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Full Details of My Attempted Entrapment For Teaching Polygraph Countermeasures

George Maschke writes "In May of this year, I was the target of an attempted entrapment, evidently in connection with material support for terrorism. Marisa Taylor of McClatchy reported briefly on this in August. I've now published a full public accounting, including the raw source of the e-mails received and the IP addresses involved. Comments from Slashdot readers more technically savvy than I are welcome."

42 of 465 comments (clear)

  1. Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by DavidClarkeHR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Want to stay safe? Don't learn ANYTHING that the government doesn't explicitly approve.

    If you're living in the 40s, that means avoid learning about integration.
    In the 90s? avoid learning about marriage equality.
    Living in 2013? Don't learn about avoiding government interrogation.
    Living in 2015? Don't even THINK about avoiding surveillance.

    --
    - Nec Impar Pluribus, or so I'm told.
    1. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Lisias · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We would never have had PGP or encryption research outside government labs if everyone followed such rules.

      The way I see it, no one would be using encryption nowadays if Obama managed to be president in the nineties.

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    2. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Informative

      We would never have had PGP or encryption research outside government labs if everyone followed such rules.

      The way I see it, no one would be using encryption nowadays if Obama managed to be president in the nineties.

      Were you around in the nineties? That was when Clinton used CALEA to force telecoms to build the exact infrastructure that was exploited after 9/11 by Bush, and later Obama. That was when Clinton pushed the ultimately doomed "Clipper Chip", with all other strong encryption to be criminalized. Turns out, something as ham-handed as Clipper turned out to be un-necessary, since the NSA was just able to (apparently) subvert certification authorities and cripple hardware-based random number generators.

      If Clinton had allowed a secure digital infrastructure to be built in the first place, none of the current shenanigans would have been possible, or at least would have been way harder.

    3. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Were you around in the nineties? That was when Clinton used CALEA to force telecoms to build the exact infrastructure that was exploited after 9/11 by Bush, and later Obama."

      The lesson is clear: even if the current administration pushes something through while promising not to abuse it, that has absolutely no bearing on whether someone else will, later.

    4. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The way I see it, no one would be using encryption nowadays if Obama managed to be president in the nineties.

      Not before 1997, according to the age rules in the constitution. Since Obama was born in August 1961, this limits his eligibility for presidency to August 1996 onwards, which effectively means January 1997 onwards due to the schedule of presidencies in the US.

      I know I'm going to some sort of hell for trolls for posting this, but... couldn't he have just faked up his birth certificate with an earlier date on it?

    5. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you're living in the 40s, that means avoid learning about integration.

      Derivatives are fine, though.

    6. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, if they're both consenting adults, why the fuck not?

      Really, what difference could it possibly make to you if they did or didn't? Is your life affected in any possible way?

    7. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Incest is unethical because of the risk of inbreeding; a marriage between siblings with no biological children hurts nobody.

      With the same argument you could forbid sexual intercourse between a male and a female, where the sum of their ages is above 80 years. The risk of trisomia-21 is quite high in this constellation. Higher than the risk of birth defects due to inbreeding.

      The risk of inbreeding was much higher in tribal societies, because they were on the verge of inbreeding anyway because of their small numbers. Today, our parents were choosing each other literally between millions of potential candidates. The genetic diversity between two New Yorkian siblings is often larger than that of two random members of one of the remaining native tribes - the siblings share 25% of their genetic code, native tribes often 40% and more.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  2. Two things to remember about polygraphs: by jcr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1) there is no such thing as a "lie detector". Polygraphs are voodoo.

    2) NEVER talk to the police.

    HTH,

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by ledow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So it's actually the WORST device in the world to use then.

      Because the people who you don't want to get into the job, the ones who know that it's a load of baloney and any idiot can "pass" the test, will. And the people who are innocent but have that "guilty fear" that comes with natural innocence will "fail".

