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New York City Considers Articulated Subway Cars
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Many of New York City's subway cars are well past their prime and due for fleet replacement, most strikingly those on the C line, known by their model number, R32, and for the tin-can siding that will continue rolling beneath Eighth Avenue for at least a few more years. Now the NYT reports that transit planners have urged the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to consider articulated subway cars for any future fleet upgrades. Articulated cars, already adopted in cities like Berlin, Paris, and Toronto, have no doors between cars, allowing unrestricted flow throughout the length of the train that could increase capacity by 8 percent to 10 percent. Adam Lisberg, the authority's chief spokesman, says that increased capacity could also improve 'dwell time' — the period during which a train is stopped in a station, often because of overcrowding — and allow more trains to run. 'We're one of the largest systems in the world that doesn't do it,' says Richard Barone, the director of transportation programs at the Regional Plan Association. 'Our trains don't function right now to allow people to circulate.' Articulation also has the benefit of making empty trains feel safer. By allowing passengers the ability to move between cars easily and to see passengers throughout the train, the isolation that can sometimes feel dangerous on a late-night subway is less of an issue, simply because the whole train is joined together like one huge car. But not everyone embraces the idea. Elizabeth Kubany who works in the Flatiron district, expressed a fondness for the current configuration, suggesting that the separated cars were more 'intimate' binding passenger to passenger in an increasingly antisocial age. Then she reconsidered. 'You don't really want to be intimate with people on the train.'"
The doors are there. The transit authority just doesn't allow people to use them because most people are too stupid to use them safely.
On Septa and Metro North you can move between cars while the train is stopped to facilitate boarding, and on Amtrak you can move between cars at will.
"Some of the best sex I've ever had was on the C line at night. That hobo watching us made it so hot."
Try to run an articulated car from Clark St to Chamber St. You'll find that NYC subway has some pretty wicked curves and grades (sometimes at the same time) which would tear apart trains like this.
If it cost the same it would be a no-brainer ... increased capacity for nothing. The key question is does it cost more, and if so is that the optimal way of increasing capacity for the money? If the same money would allow them to run an extra train each hour then that would be the best option.
I overheard a 20+ year career subway driver in Toronto talk about why he doesn't like the new trains. On weekends partiers often vomit in subway cars, and the smell used to be isolated to just the affected cars with the old train, but now the vomit rolls up and down the entire length of the train and the driver has to smell it for the entire duration of his/her shift. I can understand this concern and don't have a solution to offer, but personally I love the new trains. They have a subway map with lights showing which stations you've passed by, which one is next, where you're going, which side the door will open on, and all of the announcements seem to be pre recorded or computer generated. I don't have to struggle to understand what the foreign driver is saying. These trains are made by Bombadier, a Canadian company. I've seen these same trains in China (Bombadier). I wonder if NYC will get the same ones.
...then where will the hobos excrete in private?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
He should do what Berne Switzerland does (or did) - charge $300,000 just to move there.I don't remember if it only applied to foreigners or to everyone.
Any Swiss out there to confirm?
Most people - yes, even Wall Street - use public transit in NYC. The subway is way faster than a car. There is a reason that they are building a new 2nd Ave line, and it isn't for the poor people.
My issue with the trains is that we are in 2013 and they are still putting new cars out with conductors! Yes, a person paid (and paid more than a cop IIRC) to stand in a little booth and close the doors on the train. I won't even get into why they still have drivers, they can't even get rid of the conductor.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
He is such a douchebag. I love his line about school overcrouding: "it's a nice problem to have that our kids want to go to school".
http://gawker.com/michael-bloomberg-says-lack-of-affordable-housing-is-a-1448327223
Huh. Standard economic theory blames high prices on artificial shortages in housing due to rent control laws making it unappealing for investors to make new buildings. Hence only rich high-end housing, which pleb laws don't apply to, gets built. It's a problem with a known, but politically impossible solution.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
This is meant to be slashdot, FGS!
There's a hundred different parameters which need to be assessed, weighed and designed for.
