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Scientology's Fraud Conviction Upheld In France
schwit1 writes "France's top appeals court has upheld a fraud conviction and fines totaling hundreds of thousands of euros against the Church of Scientology, for taking advantage of vulnerable followers. France regards Scientology as a cult, not a religion, and had prosecuted individual Scientologists before, but the 2009 trial marked the first time the organization as a whole had been convicted. 'The head of a parliamentary group on religious cults in France, lawmaker Georges Fenech, hailed the ruling. 'Far from being a violation of freedom of religion, as this American organization contends, this decision lifts the veil on the illegal and highly detrimental practices' of the group, said Fenech. The court case followed a complaint by two women, one of whom said she was manipulated into handing over 20,000 euros in 1998 for Scientology products including an "electrometer" to measure mental energy. A second woman claimed she was forced by her Scientologist employer to undergo testing and enrol in courses, also in 1998. When she refused she was fired.'"
i wonder if there are any high level Scientologists in the NSA?
Scientology is the truth! Both Tom Cruise _and_ John Travolta are scientologists. Do you believe me now?
those cult freaks swarm through the streets here, scuttling between the many local 'church' buildings... used to be that they would station young kids (many teenagers) at local flea markets to offer free massages and 'stress tests' to do recruiting...
lately, that approach has switched to the cult using immigrant and non-English speakers to entice other adherents...
CoS is a sickening, freakish cult that obfuscates real-estate and business ownerships, such as drug-rehab centers...
"one of whom said she was manipulated into handing over 20,000 euros in 1998 for Scientology products including an "electrometer" to measure mental energy"
she obviously wanted a refund because the meter reading was zero.
To be rid of these silly cults once and for all
But they don't behead unbelievers or crash airliners into buildings. Of course, that's probably why the French feel it's safe to fine Scientology.
"Whenever the cause of the people is entrusted to professors, it is lost." ~ V.I. Lenin
Damn Frenchies have more sense.
And a few thousand more religions to go.
Why is Snark Required?
It's not the religion that's the problem, it's the crime. If the scientologits just got fleeced and only hurt themselves, that's their own business. It's the child abuse, murder, slander, and so on that makes them an issue.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The difference between a cult and a religion is that in a cult the founder is still alive. Since LRH is definitely dead er, has abandoned his meat body, that puts Scientology pretty much on par with the other groups that believe in sky wizards.
Scientology is a cult, it's entire story is based off a science fiction novel written by man who wanted to make a religion! All of that would be fine but then to charge your members fees to read from books is kind of messed up, that would be like the library charging you based on every book you took out. I don't see how any logical adult can honestly see Scientology as anything but a joke, it's only slightly more a joke then the Mormon based religion, both of which have near 0 evidence for what they take as fact.
Freedom of religion is an issue here though, inasmuch that the disinclination to interfere with religious practices has broadened into a more general lack of oversight of the organisation. If it was a particular township or family that had a long history of abuse, it would be investigated very extensively. However the social obligation not to tread on Scientology's religious practices - such as handing over thousands and thousands of dollars - is trumping the social obligation to prosecute it.
That's a thorny patch because every step you take towards prosecuting them has non-obvious knock-on effects in weakening the protections of the religious freedom of other groups who are acting in good faith.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
is the number of followers...
Nothing about regarding, it is a fact. Scientology IS a cult.
How could anyone possible think otherwise considering what the founder said?
"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
4th paragraph:
As if being convicted in a court of law for organised fraud is just an opinion of an unspecified number of critics...
How about this get added in the 2nd paragraph:
but I ran out of money.
Cryonics - Keep cool and carry on.
Proof that freedom of Religion isn't always a good thing...
As always you need to judge people and organisations by their actions and not their words.
20 minutes into the future
The Venn Diagram of Irrational Nonsense
Oh, piss off. If you're too stupid to differentiate between the religion and the extremist interpretation of the religion, then I really pity you. I'm also shocked that this has been modded *UP* rather than down as "troll" or "flamebait".
Scientology is, as has already been pointed out, a cult started by a Sci-Fi author who wanted to make a lot of money. Islam is a religion, and there are millions of truly faithful Muslims out there who are every bit as peaceful in their daily life as the millions of truly faithful Christians (or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Sikhs, or followers of x y or z other faiths).
Just in the same way most Irish weren't involved in blowing up each other / the British during the height of the Troubles (note this was a war about the difference between the two main groups of Christianity (Catholicism and Protestantism) and about occupation/independence, and *nobody* was saying shit back then about "all Christians are terrorists".
