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Magma Reservoir Under Yellowstone Is Much Bigger Than Previously Thought

schwit1 writes "The reservoir of molten rock underneath Yellowstone National Park in the United States is at least two and a half times larger than previously thought. Despite this, the scientists who came up with this latest estimate say that the highest risk in the iconic park is not a volcanic eruption but a huge earthquake. Jamie Farrell, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Utah, mapped the underlying magma reservoir by analyzing data from more than 4,500 earthquakes. Seismic waves travel more slowly through molten rock than through solid rock, and seismometers can detect those changes. The images show that the reservoir resembles a 4,000-cubic-kilometer underground sponge, with 6–8% of it filled with molten rock. It underlies most of the Yellowstone caldera and extends a little beyond it to the northeast."

55 of 93 comments (clear)

  1. free power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    time for a big old geothermal plant?

    1. Re:free power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      No, far better to have loads of medium sized ones spread all over.

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    2. Re: free power by cffrost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Until the crust becomes unstable, causing a massive extinction level erruption and consuming our stargate.

      Yes, but we won't need the power plant following an ELE — this power plant would be self-decommissioning at the exact moment we're finished using it. Also, couldn't this power plant potentially extend its (and our) own service-life (should this be the risk that does us in...) by transferring energy from the caldera in a less abrupt manner?

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      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    3. Re:free power by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      time for a big old geothermal plant?

      Several companies have applied for permits to build geothermal plants near Yellowstone Park. So far all applications have been denied, by either the federal government or the state of Montana, out of concern that they would adversely affect the geothermal features of the park. We need to understand the geology better before we start tapping the heat.

    4. Re:free power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      The one group that did it was a religious nut group who also did an open system. And yeah, it had an impact. So now, we are insane in our action. We need to allow small ones with binary to go in there and test these, and then raise them up from small to medium.

      --
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    5. Re:free power by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, politicians and bureaucrats need to understand mathematics better so that they realize exactly how much heat you'd have to remove to start influencing geological events. Especially ones that measure 4000 km3...

      --
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    6. Re:free power by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, politicians and bureaucrats need to understand mathematics better so that they realize exactly how much heat you'd have to remove to start influencing geological events.

      It may be less than you realize. According to the National Park Service: In Iceland and New Zealand, geothermal drill holes and wells 2.5 - 6.2 miles distant have reduced geyser activity and hot spring discharge.

      There may be 4000km^3 of magma, but if the geysers and GT plants are both using the same topmost 0.001%, there can be an effect.

    7. Re:free power by quantaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, politicians and bureaucrats need to understand mathematics better so that they realize exactly how much heat you'd have to remove to start influencing geological events. Especially ones that measure 4000 km3...

      While cheap geothermal would be nice I actually don't mind if they're hesitant to start poking the magma filled bubble that is eventually going to burst and wipe out the continent.

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    8. Re:free power by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 1

      it is 80km x 20 km x 2.5 km? Not clear in article.

    9. Re:free power by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Actually every experimental deep geothermal hole we've dug so far had measurable impacts on geyser an even earthquake activity. I believe in geothermal as a great source of energy, but evidence thus far suggests we should proceed with caution.

    10. Re:free power by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Can we do away with the "correlation vs causation" meme every time someone quotes a study? This might be news to you but 99% of scientists already know this and control for it. But more importantly, in matters like this a correlation is enough to stop building until a proper explanation path is developed.

    11. Re:free power by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It would be however the issue of finding sites with hot rock means you are stuck with big volcanic ones or a slightly larger number of ones with a lower temperature difference. In a few places there are efforts to survey for possible geothermal sites under existing power transmission lines but I haven't heard of any success.
      Sadly there hasn't been much success even in obvious non-volcanic hot spots. It gets very expensive to drill down well beyond a kilometre.

    12. Re:free power by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      What are you even talking about? Power plants with "binary"?

    13. Re:free power by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      While cheap geothermal would be nice I actually don't mind if they're hesitant to start poking the magma filled bubble that is eventually going to burst and wipe out the continent.

      Wouldn't poking holes in the caldera help keep it from building up pressure, therefore making an eruption less likely, not more?

    14. Re:free power by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      The power would be cheap, once we got past the start-up costs of moving all USA industry to Montana and Wyoming. Otherwise, the cost of transmitting all that power to current points of consumption would be rather spendy. Not to mention that if it snows those lines down south would be a real strain for the Wichita Lineman, and all the rest of us who would prefer to remember the song rather than once again hearing it constantly wherever fine muzak is played.

      --
      Will
    15. Re:free power by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Businesses have an addiction to expansion. And they aren't going to be happy with the government saying "Alright, you've tapped enough, close that big fancy plant you built." It will be one plant this year with no effect. Then it will be more for longer. Then they'll be funding studies disputing anthropogenic geothermal change. "Old Faithful was going to stop erupting a decade after we started anyway. Besides, JOBS!"

