

    This isn't completely inaccurate, the fact remains he continues to take full credit and has seemingly, in his own egotistical way acts as if he is a savior of wikileaks/whitleblowers. There was an investigation by FrontLine and or a documentary on the sundance channel that showed who was really responsible for 90% of the information that ended up on wikileaks, and Assange flat out denies ever knowing these people, but it is ridiculously easy to find evidence that he was closely connected to these people.

    Obviously one could argue that he was trying to protect or deflect attention away from his sources, but when they're willing to be interviewed by a reporter without blacking out there faces, they never wanted to protected to begin with.

    And I agree with your comments, but you have people that buy into government propaganda and the whole ridiculous notion of patriotism (which really is similar to religion) that claim this type of reporting supports terrorism, or whatever else there minds conjure up.

  39. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Citation needed.

    Go back to Wikipedia and continue masturbating as you edit. Idiot.

  40. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by petrus4 · · Score: 1

    Citation needed.

    Please don't use the citation needed troll. Yes, the person you're responding to is a fairly typical brainwashed American, but that response implies that you are someone who doesn't believe anything, unless it comes to them second-hand.

    You wouldn't want us to think that, would you?

  41. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    It mostly tells me that Sweden respects the principle of legality more than you do. In Sweden extradition requests are negotiated before a court. What you want is the government to tell the judge what the outcome of such a case should be. That may work in Mother Russia but it doesn't fly in Sweden.

    Ooo, look, anther Zombie Lie. The Swedish courts can prevent the government from extraditing someone, but they cannot compel it.

  42. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by gnasher719 · · Score: 1, Informative

    He's even offered to return to Sweden, if Sweden promises not to hand him over to the United States. That Sweden refuses to do so tells you all you need to know about what their intentions actually are and how much of a shit they give about the allegations.

    That's very generous of him, but in the end he skipped bail in the UK after running from Sweden, and no governement would make such a promise - it is quite likely that the USA don't have anything that would require an extradition, but if they do, then not extraditing him would be highly illegal.

  43. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    Its more of a jab than a troll. I am perfectly fine with no citations however, those are some pretty extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which in this case, should at LEAST be a citation of some sort.

    I mean seriously "Wikileaks uses terrorist tactics"? I am a pretty staunch supporter, but if that were true, I would need to seriously rethink my feelings on them. Everything I know about them indicates this is false for any reasonable definition of "wikileaks" or "terrorist tactics".

    So yes, if he or anyone else, wants to be taken seriously on a statement like that, a citation should be included. If its true then either there is a citation out there, or the poster has inside information which seriously needs to be published ASAP. Either way, without that, its just an unfounded and nonsensical claim.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  44. Wikileaks role in the broader geopolitical context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the main criticisms of Wikileaks is that the movie just skips this part, so instead of talking about Wikileak's role in the broader geopolitical context, people will just talk about the rest (just like they are talking about Snowden and not about the crimes). It skips where the troops got out of Iraq (officially ending the war) because they were going to start being charged for their crimes over there. It skips where Tunisia and other dictatorships fell because of the leaks. It just skips everything that matters and talks about him instead.
    Any movie that does not portray the US government crimes properly is biased in their favor, it's not impartial or balanced.

  45. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    What acts of violence are those? I doubt you can find even 1 that is recent and not defensible. You may not agree with the defense, but if there is legit debate over what is a just military action and what isn't, then you're intentionally lying by saying you'd have to be "blind" not to agree. It is only things that are not reasonably debated where you'd be "blind" not to see it.

    So in addition to being a coward, you're also a liar.

    Even if you're against most US military action, you'd be blind not to see that there is a serious difference of opinion about what is Just and Good.

  46. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1, Informative

    Would that be when he (not wikileaks the org) offered to meet with prosecutors, just not in their custody on their terms....for mere "questioning"?

    He's even offered to return to Sweden, if Sweden promises not to hand him over to the United States. That Sweden refuses to do so tells you all you need to know about what their intentions actually are and how much of a shit they give about the allegations.

    Which is also a brave move on Asange's part, because while Sweden has great hippie health care and education, their justice system is straight up authoritarian. The state can hold suspects for extended periods of time without bail, and also incommunicado. So if Asange goes back he could be held for months without outside contact or an attorney.

    That is a fake offer, made in poor faith; they can't promise not to hand him over if he's charged with a crime in the US. And since he hasn't been charged with any crime here, they can't even give a conditional promise not to hand him over for a specific charge. What if it turned out he'd murdered somebody? I'm not suggesting he has, or suggesting that there is any accusation that he has. But you can't know what crimes somebody didn't commit. You can't make a blanket promise not to extradite somebody to countries you have extradition agreements with.

    And honestly, as an American, it seems pretty absurd that somebody in his situation would have real fear of charges. No US jury would convict him. Even a jury that hates him would find him "not guilty." The people who leaked to him often committed crimes in the US, but he did not, and since his intent was clearly to act as a journalist, even if he'd been in the US when he did it, his part in it is explicitly protected. The US simply made vague threats and he got so caught up in his anti-American propaganda that he freaked out and hid in a closet. And presumably he's given himself a life sentence.

