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Full Details of My Attempted Entrapment For Teaching Polygraph Countermeasures

George Maschke writes "In May of this year, I was the target of an attempted entrapment, evidently in connection with material support for terrorism. Marisa Taylor of McClatchy reported briefly on this in August. I've now published a full public accounting, including the raw source of the e-mails received and the IP addresses involved. Comments from Slashdot readers more technically savvy than I are welcome."

19 of 465 comments (clear)

  1. Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by DavidClarkeHR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Want to stay safe? Don't learn ANYTHING that the government doesn't explicitly approve.

    If you're living in the 40s, that means avoid learning about integration.
    In the 90s? avoid learning about marriage equality.
    Living in 2013? Don't learn about avoiding government interrogation.
    Living in 2015? Don't even THINK about avoiding surveillance.

    --
    - Nec Impar Pluribus, or so I'm told.
    1. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by PvtVoid · · Score: 5, Informative

      We would never have had PGP or encryption research outside government labs if everyone followed such rules.

      The way I see it, no one would be using encryption nowadays if Obama managed to be president in the nineties.

      Were you around in the nineties? That was when Clinton used CALEA to force telecoms to build the exact infrastructure that was exploited after 9/11 by Bush, and later Obama. That was when Clinton pushed the ultimately doomed "Clipper Chip", with all other strong encryption to be criminalized. Turns out, something as ham-handed as Clipper turned out to be un-necessary, since the NSA was just able to (apparently) subvert certification authorities and cripple hardware-based random number generators.

      If Clinton had allowed a secure digital infrastructure to be built in the first place, none of the current shenanigans would have been possible, or at least would have been way harder.

    2. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Were you around in the nineties? That was when Clinton used CALEA to force telecoms to build the exact infrastructure that was exploited after 9/11 by Bush, and later Obama."

      The lesson is clear: even if the current administration pushes something through while promising not to abuse it, that has absolutely no bearing on whether someone else will, later.

    3. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The way I see it, no one would be using encryption nowadays if Obama managed to be president in the nineties.

      Not before 1997, according to the age rules in the constitution. Since Obama was born in August 1961, this limits his eligibility for presidency to August 1996 onwards, which effectively means January 1997 onwards due to the schedule of presidencies in the US.

      I know I'm going to some sort of hell for trolls for posting this, but... couldn't he have just faked up his birth certificate with an earlier date on it?

    4. Re:Don't teach, and certainly don't learn ... by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you're living in the 40s, that means avoid learning about integration.

      Derivatives are fine, though.

  2. Two things to remember about polygraphs: by jcr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1) there is no such thing as a "lie detector". Polygraphs are voodoo.

    2) NEVER talk to the police.

    HTH,

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by ledow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So it's actually the WORST device in the world to use then.

      Because the people who you don't want to get into the job, the ones who know that it's a load of baloney and any idiot can "pass" the test, will. And the people who are innocent but have that "guilty fear" that comes with natural innocence will "fail".

      I'm sorry, but in my country, I'd laugh at you if you asked me to take one. And I'd probably be able to get you into the papers tomorrow in the funny section too, just to show you up. It's just that hilarious a concept. But then, to my knowledge, outside of very, very, very restricted professions we don't have work-prescribed drug testing or any of the other shit either (I don't do drugs, never have, but just the CONCEPT of someone demanding I take a drug test to work somewhere? Fuck off. And I work in education). When did your boss get to control your life?

      And for a job in a BANK? FFS. The US must be much more stupid than I suspected.

    2. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Despite the fact that most of the world knows this, there's still one country that thinks such things can be admissible in court."

      You don't mean the U.S., do you? Because to the best of my knowledge no jurisdiction in the U.S. allows polygraphs to be used as evidence against a defendant, without their consent. And they'd be stupid to consent.

      However, a positive polygraph result can be used in your favor, *IF* the judge will allow it.

    3. Re:Two things to remember about polygraphs: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

      "I'm sorry, but in my country, I'd laugh at you if you asked me to take one."

      You seem to have a strange idea of the United States. The job he was referring to is a private employment position for a bank, which is a privately-owned business. They can hire (or not) any security guard they want.

      Personally, I would laugh at them too. Same with pre-employment drug screening. I simply won't do that. (And the practice has fallen out of favor, anyway.) But remember: it is private parties who did these things; it had nothing to do with government.

      "When did your boss get to control your life?"

      For a long time, a lot of people in the U.S. let employers get away with this kind of thing. I don't know why. I don't put up with it, nor do any of my friends. It isn't like that so much, anymore. I think the employers finally figured out that they were chasing away all the smart people.

      "The US must be much more stupid than I suspected."

      If you're judging an entire country by one person's anecdote, you must be much more stupid than I expected.