      Perhaps there's enough heat to tap without any effects, just I'd rather err on the side of not allowing greedy people to plunder a national treasure until we know it's actually a hazard not to.

    16. Re:free power by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      I was just in Butte, Montana where they have a park on the grounds of former copper mines that drilled holes a mile deep, in the early 20th century. How expensive could it be, with our improved technology?

    17. Re:free power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps there's enough heat to tap without any effects, just I'd rather err on the side of not allowing greedy people to plunder a national treasure until we know it's actually a hazard not to.

      You mean the national treasure that is a huge frackin' time bomb, just waiting to explode and kill us all? I'd rather lose Old Faithful its kin than lose the continent.

    18. Re:free power by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      Yes and no,

      The problem is it's a National Park and as such protected from things such as this.

      The loss of say Old Faithful would be a loss of a national and natural treasure.

      Something that's been there for eons and we have to ruin it to pay a few cents on the dollar less for electricity.

      --
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    19. Re: free power by RMingin · · Score: 2

      JOR-EL! We've told you again and again, the Kryptonian geothermal power systems are SAFE! If you don't stop this scaremongering campaign, the council will have you censured! Charges may be filed in the Hall of Justice!

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    20. Re:free power by operagost · · Score: 1

      You forget, AC, that we are surrounded by liquid hot MAG-MA.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    21. Re:free power by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      What is indeed true during nearly the entire lifetime of the baloon.

    22. Re:free power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      First off, most oil wells in America are currently drilled at 6000-10000' feet deep. That is, 1.5 - ~3 KM deep. Secondly, many of those oil wells have temps of 125-150C.
      With fractional drilling and the pump out of these areas, one smart idea is to drill and bend at around 12K' under a number of oil wells that are mostly spent. Then use that to push either water or CO2 through and heat up.

      Now, as to Yellowstone, you can drill less than 1000' and hit loads of places with LOTS of heat. And yeah, they have mapped it already. What is missing is that the laws forbid it, yet, I think that they are making horrible mistakes. A simple binary system would work great there. AND, it could be used to return large amounts of minerals that can be pulled from the water.

      --
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    23. Re:free power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      binary power plants, are basically, closed cycles. That is, they pull up steam or CO2 and then use that to heat water or even ammonia, while the original steam/CO2 is re-inected back into the ground. Note that the secondary steam/ammonia drives the generators.

      --
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    24. Re:free power by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Read the whole line you quoted. Lets be sure it's actually a hazard and actually will be solved by plundering it first.

    25. Re: free power by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      We should have buried that thing long ago, anyway.

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
    26. Re:free power by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Much deeper than that so far (~5km from memory for a "close to surface" geothermal heat source) and those deep oil wells were not cheap anyway. Google for "hot wet rock" - maybe with the net being what it is add "geothermal" :)
      It's interesting stuff but the costs have made development of a pilot plant very slow.

      Volcanic stuff in comparison is obvious and already in production use in at least two countries.

    27. Re:free power by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      You will find that most of the current active geo-thermal systems are located close to the surface (like 1000-3000' down).
      And I think that you were looking for hot dry rock(Australian) or EGS (USA) for enhanced geothermal system is what you are looking for.
      Now, for being able to drill most anywhere, you need to go deeper with a supply well that pushes a working fluid through cracks out to other collection wells that then generate steam. This concept was developed in America back in the 70's, but was stopped by reagan.
      You will find that about 10 different implementation have/are being done. 2 are worth looking at, which is the Aussie's project (google for australia geo-thermal habenero and that should tell you something ).
      The other big one is America's EGS over in Oregon. It is located by an extinct volcano (newberry) and like the Aussie project is moving forward and looking good.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    28. Re:free power by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Yes that's the sort of stuff I meant - good summary there. I've been following the slow progress of two Australian projects over the last decade and a bit. Drilling deep holes costs a lot more than those projects can easily obtain. In one of those projects it's effectively natural nuclear power :)
      Getting enough of a temperature difference for electricity generation isn't easy that way - very deep or volcanic are the options. If you lower the bar even more to heat pumps however then you don't have to go very deep to get enough of a temperature difference - I think the water in the flooded mine tunnels under Glasgow is being used in such a project with suitable sites in about half of the city. The numbers I heard on that were 4W of heat moved for every 1W of input - source was a "naked scientist" podcast I heard yesterday but I think it was recorded some months ago.

    29. Re:free power by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I see an advantage to the Yellowstone scheme: when building the plant attracts the usual assortment of luddite yammerhead protesters, we could send in the bison and the grizzlies to take care of them. We could call it sustainable reuse of biological materials.