      I'm sorry, but in my country, I'd laugh at you if you asked me to take one. And I'd probably be able to get you into the papers tomorrow in the funny section too, just to show you up. It's just that hilarious a concept. But then, to my knowledge, outside of very, very, very restricted professions we don't have work-prescribed drug testing or any of the other shit either (I don't do drugs, never have, but just the CONCEPT of someone demanding I take a drug test to work somewhere? Fuck off. And I work in education). When did your boss get to control your life?

      And for a job in a BANK? FFS. The US must be much more stupid than I suspected.

    2. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by ArbitraryName · · Score: 4, Informative

      They certainly are in many places in the US. Nineteen states allow them under various circumstances and the Supreme Court in Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceutical set the Federal standard to be the discretion of the judge.

    3. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Despite the fact that most of the world knows this, there's still one country that thinks such things can be admissible in court."

      You don't mean the U.S., do you? Because to the best of my knowledge no jurisdiction in the U.S. allows polygraphs to be used as evidence against a defendant, without their consent. And they'd be stupid to consent.

      However, a positive polygraph result can be used in your favor, *IF* the judge will allow it.

    4. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

      "I'm sorry, but in my country, I'd laugh at you if you asked me to take one."

      You seem to have a strange idea of the United States. The job he was referring to is a private employment position for a bank, which is a privately-owned business. They can hire (or not) any security guard they want.

      Personally, I would laugh at them too. Same with pre-employment drug screening. I simply won't do that. (And the practice has fallen out of favor, anyway.) But remember: it is private parties who did these things; it had nothing to do with government.

      "When did your boss get to control your life?"

      For a long time, a lot of people in the U.S. let employers get away with this kind of thing. I don't know why. I don't put up with it, nor do any of my friends. It isn't like that so much, anymore. I think the employers finally figured out that they were chasing away all the smart people.

      "The US must be much more stupid than I suspected."

      If you're judging an entire country by one person's anecdote, you must be much more stupid than I expected.

    5. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Can't have those guys doing mind-numbingly boring jobs blowing off a little stress when they get home you know..."

      Here's an interesting point, though: drug screening for pot will likely become an illegal practice in Washington and Colorado. You can't fire or "not hire" somebody for doing something perfectly legal that has nothing to do with the job, if it isn't happening on the job.

      That is to say: hiring criteria has to be job-related. Appearance (clothing) can be job-related. Things you cay in public can (in some circumstances) be deemed job-related. But smoking a joint on your day off is in no way job-related. If it's also legal, then it's probably ILlegal for somebody to make it a hiring criterion (or grounds for firing).

    6. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by stenvar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You might as well claim that states allow the reading of chicken entrails as evidence in court under Daubert, which would, of course, be utter nonsense. Daubert just says that it is up to the judge to determine whether evidence is admissible. In fact, that's not even what Daubert actually decided; Congress adopted the Federal Rules of Evidence which gave judges this power, and Daubert just ruled that they superseded the stricter prior Frye standard, so the court didn't even rule whether this was a good idea, but simply whether Congressional rules override common law.

      Polygraph tests, of course, should be inadmissible in court and should be forbidden as part of police work. This is the job of Obama and Congress. Obama should have pushed regulations against their use in any part of the federal government, and Congress should outlaw them. The fact that Obama instead chooses to persecute people tells you where he actually stands on the issue of scientific evidence.

  3. tacit admission by globaljustin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    either Polygraphs are bullshit or these charges should be dropped...

    by setting up the sting and charging the guys for what they did, they government is admitting that it is possible to fool the polygraph

    if it is possible to fool the polygraph it leaves no doubt that the polygraph is not scientific or useful

    by proving these men guilty, the prosecution simultaneously proves that the lie detector is a farce and negates the logical need for the entire charade in the first place

    a good lawyer could get a not guilty verdict IMHO

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:tacit admission by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      FWIW it is possible to tell the complete total truth, and still be convicted and sentenced to prison for a long term (or worse). Although your logic makes sense intuitively, it doesn't make sense legally.