Open carriages are good for increased passenger loads. They are bad for fire isolation and suppression. They are bad for flexibly disconnecting sections if vandalism or mechanical failure takes out one carriage. They are bad for insulation and keeping warm, but they are good for cooling and providing a fresh atmosphere....
Consider the issues and score them in a scientific way...
isn't the whole point of individual cars so that when one goes bad or needs maintenance, you just disconnect it from the rest and attach something else? I'm sure you can do the same with articulated, but it's probably a lot more of a hassle. That or if you can't and they're all attached for life (like an articulated bus), that would mean any failure along the 8 (I'm assuming it's 8 in nyc) would send the entire train to the maintenance yard.
No one would want to sit on the articulated section anyways. The suspension between the two and the floor moving near where you're sitting would probably be unnerving to some.
Please... move... into... the... cabin.
More than doors between cars, what NYC needs to bring itself into the modern age is automatic train control and platform doors. It would allow a whole host of benefits, such as less reliance on human drivers (controversial, I know), air conditioned platforms, increased reliability, increased frequency, etc.
When you come back from Asia or Europe and see the subway systems they have, and see what we have in New York, you actually get embarrassed, and wonder how we're still #1...
ps. oh, please do all that, plus grind the rails properly so that I don't have to go deaf when the cars go around any type of curve...
I wonder if there are any statistics for something like flu transmission on articulated subways vs closed cars.
... Which is the articulated train that we use is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket
It's got more going for it than just being articulated. There are electronic signs that allow people not familiar with the subway system in Toronto to navigate the system better. Plus it's easier for those who have mobility issues.
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
These kinds of train are much better on the whole (Transport For London had the London Overground fitted with these) however one problem is beggars can now do the length of the train with ease. However, this is a minor issue and the benefits of the trains far outway it.
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
Don't let a man do a machines job.
...already articulated, they just don't have a flexible enclosure built around the articulation point.
I don't think that having the coupling area enclosed will make the entire train any less articulated than it is now.
Feeling defensive today?
If the story doesn't interest you, don't read it. Whining doesn't help.
They have conductors so people won't get stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths.
They could make the doors automatic, and re-open when someone or one of their body parts is in the way of a door closing, which they do now, but without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station. There will always be that one last person trying to get in.
They have conductors so people won't get stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths.
Were you in prison for 50 years or something? This is a solved problem.
They could make the doors automatic, and re-open when someone or one of their body parts is in the way of a door closing, which they do now, but without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station.
Why is this problem unique to NYC?
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I'd call Bloomberg a piece of shit, but I realized that shit is useful. Shit creates jobs. Shit can be used in fecal transplants to cure diseases or to diagnose someone's health. It would be in insult to shit to compare it to Bloomberg (except for his shit which is probably the most useful part of him--he sells it to 1%ers who like to rub in on their noses).
Oh, in other news, Bloomberg is planning to arrest Banksy.
Several lines already use them, M1, M4 and M14 at least, probably more. They work fine and are much more pleasant than seperated cars.
Yes some of the tube lines in London (metropolitan and circle) have these now much nicer than the older stock and the new trams in cities like Nottingham have have this as well.
without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station. There will always be that one last person trying to get in.
In London they have someone standing on the platform to do that (shout at people). They are in a much better position: they can see the whole train, and can walk along the platform if necessary.
Also, they're only at busier stations, and only when it's busy.
This isn't a (huge) problem in most other subway systems I've used. Never been to NY tough, so maybe people are completely different there - but I would suspect not.
Having frequent departures also helps this - missing a train isn't a big deal if there is another one comming in ~5 minutes or so, worse if you have to wait 15 or more.
It's those socialist liberal Democrats running up the deficit again!
... why is this on /., again? Sorry, but just do not think this news story is worth of a slashdot post. Is it now "News for nerds, stuff that matters to New Yorkers only"?
The subway operators in Berlin have decided for these long trains beacuse the manual labour and logistics needed to extend or shorten trains during the day is more expensive than just letting them roll.
