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Third Tesla Fire Means Feds To Begin Review
cartechboy writes "In early October, a Tesla caught on fire in Washington state — and that created a little bit of a stir. Then just before Halloween a second Tesla caught fire. Yesterday, a third Model S caught fire in Tennessee. With the third fire in the books, all happening in similar fashion, today federal investigators are saying they are going to take a look at the situation more closely. As electric car maker's stock shares continue to tumble, some are saying the fires aren't a big deal."
But I thought fuel cells were what was unsafe not Tesla cars? Isn't that what Musk wanted us all to believe?
Probably no one would be talking about them.
How many Tesla S's have been delivered?
Anybody?
Best # I can find is 5500 last quarter, from Forbes.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
In the UK there are only 15,000 car fires per year (discounting arson). Obviously gasoline is safer.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120919132719/http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/894/FireStatisticsUnitedKingdom2003PDF1724Kb_id1124894.pdf
Look here and compare yourself. Gasoline is more dangerous: http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=car+fire+gasoline+accident
Model S fires are extremely photogenic, but as far as I can tell, all three of these fires involved debris (or firefighters) puncturing the battery shield and hitting the battery, rather than something spontaneous. I'm not an expert by any means, but I'd hazard a guess that the results would have been similar with a gasoline powered car.
Tesla has made a statement (8:49pm):
“We have been in contact with the driver, who was not injured and believes the car saved his life. Our team is on its way to Tennessee to learn more about what happened. We will provide more information when we’re able to do so.”
Source: http://insideevs.com/third-tesla-model-s-fire-in-past-5-weeks-breaks-out-after-accident/
Maybe he can get the Boeing engineers to help him figure it out.
Each of these accidents have defined causes, and the resulting fires are not unreasonable based on the cause. Puncturing a battery with tons of force might just cause a fire. These are not spontaneously combusting. No one was hurt, even the guy that crashed in Mexico. Investigate away, but there really is nothing to see here. The upside is that I can afford more stock now.
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082007_tesla-ceo-musk-boeing-787-batteries-inherently-unsafe
Utterly meaningless, unless we see info like number of incidents per car of that make and model on the road; and what the root causes are. Until then, I'm holding judgement.
The lack of mention makes me think this is a media beatup.
They were good enough to put a man on the Moon (the single most important achievement ever according to most slashers), but they can't review an electrical problem?
Just ask anyone that races R/C. You must treat them with respect, charge them carefully, and never puncture them. Once you break any of these rules, they catch on fire. In spite of this, you only rarely see a lithium battery fire in R/C racing because most racers know how to maintain them properly and when to dispose of them (properly).
Then again, Tesla, in their drive for performance, built these cars with their batteries mere inches from the surface of the road. No gasoline car has their tank that low and even R/C cars have them higher in the chassis and more protected from the surface.
A lot of people rebuke this by saying "Gas cars catch on fire after crashes too!"
The difference here is that the Tesla's didn't crash, they ran over something. When's the last time you heard of a gas powered car catching fire because it ran over something without crashing.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Whenever you store a lot of energy in a small space and have the potential for rapid release then there will always be a fire risk.
Gasoline, electricity, kinetic energy -- it all poses a fire risk in the event of an uncontrolled release of that energy.
If you want 100% safety then walk.
Uh-oh, I forgot about the risk of spontaneous human combustion!
We're stuffed!
Damn, they even confiscated my asbestos underwear!
What are we to do now?
So now feds are the experts on high-tech cars?
Someone is sure an expert on electric car fires, gas car competitors?
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
In the U.K., there are 15,000 car fires per year, and ~28.7 million cars on the road. Tesla has had 3 car fires out of 21,500 cars on the road. The fires:car ratio is about 4:1 overall:Model S. That said, most of the Model S's haven't been on the road a full year, but if we assume they've been in service an average of the three months, then the overall rate of combustion is essentially identical.
$_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
I'm not typically prone to suggesting conspiracies, but we've already seen cartel-like behavior from establishment car manufacturers and dealers as they lobby states to ban direct-from-manufacturer car sales. Considering the bizarre timeline (3 in a couple months, all of a sudden?), the tolerances and safety features surrounding the batteries, and the publicity that all of the victims milked with copious amounts of photos and interviews, could this be an illicit attempt to get Tesla banned?
Recalls due to manufacturing defects that cause car fires have happened many times.
Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for the night. But give a man a Tesla Model S and he may be warm for the rest of his life!
They were good enough to put a man on the Moon (the single most important achievement ever according to most slashers), but they can't review an electrical problem?
This is the very same government project where the crew compartment had a flammable 100% oxygen environment and the hatch had to be pulled inward against internal pressure, a pressure that increases during a fire. Where three astronauts were trapped and killed during testing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1
Also in more modern times where the government agency involved was more concerned with politics than flight crew safety. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster
They were good enough to burn the crew of Apollo 1 to death, too. I'm sorry but what is with all this fed worship coming from the US lately? You guys want big, central government? Be careful what you wish for...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Good thing they don't do aircraft that way. You can't get out of the damn thing if it catches on fire, at least not and live to tell about it.
Fed = grownup. ROFLMAO
The bad wiring, the large amount of flammable materials, and 100% O2 environment was obviously an exercise in bad judgement. But the inward hatch design itself, though dangerous in hindsight, was to originally used improve safety for modules landing in the ocean. IIRC an outward opening door design almost got one of the gemini pilots killed.
But that's besides the point. The government didn't build the Apollo 1 command module, that was contracted out.
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
They've got a 1/4" plate of steel shielding the battery ...
I'm not 100% sure but isn't such a skid plate protecting a gas tank normally only found in off-road vehicles? Seems like the Tesla offers more protection than a normal gasoline car.
Tesla need to switch to fuel cells (even if Elon Musk doesn't seem to like them)
The other auto manufacturers did much to interfere and even sabotage the Tucker. While the Tucker had enough of its own problems, some were suspect and other problems came from the outside when it came to resources for materials and a bit of bad press.
I acknowledge that the fires could very well be from an actual problem in this car, but with as much other crap Tesla has gone through, I wouldn't entirely rule out various forms of sabotage. We've already seen what Texas Auto Dealers Association can do.
So now feds are the experts on high-tech cars?
Someone is sure an expert on electric car fires, gas car competitors?
Those competitors are also offering all electric vehicles:
General Motors: Spark
Ford: Focus
Fiat (Chrysler): 500e
Toyota: RAV 4
Honda: Fit
Nissan: Leaf
I believe it's actually aluminum, but they've also designed the battery compartment to point any fire forward away from the passenger compartment. If a gas tank ruptures you're in a very dangerous situation and have very good odds of not living let along walking away unharmed. In the case of a Tesla, 3 for 3 have been able to walk out unscathed. The Mexico fire was from a Model S that had blasted through a concrete barricade while exceeding 100MPH and coming to rest smashed against some trees. I challenge you to find any car of any year, any make, gas, electric, etc. perform as well. No one thinks twice about these very common incidents in gas autos.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
So far all of these have been caused by the car striking a piece of metal that pierces the battery and viola... fire. Makes sense to me. I don't really like the company and Elan Musk is an arrogant prick but I'm pretty sure that if the same thing happened to my gas car, and metal pierced the gas tank, the resulting fire would be a hell of a lot worse that what I've seen in the Tesla cars.
...and how he's not a modern day Prometheus. All this time I thought he was just selling an expensive, mostly-coal-powered, toy for the rich (for whom the cost of gasoline is little concern). But wouldn't you know it, he really is trying to bring fire to the people!
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
I'm not 100% sure but isn't such a skid plate protecting a gas tank normally only found in off-road vehicles? Seems like the Tesla offers more protection than a normal gasoline car.
Yeah, I was going to say, "good luck comparing a 1/4" steel plate to a .035" fuel line wall, but there may be a confounding factor - the Model S has an awesome air suspension that allows the car to sink down to (IIRC) 2" above the road surface at highway speeds, to maximize fuel efficiency. That's like a Formula One race car, but government roads suck and Formula One tracks don't. And it's unlikely that many fuel lines are that close to the road.
Maybe they just need to firmware upgrade the things to be slightly less efficient - there's a manual override anyway for people who understand what they are doing.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Damnit I thought I=P/V
To be fair, they did test the flammability of the materials. They just didn't do it right... in a pressurized O2 environment. After the fire, they did the tests correctly, and to their horror, found several things to be "highly flammable". (the glue on the back of the massive amount of Velcro for one)
The inward opening hatch was to improve safety in space, where, under no circumstances do you want that door to have any way of accidentally opening.
What Fed Worship? The Fed is despise when somebody's mail is misdelivered, and if anybody in the government is corrupt it's treated as a sign that God wants a Theocratic Anarchy.
