Spy Expert Says Australia Operating As "Listening Post" For US Agencies

First time accepted submitter ozduo writes in with news about Australia's alleged involvement with the ongoing NSA spying program. "Intelligence expert Professor Des Ball says the Australian Signals Directorate — formerly known as the Defense Signals Directorate — is sharing information with the National Security Agency (NSA). The NSA is the agency at the heart of whistleblower Edward Snowden's leaks, and has recently been accused of tapping into millions of phone calls of ordinary citizens in France, Germany and Spain. Mr Ball says Australia has been monitoring the Asia Pacific region for the US using local listening posts. 'You can't get into the information circuits and play information warfare successfully unless you're into the communications of the higher commands in [the] various countries in our neighborhood,' he told Lateline. Mr Ball says Australia has four key facilities that are part of the XKeyscore program, the NSA's controversial computer system that searches and analyses vast amounts of internet data. They include the jointly-run Pine Gap base near Alice Springs, a satellite station outside Geraldton in Western Australia, a facility at Shoal Bay, near Darwin, and a new center in Canberra."

Comments

lolwut?

[girlintraining]

"Intelligence expert Professor Des Ball says the Australian Signals Directorate â" formerly known as the Defense Signals Directorate â" is sharing information with the National Security Agency (NSA).

Let's rewrite that to be a bit more accurate and a bit less, er, leading:

One of America's closest allies and long-time member of ECHELON recently reminded the world that they haven't stopped sharing intelligence.

Re:lolwut?

[bill_mcgonigle]

ob. link.

From the linked article there:

Together with the giant American National Security Agency (NSA) and its Canadian, British, and New Zealand counterparts, DSD operates a network of giant, highly automated tracking stations that illicitly pick up commercial satellite communications and examine every fax, telex, e-mail, phone call, or computer data message that the satellites carry. ...
According to the former Canadian agent Mike Frost, it would be "nave" for Australians to think that the Americans were not exploiting stations like Kojarena for economic intelligence purposes. ""They have been doing it for years," he says. ""Now that the Cold War is over, the focus is towards economic intelligence. Never ever over-exaggerate the power that these organisations have to abuse a system such as Echelon. Don't think it can't happen in Australia. It does."

My, how much progress we've made in fifteen years...

Re:lolwut?

[girlintraining]

My, how much progress we've made in fifteen years...

We've made considerable progress in 15 years. 15 years ago, nobody thought the internet was much more than an academic curiousity. All the big players today didn't exist 15 years ago -- Google, Facebook, eBay, Amazon... didn't exist. 404 Business Not Found. But 15 years ago, and people seem to forget, the telecommunications networks that the internet was built on, and later developed a symbiosis with, was being tapped, surveilled, and that data shared with these same governments; As they had done since a few years after WWII, when the world leaders held summits and asked: How can we prevent the next Nazi Germany? And the answer was the same one that won the Allied Powers WWII: Computers. Cryptography. Information Awareness. Back then, information awareness came down to radios, radars, and phone lines, but the doctrine hasn't changed in 50 years: Knowledge of the enemies communications and positions is what wins wars. It's how Germany kicked the everloving shit out of Europe -- blitzkrieg. Be fast. Go unseen. Rain death from above. And be gone before the enemy can mount a response.

And people act like this is some kind of new thing... like the mentality and the methodologies being used by the NSA and its foreign counterparts are this big revelatory thing. But it's not. Not when you understand that we have our eyes and ears everywhere -- you can't move an army anywhere on Earth without us (and by that, I mean America and her allies) knowing about it, and being able to respond with lightning speed. This is common knowledge today. From satellites to realtime worldwide communication... intelligence assets can now be placed, developed, analyzed, and acted upon through the chain of command in less time than it takes you to brush your teeth in the morning.

Which means there's only one place left a threat can hide: By being small and decentralized... by flying under the radar.

And lookie lookie -- what's the NSA been up to these past few years? They aren't just tracking standing armies now. They aren't even just tracking companies, factories, and infrastructure that those armies would need for logistics. They've gone right now to street level. They're going house by house, cable by cable, looking for anyone and anything that could still fly under the radar.

Good? Bad? Depends on who you ask. But the one thing I've gotten real damn tired of hearing on Slashdot and hundreds of other websites is the tired mantra of "Oh noes! The NSA is spying on us!" ... without bothering to answer the question of why much beyond "Because they're just evil, you know." People have developed the NSA's true motives in their minds about as well as Hollywood develops Star Trek villains! "I'm gonna be bad because... I feel like being bad."

