Slashdot Mirror


Sen. Chuck Schumer Seeks To Extend Ban On 'Undetectable' 3D-Printed Guns

SonicSpike writes with this snippet from The Guardian: "As the technology to print 3D firearms advances, a federal law that banned the undetectable guns is about to expire. The New York senator Chuck Schumer says he is seeking an extension of the law before it expires on 9 December. Schumer said the technology of so-called 3D printing has advanced to the point where anyone with $1,000 and an internet connection can access the plastic parts that can be fitted into a gun. Those firearms cannot be detected by metal detectors or x-ray machines. Schumer says that means anyone can download a gun cheaply, then take the weapons anywhere, including high-security areas. The Democrat is pushing the extension along with Senators Patrick Leahy of Vermont and Bill Nelson of Florida. The effort was announced on Sunday."

28 of 550 comments (clear)

  1. Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by __aasehi2499 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From those who kill it in the name of defending it.

    1. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by Jhon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would like to see a ban against completely ineffectual laws. How effective were the "bans" on guns in movie theaters, malls and schools?

    2. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      No American jurisdiction that I'm aware of (even the anti-gun New York State, where I currently reside) bans firearms within movie theaters or malls. Those are private property, and private property owners are free to allow or prohibit firearms. A prohibition by the property owner may or may not have force of law, depending on the jurisdiction. Here in New York, "no guns allowed" signs have no force of law, outside of trespassing, i.e., if they ask you to leave and you refuse you've committed a crime. They're effectively in the same league as the sign that says "shirts and shoes required". Other jurisdictions (Ohio, Texas, Tennessee, to name a few) give such signs the force of law, and you can lose your concealed carry license and face criminal charges if you ignore them.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by Jhon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok. Lets have that conversation. I notice you don't mention schools. How effective have those bans been for schools?

      Many of the mass shootings were in "gun free zones". Ok, lets suppose there was no 'force of law' behind that. Would that have made a difference if there were? If so, why hasn't it with schools?

      Banning guns will not work in our culture. Even supposing you can "ban" all guns, the shear volume of guns in the wild will assure there presence indefinitely. Remember, with a modest amount of care, guns can last centuries. "Attrition" just isn't an option.

      Find another solution.

    4. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by operagost · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those are private property, and private property owners are free to allow or prohibit firearms.

      How long is that going to last when property owners aren't allowed to sell 16 ounce sodas or allow smoking?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by cffrost · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From those who kill [liberty] in the name of defending it.

      Schumer has no interest in liberty; he's one of the most hardcore authoritarians in the Senate. Why these assholes don't have term limits is beyond my comprehension — Feinstein (with her spy-fetishist "oversight") is good example of how too much time in office results in power-madness and opportunities to become corrupt.

      I'm not just picking on Democrats here; (I'm further left/libertarian than Jill Stein;) Ds and Rs are all right-authoritarians in my eyes. Amongst them, though, Schumer takes the cake when it comes to pissing on the Bill of Rights (and not just the Second Amendment). I remember some years back, he voted for a "Juvenile Justice" bill to prosecute more kids as adults in order to extend their sentences, yet with no provisions to grant kids greater liberty in exchange for this added responsibility.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    6. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I love the quote of "anyone with $1,000 and an internet connection can access the plastic parts that can be fitted into a gun."

      Anyone with $1,000 and an internet connection can get a gun made of good 'ol steel, which would perform massively better. In fact, you don't even need the $1,000. $500 would get you a very nice handgun in a private party sale.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    7. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by Jhon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "It is possible to make background checks and document weapon sales."
      This is already done. It's been ineffectual.

      "It is possible to impose limitations on the purchaser of such weapons to mitigate the risk their tools pose to the community."
      This is already done. It's been ineffectual.

      "It is possible to limit the characteristics of privately-owned weapons."
      This is already done. It's been ineffectual.

      "Rational people can understand that there are multiple, legitimate perspectives on the question, and that allows a dialog capable of finding balance among the opposing views. "
      Agreed. However, when what has been done in the past has been ineffectual, how does 'doubling down' on an ineffective policy help move the ball?

      Further, we cannot and should not legislate from passion. To pass laws after a "tragedy" inflames the passions of people only serves to enact extreme laws.

      Maybe -- just MAYBE we can talk about ANOTHER approach.

    8. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone with $1,000 and an internet connection can get a gun made of good 'ol steel, which would perform massively better. In fact, you don't even need the $1,000. $500 would get you a very nice handgun in a private party sale.