Every technology has growing pains, and EVs are no different. I'm sure that there are more than a couple Oil and Combustion automotive people making a whole lot out of this story, like those that bitched that if the cars were submerged for over a day the batteries would catch fire.
Do you really believe that Tesla does not have it in their best interests to "Fix" the problems? Come now, I think you are one of those suckers PT is attributed (incorrectly) talking about.
Feds want to jump in? Sure, why not! They help investigate issues with Boeing, Northrop, etc.. More eyes on the puzzle will help find the cause so they can fix it.
The real issue here, I hinted at above. People want you to believe that Oil is the only way that the world can run. They spend billions of dollars that they fuck people over to get telling you how much you have to have it. Anyone with a brain realizes that Oil is both finite and screwing up the environment. Letting companies fix issues that remove our dependencies helps everyone except those fuckers that start wars for more oil.
My advice, be patient and let them fix it. Help them fix it if you really feel like you want to jump in and do something. By whining and complaining about the evils of EVs you maintain the status quo, which has quickly been leading us down a nasty stink hole.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
As opposed to a country without a government agency to review poor product designs and force recalls in the interest of public safety?
You want small, decentralized government? History already shows us what a shit show that was.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
So now feds are the experts on high-tech cars?
Why yes... I read it on the web.
As I think about the issue I am reminded how dangerous
large battery assemblies are in submarines and also in
central offices of POTs telco companies.
I suspect there will be a lot of pressure on Tesla. Tesla
is in the best position to upset the auto makers apple cart
and to some degree big oil, yep a lot of vested interest folk
will be after them.
Still it make sense to review the product. A big pile of
batteries should be well protected.
The NTSB does a good job on aircraft accidents....
but this is new turf... who knows.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
That it burns rubber *before* you hit the accelerator.
Durr the guvrment is stuped lolz
From my understanding they used 100% O2 because that's what the used when the thing actually went into space. They used 100% O2 in space because that meant they could use less pressure which means they could make the capsule lighter. (Since the heavier it is the more fuel you need which makes the whole thing more difficult.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
They are so photogenic because they aren't dangerous. Regular car fire with gasoline and everyone is standing 200' away because of how dangerous car fires are (they frequently explode when enough fuel has vaporized from the temps). With the Tesla you can probably stand 20' away and take nice pretty pictures without fear of having a piece of car embedded into your forehead.
After 2 hours digging through Google, the cars in the article are the only cases of a Tesla Model S catching fire that I can find..
I would love for any of you to prove me wrong on this one.
Good thing they don't do aircraft that way. You can't get out of the damn thing if it catches on fire, at least not and live to tell about it.
These guys disagree... A plane full of skydivers got hit by another plane and caught fire. No fatalities.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
"Fed worship"? Strawman off the starboard bow, Captain!
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
...in her Nissan years ago. It shot through the floor and barely missed her, she's lucky she wasn't killed. In a Tesla, the skidplate and battery will protect you. Sure, the car will catch on fire, but you can escape. So a Tesla is actually safer than a conventional car, it will sacrifice itself to protect you. Better have good insurance.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Unfortunately, the public are thoroughly ignorant about automobiles.
Vehicle fires are VERY common but when a gas-engine car lights up it's considered routine. The insurance co pays off the total loss (even small fires quickly put out are typically totals), the vehicle goes to salvage, and no one thinks much of it.
Tesla should ignite one of their vehicles to demonstrate the KIND of fire you get with a battery puncture vs. an automoblie engine fire and fuel tank fire. Remove the mystery, because when Jane and Joe Dumbass hear "fire" they THINK "Hollywood action movie inferno".
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Musk must take a walk from the Stadium and into his Tesla S car to later crash and burn on the i-5 in LA.
"No Body Walk ... In LA" ... a lyric line from 'Missing Persons.' Do you remember love?
QED
Wow. All these bizarre electric car fires are a big deal. Soon, we're going to see a weird new kind of insurance called Vehicle Fire Insurance. Also, car manufacturers are going to have to start installing these new-fangled firewalls into cars.
Ironically, it was Gus Grissom who's Mercury capsule sank on landing after its hatch bolts inexplicably blew. The investigation and redesign resulted in the Apollo 1 hatch, which opened inward. IIRC the cabin was not just pure O2 but was actually over-pressured for a completely different test for leaks in the cabin. [WTF?] Of course once the fire started heating the air, the overpressure would have been insanely high. No human could have opened the hatch against that force.
"Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
...ten Ferrari 458 Italias burst in to flames in the first few months?
"False hope is why we'll never run out of natural resources!" - Lewis Black
Big, central government? Well, excuse me, Mr Cruz. Have any political leanings do we?
I really don't understand why every fire in a Tesla car is so news worthy. According to the NFPA (http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles) there were an average of 152,300 car fires between 2006 and 2010. That's the same as 417 per day, and about 17 car fires per hour.
Cars catch fire. There have been somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 Telsa Model S's on the road. (3/15000) * 100 = 0.02% failure rate.
Meanwhile there are about 250 million cars on the road in the US last I looked. (152300/250000000) * 100 = 0.06% failure rate for cars on average.
So even with there being 3 fires, they are below the average. Additionally, there have been zero injuries in the 3 fires so far.
So... why is this news?
Actually I've personally seen at least 3 cars spontaneously catch fire while sitting in traffic or driving. No crash or impact or driving over anything required.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
That really is too low for typical US roads. What kind of road debris wouldn't you catch at that height? All it would take is one jagged edged pothole with a raised edge and the shock from hitting it would do a nice can-opener job. (And I thought 6" off the ground was quite low for the factory spoiler on my car. I know some drives and potholes make me anticipate that dreaded crunching or scraping noise. But at least it's only plastic being caught in my case, the actual chassis rides somewhat higher.)
If it's something as simple as this, perhaps they should put out an advisory notice to raise the ride height.
If the feds could investigate Toyota over "unintentional acceleration" and make a year-long farce out of old people hitting the wrong pedal or using cheap aftermarket rugs just in time to help a flailing GM, then the same Detroit money can be used to "investigate" Tesla.
Hmm, can you tell me how all the private corporations were pressurizing their Moon spaceships in the 1960s?
And they were all fires after a reinforced steel plate was punctured in an accident. Big whoop.
Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
This is going to be tough for Tesla now that the feds are involved, and I can relate. My alternative fuel car, based on a glyceryl trinitrate fuel, would be blowing the Tesla off the road if it weren't for a minor fuel storage and shock absorber problem. Damn feds with their quibbly little safety regulations won't even let me drive the prototype on public roads. Progress is not about perfection.
Highly flammable... somewhat of an understatement.
In the environment inside the capsule you could burn aluminum like wood, cloth goes up like it's soaked in gasoline, plastics will burn like they're made of wax.
The materials inside the capsule weren't highly flammable so much as the environment itself was.
It's not the battery catching fire that is the problem. It is going to happen if it dammaged. What we need is the battery to eject its self from the car to prevent the entire car from burning. Just have an air bag shoot it out the back! :)
short tesla stock
buy tesla car
crash telsa car
profit
You see that guy who lit a cigarette while charging his car a while back....
However their customers wanted.
The plate is aluminum. There are vents in the middle of the plate directed down towards the ground in case a fire should break out to direct it away from the passenger compartment. There are additional fire safety features as well. The battery pack is broken down into 16 separate sections with a firewall between them and the batteries are surrounded with a substance that reacts indothermically to fire to produce a fire resistant foam.
In any event, it takes a lot of force to penetrate the aluminum plate. The aluminum plate also adds significant rigidity to the passenger compartment to help in the case of an accident.
Also, unlike most cars, the underside of the Tesla is very smooth, making it much less likely that things can get lodged up under the car. Some cars such as the Tesla I own have active suspension that lowers the car on the freeway which might increase the odds of damage from debris though it isn't lowered as much as many cars I've seen.
As the owner of a Tesla model S I do not have any fear of fire from the car. It's a lot safer than any other car I've owned.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
The car isn't that low when it's lowered. It's still a lot higher than many cars I see on the road. At standard height I have fewer problems scraping with my model S than I've had with my Prius, for example.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
Yup - pressurized 100% oxygen will burn virtually anything that isn't already oxidized. Oxygen just loves electrons.
Stick a piece of food in a bomb calorimeter, pressurize with 100% O2, and ignite, and when you open it up about the only thing you'll find inside is a hint of condensation and a tiny bit of rusted fuse wire. The astronauts themselves were highly flammable materials in that environment.
Sure, less flammable material was a good start, but operating the capsule at above atmospheric pressure in 100% oxygen was a mistake. In space it would have been below atmospheric pressure. They should have maintained the same partial pressure of O2 - probably would be better for the astronauts health as well.
Trash a $70,000 car just to get rid of a viola?
Yeah, that's a fair trade. Now, let's talk about saxophones...
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Please do not compare the government of the United States of America back in the 1960's to one that is now.
It is totally unfair.
The government of the United States of America of today can't even launch a website properly.
The two following stories which appeared in Slashdot can tell you how bad the United States government has turned out to be ...
http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/10/28/125207/why-cant-big-government-launch-a-website
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/11/07/154201/healthcaregov-official-resigns-website-still-a-disaster
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
As anyone knows, when tech danger threatens, the warp core can be ejected and/or the saucer section separated.
Why not follow this idea in designing autos powered by finicky unstable batteries?
If the temperature in one or more individual cells passes a critical threshold, and it threatens to burn up your garage, home and property, then a system should be able to rapidly eject the battery core safely onto your neighbor's property.
-- I break fur animals!
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
(and same thing in the Luxembourgish city Esch-sur-Alzette, next to the French border...)
Hey, there is some space to have a government not at either extreme end of the spectrum...just saying...
I read elsewhere that the plate was steel - that was mentioned in the reporting on the one that had struck metal debris at highway speeds.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Maybe people just need to stop running over steel beams, or driving through concrete barricades.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I'm amazed that we don't have more gasoline fire incidents. It's really everywhere and extremely flammable. This would seem to be a testament to the ability of all concerned to design all the gasoline handling systems very well.
It's also a sign that the gasoline internal combustion engine is a really mature and ubiquitous technology. The designers of all the systems involved know what works.
Relatively portable high energy content batteries are much less mature, and the lithium batteries even more cutting edge.
I have a tech/nerd's (maybe over) confidence in tech/nerds tesla that they can reduce the likelyhood of future fires. We'll see.
For one data point or an anecdote my mom's gasoline car spontaneously caught fire while she was driving it. Turns out a rodent had built a nest on the manifold. The car was totaled and no one was hurt.
That's true. Although, since the extremes are anarchy and communism, I don't think that we're in much danger of being pushed over the edge by having a government agency that makes sure products are safe.
I'll have to remember this next time someone starts complaining about the NSA.
Okay, fire.....
But seriously, the driver of fire #2 went over a roundabout, through a wall, and hit a tree and was uninjured.
I'm not sure the average car would have left the driver alive.
***
That said, I do think there may be a need for revision. But I am almost hoping this lowers their stock to the point I can buy some.
It was NOT old people hitting the wrong pedal. Sorry...
Parachutes! That's cheating!
So now feds are the experts on high-tech cars?
Someone is sure an expert on electric car fires, gas car competitors?
Those competitors are also offering all electric vehicles: General Motors: Spark Ford: Focus Fiat (Chrysler): 500e Toyota: RAV 4 Honda: Fit Nissan: Leaf
What about
Shell
Standard Oil
Aramco
BP
???
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Except, of course, when competitors use and lobby for fake "safety" concerns in order to hurt competitors, or when politicians drum up fake "safety" concerns in order to get votes.
They should have maintained the same partial pressure of O2
Transitioning from an atmospheric pressure oxygen/nitrogen mix to low pressure pure oxygen is going to be a lot more complex than transition from atmospheric pressure pure oxygen to low pressure pure oxygen. Screw up that transition process and you could end up with the PPO2 dropping to deadly levels.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
No, the frame is aluminum, the bottom plate of the battery pack is '1/4" steel'. You can be sure Elon is consulting a metallurgist/materials engineer on this (probably already has) to make this plate with the ideal properties, whether that means a manganese, vanadium, titanium, or whatever (non-brittle) formulation, and some re-engineering is going on now that the company has some experience with road hazards outside the lab environment. This experience is critical and is only gained over time, so give them a break! Recall all the new military jets that had issues after they went into service.
So now feds are the experts on high-tech cars?
Someone is sure an expert on electric car fires, gas car competitors?
Those competitors are also offering all electric vehicles: General Motors: Spark Ford: Focus Fiat (Chrysler): 500e Toyota: RAV 4 Honda: Fit Nissan: Leaf
What about Shell Standard Oil Aramco BP
They'll supply the natural gas used to generate the electricity.
How do you maximize FUEL efficiency in an electric car (sarcasm!!)?