  47. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Extraordinary evidence isn't required in a forum where people are talking. Citations are laziness. What is really called for to accompany an extraordinary claim would be an extraordinary argument of support. Which is lacking, granted. :P

  48. sage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how_to_merge_the_truth_with_fiction_-_the_film.avi

  49. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Sweden extradition requests are negotiated before a court

    In just about every country everything gets decided before a court. And yet somehow governments can still grant immunity from prosecution.

    Except, that is, when the government wants prosecution above all else.

  50. The Problem Is That The Fifth Estate is Fiction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The biggest problem with the Fifth Estate is that it's subjective fiction, and Assange has been one of the biggest targets of government-driven propaganda smear campaigns around. There is still a far superior movie waiting to be made about this subject written by investigative journalists as a documentary.

  51. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Just and Good was supporting Saddam invading Iran?

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  52. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Do you really think he'd get a civil trial instead of GIMTO treatment or even extraordinary rendition to Egypt or wherever for a spot of torture? If he gets with reach of US spook agency vengence he's fucked. Those guys see the law as nothing but a blunt instrument.

  53. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    However in the absence of a cogent argument, citations will do for making the point. Especially since holding someone to such a high standard as being able to summon such an argument may be unfairly hamstringing him.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  54. Find a new hammer by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Religion isn't the nail this time. I'm sorry but your example is just as clueless as the idiotic climate science is a religion/biology is a religion/geology is a religion/apple fanboyism is a religion posts.

  55. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is really called for to accompany an extraordinary claim would be an extraordinary argument of support.

    Is that not a citation?

  56. You should read Brave New World. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    1984 was written as a response to Brave New World; without it, 1984 would not have happened. 1984 is based upon almost entirely negative feedback and censorship for total control. Brave New World was based entirely upon positive feedback controls and distraction; censorship wasn't heavy handed; it didn't need to be. It was more imaginative and trying to point out new methods of control (which were beginning to be used at the time) and new problems while 1984 was a rebuttal, reminding people how human nature has always worked and therefore is likely to continue to work - both go to extremes in their opposite directions for emphasis. Both fail (probably intentionally) to address the flip side.

    Creating entertaining versions of history and news which distort truth while NOT censoring the actual truth is totally like Brave New World and is not like 1984. Conditioning people to be such wimps that when they do find the truth it is so unpleasant that they essentially punish themselves with their inability to handle truth.... meanwhile being surrounded in numerous escapes... also makes it difficult to spread bad news around-- no big brother required... distributed decentralized control is even possible. FOX News is a great example, they use both techniques.

    You don't need to Torture somebody to make them a loyal party member.

    1. Re:You should read Brave New World. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love Big Brother, and I don't even need much Victory Gin to say so.

  57. It's a movie, not a documentary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why is it that you treat it like a documentary and claim WL and JA are "doing damage limitation"?

    A fiction based on real life (like that submarnine in WW2 thing) will "sex things up" to get an interesting movie rather than a strait documentary and pointing it out to people is not "Damage limitation", it's reminding people "It's a fookin MOVIE".

  58. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    If you have to go back that far, you're almost arguing against yourself. But yeah, you make my point very well; it is not clear-cut, it is a matter of differing values and opinions. A matter of real, actual differences in what people believe is Good. You shouldn't need to land on one side of that, or the other, to see that they are real opinions.

  59. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 0

    That is a bunch of silliness that shows extreme ignorance both of the US legal system, and also the actions you make reference to.

    If he was acquired through an extradition request to Sweden, he would already BE in the civil legal system. You can't be removed from the civil criminal system to the military unless you are a member of the military.

    Everybody in GITMO are people who were captured in a war zone and accused, at least on capture, of being illegal (without uniform) enemy combatants. It is not, and has never been, a dumping ground for political prisoners. That is extreme ignorance.

    US intelligence agencies don't have free access to people being held by civil authorities. And giving them access without a lawyer present would basically taint his case so bad he'd be released.

    If you go back to Vietnam, to the Pentagon Papers, the only reason Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked a bunch of secrets relating to the Vietnam War, didn't go to prison was that the prosecutors misbehaved and so they threw out the charges. That is the real US system. And the journalists were never charged; and while more extreme individuals in government said naughty things about those journalists, there were never serious threats of charges. Because the journalist is protected. Not in theory, in reality.

    You don't have to like the US system to see that it does have strong areas.

    As for extraordinary rendition, the practice of giving people to third countries to be mistreated, that can't happen once you're under civil criminal detention. And it never has. And the CIA isn't allowed to do it anymore anyways, because it wasn't effective. (Egypt isn't using scientific analysis to determine which techniques result in quality intel) That was all getting intel, and it was a failure.

  60. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Citations are silly, people can look it up. I'd rather they look it up and educate themselves, than choose propaganda to feed them.

  61. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    That is a fake offer, made in poor faith; they can't promise not to hand him over if he's charged with a crime in the US.

    Nonsense. Foreign countries refuse to extradite people to the United States all the time, based on our death penalty and atrocious civil rights record. Given the psychological torture inflicted upon Bradley Manning, and Obama personally intervening to keep a journalist brutally imprisoned in Yemen, any country in the world has a perfectly valid reason refuse to hand over whisteblowers and journalists to the U.S.