"Is it friday yet?"
The whole NYC metro system is something I really cannot understand about the US. I haven't visited the whole world but NY city metro is by far the worst I have been, starting with the dirty station that includes God knows how many rats and the old equipment. Hell there are places in Latin America that have better stuff. Sure it has a lot of coverage and works 24/7 but either everybody else is doing something extraordinary or I don't know what's the deal.
So now seeing this whole 'debate' about whether to use articulated cars is like watching a discussion about the merits of the wheel to improve transportation. They really need to invest heavily into the system, especially in a city like NY where millions depend on the subway as their primary mean of transportation.
She actually neared a valid point without ever hitting on it. Anyone who's ridden the NYC subway for any length of time has come upon the empty, "smelly-guy" car - someone who's stench is so overpowering it clears out the car. If there's no barrier between cars, you've now made the whole train stink like ass instead of just one car.
...Never been to NY tough, so maybe people are completely different there...
I was born and raised in NY, so I can tell you; if you come to NY, you had *better* come tough.
This is all bullshit. The one reason to articulated bogies, which is all we're talking about, is that you can cram more seats on each car, which means saving money. Please ignore the weird PR spin.
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
Have you ever been on a NY subway in rush hour?
If not (which it seems) they you have no idea what you're talking about.
However, this is a minor issue and the benefits of the trains far outway it.
You should be ashamed to post on a nerd site, Ian. Get your GED.
Yes...we have nonarticulated cars on the Denver Light Rail, and it's common to have standing room only on one car and plenty of seating on the next.
(Semiarticulated, actually, because each car bends in the middle.)
UNIONS make it too expensive to upgrade most public transportation systems in the US!
BART workers are on strike now. they make about $90,000 each and are upset because they will incur an additional $90 per month in benefit costs under Obamacare.
BART Wages:
https://github.com/enjalot/bart/blob/master/data/bart-comp-all.csv
Nein! They are all in a meeting. Until Wednesday. They can not be disturbed.
rewriting history since 2109
I lived there for 5 years, and like most of NYC I took the subway. The conductor has no authority whatsoever, and simply throws the switch and maybe uselessly yells or makes a don't hold the doors announcement.
Why do you think that NYC cannot do what other transit agencies all over the world can do? Singapore is 100% automated (driver and doors) on their newer MRT lines. They even have 2 sets of doors in some of the stations.
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Yes, I would agree that unions are an impediment to automation upgrades. Capital budgets are also weird, with money often being directed by politicians and not managers. So the MTA might get money for new cars or even an additional line, but no money that can be used to improve signalling (or clean the stations... yuck!).
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Have gnu, will travel.
They've been 'building' the 2nd ave subway since 1962. 1957 really if you look at the original plans. It's like the flyover of 495 into the midtown tunnel which has been under 'construction and repairs' since 1966 and all they've managed to do so far is deploy road cones.
I guess no one remembers the debacle of the replacement IRT trains in the early 1980's when they contracted it to a Japanese firm and DAY ONE they discovered that Japanese seats are too narrow for big fat American asses and they were taken out of service for 2 years to replace the seats.
I guess no one remembers the Great 7 Train Improvement project which took the express line out of service for 7 years.
I guess no one remembers the articulated bus experiment where all these European articulated buses were bought to 'improve' things and within a year the few that hadn't completely broken down were taken out of service because it was too expensive to maintain them.
I guess no one remembers that IND and IRT trains are fundamentally different because IRT trains run in tunnels that are too narrow for cars in the rest of the system. This is why everything has to be done in parallel, duplicated.
While they do have high salaries, it looks like the drivers and agents make around 60k. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/10/09/phil-matier-plenty-willing-to-work-for-current-bart-wages/
No more dramatic subway car to subway car chases with that harrowing split second to open each door; not knowing if it'll be locked or if the international assassin will catch up to our hero before he gets through. No more gratuitous, tortured expressions as Julia Roberts struggles with the unfamilar latches. A subway chase through articulated joints will be like watching 2 guys running through an alley. Boring!
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Hint: 'you' are not #1 ;)
Keep reading to find the real salaries... $60,000 base is sometimes $200,000
Finding any excuse to believe they have the best version of x. No, the world surely could not have improved and advanced beyond anything the USA has developed - it must simply be bad in some other way. Good luck with that, fools.
Those tough talking weenies are always so amusing. "My neighborhood is the baddest in the world" but they've never been anywhere to compare it to.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
In other other news, Bloomberg, who's worth over $30 billion, just received a $1 million prize for being an outstanding philanthropist.
Yes, I do! I find it quite amusing that America was schooled by Putin on exceptionalism.
For a country one who claims to boast its own national exceptionalism and moral superiority. Yet, forgets to mention they are the holders of the largest national debt known to man. If you ask me. I find this fact hardly exceptional or superior ... heck it's not even moral!
It fits my definition of exceptional.
Do you mean New York subway trains will be able to talk clearly and understandably?
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
It was due to an update a few years back which in particular meant removing the obnoxious screeching breaks. People protested the much superior rubber wheel technology that was supposed to replace them and the old technology stayed.
If everyone in a car gets off at one stop...you probably should not enter unless you suffer from (or, in this case, are blessed by) anosmia.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
NYC is the US's Moscow. You need to earn seven digits a year if you don't want to sleep five roomies to a 500 square foot efficiency. There are people who pay $1000/month for a door over a closet to sleep, no bathroom, nothing else.
As for tough neighborhoods, I'll be happy to introduce people who think they are "New York tough" to some of my acquaintances from other countries who have endured real hardship and brutality, not something from "West Side Story." Riker's is nasty, but compare that to jails south of the US border, and one would consider that place palatial afterwards.
Singapore now has 2 sets of doors on "all" the stations. Every station has a door on the platform itself as well as a second set on the train it self. This was done due to rush hour traffic which increased the risk of people falling on to the tracks.
It has the side effect (primary effect?) of letting them air-condition the stations. Very nice.
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"there's nothing on earth Like a genuine, Bona fide, Electrified, Six-car Monorail"
Everybody is having this "feature" for years - USA sells it as a big win.
WOW. I can't believe it.
Why is this good? You can simply enter a car whereever you want and people will balance themselves throughout the full length of the car.
Instant win!
It was a light comment, intended to be amusing. However, I was raised in NY, and *have* lived in lots of places. None tougher than NY, in the sense of difficult, i.e. expensive, large, etc., although also in physically intimidating.
Boston has its negatives, and Philly's up there, but neither one of them is quite as challenging to live in as NY.
Or just another case for Slashdot to compare the US to those more forward thinking awesome European cities?
You know, if you click on the "articulated cars" Wikipedia link above, one of the images visible from the top of the page is one of similar cars in Portland, Oregon. I've ridden them, and they're pretty neat the first few times when one takes a turn. Plenty of US cities already have them, but they're an interesting solution to an old design issue, and it's always nice to highlight good engineering.
It's a better read anyway than someone whining about news they don't like appealing to other nerds while showing off a massive inferiority complex about America.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
This is a solved problem.
Is it? Is it a solved problem like, a human is a part of the solution, or is there some magical device that can determine your backpack straps (with the little notch at the end) haven't been caught in the doorway on your way out?
As recently as last year, I've seen video footage of people getting dragged by trains (in other systems, not NYC). You really think it would work on a system as busy as NYC? This is the system where some stations are so packed during rush hour that there are people standing from the wall to where their toes are at the edge of the platform. Imagine one person dragging all those other people...
In fact, during rush hour, there's additional transit workers standing at either end of the platforms just to make sure everybody's all the way in and no straps are hanging loosely out.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
A double-door system such as in Singapore would seem to address your concern.
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Yes, because being more intimate with fellow passengers on a MTA train in NYC is high on my list of "wants"...
They have this in NYC in rush hour too, again at busier stations (which are basically all of the 4-track, express stations). But try doing this on the 4/5/6 at Union Sq. and you'll have another thing coming. Just to give you a picture, the station's curve is so sharp that there are extending floors along certain points of the platform that roll out to meet the train after it's stopped, and then roll back before the train can leave.
Oh, and if you do something for one line, you have to do it for every other line, because every line runs on the same ROW as at least one other line for some time, and then may split and possibly meet yet another line. Only the 7 is not connected to the rest of the system in this manner (there is one crossover that can only ever be used for maintenance purposes), and the L has the next fewest such points. This is primarily why experimental things are done on the L first (the 7 is elevated and has this complex express-local switching BS while the L is straightforward).
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
FWIW, Vancouver's "Skytrain" has neither drivers nor conductors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29
The London Underground has "dumb" automatic doors- that is, they slam close with considerable force and pay no attention to whether there are any limbs trapped in them. There are no conductors and rarely staff on the platform. Nobody ever seems to get dragged to their death. I think the doors have an "emergency release" on them for "being dragged to death" situations, but I'm not actually sure...
People are grown ups. I'm sure the inhabitants of New York, of all places, don't need to be treated like babies.
Have you studied the NYC subway system at all? Platform doors only work if there's one train of one type running on that line. NYC subway doesn't just have multiple lines all running on the same ROW, there are something like up to five different models of rolling stock running on each system that can and often do run on that particular track. The oldest cars dates from the 70's. And in case you didn't know, the doors do not line up between train models. Hell, some configurations run 11 cars while others run 10. And we're still talking about the same line here.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Then again, it introduces other problems.
Technically, there is a redundancy in the jobs of the train operator and the conductor. The operator can manage the doors just as capably as the conductor, especially when the station has a CCTV to monitor each car from the outside. In fact, the operator often helps out during rush hour.
The conductor, however, has two much more subtle roles:
1) The conductor manages the train while it's operating. The train operator can make announcements and fiddle with other things while the train is stopped at a station. the train operator should not be making announcements while simultaneously operating the train. Nor should the train operator be fooling around with the automated announcements or whatnot. You would want your train operator to be focused on operating the train too, no?
2) The conductor handles queries from passengers. The conductor is the public-facing individual of the train crew. The conductor handles everything from puzzled tourists (which there are a lot of) to sick passengers to any crime (for which they can only radio in). While the operator can do this duty too, the operator sits at the front of the train, which is fairly difficult to reach from the other end. Yes, the back of the train has significantly degraded service even with two crew members, but it's not as bad as having to run to the front for anything.
You can argue to remove the operator for automated trains (CBTB). There are downsides to this too, but not nearly as much as the conductor.
You claimed to have lived here for 5 years, but it's obvious your knowledge of the subway system is superficial. Basically, more than a tourist, less than a local (not a native, just a local), i.e. in that gray area where you're competent enough to do something but not enough to know what it is you're doing. I say you probably haven't ridden in more than five lines in the entire time you're here, one of which is your commute, and none of it involves waiting for a train in Midtown during rush hour. If you actually were familiar with the subway system, you'd know that the conductor is the one position that's not expendable, and that platform doors are not possible in most if not all of the system.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Thank you. That was awesome.
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Obviously they need to be replaced with superconductors!
This is exactly why NYC ordered individual cars last time around. They wanted to be able to scavange good cars into a train if maintenance fell behind. They had been forced to do so in the 1970's and 1980's. In practice they have married sets of cars together and maintain them as a set.
Articulated cars were run on the NYC subway from 1925 to 1965, google D-type Triplex, but each car needs to be shorter. I don't think anyone knows what the impact of running articulated cars again would be. It is worth an engineering study.
So how long does the city get out of it's trains? 30-40 years? Standardize on a door pitch and move on with life. In 30 years maybe they can catch up with Singapore - shorter if they use their current running stock as a template. It's amazing how a bunch of smart people can be so stupid when they all get together and pursue multiple conflicting interests.
The crazy thing is that the city actually had an unbelievably complex, completely automated line way back, but it caught fire and that was the end of it.
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1) The conductor manages the train while it's operating. The train operator can make announcements and fiddle with other things while the train is stopped at a station. the train operator should not be making announcements while simultaneously operating the train. Nor should the train operator be fooling around with the automated announcements or whatnot. You would want your train operator to be focused on operating the train too, no?
First of all, there shouldn't be a train operator, either. But, this being NYC with a strong MTU and an inability to maintain - let alone upgrade - infrastructure, the best I can hope for is a mastery of door closing. Announcements on the newer trains are automated (e.g. the "Disney" 4-5-6 trains). Other announcements (usually useless), like "the train is stopped waiting on traffic ahead" can happen when, well, the train is stopped. If the driver gets distracted, then the train is stopped and no harm comes.
2) The conductor handles queries from passengers. The conductor is the public-facing individual of the train crew. The conductor handles everything from puzzled tourists (which there are a lot of) to sick passengers to any crime (for which they can only radio in). While the operator can do this duty too, the operator sits at the front of the train, which is fairly difficult to reach from the other end. Yes, the back of the train has significantly degraded service even with two crew members, but it's not as bad as having to run to the front for anything.
For what they pay those conductors, you can put a cop on every single train.
I say you probably haven't ridden in more than five lines in the entire time you're here, one of which is your commute, and none of it involves waiting for a train in Midtown during rush hour.
I'd suggest the opposite is true of you - you seem to have little experience outside of NYC, where subway conductors are pretty much unheard of. I rode enough to see the conductors as useless given modern technology. I was certainly transient, but I spent a fair amount of time on the train and buses. We sold our cars before we moved there. My experience with the outer boroughs was limited to mostly weekend trips, but I definitely had enough quality time with the Manhattan rush hour.
I was offering up the platform door as one solution, but it is hardly the only one. Besides NYC and Toronto, are there any conductors left in the world on subway trains? This strongly suggests that they are unnecessary. I don't pretend to be an expert on subway systems, but conductors seem to be anachronistic.
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The doors on the London Underground do have sensors, they clamp down hard on anything in their way but if they can't close completely then automated systems stop the train from moving off and after a few seconds the doors reopen.
I assume they clamp down on the hapless passenger for a few seconds to try and discourage them from blocking the doors again in the future!
On the London Underground the job of telling passengers who block the doors off was delegated to the driver years ago.
Beyond all the rest of it, what kind of person sits around and thinks "the thing that really bugs me is that this guy has a job"?
Please get a job that isn't bitching about other people who have found a way to make a decent wage in this world.
I'm a vehicle engineer that has worked on NYC-subway, MTA, every other east coast agency and a few of the west coast.
There is zero technical reason for the operatoring engineer in NYC... It's purely a combination of union involvement and 'feel goods'.
Onboard crew are mostly useless and overpaid but, on a system this extensive, they are necessary for those rare events. That said, we'd get more bang for the buck by replacing the conductors with cops who knew wheeee the emergency dump valves / stops were. The rest of the conductors tasks are better handled off the train by station agents, and on the train by automated announcements.
Personally, what got me thinking about it was when they went on strike and left all of us carless residents to our own devices. When they justified their job as being a warm body on the train that can answer questions and prevent crime, I nearly flipped because they make more than cops, who would be better suited to both tasks and who would be more accessible.
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Have you considered the expense to the economy of a 15-minute NYC subway delay during rush hour? If a person can help any one of the bazillion little situations that arise, then the numbers out of the red pretty quickly.
toresbe
All I can say is that I can only find one other transit agency in the world with conductors on their subways, and that is Toronto. NYC is not the only busy transit system in the world, even if it is the busiest in the US.
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Guess what: it's not all about you. This treatment of public employees really angers me, and it happens whenever public servants decide enough is enough. Do you think if you were working a job to be able to pay your bills, you'd be interested in hearing "shut up and get back to work, I have stuff to do?" or be thinking "I know I have to feed my family, but how will Steve get to work?! Nevermind!"
How this works with police officers and other essential folks is that there are rules to protect the employees because they, basically, can't walk off the job because they serve the public good. Same sometimes with transit workers. If you want people to be at work no matter what, there has to be something else that takes the place of the right to strike.
I don't know about your salary numbers and don't have the time to go into them, but they almost always take into account people who've been working there a very long time, and some that have specialized skills. I see teachers salary numbers and they almost never reflect the reality.
The subway is not a jobs program. If positions are unnecessary, the public should not be burdened with the cost.
This treatment of public employees really angers me
In NY State, transit workers are not allowed to strike. They are paid far above market wages, so I think that is a reasonable compromise and something to consider when you work there. You are right, it's not about me - it's about the millions of people the few transit workers and terrible MTA management put in the position that they did. It's worth noting that the poor were disproportionately affected. During the strike, Manhattanites could walk, bike, or car pool easily enough. Most of the working poor live in the outer boroughs, and they were in a much worse spot. Me? I fired up my laptop and telecommuted - so yeah, it wasn't about me.
I don't know about your salary numbers and don't have the time to go into them,
I suspect you take the 5 whole minutes it takes to Google and compare the average conductor salary (over $60,000) to the average police officer salary (just under $60,000). Considering that you could put rookies on the trains at a whopping $37k each, you could actually save money by ensuring public safety with a cop on every single train. This is only salary - I concede that I did not calculate benefits.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Most people - yes, even Wall Street - use public transit in NYC. The subway is way faster than a car. There is a reason that they are building a new 2nd Ave line, and it isn't for the poor people.
Not entirely for the poor people, but it's not like SAS Phase 2 goes through East Harlem or anything.
My issue with the trains is that we are in 2013 and they are still putting new cars out with conductors! Yes, a person paid (and paid more than a cop IIRC) to stand in a little booth and close the doors on the train. I won't even get into why they still have drivers, they can't even get rid of the conductor.
Yeah, it's almost as if there were a crazy transit workers union that keeps on winning arbitration cases to make it impossible to get old and deprecated work rules removed.
The general public thinks public servants are really important when they're "not doing their job," but look for their support on any given day when they're just being treated unfairly and it's a big fuck you. Well, fuck you all back. How you treat the people that "work for you" says a lot about you.
Googling for 5 whole minutes is not research.
How you treat the people that "work for you" says a lot about you.
You sound like you have an entitlement issue. I cannot help you with that.
Googling for 5 whole minutes is not research.
No, but it would confirm my numbers.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Yeah, it's almost as if there were a crazy transit workers union that keeps on winning arbitration cases to make it impossible to get old and deprecated work rules removed.
Yes, the joys of efficiency.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
One thing you haven't mentioned is that the IRT and second-system tracks are different grade tracks and cannot be shared even in principle unless the entire system were reconstructed (that is, all the tracks were relaid for one half or the other). Thus the transition from doing something (for instance the countdown clocks) on the IRT system and then doing it for the entire rest of the second system, is quite extensive.
Another underestmation of the importance of capital construction as a maintenance cost....
So publically employed transit workers should have the right to determine what services are necessary and viable to the running of a transit operation? In new york, that has been true for the last twenty years, and the result is that the union is now out of control and functioning as just another a money sieve for a taxpayer funded agency that desperately needs money, despite the state being broke and cutting its funding over and over that is specifically earmarked for the MTA.
This would be a reasonable point, if indeed the economy were functioning in a rational way. In a rational world, this economy would be taxed in such a way that sustainable maintenance and capital construction of the MTA could function. As this has not been the case for many, many years, your point about the economic expense of a 15 minute delay on the subway -- which is relatively minor considering the low duration of the delay -- becomes warped out of context.
Who plans to advocate for transit workers if not their union (that is made up of transit workers, by the way, not a separate entity)? Certainly not you.
It's NYC - the entire place stinks like ass.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.