      Just ask Edward Snowden.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:tacit admission by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a psychological spiel. What a polygraph does is to note down reactions, both voluntary and involuntary. When you get asked questions, your body reacts. The idea is now that lying requires more "work" from you than telling the truth, since you have to fabricate it.

      In reality, though, the way you react is dependent on so many facets that whether you lie or tell the truth plays a minor role, if any. It's like saying that you can tell what TV program someone is watching by looking at how much power he uses. While technically, in theory, possible, there are so many other appliances running in his house (or not) that their combination pretty much drowns out that information in way too much noise.

      What is left of the polygraph is that people might THINK it works, and hence react differently. The goal is to give you the impression that it not only can, but WILL tell, without a doubt, that you're lying if you lie. So you get told that it can easily spot when and how you lie (it cannot), that it will be used in court against you (it cannot), that they used it multiple times to convict people (they have not) and so on.

      The psychology around it is the actual "value" of it during an interrogation. Just like in medieval times showing the instruments of torture were usually enough to extract confessions, so does telling people about the polygraph. The main difference probably being that the instruments of torture can actually deliver what is promised, something the polygraph cannot.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. The US of A by vikingpower · · Score: 4, Insightful

    are turning into a police state, or at least into the velvet-gloved version of it: a surveillance state. So are certain western European states. What are we going to do about it ?

    --
    Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    1. Re:The US of A by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What really kicks me in the ass is that all of our legislators and nearly every adult in the US remembers a time when we measured ourselves by what we are not and what we will not and do not do. Now we are doing it. People are STILL saying "we live in a free country."

    2. Re:The US of A by mysidia · · Score: 5, Informative

      Try asking anyone under 30 if they know what the phrase "Papers Please!" denotes

      It's just two words... It's a lot of things.

      It's when the Military place soldiers in a natural disaster area such as New Orleans after Katrina requiring you to show military ID or proof of government authorization, to avoid arrest, or having vehicles impounded

      It's an attack onAmerican birthright citizenship

      It's two words that succinctly describe America's dark future.

      Personal and Professional Encounters with Surveillance

      anti-state.com: May I See Your Papers Please?

      It's what Mr. Hiibel of Nevada went to jail for refusing to comply with

      It's what police do now to ordinary people minding their own business.

      It's congress work on the REAL ID act

      It's a name given to a section of an Arizona law upheld by the Supreme court.

      It's the name of a complaint against changes the US is making starting this Fall 2013 to further restrict the free travel of Americans and greatly increase the difficulty of US citizens getting passports

      It's the name of a dystopian video game about communist immigration control.

      It's the name of an anti-TSA blog

      It's a request you comply with when asked by the police; otherwise, you face immediate arrest.

  5. Dousing rods by benjfowler · · Score: 5, Informative

    Some fraudster in the UK went down recently for selling dousing rods as bomb detectors to the Iraqis. There were quite a few people credulous twits in the media who went after skeptics who were against this transparent ripoff, but it took a good ten years for enough momentum to build, to get this investigated, and for the criminal who ran this, to get charged with anything.

    As far as I can tell, polygraphy is just as full of woo as phrenology, and it was invented roughly around the same time. I do wonder how long it'll take for the stupidity to be debunked sufficiently hard, for the public outcry to overcome the True Believers and have this snake oil abolished?

    1. Re:Dousing rods by M1FCJ · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem with the dousing rod bomb detectors were not because they were shite, they were accepted by the UK Gov as legitimate, making it a political problem as well as a technical & ethical problem. The bastard selling them was an ex-Met police officer, had connections and even though anyone with two brain cells and a technical background could clearly say they were fake, they managed to catch the bombs roughly 50% of the time. Of course, if you flip a coin you'll get it 50% of the time but for people who don't understand probability, this sounds like a very high catch rate. The alarming reports have been around for years and years but it took a BBC documentary for people to wake up and pay attention.