    30. Re:free power by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      You could probably even power a pump to make a "fake" geyser to keep the tourists happy :)

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  2. no supervolcano? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    where's my *DOOM*??? we can't even get a 1 mile asteroid to come closer than 2.4 times the earth-moon distance in the forseeable future. (1997 XF11 in 2028)

    1. Re:no supervolcano? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, we have created sufficient terrorists to keep the population afraid.

  3. Technodrome! by antifoidulus · · Score: 2

    Obviously what is happening is that the Shredder and Krang have been creating magma in their magma-factory inside the Technodrome. They are obviously planning something sinister, so we need to send some turtles, perhaps turtles trained in ninjutsu, down there to set things straight.

    1. Re:Technodrome! by phluid61 · · Score: 1

      Michaelangelo was my favorite ninja turtle.

      No, wait, it was Raphael.

      But Donatello does machines! (No GIF while I'm at work)

    2. Re:Technodrome! by _merlin · · Score: 1

      Raphael's cool but rude, which I imagine is how our ethanol-fuelled friend likes to see himself.

  4. Be afraid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The last Caldera in that region of the country morphed into The SCO Group.

    1. Re:Be afraid by tobiasly · · Score: 2

      The last Caldera in that region of the country morphed into The SCO Group.

      Luckily for us they were able to arrange their own extinction-level event before becoming a danger.

  5. Alright, don't worry, I have experience. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've played a lot of Minecraft, and what we need to do is dig down to the Magma layer so we can get some diamonds and obsidian. This we can then use to make a portal to the Nether, which we will then enter to be safe from the perilous scourge of the pigmen.

      Everybody get to punching.

    1. Re:Alright, don't worry, I have experience. by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2

      Digging down to the deepest layers of the world sounds great at first but then someone carelessly shoots a Voodoo Demon and next thing we know we're neck-deep in unicorns and somersauting tortoises. Thanks but no.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  6. Geothermal Energy by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'd tap that!

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Geothermal Energy by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      You'd burn your tally-wick off!

      --
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    2. Re:Geothermal Energy by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2

      Careful. I'm relatively certain that Yellowstone Caldera has "(T): Destroy all creatures".

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      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    3. Re:Geothermal Energy by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      What are you, the NSA or something?

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  7. Actual Publication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jvolgeores.2013.03.022

    "Repeating earthquakes in the Yellowstone volcanic field: Implications for rupture dynamics, ground deformation, and migration in earthquake swarms"
    Frédérick Massin, Jamie Farrell, Robert B. Smith

    Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research
    Volume 257, 1 May 2013, Pages 159–173

  8. Highest risk by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    the highest risk in the iconic park is not a volcanic eruption but a huge earthquake

    ... that will cause the megaeruption.

    1. Re:Highest risk by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      This geophysicist seems to have trouble acknowledging existential threats - he's very concerned about earthquakes that kill 28 people, but brushes off events that are 1 million times less likely, yet could kill far more than 28 million people within a year of them happening....

    2. Re:Highest risk by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Someone should show him a photo of a black swan

    3. Re:Highest risk by oreiasecaman · · Score: 1

      One black swan is all fine and dandy, at least compared to dragons

      --
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  9. Re:Quaid... by crashumbc · · Score: 1

    ROFL, Well played sir.

    p.s. the version with Arnold was the best.

  10. 53 miles long and 28 miles across * 2.5 by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    Puts the caldera well into Montana and Idaho*

    [*] - http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs100-03/

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  11. Greaaaaaaaat... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    That's like finding out Kim Kardashian's ass is much bigger than originally thought.

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  12. Geothermal has its problems too- pollution, quakes by peter303 · · Score: 1

    There are very few "perfect" energy sources in the world, and geothermal has its pecticular share of issues.
    The brines associated with geothermal have all kinds of chemicals ike sulfates and metals. They need to be disposed of. This was the chief complaint in not allowing geothermal in Hawaii.
    If you create your own fluid circulation system, i.e. inject water to heat up, then run a dynamo, then you risk induced-quakes. These have been associatred with numerous injection geothermal systems in California and Phillipines. And non-geothermal water disposed has cause quaks in several Colorado sites, Switerlandm, Oklahoma, near fracking areas, and so on.

  13. What is this?! by skaralic · · Score: 1

    A magma reservoir for ants?! It has to be at least... 3 times bigger than this!

  14. Re:Geothermal has its problems too- pollution, qua by BranMan · · Score: 1

    And why is that necessarily a bad thing? The way I look at it if tapping geothermal causes quakes, then quakes were going to happen anyway - eventually. And the longer between quakes, the worse they are. That seems obvious - more time for energy to build up, release more energy at once, worse quake.

    I rather trade an earthquake that's a 2 or 3 on the scale every year than wait for the 100 year one that hits with an 11.5!