Re:lolwut?

[s.petry]

While you make a nice speech you have a huge misnomer in your statements. We are not seeing a "spying on enemies and troops"! If it was only spying on the military of foreign agencies, people would not have an issue with it. It is spying and tracking individuals who are NOT military. It is spying on allies with the same fervor you would an enemy. It is spying on businesses who are not working for a foreign military.

This spying has resulted in squashing free speech in the US, Germany, the UK, Italy, etc.. These are not military actions by foreign enemies, these are people that are not content with what their selected leaders are doing. Police show up before rallies in both countries (I have friends and relatives in Germany and live in the US) and start arresting people. They insert agent provocateurs in some of these events to disrupt movements (Canada, the US and Germany are all proven to have done this).

This spying has resulted in massive misinformation campaigns against real world problems. They can see where people are getting data and disrupt communications. They see hot debate topics and flood the media outlets with disinformation and ad homimen when they can't disrupt the data.

If it was _only_ military spying like you hint at we would probably be happy about it, but even this has become either a honey pot or distortion. Look at the whole of the Middle East as well as North Korea for examples.

The fear people have is that this data is being gathered for the same reason the SS cataloged and monitored every German. Do something someone does not like and you are a "sympathizer" and killed or jailed. We already see buds of this happening.

Nothing good can come from this level of spying and information gathering. Nothing! To claim that we all claim "Oh noes" without considering all of the facts and consequences based on historical evidence is not only unfair, but absolutely wrong. Perhaps _you_ have not paid attention or not weighed much, but many of us have!

Re:lolwut?

[AHuxley]

You can read the classic sock puppets out on any NSA story on slashdot. I think they still try and post about "fear" and 'not' looking at global finance for insider trading in some desperate struggle for legitimacy.
With every Snowden news report they look more and more lost. The world now understands the reach and fascination the NSA has with all calls, faxes, emails, chats, logs, junk encryption. Now they also understand how their own govs staff and contractors subvert their own govs over generations.
What was sold as looking outward at the Soviet Union only was also always inward too. Everybody understands now and many crypto developers will be much smarter. US tech brands will be enjoyed but never trusted again.

Re:lolwut?

[khallow]

Nothing good can come from this level of spying and information gathering. Nothing!

I quite agree, s.petry! Even if you did for some reason trust the current people in power for the rest of time, they won't stay in power. Even if the current people have good intentions for such abuses of power, that doesn't mean a future more ruthless regime won't take their place. In fact, such a regime might be more likely to happen as a result of this spying and data collecting!

Re:lolwut?

[readacc]

The thing that will really turn someone's head is if you question whether your Government is one of the "good guys". If it can be shown that, say, the US aren't the good guys, then and only then will it click in people's brains that perhaps all this collection of data on citizens might actually be cause for concern.

Yes, some Governments are worse than others, but it takes the first step in realizing that all Governments look out for themselves first and their citizens a distant second, before you realize why pervasive surveillance is a problem

Re:lolwut?

[msobkow]

The problem is we have yet another fascist-leaning government running the spy agency in question. They kowtow to corporatism. The ignore the will of the people. They publicly and blatantly take bribes. They launch the police against their own people should they protest their behaviour. They launch wars and kill millions over resources.

And all while flag-waving patriotism claims this bullshit is "freedom" and "democracy."

What a farce the world has become.

The Nazis could only dream of achieving what the US has done with their hegemony.

Re:lolwut?

[msobkow]

Before you deny it, maybe you should read Mussolini's definition of Fascism.

The most important point he makes? Give the people just enough decision making power for them to believe they're in control, while reserving the true decision making power for the state.

Re:lolwut?

[Sardaukar86]

The most embarrassing thing about this (for me anyway) is that New Zealand is also complicit in this arrangement. As I understand it our Waihopai facility near Blenheim (attacked by activists in 2008, they were acquitted in 2010) is an important part of the surveillance programme. I expect to see a similar article about us in due course.

I jeered at the trio when I saw the original news item. At the time I called them Luddites, trespassers and vandals, unaware of the larger issue they were taking on. For shame! When the NSA scandal broke I suddenly understood what they were about and realised they were actually everyday garden-variety heroes standing up for something they believed in.

Re:lolwut?

[s.petry]

Since when has free speech been squashed in the US?

Is this a serious question? Did you bother to stop and read any history at all, look at any recent laws at all, or read what I wrote above?

You do realize that we have "Free Speech Zones" in the US as of very recent laws, and those zones still require permits in most cases. Go find 100 other people to gather with you in protest and see what happens (No, I won't bail you out). You do know that at least 2 teenagers went to jail for posting on Facebook with the exact same terminology that young men have used as intimidating rhetoric for centuries. You do realize that there are countless News outlets that do not release any "Press" that the Government does not approve first (New York Post has had several whistle blowers which should be a quick Google start).

To claim that we are not as bad as another country does not change facts, it makes you look like an idiot. It's like a Chinese person arguing that China is better than North Korea because in China they only go to jail for life for protesting, they don't get killed for it. They are also squelching free speech, only the methods and punishments are different.

This pretty much describes anyone who is hyperventilating about this whole spying non-sense.

Then you go from a failure to think critically directly to an ad hominem and appeal to emotion. So far, I don't think very highly of your comments. You can't discount anything I claimed, you simply ignore it and slander anyone that does not agree.

The general public does a much better job than any government could ever do in this regard.

Idiocy! If the public is uninformed or intentionally mislead, that is not the public's fault. This is not an uncommon issue, and has happened time and time again through history when power gets entrenched in the same hands for too long.

And for the record the US constitution only applies to US citizens but everyone else is fair game.

That statement is a lie. Go read the US Constitution. You don't even have to study it, just read it.

Anyone wishing to have a meaningful discussion about the NSA also needs to factor in all the other countries who do the exact same thing

On that statement I will tell you that you are either a sock puppet or lack any critical thinking abilities. Don't bother to reply, either shill somewhere else or try and heal your broken head.

Huge surprise.

[demonlapin]

The fact that the USA, UK, Canada, and Australia have a very close relationship surprises exactly whom, these days? I mean, it goes back to WW2, if not before, and each country has its own reasons: the UK gets to exert significant influence over the world's dominant power, Canada wants the US to help pay for the resources to defend the high Arctic, and Australia found out during WW2 that due to geography, the US was a much more reliable guarantor of security than the UK.

Re:Huge surprise.

[legoblocks]

Exactly. AKA Five Eyes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement

Don't think it can't happen in Australia, It does.

[sd4f]

"Don't think it can't happen in Australia, It does."

What a lot of Australians don't even realise is that anything can happen, our political system guarantees almost no rights to citizens, with only one real recourse; you can vote for another politician at the next election. Problem is, when the two-party system moves in step, there's pretty much nothing that can be done, and the general apathy of the public ensures that nothing will be done.

It is my understanding, that in the USA, the spying conducted by the NSA is probably illegal. The problem in Australia is, as far as I'm aware, there's no problem with the parliament passing a law permitting or compelling third parties to spy or provide data, so whatever had been happening, is perfectly legal here, and the public at large doesn't care.

Re:Blame it on the Kiwis.

[girlintraining]

After all, we must all be protected from any form of true democracy and/or choice!

The people who work at these agencies would probably remind you that without all this surveillance, you'd be hiding under your bed waiting for the next terror attack or IED. Democracy would be on the evening news every night waving a flag over the bodies of its adherents while its opponents marched in the streets, celebrating victory after victory.

People forget that we do have enemies; There is more than one way to organize a society, and a lot of people feel like the best way to deal with a society different than your own, is to advocate, encourage, and even practice violence against them "so they know their place." Are the threats as big as they say? Are the sacrifices we've made to keep those threats at bay worth it? I don't know. But don't you dare get on a soap box and preach about "true democracy" without answering the question: How do we protect it?

You do not just get to handwave away the threats. You have to answer them -- even if it's just to say "Then that is the price we will pay." It's okay to say everything they're doing is wrong; Afterall, this is a democracy right? But if you won't suggest an alternative, then you don't really care about democracy. You just want to rage against "the man" and be a rebel without a cause. You want to feel righteous, but without all that hard work of enduring tensions, making compromises, and reasoning out not what's best for you -- but what's best for an entire country.

And if you do that, then I have no respect for you. You want to bitch about the NSA? Okay, fine. I grant you that. But what's your alternative? Put something on the table for the rest of us to discuss, or give up your chair for someone who's willing to not just talk about democracy, but sit down and actually do it.

Re:Blame it on the Kiwis.

[Daniel Dvorkin]

You do not just get to handwave away the threats. You have to answer them -- even if it's just to say "Then that is the price we will pay."

Okay: then that is the price we will pay.

More precisely, that is the price we might pay. Personally, I think the price will be a lot lower than you say--but I'm willing to take that risk. Because there is nothing al-Qaeda or any other bunch of troglodytes is going to do to us that's worse than what we can do, and are doing, to ourselves.

Happy now?