  3. tacit admission by globaljustin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    either Polygraphs are bullshit or these charges should be dropped...

    by setting up the sting and charging the guys for what they did, they government is admitting that it is possible to fool the polygraph

    if it is possible to fool the polygraph it leaves no doubt that the polygraph is not scientific or useful

    by proving these men guilty, the prosecution simultaneously proves that the lie detector is a farce and negates the logical need for the entire charade in the first place

    a good lawyer could get a not guilty verdict IMHO

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  4. Dousing rods by benjfowler · · Score: 5, Informative

    Some fraudster in the UK went down recently for selling dousing rods as bomb detectors to the Iraqis. There were quite a few people credulous twits in the media who went after skeptics who were against this transparent ripoff, but it took a good ten years for enough momentum to build, to get this investigated, and for the criminal who ran this, to get charged with anything.

    As far as I can tell, polygraphy is just as full of woo as phrenology, and it was invented roughly around the same time. I do wonder how long it'll take for the stupidity to be debunked sufficiently hard, for the public outcry to overcome the True Believers and have this snake oil abolished?

  5. Re:Why do they go through all the trouble? by jcochran · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The answer to that question is quite simple. Some years back, I had to take a polygraph and frankly, it felt as if a "game" was being played where I didn't know the rules. There were some issues with my test so they rescheduled me for a followup. Since I didn't like the feeling that there was a game being played, I spent the time before the follow up researching polygraphy. Turns out that there's a lot of information on the subject and I also found out that there was a classified government study on the effectiveness of polygraphs. I didn't see the contents of that study, but [i]if[/i] that study reflected the information available in the public literature and [i]if[/i] I were to be a classification authority, I too would have classified the study. The reason is because the public literature boils down to the following.

    Polygraphy as a tool for distinguishing truth from lies is totally worthless. However, as a tool for eliciting voluntary confessions from naive subjects, it's quite effective.

    So as long as it's kept mysterious and secret, it's quite useful. But once the pool of naive subjects is gone (and they would be gone if the reality of polygraphy were widespread), then that tool becomes worthless.

  6. Re:We need a workers government by radiumsoup · · Score: 5, Insightful

    so far, there have been no implementations of the Communist ideology *without* suppression of free people to the extreme of mass murdering the dissenters.

  7. Re:Ha ha ha by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Fah. I was only 14 when I did a comparative analysis of communism and capitalism. Having some background in electronics theory and associated systems approach, I was able to demonstrate that communism is always doomed, because it is not a stable economic system. All stable systems must have both positive and negative feedback loops. (The screech when you put a microphone too close to a speaker is one example of a runaway system, that finally blows something if not corrected.) The classic aphorism of communism is "too each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities". This is essentially two uncoupled, undamped systems with unlimited response - some people have "unlimited needs" and work the system; other people will be worked to death.

    I later discovered that in the real world, this lack of feedback in the economic system is dealt with in two ways - feedback through the political system (corruption of various sorts, political appointments, etc.), and through the black market - a hidden ad hoc capitalist mechanism, often with a political component (bribing the officials).

    So regardless of capitalism, communism is a dead end, and makes no mathematical, much less economic, sense. There is a kind of 'communism of the rich' which is analogous to what techies do with open source, and what Star Trek assumed due to the Replicator technology. It's basically, "to each according to his needs, there's plenty to go around."

    While capitalism has its issues, it is a dynamic complex adaptive system where the excesses can be curbed by _reasonable_ regulation. The complaints that Marx had back in the 1800s were in response to the excesses of what was basically a post-feudal era where companies were generally owned by one, or a small set, of people with zero requirement to take into account any public opinion, and could act as feudal barons. The rise of incorporation has moved capitalism increasingly toward an economically democratic model, where every company must take into account the political and economic environment.

    In practice, no communist government has resulted in 'free people', except in the sense (as an old Soviet joke goes), "we are free - to work ourselves to death"

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  8. Re: what about by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Informative

    My reply to both you and the parent is that IMHO most people (including Greenspan, and all of Wall Street) misinterpret Rand. If you recall, the protagonists in each of her books is a builder, not a financier. They were virulently opposed to those who used manipulation of the economic and political system for their own gains. Her books were really about the importance of the creative and technical versus the political.

    I think it was Nietzche ("Man and Superman"?) who proposed the dichotomy between masters and slaves. I have always felt that he was wrong, that while those two groups may exist, there is a third group, the technical/creative, who does not want to be master and refuses to be slave.

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  9. Re:The US of A by mysidia · · Score: 5, Informative

    Try asking anyone under 30 if they know what the phrase "Papers Please!" denotes

    It's just two words... It's a lot of things.

    It's when the Military place soldiers in a natural disaster area such as New Orleans after Katrina requiring you to show military ID or proof of government authorization, to avoid arrest, or having vehicles impounded

    It's an attack onAmerican birthright citizenship

    It's two words that succinctly describe America's dark future.

    Personal and Professional Encounters with Surveillance

    anti-state.com: May I See Your Papers Please?

    It's what Mr. Hiibel of Nevada went to jail for refusing to comply with

    It's what police do now to ordinary people minding their own business.

    It's congress work on the REAL ID act

    It's a name given to a section of an Arizona law upheld by the Supreme court.

    It's the name of a complaint against changes the US is making starting this Fall 2013 to further restrict the free travel of Americans and greatly increase the difficulty of US citizens getting passports

    It's the name of a dystopian video game about communist immigration control.