      Any politician who had authorized the purchase of the fake systems were just too corrupt to accept they made a huge cockup. I wonder how much money was paid in bribes, worldwide.

    2. Re:Dousing rods by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Dowsing rods do sorta work. They work by giving the user 'permission' to acknowledge their gut feeling that comes from minute observations they aren't consciously aware of.

      However, this was a scam since a few cents worth of bailing wire can do that and this clown was charging 'thousands' and adding worthless fake circuitry.

  6. Re:Why do they go through all the trouble? by jcochran · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The answer to that question is quite simple. Some years back, I had to take a polygraph and frankly, it felt as if a "game" was being played where I didn't know the rules. There were some issues with my test so they rescheduled me for a followup. Since I didn't like the feeling that there was a game being played, I spent the time before the follow up researching polygraphy. Turns out that there's a lot of information on the subject and I also found out that there was a classified government study on the effectiveness of polygraphs. I didn't see the contents of that study, but [i]if[/i] that study reflected the information available in the public literature and [i]if[/i] I were to be a classification authority, I too would have classified the study. The reason is because the public literature boils down to the following.

    Polygraphy as a tool for distinguishing truth from lies is totally worthless. However, as a tool for eliciting voluntary confessions from naive subjects, it's quite effective.

    So as long as it's kept mysterious and secret, it's quite useful. But once the pool of naive subjects is gone (and they would be gone if the reality of polygraphy were widespread), then that tool becomes worthless.

  7. Re:We need a workers government by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Killing hundred million people was not a part of ideologies. You should learn to distinguish between interfaces and implementations.

    How do you plan to elminate private property without murdering the millions who want to keep theirs?

    Communism can only be imposed by force and mass murder, because it's so completely incompatible with human nature.

  8. Re:The Rancidest Hole of All by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

    My, my, my... What do we have here? I've never seen such a rancid asshole before! My cock will now become One With Bayerhole right this minuteness! I can't wait to shoot my ass-seeking cock right into your rancidhole and get this fucking party started! What say you?

    You would think that General Keith Alexander, head of the National Security Agency, would have something better to do than troll a Slashdot comments section. Aren't there illegal wiretaps to order or surveillance records to be shredded?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  9. Re:We need a workers government by radiumsoup · · Score: 5, Insightful

    so far, there have been no implementations of the Communist ideology *without* suppression of free people to the extreme of mass murdering the dissenters.

  10. Slashdotted content (delete when available again) by davecb · · Score: 4, Informative

    An Attempted Entrapment
    Posted by George Maschke on 3 November 2013, 1:34 pm

    In May 2013, I was the target of an attempted entrapment.1 Whether it was a federal agent attempting to entrap me on a contrived material support for terrorism charge or simply an individual’s attempt to embarrass me and discredit AntiPolygraph.org remains unclear. In this post, I will provide a full public accounting of the attempt, including the raw source of communications received and the IP addresses involved.

    As background, it should be borne in mind that a federal criminal investigation into providers of information on polygraph countermeasures, dubbed “Operation Lie Busters,” has been underway since at least November 2011, when an undercover U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent, posing as a job applicant, contacted Chad Dixon of Marion, Indiana for help on passing the polygraph. In December, 2012, Dixon pleaded guilty to federal charges of wire fraud and obstruction of an agency proceeding, for which he has been sentenced to 8 months in federal prison.

    Doug Williams of Norman, Oklahoma, a former police polygrapher who has been teaching people how to pass polygraph examinations for some three decades and operates the website Polygraph.com, was also the target of a sting operation and in February 2013, U.S. Customs and Border Protection executed search warrants on his home and office, seizing business records. He has been threatened with prosecution but to date has not been charged with any crime.