    If you want to try and run with this "you must extradite" line of reasoning, why don't you start by demanding the State Department turn over Luis Carriles to authorities in Cuba and Venezuela to face trial for bombing air planes. And when will George W. Bush be arrested and turned over to Malaysian authorities?

    And since he hasn't been charged with any crime here, they can't even give a conditional promise not to hand him over for a specific charge.

    Hardly. U.S. charges would of course be based on Assange's activities at Wikileaks, so it would of course be trivial to make a promise not to extradite for anything having to do with journalism. If the FBI suddenly turns up video and DNA evidence that Assange was a triple ax murderer in Ohio, then they could request extradition for those charges.

    It's also well known that the DOJ has a sealed indictment against Assange, which means they have charged him, they just haven't been open about it.

    And honestly, as an American, it seems pretty absurd that somebody in his situation would have real fear of charges. No US jury would convict him. Even a jury that hates him would find him "not guilty." The people who leaked to him often committed crimes in the US, but he did not, and since his intent was clearly to act as a journalist, even if he'd been in the US when he did it, his part in it is explicitly protected.

    On some other planet where a whisteblower wasn't just handed a longer sentence than eight spies who sold secrets to Russia, for money? Where the only person to do jail time for the Bushco torture program was the person who confirmed it's existence?

  62. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    That is a bunch of silliness that shows extreme ignorance both of the US legal system, and also the actions you make reference to.

    Stones, glass houses:

    Padilla was arrested in Chicago on May 8, 2002, on suspicion of plotting a radiological bomb ("dirty bomb") attack. He was detained as a material witness until June 9, 2002, when President George W. Bush designated him an enemy combatant and, arguing that he was not entitled to trial in civilian courts, had him transferred to a military prison. Padilla was held for three and a half years as an "enemy combatant." He was subjected to what were called enhanced interrogation techniques, regarded as torture under International law, including sleep deprivation, shackling and stress positions, the administration of psychotropic drugs, and solitary confinement.[1] After pressure from civil liberties groups, the charge was dropped, and his case was moved to a civilian court.

  63. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 0

    No display of apples can make my oranges red.

  64. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    We don 't extradite to those countries.

    And no, it isn't "well known" that the DOJ has a "sealed indictment" against Assange. It has been widely speculated in foreign press. And if you knew anything about US law, you'd know better than to believe that nonsense.

    And I don't see what is so hard to understand about the claim that the person leaking classified information is committing a serious crime, and the journalist they leak it to is protected by the US Constitution. If you can't even understand that part of my point, then why bother? You know you don't know anything about the US legal system if you're having trouble with that basic distinction.

  65. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by dbIII · · Score: 2

    That is a bunch of silliness that shows extreme ignorance both of the US legal system

    With respect, you are showing how naive you are if you think it's going to be dealt with via the US legal system. Have you slept for the last decade?

  66. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 0

    No. You have to pay attention to the details. If he's extradited then he's in the legal system. That is how the transfer happens. They don't just hand him over to anybody with a US flag pin.
    And if you pay attention to details, the US doesn't target journalists. Free speech is sacred here. Though they certainly will make threatening statements about people who are perceived as working against US interests, especially if they were assisting somebody to leak classified information, which is a crime. But they don't go after the journalist here. Period. It would not be tolerated by Americans if he was nabbed by some rogue CIA agent.

  67. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    We don't extradite to those countries.

    False. We have extradition treaties with both Venezuela and Malaysia. Either Bush and Carrieles are as subject to extradition as Assange, or your argument is invalid.

    And no, it isn't "well known" that the DOJ has a "sealed indictment" against Assange.

    Yeah. It is.

    And if you knew anything about US law, you'd know better than to believe that nonsense.

    Where the Obama administration has subjected reporters to criminal investigations and prosecuted more whisteblowers than all previous administrations times two? If you are so ignorant as to US legal system is and has been working maybe you shouldn't be commenting on the subject.

    No display of apples can make my oranges red.

    No amount of poutrage is going change the fact that you're wrong. Manning showed how the USG is willing to treat whistleblowers and Padila showed how even civilains are subjected to brutal military prison conditions. And that was before the passage of the NDAA, which allows indefinite military detention without trial.

    In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.

  68. Re:Wikileaks = Terrorist Organization by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Rolling Stone isn't a news outlet. I know, shocking, painful thing to find out.

    A private intel company, connected to the CIA, leaked... an email. of their own. to themselves. with scary words.

    Even Rolling Stone comments, "The news, if true, was a bombshell." Yeah. Exactly. "If true."

    If you actually read the story, that alleged email wasn't leaked. Somebody claims to have stolen them, and we don't even know who, so that is exactly the kind a sane person will ignore; especially when most of the people involved are intel agencies or companies. There is just no way to know which documents are forged by the person who stole them, which were forged by stratfor, which were forged by the CIA, etc.

    And get a clue, look it up, the US doesn't prosecute journalists. Period. Look that one up. I'm serious.