    It's the name of an anti-TSA blog

    It's a request you comply with when asked by the police; otherwise, you face immediate arrest.

  10. Re:Ha ha ha by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Informative

    No. Capitalism has a host of feedback mechanisms - supply and demand being the archetypical one. Like any good complex adaptive system, when a new 'species' (for example a new technology and resulting new market) appears, the other entities in the system dynamically adapt. This is very similar to the evolutionary ecosystems model. Political feedback, to my mind, should mainly be of the sort that prevents fish that are too big from swimming up small creeks and blocking water flow. (I know that's a really obscure analogy, but I like it.

    A major distortion that exists presently is what I would consider incorrect government policies that encourage near-monopolies and effective monopolies. In the US, anti-trust laws are directed primarily at maintaining two things: preventing unfair advantage of a company's monopoly position, and maintaining a fiction of competition among two to four dominant players.

    If I had my druthers, I would prevent any company with more than 10% of a market to buy or take control of any other market participant for any reason.

    From my own studies of free enterprise as a CAS, it appears to me that if any company controls more than perhaps 20% of a market, or if fewer than 10 or so companies constitute a large percentage of a market, they have effectively too much monopoly power. I have not done the research in detail - I was prepared to work on the PhD in Economics and this was going to be my area of research, but I did not pursue it at that time, so these are 'back of the envelope' numbers.

    Nevertheless, it's instructive to use ecosystems as an analogy. A climax forest may have only a dozen or so tree species but it is very rare for it to have as few as four or five. Aspen trees are interesting - a particular aspen grove may in fact be a single genetic individual. But the environment varies enough that this grove can not take over 100 square miles. This is because the local environment changes constantly, so the area next to the Aspen grove may be better for maple, or fir, or scrub grassland.

    So to maintain the maximum diversity, and dynamic adaptability and efficiency, the role of government regulation is absolutely _not_ to provide a single market. (I.e., do _not_ normalize the laws across all jurisdictions.) That made sense when the economies of scale truly applied - it took a lot of money to build a steel mill. But economies of scale now are primarily tools of capitalist domination. If a large company is truly more competive than small companies, then this should be the case across many jurisdictions with differing local rules. Normalizing the rules across jurisdictions is unfairly (IMHO) handicapping smaller businesses, which as it happens often have lower unit costs these days than large companies. Case in point - labor productivity at a MacDonald's franchise is substantially _lower_ than at the old mom and pop hamburger joint - this is due to two things - MacDonald's already made your burger so it's faster, and every MacDonald's burger is the same - no guessing. But both of those are obsolete criteria in today's world of freely available information.

    At one time, the number of jurisdictions was large, and the information flow between them was relatively slow, so this was not such a large problem. But now we are close to having a single global economic model. This puts the entire economic system at constant risk - e.g. "Too big to fail". This idea is in itself a condemnation of the legal structure we have allowed to develop. And now with the availability of incredibly fast means to rationalize markets, that legal structure is, oddly enough, a bad idea. Today we need more diverse markets, not more similar markets. And that is where the political factor comes in. Or, as I've said to many of my friends, "All decisions should be made as locally as feasible," - whether economic or political.

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  11. Re: what about by garyebickford · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The romance of the creator having to deal with the political realities. In our own minds, we are all Mozart, Tesla, and John Galt. :)

    --
    It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
  12. We the people by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The opening line of Karl Mark's book..."From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". A succinct, compassionate, and efficient "prime directive" for any "we the people" if you ask me. Yet most adults know the devil is always in the details, for example China has dragged more people above the poverty line than the rest of the world combined in the last 40yrs, (coincidently 14yrs less than my age). China did that with a centrally planned economy. Of course they also put themselves in that the position of wide spread famine in the first place, ironically using the very same "system" of a centrally planning following a series of 5yr plans.

    Frankly a 14yo's opinions on comparative politics are about as insightful and original as a 14yo's opinions on birth control, it's mostly second hand knowledge that (like the Marxist slogan above) often bears little resemblance to the real world. However you do seem to have worked out that the "free market" is actually a set of rules that form a trading system for "we the people" (eg: property law), not some magical hand righting wrongs, just a different set of rules to what we use. The system we use says that the "free" in "free market" means anyone can participate in that market, what's not so clear is whether anyone is free NOT to participate. The alcohol market is a trivial example of a non-free market since some sections of the population are prohibited from buying it, and the rest are prohibited from selling it to them.

    Don't believe everything people tell you about Marx, Rand, Orwell, et al, go and read what they have to say. There's also a metric shitload of stuff on youtube from modern writers such as Hitchens, Vidal, Pinker, Feynman, Sagan, et al. I particularly like Pinker's latest stuff about the decline of violence over the last 1000yrs and I personally think the "Stanford prison experiments" will be seen as one of (if not The) most important insight into human nature to come out of the 20th century.

    Don't let "being wrong" stop you from thinking, the more angles you look at, the more picture's the kaleidoscope of the real world shows you. - refer to sig.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.