    With this in mind, I received a most curious unsolicited communication on Saturday, 18 May 2013 from <mohammadali201333@yahoo.com>. The message was sent to my AntiPolygraph.org e-mail address <lt;maschke@antipolygraph.org> and was titled “help help help please” (155 kb EML file.) The message body was blank, but there was a PDF attachment with a short message written in Persian, the language of Iran:

    I know Persian, a fact of which the writer was evidently cognizant. Here is a translation:

    Greetings and respect to you, Mr. George Maschke,

    I am Mohammad Aghazadeh and have been living in Iraq for five years. I am a member of an Islamic group that seeks to restore freedom to Iraq. Because the federal police are suspicious of me, they want to do a lie detector test on me. I ask that you send me a copy of your book about the lie behind the lie so that I can use it, or that you help me in any other way. I am very grateful to you.

    The book to which the message refers is The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF), AntiPolygraph.org’s free e-book that, among other things, explains how to pass (or beat) a polygraph “test.” Factors that made me highly suspicious about this message include:

    Why would someone who supposedly fears the police send an unencrypted e-mail acknowledging that he’s a member of an Islamic group that is trying to change the government of Iraq?

    Why would such a person also provide his full name and how long he’s been in the country?

    To my knowledge, there aren’t any Iranian-backed Islamic groups seeking to “restore freedom to Iraq.” In fact, Iran and Iraq have good diplomatic relations.

    Why did this person ask me to send a book that is freely available on-line? Note that this message didn’t ask for a “Persian edition” of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

    I suspected the message was a likely attempt to set me up for prosecution on charges of material support for terrorism (or something similar).2 It seemed highly unlikely that the message could be genuine. Nonetheless, about half an hour after receiving the message, I provided “Mohammad Aghazadeh” the same advice I would give to anyone accused of a crime who has been asked to take a polygraph test:

    Dear Mr. Mohammad Aghazadeh,

    Our advice to everyone under such circumstances is not to submit to the so-called

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  11. You seem to have it wrong by N_Piper · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not law enforcement or tax men but Hair dressers, middle managers, business men who spout nothing but buzz words in other words idiots.
    Idiots who adopted the leaf as a form of currency and then set about preventing inflation by burning down the forests around them.
    The only group that was exiled inappropriately were the janitors, Telephone sanitizers to be specific..
    Also the leftovers did not form a civilization they went feral breeding with the native cavemen and leaving no trace in the fossil record of their base civilization and ultimately corrupting the program of the biocomputer Earth.
    Go through the source material more than once before you make claims about the political meanings of science fiction.

  12. Re:Ha ha ha by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Fah. I was only 14 when I did a comparative analysis of communism and capitalism. Having some background in electronics theory and associated systems approach, I was able to demonstrate that communism is always doomed, because it is not a stable economic system. All stable systems must have both positive and negative feedback loops. (The screech when you put a microphone too close to a speaker is one example of a runaway system, that finally blows something if not corrected.) The classic aphorism of communism is "too each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities". This is essentially two uncoupled, undamped systems with unlimited response - some people have "unlimited needs" and work the system; other people will be worked to death.

    I later discovered that in the real world, this lack of feedback in the economic system is dealt with in two ways - feedback through the political system (corruption of various sorts, political appointments, etc.), and through the black market - a hidden ad hoc capitalist mechanism, often with a political component (bribing the officials).

    So regardless of capitalism, communism is a dead end, and makes no mathematical, much less economic, sense. There is a kind of 'communism of the rich' which is analogous to what techies do with open source, and what Star Trek assumed due to the Replicator technology. It's basically, "to each according to his needs, there's plenty to go around."

    While capitalism has its issues, it is a dynamic complex adaptive system where the excesses can be curbed by _reasonable_ regulation. The complaints that Marx had back in the 1800s were in response to the excesses of what was basically a post-feudal era where companies were generally owned by one, or a small set, of people with zero requirement to take into account any public opinion, and could act as feudal barons. The rise of incorporation has moved capitalism increasingly toward an economically democratic model, where every company must take into account the political and economic environment.

    In practice, no communist government has resulted in 'free people', except in the sense (as an old Soviet joke goes), "we are free - to work ourselves to death"

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  13. Re: what about by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Informative

    My reply to both you and the parent is that IMHO most people (including Greenspan, and all of Wall Street) misinterpret Rand. If you recall, the protagonists in each of her books is a builder, not a financier. They were virulently opposed to those who used manipulation of the economic and political system for their own gains. Her books were really about the importance of the creative and technical versus the political.

    I think it was Nietzche ("Man and Superman"?) who proposed the dichotomy between masters and slaves. I have always felt that he was wrong, that while those two groups may exist, there is a third group, the technical/creative, who does not want to be master and refuses to be slave.

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  14. Re: what about by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My standard answer on Atlas Shrugged is the end of Douglas Adams' second Hitchhiker novel (The Restaurant at the End of the Universe), where Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect meet the people from Golgafrincham. Those people are the leftovers when the elite on Golgafrincham turned their planet into an Randian paradise, with the econonomical elite ruling without bounds, and an army of slave like serfs are working for them.

    In the end, only the leftovers, the seemingly superfluous, tedious people, involved in regulations, law enforcement and taxing, the people Dent and Prefect met, survive, and are able to found a new civilisation on Earth, while the Randian Golgafrincham dies out due to an infection.

    Just remember one thing about Atlas Shrugged: As mentioned in the preface, it's not about men as they are, it's men as they should be. We don't have any morality and ethics in business or government: In other words, instead of a Midas Mulligan we have a Jamie Dimon, instead of a John Galt we have John Boehner, instead of a Hugh Akston we have Twitter....

  15. Re: what about by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I don't misinterpret Ayn Rand. I just don't believe into the "great men" myth. There have been big names, for sure. But none of them would have been big all alone. There are no selfmade millionaires. If you look closely, they either had large teams of people at their hands, or a chain of chance played into their hands. James Watt would just have been a quite gifted instrument maker at the University of Glasgow without John Roebuck and Matthew Boulton. And he wouldn't have become an instrument maker in the first place without his father being a teacher of mathematics.

    And the big railroad barons of the second half of the 19th century never would have been that big without the U.S. government financing and pre-planning the big railroad tracks and protecting the building sites with the cavalry. So much for Ayn Rand's preposition of Atlas Shrugged. The archetypes of Dagny Taggart were free-riding on government subsidaries.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  16. Re:Ha ha ha by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Informative

    No. Capitalism has a host of feedback mechanisms - supply and demand being the archetypical one. Like any good complex adaptive system, when a new 'species' (for example a new technology and resulting new market) appears, the other entities in the system dynamically adapt. This is very similar to the evolutionary ecosystems model. Political feedback, to my mind, should mainly be of the sort that prevents fish that are too big from swimming up small creeks and blocking water flow. (I know that's a really obscure analogy, but I like it.

    A major distortion that exists presently is what I would consider incorrect government policies that encourage near-monopolies and effective monopolies. In the US, anti-trust laws are directed primarily at maintaining two things: preventing unfair advantage of a company's monopoly position, and maintaining a fiction of competition among two to four dominant players.

    If I had my druthers, I would prevent any company with more than 10% of a market to buy or take control of any other market participant for any reason.

    From my own studies of free enterprise as a CAS, it appears to me that if any company controls more than perhaps 20% of a market, or if fewer than 10 or so companies constitute a large percentage of a market, they have effectively too much monopoly power. I have not done the research in detail - I was prepared to work on the PhD in Economics and this was going to be my area of research, but I did not pursue it at that time, so these are 'back of the envelope' numbers.

    Nevertheless, it's instructive to use ecosystems as an analogy. A climax forest may have only a dozen or so tree species but it is very rare for it to have as few as four or five. Aspen trees are interesting - a particular aspen grove may in fact be a single genetic individual. But the environment varies enough that this grove can not take over 100 square miles. This is because the local environment changes constantly, so the area next to the Aspen grove may be better for maple, or fir, or scrub grassland.

    So to maintain the maximum diversity, and dynamic adaptability and efficiency, the role of government regulation is absolutely _not_ to provide a single market. (I.e., do _not_ normalize the laws across all jurisdictions.) That made sense when the economies of scale truly applied - it took a lot of money to build a steel mill. But economies of scale now are primarily tools of capitalist domination. If a large company is truly more competive than small companies, then this should be the case across many jurisdictions with differing local rules. Normalizing the rules across jurisdictions is unfairly (IMHO) handicapping smaller businesses, which as it happens often have lower unit costs these days than large companies. Case in point - labor productivity at a MacDonald's franchise is substantially _lower_ than at the old mom and pop hamburger joint - this is due to two things - MacDonald's already made your burger so it's faster, and every MacDonald's burger is the same - no guessing. But both of those are obsolete criteria in today's world of freely available information.

    At one time, the number of jurisdictions was large, and the information flow between them was relatively slow, so this was not such a large problem. But now we are close to having a single global economic model. This puts the entire economic system at constant risk - e.g. "Too big to fail". This idea is in itself a condemnation of the legal structure we have allowed to develop. And now with the availability of incredibly fast means to rationalize markets, that legal structure is, oddly enough, a bad idea. Today we need more diverse markets, not more similar markets. And that is where the political factor comes in. Or, as I've said to many of my friends, "All decisions should be made as locally as feasible," - whether economic or political.

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  17. Re: what about by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The romance of the creator having to deal with the political realities. In our own minds, we are all Mozart, Tesla, and John Galt. :)

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  18. Re: what about by garyebickford · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You make a useful point - through most of US, if not global, history, there has been the thread of the creative, explorer, or pioneer who probably has support from investors, governments, other parties, etc. Columbus is perhaps an archetypical example - he spent something like 10 years trying to get various monarchs (Portugal, Spain, England, maybe even Italy) to fund his expedition to go West to find the East. (He was rejected several times by Isabella and Ferdinand because their advisers pointed out that his estimate of the diameter of the Earth was about 1/2 what the experts thought - they were in fact correct!) More recently, the American pioneers, and the American railroads, depended on government land grants.

    Nevertheless there is a difference. All of your examples fit the mold of people who, given or finding an advantage, ran with it and created something new, or had a dream and put together the resources to make it happen. Without Columbus, Spain would not have become such a major economic and political power - it had just essentially given up rights to most of Africa and the South Atlantic to the Portuguese after a military defeat. In fact, Ferdinand and Isabella were acting as VCs, with the expectation that they would never see Columbus again, but their situation was bad enough that it was worth trying this low-cost fling. It worked out pretty well (except arguably for the folks who lived here already...)

    Lots of other people had fathers who taught mathematics; lots of people have had all the right tools but never did anything with them. Heck, I'm a pretty good example - back in 1981 I came up with the idea of 3D printing (I worked in a group that built flatbed printers), and I even assembled some of the components I needed to build a prototype. But I never carried through with it. Maybe that was partly luck, and/or going a different direction, or whatever - but the fact remains that I could have created the 3D printing market 30 years ago.

    IMHO Obama's assertion that "you didn't build that" was IMHO a combination of economic illiteracy, stupidity, socialist idealism, and political "big lie" technique. Sure, every "great man" has a variety of supports that made it possible. But that does not counter the principle. Taken to its extreme, you can say that Columbus was no more important than the guy who baked his breakfast the morning he left Palos de la Frontera.

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    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  19. Re:We need a workers government by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Except under capitalism minorities and the poor are more empowered than ever.

    In America even the poor have cell phones and cars. What communist country can say the same thing? Access to food is so trivial here, yet in those places they'd be lucky if they have more than one meal in a given day.

    --
    Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
  20. We the people by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The opening line of Karl Mark's book..."From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". A succinct, compassionate, and efficient "prime directive" for any "we the people" if you ask me. Yet most adults know the devil is always in the details, for example China has dragged more people above the poverty line than the rest of the world combined in the last 40yrs, (coincidently 14yrs less than my age). China did that with a centrally planned economy. Of course they also put themselves in that the position of wide spread famine in the first place, ironically using the very same "system" of a centrally planning following a series of 5yr plans.

    Frankly a 14yo's opinions on comparative politics are about as insightful and original as a 14yo's opinions on birth control, it's mostly second hand knowledge that (like the Marxist slogan above) often bears little resemblance to the real world. However you do seem to have worked out that the "free market" is actually a set of rules that form a trading system for "we the people" (eg: property law), not some magical hand righting wrongs, just a different set of rules to what we use. The system we use says that the "free" in "free market" means anyone can participate in that market, what's not so clear is whether anyone is free NOT to participate. The alcohol market is a trivial example of a non-free market since some sections of the population are prohibited from buying it, and the rest are prohibited from selling it to them.

    Don't believe everything people tell you about Marx, Rand, Orwell, et al, go and read what they have to say. There's also a metric shitload of stuff on youtube from modern writers such as Hitchens, Vidal, Pinker, Feynman, Sagan, et al. I particularly like Pinker's latest stuff about the decline of violence over the last 1000yrs and I personally think the "Stanford prison experiments" will be seen as one of (if not The) most important insight into human nature to come out of the 20th century.

    Don't let "being wrong" stop you from thinking, the more angles you look at, the more picture's the kaleidoscope of the real world shows you. - refer to sig.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    1. Re:We the people by Capsaicin · · Score: 4, Informative

      The opening line of Karl Mark's book...

      It's an excerpt from Marx' Critique of the Gotha Programme.

      In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then [sic] can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs! [Emphasis added]

      The point being that To each according to his contribution was necessarily to be the appropriate principle until that higher phase be accomplished! I.e. simply the elimination of exploitation (in the technical Marxist sense of that word). As you say, don't believe everything people tell you about Marx and, I would add, be careful about taking these slogans out of context. Our friend here seems especially to have had his recall of reading of Kapital (or was it Grundrisse?) coloured by popular misconception.

      The system we use says that the "free" in "free market" means anyone can participate ...

      Well ... that 'free' means many things to many people. I certainly agree that it implies a freedom of anyone to participate free from qualification (apart from having the requisite wealth). IMO it requires additionally (or perhaps essentially) that the buyer and seller are free to agree between themselves on the price. Thus the market for theatre tickets is a free market only when it involves a scalper.

      What you say about China is insightful and often forgotten. Not that I'd want to live under their system mind ...

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  21. Re: what about by Bob9113 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just remember one thing about Atlas Shrugged: As mentioned in the preface, it's not about men as they are, it's men as they should be.

    Interesting -- seems like under the premise "men as they should be", everything from pure socialism to pure laissez-faire, or from pure anarchy to pure autarchy, would work. Any system works if the actors are perfectly informed and benevolent.

  22. Re: what about by Zaelath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IMHO Obama's assertion that "you didn't build that" was IMHO a combination of economic illiteracy, stupidity, socialist idealism, and political "big lie" technique.

    You make a rational, reasoned argument, then sign off with that straw man? I'm guessing you're not even taking it out of context like the GOP tried to.

    The "you didn't build that" was *directly* related to the infrastructure of an entire society that enables advancement, and the idea that you contribute back to that society, in the form of jobs (like Apple doesn't), or taxes (like Apple doesn't).

    I'm not saying Obama didn't fail miserably to express the sentiment clearly, but there's no "great man" that doesn't owe anything to anyone.