Those who blow themselves and other people up while claiming they're doing it in the name of Islam are idiots, and are delusional. The average suicide bomber has been brainwashed into it by the sorts of horrific people (i.e. Osama Bin Laden / Al Qaeda and other like-minded organizations) who recognize the power of religious belief and exploit that to their own ends - i.e. money and power. That's what it comes down to, not religion. If they can recruit young and impressionable enough people, and present themselves to these people as priests and clerics, and preach to them that God will reward them if they commit these acts, then it's far more likely to succeed then just placing a wanted ad for soldiers.
TL:DR version - I think you're an idiot - "terrorist" and "muslim" are not interchangeable terms.
He's Jesus, for Christ's sake.
"I have just as much authority as the Pope, but fewer people believe it."
George Carlin
They're free to believe whatever they want, but what they're not allowed to do is harm others. If they harm people (scam them, physically harm them, cause them to die by giving them nonsensical advice on how to cure a disease or illness, etc.), they can be prosecuted for it. It has little to do with freedom of religion.
Tolerance means refraining from using coercion to stop people from doing things that piss you off. An enlightened society tolerates religious differences, but not crime.
Scientology pisses me off, but I am prepared to tolerate its existence. I will speak out against it but I do not want the government (French or my own) to forcibly shut it down or punish people just for following it. What I am not prepared to tolerate is criminal behavior by individual Scientologists. If they defrauded people, lock 'em up like Bernie Madoff. I am not ashamed to be intolerant of fraud.
So I don't think freedom of religion is a bad thing. The fraud is not a result of religious freedom, it's a result of immoral choices by members of a religious organization.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
No, it's the smokescreen. They bring up the "freedom of religion" thing just to try to get fringe pentacostals or similar that see themselves under threat onto their side.
France regards Scientology as a cult, not a religion
A second woman claimed she was forced by her Scientologist employer to undergo testing and enroll in courses, also in 1998. When she refused she was fired.
It shouldn't matter whether it's a cult or a religion; if someone got fired for not undergoing religious courses and testing, that should be treated the same way by the law.
99% of their scam is to pretend to be a religion to make it more difficult to stop their scam. They are no more a religion than My Little Pony fandom is. It's not as if we don't have dozens of clues that it's a scam.
Freedom of Religion is irrelevant in this case since we only have the word of the obvious scammers themselves that it's a "Religion", while we also have their word that it's a good way to dodge tax and that they took up the "Religion" angle late in the game after "Dianetics".
No, using the word "religion" is precisely what makes Freedom of Religion relevant - doesn't matter who says it, doesn't matter who believes it.
What is wrong, and what is not in the Constitution, is that any religions are tax exempt. They are all in business - might be the business of saving souls, but the only outward sign is that they're in the business of drinking wine, lighting candles and ringing bells for fun and entertainment. They all should be taxed just like any other nightclub.
Give nobody any perverse incentives to create one, and we'll have a lot fewer of them to deal with.
John
It is possible that the corruption of the leadership goes so far that the whole institution is basically an organized crime ring. (In fact, I think that is likely true.) In that case, it might be necessary to dismantle the current institution in order to protect society. Nothing, however, should prevent a non-criminal splinter group or successor that preaches Scientologist beliefs from forming and operating.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
There are people in the Netherlands, who sink old fishing nets with attached bits to the bottom of the Oosterschelde estuary (it's a natural reserve, so it doesn't bother boats). Then they wait a few year, put on their diving suits, and go looking at those old fishing nets underwater.
You may wonder why people have this as a hobby.
They do it, because they fully expect that the extremely elusive and rare (in NL) Sepia squids have found those fishing nets as a useful habitat, and found a mate in those murky waters, and have begun a family.
In a similar vein, your question seems really stupid and weird.
But I wonder what you get, if you create a habitat for extremely paranoid people, who like to sit in Captain Picard's chair, swim the murky waters of the Internet all day, unobserved by anyone else, give them the opportunity to meet and work with like-minded individuals, and take pride in manufacturing lies targetted for effect in the broader population. What would happen if you left such a habitat abandoned to the ebb & flow of the normal HR process of a large and rich organization for, say, 20 years. What kind of fascinating creatures would come floating to the top of the food chain?
Who knows. You're not allowed to find out. You'll never find out.
Religion is bad but scientology is even worse.
The USA has a rather terrific record on Freedom of Religion. That's one tradition we haven't screwed up yet. France is another story, they have a truly dreadful record. This article is about France.
I can see how the woman bilked out of money could file a case against the church but how in the hell does the lady who was fired have a case? Shouldn't that be a suit between her and her former employer?
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
There wouldn't be as many AIDS patients if the church hadn't condemned condoms as an unnatural perversion of God's law.
In France, the difference between a cult and a religion is whether they preach being open to the rest of society, versus hiding what you're doing from others.
From a society standpoint, this is the only important criteria.
By that definition, CoS is a cult.
http://atheisme.free.fr/Religion/Sectes_liste.htm
It's not really a "singling out", but yeah, Les Témoins de Jéhovah are on there.
I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen