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NSA Monitored Calls of 35 World Leaders
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Guardian reports that the NSA monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders after being given the numbers by an official in another U.S. government department. According to a classified document provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden, the NSA encourages senior officials in its 'customer' departments, such the White House, State and the Pentagon, to share their 'Rolodexes' so the agency can add the phone numbers of leading foreign politicians to their surveillance systems. The NSA memo dated October 2006 that was obtained by the Guardian suggests that such surveillance was not isolated, as the agency routinely monitors the phone numbers of world leaders – and even asks for the assistance of other U.S. officials to do so. However, the memo acknowledges that eavesdropping on the numbers had produced 'little reportable intelligence.' At the daily briefing on Thursday, White House press secretary Jay Carney again refused to answer repeated questions about whether the U.S. had spied on German Chancellor Angela Merkel's calls in the past."
NSA ?
There are already on the line.
Makes you wonder which country is the real threat in this world.
Summation 2
the voters are not to blame, they have been deceived and lied to, and besides that dont you think those elections are rigged?
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Guess what, the U.S. has spy agencies and their job is to spy. It just confirms they're doing an effective job, which is rare in government.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me... fool me for decades on end - WTF are we boiling frogs here!!??
The election was last month. She doesn't have to worry about getting reelected for several years.
Bullshit. China, russia, and france have all recently been busted spying on the U.S.
You must have missed this story then: German Federal Police Helicopter Circles US Consulate - right before the election. What a publicity stunt, but the Germans fell for it obviously...
That is their job after all. If this surprises you, you're a moron.
They aren't supposed to spy on their OWN citizens, but the very definition of their job is to spy on important people in other countries.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
This is the NSA fufilling its role.. full stop. If you're not a US citizen and you're doing something of interests to our intelligence services you should be targeted.
If you're a citizen of an Echelon country, you have no room to talk because your nation is a partner. (To be honest, I thought Echelon was Anglosphere only, but there's the Netherlands in the fray.. wow. )
And do not for a second act as though other nations don't do this. You can start with Frenchelon. And to those who bleat about economic and industrial espionage, the French have been known for this since the seventies.
Everybody knows the U.S. intelligence community is paranoid as hell, and always listening. If not the NSA, then maybe the CIA, FBI, or any of the dozens of other intelligence agencies in the U.S.
None of these world leaders are shocked or surprised.
No, this is pretty much normal spying. If you had a spy agency and didn't monitor other nations for strategic advantage, you'd wonder what the hell they were doing. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to be opposed, because moral objections are best objections, just that pretending it's bad spycraft is silly.
The NSA is suppose to spy on other countries.
I'd prefer it if they spied on countries that are actively hostile towards us, if they're going to spy at all. No, spying to collect evidence is not okay (or else spying on citizens would also be okay).
This apologist nonsense is not surprising, but it is an absolute eyesore.
Ignorance is a choice
Here in the US countries like France are heavily restricted from operating and managing US entities that have ties to US security and law enforcement operations. (Bio-metrics, AFIS, Facial Recognition, Crypto, Official Identity and Credential Solutions, etc.) Because they are foreign? No. Because they have been caught spying on the US.
The only different here is the US isn't flopping over and whining like a European Soccer player about a little spying.
So in that respect, it was just like the same leaders' public speeches.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
He did it all to himself.
"The NSA memo dated October 2006"
Seems to me it is just another case of Obama getting blamed for the actions of the Bush Administration.
>> NSA monitored the phone conversations of 35 world leaders
And nothing of value was gained.
Only 35? Im surprised that out of the 196-ish countries in the world, only 34 of them are considered as bad or worse than Germany.
Where are their spies? Its as if they just let their top political leaders stumble around the world stage as bait for the NSA. Congrats on the election win, here our tested 'safe' phone, fax machine. Use it a lot.
A vast pile of documents are then sent.
In some safe house an inner group of political leaders meet as another group of political suits 'act' on the world stage with their leaky phones.
Giving the NSA and US just what it wants/expects to hear?
All the same countries faced the same intercept threats from communists, fascism, their own press and political rivals yet show zero skill when using the US global telco networks?
Are all the signals intelligence staff of 35 nations really more loyal to the USA than their own leadership?
Or are we seeing 35 nations playing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Quicksilver_(WWII) with a US gov so entranced with its own intercept skills? With little to no human spies left for "reality" what is the US really gathering other than what 35 govs select to talk about on phones they know are junk.....
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Why are people acting surprised or offended by this? This is what alphabet soup agencies do! Don't tell me that other governments agencies aren't doing the same thing. Intelligence agencies spy on everyone friend or foe. It's their job. The only real reason for shock about this is that they got *caught*.
Have you been paying attention to the news?
The EU parliament voted to suspend SWIFT, commission will ignore them of course ... but it will come up for renewal in 2015 and they need parliament then. A law with absolutely huge penalties (a percentage points of annual company revenue) on sharing data with foreign intelligence has been passed (slightly toothless at the moment due to safe harbour agreements, but at this point I doubt those agreements will last long).
No, this is pretty much normal spying.
Heh, I bet you when they report Germany spied on Obama's phone, US will order a nuclear strike in a show of outrage. It's only "normal" spying because we do it and not them.
Yeah, riiiight.. we'd order a nuclear strike. Cause we throw nukes around like candy. Grow up.
What makes you think we have any power to do anything? Much as I hate Russel Brand, he was interviewed last night and pretty much told us how it was. That voting changes nothing as you vote for corporate stooges who act in their own interests. Which is why he doesn't vote.
You never know when a world leader goes Al Qaeda suicide bomber all of a sudden, unless you listen it her calls. I'm sure Angela Merkel wears a Burqa secretly when alone at home.
nm, just seems an appropriate tag for a Bush Era memo.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Countries spy on each other all the time. Even allies. It has ever been thus, for centuries even. Heck, when I had a summer job at the DoD, we were sternly warned that spies can come from any country, and were provided a list of the current "hot spots." More than a couple close allies were up there in the rankings.
From my perspective, Edward Snowden would have been a whistle-blowing hero if he restricted his disclosures to borderline-illegal domestic spying. But apparently he's done a document dump of every electronic intelligence program he could get his hands on... that ain't whistleblowing, that's espionage. If the US ever gets his mitts on him, he'll almost surely never leave prison, and rightly so. Why did he EVER take a job with the NSA if he thought all forms of electronic intelligence were bad and worthy of spilling the details about to the whole world?
The NSA gets huge volumes of data from the EU free of charge ... companies get a carte blanche to share data with the NSA by the EU. They are jeopardizing all of that by getting caught like this ...
Sure there was. It has embarrased the Obama administration, and destroyed his credibility with American allies.
No, no, no, no and no.
This is all just a bunch of political bullshit people. There are a wide variety of world leaders being monitored by a wide variety of governments, and the politicians and world leaders are all perfectly aware of this fact.
All these stories are, is various politicians jumping on various iterations of the NSA story for their own political purposes. They are playing off anti-US sentiment among their populaces to further their own agendas. Which is fine, that's how politics works, but stop acting like this is something unique to the US because it's not.
Other people might be easily manipulated, overly emotional idiots, that doesn't mean you have to be one as well.
Got to love it when republicans make fools of themselves
> "eavesdropping on the numbers had produced 'little reportable intelligence."
Of terrorism, of course not. But what's to stop US factions from reporting conversations to favored parties in those countries, of their opposition's activities?
What's to stop them from doing the same thing in this country? "You're supppsed to get a warrant" is like telling a kid "you're supposed to ask me before sneaking a cookie. I'm going to the store now bye."
With little to no technological barriers and hundreds of agents with fingertip access, it is almost certainly happening here already -- not just spying on girlfriends. Yet these same people tell you not to worry -- while with the other side of their mouth say you need donation restrictions to stop just the appearance of corruption, mch less actual corruption.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Did Obama do anything to stop the spying after taking office?
Well, then isn't Obama just as guilty as Bush on this issue?
Can you please spy on my government and tell me what the hell they're up to these days? I have no clue, and they're certainly not telling.
Thanks,
An American
And you missed his point completely...
they've been rigged for decades, every one of em, since JFK was assassinated, starting with LBJ there has not been a clean and honest election, they've all been rigged
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I have a word for you, that word is "media". That is why it has been so easy to deceive people, and why I agree with FudRucker that it's not the people's fault. Journalists are supposed to be the biggest check against abuse. While politicians were being bought by a select few with too much money, the media was also being taken over by the same group, as was the eduction system.
If people are deprived of information and intentionally fed false information it should not be a surprise that they are misled. It at least warrants a small amount of sympathy.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
It has embarrased the Obama administration, and destroyed his credibility with American allies.
I am afraid that much more had been destroyed than Obama's personal reputation.
I am afraid that the reputation of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA had been severely destroyed because of what Obama administration has done.
First, it was Brazil. Then, France. Followed by Mexico, and then Germany.
And when Angela Merkel angrily called up Obama regarding matter, you know what Obama did ?
THAT GUY DENIED EVERYTHING !!
Obama was caught with his hands in the cookie jar and yet he acted just like a little kid telling bold face lies.
As an American, I rather my president comes clean, admitting his faults, remedy the mistakes, than telling seriously inane bold face lies.
Obama seemed to forget that he is THE POTUS - and as the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, his category denial has shamed the nation of the United States of America.
I am sure, by now, no government in the world would ever trust the President of the United States, nor the nation of the United States of America.
In other words, Obama has shamed all of us, the Americans !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
... because they could.
As opposed to all other intelligence/counter-intelligence agencies in the world, who do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reason.
I think the reason they got "little reportable intelligence" is because when you are in a position like that (president of a country, foreign dignitary, etc) , you at the very least _assume_ your allies will try to listen to your conversations.
At this level "reportable intelligence" conversations are not carried over public/listed phone lines, but on non-public lines, where you can set up privacy and security checks, encryption and authentication protocols and so on (i.e. send a USB stick by a courrier you trust or something).
Tie two birds together: although they have four wings, they cannot fly. (The blind man)
Soo... there has been a vote to suspend Swift data sharing that will be ignored anyway + leave plenty of time to "sway" parliament vote by 2015 when it comes up for review. By then the people would have forgotten anyway and public outrage will be even more fringe than it already is.
You mention a toothless sharing data law (link?), but as we see from todays news there is nobody in goverment willing to enforce it - it takes a bunch of law students to even get some kind of acknowledgment of the problem.
If that is the best examples we have of world leaders are falling over themselves to protect the national interests of their citizens and private companies against mass spying, then my original observation still stands. Most (affected) world leaders seem to be Ok with it all/do not work for their citizens or private home grown companies.
Where are all the nationalistic flag waving types now on this issue - all silent...
No, he quite distinctly had 2 points.
1. Hypocrisy
2. Free-slinging of nukes as a foreign policy.
#2 is hyperbole, but there's nothing wrong with identifying hyperbole and asking for a more restrained perspective.
The U.S. spies on other countries? SHOCKING!!!
It depends on if he knew about it. If he did then he's obviosly responsible. If he didn't then that's of course also bad. Either way is not good for him.
Seems to me it is just another case of Obama getting blamed for the actions of the Bush Administration
Seems to me that you liberals can't get pass the blame game, can you ?
Yes, it was that idiot Bush who started the ball rolling.
But Obama had SIX MOTHER-FUCKING LONG YEARS to stop the program.
Did Obama stop the eavesdropping program ?
Did he ????
Now that he has been caught with his hands in the cookie jar Obama DENIED EVERYTHING.
This is not what a President should do.
A President is not a commoner.
A President (even for a teeny tiny country) should be MAN ENOUGH to admit his guilt.
But did Obama admit his guilt ?
Why not ?
Why is Obama still insist of telling BOLD FACE LIES, even in a time like this ???
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama
And the french DSGE has been doing Economic INtelligence (Industrial secrets) for decades. For example in 1991 they were caught bugging all the seats in Air France jets.
Mon Du, Gambling at Ricks!
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
"Only 35? Im surprised that out of the 196-ish [about.com] countries in the world, only 34 of them are considered as bad or worse than Germany [bbc.co.uk]."
They should be glad that they have friends that patiently listen to them, it's what friends do.
Especially friends who still have their nukes in storage at your place.
I agree with you that mass media is hugely to blame but it is catch-22/chicken and the egg problem - if the politicians we voted for are willing to relax media laws, allow entertainment to be marketed as news, and worst of all not allow independent journalists to interview political candidates outside of marketing scripted election "rallies" - then we get what we voted for. Media just helps solidify power into the same old hands, only voting differently can ever hope to change that (discounting any type of revolution, obviously).
so how do they want to defend that it is to foil terrorists attack??
Famous last words:"but...."
"Sure they make a little public stink about it and feign outrage to get re-elected (yes that means you, Merkel), "
She got re-elected a couple of days ago.
... should you eat shit as well ?
This is all just a bunch of political bullshit people. There are a wide variety of world leaders being monitored by a wide variety of governments
I am getting VERY FUCKING TIRED of listening to this asinine excuse !
Just because the whole world is eating shit, would you eat shit too ?
The world's government may be tapping each others, but they are NOT caught in the action.
America, on the other hand, did.
Why can't Obama just admit what happened, and then proceed with action to remedy the problem, instead of issuing a CATEGORY DENIAL to everything ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Well technically that is what the CIA is for. NSA is just supposed to keep our military secret's secret.
In other words, Obama has shamed all of us, the Americans !!
Not to worry, US reputation had been plummeting for a while before Obama took office.
Besides, I think most international observers will recognize that the US govt does not represent its people. Which is a shame, of course, but also means that US citizens have some credit left whereas their government does not.
What's freaking me out, though, is there doesn't seem to be a bottom -- rock or otherwise.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
See above, Merkel feigned outrage to get re-elected.
Can you point to where Obama "DENIED EVERYTHING"?
Because I'd love to see that.
Also, scream for Bush to admit his guilt too. Unless you're, shall we say, slightly biased.
The REAL douchebag is Obama, definitely not Snowden.
We ought to be grateful to Edward Snowden in allowing us, the Americans, a chance to redeem ourselves.
The NSA, the PRISM PROGRAM, the TAPPING of foreign leaders, are way out of bound.
If not for Edward Snowden, more despicable schemes might commence, with even worse consequences to the Americans and the rest of the world.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I don't see it as a chicken/egg problem. I see it as a select group of people planning very well to take over. The corruption in the US has been at every level simultaneously. It took a lot of logistics and planning to do so, but it's been effective.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Besides, I think most international observers will recognize that the US govt does not represent its people.
I am an American staying outside America, and in my personal experience, most of the world people (non-Ameicans) do not seem to separate the American government from the people of the United States of America.
In other words, the world at large treats what the American government did as if it was done by the citizens of America.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
So if you think it is easier for a countries population to change corporate mass media rather than changing out the corrupt politicians, then I am all for the idea!
From http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/10/us-denies-tapping-merkel-mobile-phone-20131023185133142198.html ---
US President Barack Obama had assured German Chancellor Angela Merkel that the US is not monitoring her communications, according to the White House spokesman.
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24647268
The White House said President Obama had told Chancellor Merkel the US was not snooping on her communications.
"The United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor," White House spokesman Jay Carney said on Wednesday.
From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/merkel-phone-tapped_n_4150812.html
For its part, the White House denied that the U.S. is listening in on Merkel's phone calls now.
"The president assured the chancellor that the United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor," White House spokesman Jay Carney said. "The United States greatly values our close cooperation with Germany on a broad range of shared security challenges."
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Yes, you're free to object on moral grounds. I said that. I'm quite sure of it.
I stated that the corruption was thorough, which does not imply that we only need to clean out one area to fix things. All corruption is bad so we must clean it all.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
I'd say that Germany wanting their own internet now, joining the BRICS countries to do so is something of value.
It's time that the world realizes that internet is incompatible with having a bully with power over it.
just that pretending it's bad spycraft is silly.
Surely you mean tradecraft not spycraft :)
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
I am an American staying outside America, and in my personal experience, most of the world people (non-Ameicans) do not seem to separate the American government from the people of the United States of America.
In other words, the world at large treats what the American government did as if it was done by the citizens of America.
Well, I don't know where you are located, but in my limited surroundings (Netherlands) I think my statement is accurate.
it's changing all the time, of course. The US is a democratic republic so, as time goes on and administration after administration of both major parties get away with all kinds of wicked behaviour -- unpunished by the electorate -- maybe more and more outside observers may conclude that, well, maybe a majority of citizens do support this stuff after all.
But like I said, at least where I am, this doesn't seem to be the majority view. People I talk to seem to think the US citizens are basically just another bunch of victims of a once great nation now well on its way to becoming police state.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
America's first sport: shooting the messenger. With so much people asking for this I suppose that in american courts should be normal that witnesses are all sent to jail while criminals are getting paid and sent back to home.
No, not really. Tradecraft refers to the individual skills and best practices used in actual espionage. I was trying to use a term referring to the overall national strategy and chose a distinct one on purpose.
It depends on if he knew about it. If he did then he's obviosly responsible. If he didn't then that's of course also bad. Either way is not good for him.
If he knew, he's responsible. If he didn't, he's incompetent. Which do you prefer ?
Do you understand what broken trust is? ... means?
Do you understand that you will be the outcast bully because all you do is fling shit at your former friends and allies.
Do you understand that nobody wants to play with you any more because you turned into a arrogant paranoid dick?
Do you understand what do undo others
You lost all your morals and with it any claims to be of any value to the world.
Stop excusing your paranoid behavior and rediscover your former values. It will be long way of humility to rebuild any of the completely burned bridges.
Whom am I kidding? You never had any humility.
You just like a scared dog in a corner.
The sad part is you all brought it unto yourself.
That would be because every time a story appears, especially here, and someone says it's the fault of Republicans / Democrats / whoever, the usual response from a fellow citizen is "it's YOUR fault because you voted them in". As if that were true. Nevertheless, those outside don't know who to blame and the only viewpoint given is that it is the fault of the populace. Therefore that is what is thought.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
The nukes weren't even the deadliest bombings by the U.S. against Japan in WWII, much less including the blitz or the bombing of dresden. The tools used don't alter the morality of killing in war. Tokyo was worse, Dresden was worse, London was worse, some parts of southern Italy may have been worse.
It depends on if he knew about it. If he did then he's obviosly responsible. If he didn't then that's of course also bad. Either way is not good for him.
If he knows, he's responsible. If he doesn't, he's incompetent. Which do you prefer ?
Obama has shamed all of us, the Americans !!
I just can't figure out why you have a towering erection over it though.
Do you think Mitt Romney or John McCain would have stopped these programs? If so you I would say you are confused. Otherwise, what is your point?
Of course the NSA spied on foreign nations - it's a spy agency after all.
Allies have always spied on one another. In the past British intelligence has provided information to the FBI that it had gathered while spying on Americans.
The outrage was that the NSA was spying internally on Americans, since that should require a warrant.
Allies have always spied on one another. It's the way foreign intelligence works.
No, this is pretty much normal spying. If you had a spy agency and didn't monitor your enemies for strategic advantage, you'd wonder what the hell they were doing.
FTFY.
'Allies' is supposed to mean more than "we buy each others' stuff".
I liked George Bush. Both irresponsible and incompetent. But he had some personality.
The U.S. has treaties of some sort with essentially every nation on the planet, with the exception of those we pretend don't exist. You can't think of international diplomacy like high school, where you've got friends and you've got foes. All alliances between nations are ones of convenience, and not of any sort of emotional bond.
In fact, the U.S's "closest allies" are all nations we've waged war or proxy war against in the past: U.K., Canada, Germany, Japan. Realpolitik dominates international diplomacy(and its best buddy, espionage), and not without reason.
Mr. Unimportant from the land of Do Not Disturb. ... and that guy is hurt and offended.
***
Kidding aside, I can't imagine anyone in these governments being actually surprised -- what I figure is that the corporations NOT on the "Multinational Stranglehold of Governments" team is the group that is saying; "Hey, maybe we lost those trade negotiations while someone was spying on Al Qaeda, they were really doing corporate espionage."
And then the SHOCK once the American public realizes; wow, our military and intelligence companies don't work for our interests but for global oligarchies called Multinational Corporations. Wake up and smell the imported coffee people!
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
So they listen in on phone conversations of world leaders and find little intelligence there ;-)
Should we be shocked? I don't find that odd at all.
But what I don't get is why, if he has her private number, he didn't just do heavy breathing on the phone instead of the shoulder rub thing. Better to be creepy in private if you are President.
All the fervor over our spying on other nations is pure showmanship on the world leader’s part. There is absolutely nothing new about us spying on allies as well as enemies. Every leader shouting his outrage is a hypocrite since somewhere in our borders is someone that serves the same function reporting to him.
Every nation on this planet keeps tabs on every other nation to the extent of their abilities and every leader is fully aware of that fact. It is simply good manners in diplomatic circles to ignore that fact. This nonsense of blaming Obama or Bush for this is stupid in the extreme. If you want to place blame for spying on allies you might as well assign blame to Washington's administration because that is how far back it goes for our nation.
One of the most common mottoes in the intelligence community is "In God We Trust, Everyone Else We Monitor." One of the most common cards played in diplomacy is the sharing of collected intelligence with allies. It is a game played on a global scale with our various intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies as our front line players. We send intelligence officers into other nations and at the same time try to detect and neutralize the officers sent into ours. And often many of the officers we catch do not report to China or Pakistan or Iraq. They belong to England, France, Germany, or Japan, you know these guys, our allies.
The sad part is that you believe that. Intelligence gathering is a normal function of every government on this planet and that includes allies as well as enemies. It is simply not considered good manners in diplomatic circles to mention that fact.
In God We Trust, Everyone Else We Monitor is not just a humorous motto it is that fact of life for just about every nation you can name.
Really? So if your company SysAdmin is secretly spying on your email, it's the CEO's fault? Even though the SysAdmin is the one with the technical knowledge to both implement and hide the spying?
Not saying that Obama is innocent, but not knowing doesn't make him incompetent. It might just mean that the NSA are good at covering up.
If you want to fault him for something, fault him stepping on those who blow the whistle on these sort of activities, instead of commending them like he should.
Look to your own leaders. I guaranty that they are guilty of the exact same activities as you are so outraged that America is being criticized for.
No, this is pretty much normal spying. If you had a spy agency and didn't monitor other nations for strategic advantage, you'd wonder what the hell they were doing. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to be opposed, because moral objections are best objections, just that pretending it's bad spycraft is silly.
Breaking local and international laws is ok?
Breaking into networks, which US itself has declared to be an 'act of war', is ok with you?
Do you think people should be immune to rule of law just because they work in some government agency?
Rolling my eyes so hard here. I said it was okay to object. It's great. Please do so. Pretending it's not business as usual for decades now is what was silly.
Badness isn't the criteria. There's no point in spying on Robert Mugabe. You spy on the powerful and wealthy countries like Germany that you can profit by stealing info from.
This space intentionally left blank
And if that happened, I would expect pretty much the same thing. Obama would publicly make a press statement condemning it, make some silly demand for retribution (release some spy or whatnot) then get on with his business as usual.
Do you think Mitt Romney or John McCain would have stopped these programs?
You are asking something that NOBODY COULD ANSWER FOR CERTAIN, because IT NEVER HAPPEN.
What ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE is that Obama DID NOT stop the program despite given SIX MOTHERFUCKING LONG PRECIOUS YEARS of time to do so.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Whilst completely true and comparably despicable, they were not promising the most transparent administration ever in their electioneering.
These are possibly 35 allies where the US was given privileged access to telecommunications systems so they could investigate "terrorism".
And they abused that access.
The other 161 didn't give them that privileged access and so they weren't able to indulge in this wholesale phonetapping. They probably still tried but will only have got snippets of some conversations because tapping a mobile phone depend on either being close enough to the phone to intercept it's transmissions or tapping into the telecoms infrastructure after the radio phase.
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
So your argument is that two wrongs (even if one of them is hypothetical) do indeed make a right?
Yeah, just wait until the republicans get into office.
The point being ... THE REPUBLICANS HAD NOT BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE FOR THE PAST SIX MOTHERFUCKING LONG YEARS !!!
Would you guys please grow the FUCK up ??
It is as if Robber A had robbed the neighborhood 7-11 and killed the clerk.
Instead of punishing Robber A for his crime, you guys are saying "Yeah, wait till Robber B arrives" ...
Exactly how insane can you guys be ?
Why are you guys STILL trying so hard to defend the TOTALLY UNDEFENDABLE ???
Party politics can only go so far ...
What is truth, is truth.
Obama has fucked up.
No matter how you guys want to deny the whole thing, Obama still fucked up !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Many crimes and immoral acts happen every day; just because it's not a new freaky kind of crime doesn't mean we don't need to hear about it. I would like to know if the daily murders are migrating towards my neighborhood. Plus, while murder is OLD the victims and situation changes which each one - therefore it IS news.
Real reporters and editors make the decisions and have the resources to filter the data down to what people need to know - dumping data on them to filter is exactly what you should do. A free press has more RIGHT to cause collateral damage than the military does. Think about it. Don't let government scare you with scare tactics into gutting the press with government "security" censorship. Some people may die and that is the price for freedom! The gov would love to blame TRUTH as much as they can so you hate it as much as they do; simultaneously, they justify all their collateral damage as the price for freedom... WAKE UP
Countries spy but who, when, how, frequency, and acceptability differs. In a functional democracy, the public has a NEED TO KNOW because they are the oversight (whether or not they are inept is another matter.) For practical reasons, some of the information has to be temporarily hidden EXCEPT from the people's representatives who must always be kept in the loop. Problem is, they seem to quickly convert nearly every rep... perhaps it's because they tap all their phones? cough...J. Edgar Hoover.. cough cough
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"America is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" -MLK.
That was back during Vietnam, things are much worse today.
A little political backstabbing is normal but that does not mean it is ok. When you accept the secret norm so it can become flagrant, you merely raise the bar on what they can easily do or attempt in secret. At least they take a great deal of effort secretly breaking ideals, morals, and laws - why make it any easier for them?
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Snowden had a motive which wasn't filtered out in the hiring process because privatization has taken over and THAT is why this was so easily done. In the older days, somebody would have to work at the job for years to gain trust, be desensitized, get promoted and gradually be exposed to objectionable things instead of being horrified and overwhelmed with how bad things are. Moving government jobs to contractors is almost always foolish and expensive in the long term.
Going to military and security contractors is unbelievably idiotic... plus they then go to work for smaller players who could never afford to pay the TRUE COST for the tech, experience, and funding their mega-huge primary customer does at tax payer expense.
Corrupt and extremely idealistic politicians did this; the paranoid had little sway.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
I agree with most of the above except for one:
A President is not a commoner.
Yes. Yes, he is. He is a common citizen just like the rest of us, who has been temporarily granted the authority to help lead this country. He is, in the end, nothing more than the chief bureaucrat of this nation.
To presume anything else is a mistake. He is not a king. He is not a lord. When he leaves office, the country continues without him very well. He is a peon. That We-The-People have allowed this jumped-up-clerk (and that's the President in general, not Obama specifically) to increasing take on the trappings of a monarchy is a mistake that needs to be reversed. He's been given a mansion, a praetorian guard, secret police, walled him from the people he supposedly represenents and treated the officeholder as if he is some great prophet appointed by heaven to lead us to the holy land.
The president is none of that (or at least, should be none of that). He's just some chump we've saddled with the unpleasant duty of running the nation and I don't see why he should be afforded any more (or less) respect than the head of my local post office.
Can't we implement the NSA in Minecraft and be done with them...
Well, the choice available to the D brand of the Ruling Party was between Hillary Clinton (incompetent), John Edwards (sleazy ambulance-chaser who cheated on his terminally ill wife with a groupie), and Barack Obama (man, he sounded good giving speeches.) There was also this guy Dennis Kucinich who was a genuine Democrat, but he didn't look good on TV.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Oh, didn't you get the memo? Obama is exonerated for any crime if he can show that Bush did it first. If you disagree, you're a racist.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yes, it was that idiot Bush who started the ball rolling.
Not likely. The NSA has been around since the Eisenhower administration or thereabouts. I don't believe for a second that they were clean up until the second Bush administration.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
how does this matter. Only one of the three names mentioned here ran specifically against the policy of the Bush administration. Part of the reason he got elected was to have the country stop acting like an ass. The other two did not get elected, partly because the country knew they wanted to continue many policies that were unpopular.
I bet he learned it from the news, like always. /sarcasm off
I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
because of what Obama administration has done
From the summary:
The NSA memo dated October 2006...
Yes Obama is at fault for continuing it, but calling him out as the sole person responsible is not the way to fix this.
Interesting to keep in mind, that when this was initiated (2006), Angela Merkel had just pushed for the successful change in Germany's laws pertaining to private equity/leveraged buyouts (which had lowered Denmark's national tax revenues by an estimated 10% due to the LBO of Denmark's major telecom firm, TDC), and later, around 2008 or thereabouts, would push for the ending of naked swaps, the economic weapon of mass destruction which the US Treasury department is permanently enamored with. The timeline is important and cogent to this discussion because, as always, one should follow the money.
Oh give me a break!
Let's play devils advocate...
Obama: "NSA stop everything no more spying! I am cutting off your funds."
Reaction from the pundits: "Obama likes the evil guys and supports terrorists!" That is exactly what the pundits will say. Simply put Obama is dammed if he does, and dammed if he does not. The problem here is that this is not a president issue, but a security system that has gotten out of control!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
My thoughts, Ankh-Morpork, are of thee/ Let others boast of martial dash/ For we have boldly fought with cash/ We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes./ We own all your generals - touch us and you'll lose./ Morporkia! Morporkia!/ Morporkia owns the day!/ We can rule you wholesale/ Touch us and you'll pay. Terry Pratchett
The Iraq war was not caused by intelligence failures. They had no evidence whatsoever that Iraq was involved with AQ. Cheney did not accept this answer, and had a squad of three nitwits go through the rejected intel pile untill they found Screwballs' testimony. "Screwball", according to the CIA's report, was a schizophrenic liar, a real piece of work, and not to be taken seriously. His 'intel' was shitcanned by the professionals.
Good enough! Cheney took the crap that his people dragged in, told Powell to shoot it at the UN, and the war's your uncle. The great bit is that since the crap story was "from the CIA", and the CIA *cannot hold press conferences* to denounce the lying sack, they knew they were going to take the hit. And did. We only know because some CIA officers walked off the job and told us about it, in real time. And were ignored, of course. War war war Iraq war terrorists Iraq war.
Cheney. Ashcroft. Wolfowitz. Rice. The four shits of the apocalypse. They did it on purpose. Three were writers of the Project for the New American Century paper, which insisted that the US take the Iranian and Iraqi oil fields for itself, to deny China and Asia access to the two giant sweet crude sources in the world, for the sole purpose of blocking their economic power.
The CIA was a victim of Cheney and his little squad of economic warriors. We failed them by not prosecuting the murderers. And it was mass murder, for Realpolitik and for cash. And don't forget, this bordered on treason, because Osama got clean away for ten years while Cheney and company were looting Iraq clean.
You can't think of international diplomacy like high school, where you've got friends and you've got foes. All alliances between nations are ones of convenience, and not of any sort of emotional bond.
Straw man and irrelevant.
If you believe the alliances between the U.S. and its Western allies have not been hurt by the spying revelations, you are blind.
In fact, the U.S's "closest allies" are all nations we've waged war or proxy war against in the past: U.K., Canada, Germany, Japan. Realpolitik dominates international diplomacy(and its best buddy, espionage), and not without reason.
You're not really helping the U.S. here. If you had included examples of 'Realpolitik' by countries other than the U.S., it would have been stronger.
If the Iraq War taught the world nothing else, it should lie in the example set by Tony Blair and George W. Bush: Just being a "world leader" won't stop an individual from lying...and human lives are among the stakes.
Now if you're really upset, then simply demand that the NSA share all of the conversations of the "world's leaders" with the world's peoples.
Then a possible negative is made into an absolute positive.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"