      $500? Try about $200 for an older six-shot revolver. And as far as 'untraceable' goes... this senator clearly is a total retard when it comes to understanding forensics. First, ballistics analysis becomes significantly more inaccurate with each shot; So unless you fire the gun during a crime, and then don't fire it again until they recover it, ballistics won't be of much help in a prosecution. They'll be able to throw up a lot of circumstantial evidence, but a good lawyer can put a pin in that easily enough. Secondly, most guns sold today do have serial numbers, and that's probably what he was referring to. Unfortunately, not all manufacturers put that serial number on in a way that is forensically recoverable after it is filed off or removed. If it is stamped; that is, imprinted, then it likely is. But if the serial number is raised/embossed, then forget it. Many are stamped, but not all are. Especially not older guns. As well, it's typically only the receiver that is stamped with a serial number, as this is what the law considers the actual 'firearm' part of the gun. However, depending again on make and model, a receiver is not difficult to construct from equipment available at your hardware store -- and yes, for less than $1000 too.

      His argument doesn't hold water. The problem with 3D printers is that it would put a lot of businesses, well, out of business. And the biggest potential buyers of 3D printers is actually your local hardware and auto stores that right now have to pay a small fortune (which then you get to as well) ordering specialty parts out of a catalog. The entire after-market auto parts empire would deflate to maybe half its size if people could just bring in the broken part, and the store scans it in, or finds a match in a database, and then fires up the printer. 1 hour later, viola -- you have yourself a new plastic part for your car. And it doesn't cost you $60, but maybe $15 instead.

      This, right here, is why this senator is pushing it. Lending credence to this theory -- look at some of his other proposals: backup cams in all cars, a bill to ban rental cars, extensive markings and ID on parts, and the list goes on. A quick look at his campaign contributors is all the more proof you need .. he's a paid shill for the auto industry.

      Oh yes, firearms bad. 3d printers, terrorism, blah blah. The truth: It would put a big dent in the profits of the people writing his paycheck -- auto parts manufacturers.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    9. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by ravenshrike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      OTOH, the ONLY movie theater within 20 miles witrh a ban on guns that had the force of law behind it in Colorado was the exact movie theater that the Aurora shooter chose. It was not the biggest, closest, or most popular. Instead it was the only one that banned guns.

    10. Re:Liberty is the only thing in danger here. by wHartHog(69) · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Many assumptions in those questions:

      1) He has to justify his carry. He does not.
      2) He feels he needs to. He did not say that, he said he was carrying. One does not "need" in order to excercise a right
      3) He fears for his safety. I see no indication of fear. I suspect, rather, that he does NOT fear for his safety. Once again, fear of safety is not a requirement to excercise a right.
      4) He lives somewhere where it is necessary to keep a firearm and ammo while working in an office environment. See above, a firearm being "necessary" is not a requirement for carry if you live in an area that is open carry, '"must issue", or no permit required.

      I do however sense you projecting your own fears into the questions. I may be wrong, but if not it's ok. Make you a deal -- I have found that most folks who are "afraid" of guns & people who carry are those that have the least exposure. Actually, this is common in almost all fears. If you are near, I'll take you out, show you some basics, let you fire a few rounds from a variety of rifles, pistols, and shotguns. I'm not saying I can or will change your feelings, but at least I'll know that you are basing those on education, exposure, and experience rather than what you've heard or seen. Message me if you want to take me up on that.

  2. Futility of certain laws by john.l.christopher · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I understand the apprehension caused by firearms that can't currently be detected, but I don't quite understand what he's trying to accomplish in enacting a law that can't be enforced

    1. Re:Futility of certain laws by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mean, as soon as the gun is detected, it no longer falls under the "undetectable gun" rule? That is indeed a conundrum.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    2. Re:Futility of certain laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The bullet can be detected. Politicians lying as always.

    3. Re:Futility of certain laws by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      +1 - wtf is the point?

      Anybody that really wants to can already manufacturer their own weapons in the airport: Terminal Cornucopia.

      No need. C4 fits in rectums, along with detonators, etc.

      --
      No sig today...
    4. Re:Futility of certain laws by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We've had the shoebomber and the pantsbomber, so it's only a matter of time before there's a buttbomber.

      There's already been one. He tried to assassinate (heh heh heh) a Saudi royal IIRC. Trouble is he kept it up his ass and almost all of the energy went in to blowing him apart. It made a godawful mess, but failed to do much physical damage beyond a rather large cleaning bill.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Futility of certain laws by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Making a bullet is relatively simple. If the control fell mostly on bullets "cheap" home made bullets would be soon sold.

      Making gunpowder, as most of what could be made in the 9th century, isn't very hard. If the control fell mostly on gunpowder we'd be able to buy in online "cheap".

      Anyway, it's moot. You can't stop people from making medium range weapons with laws.

    6. Re:Futility of certain laws by larry+bagina · · Score: 4, Informative

      When the TSA is rooting through your panties looking for cash and drugs to steal, maybe they'll find it. Blind pig, acorn and all.

      Number of terrorists caught by TSA: 0

      Number of TSA screeners arrested for rape: > 0

      Number of TSA screeners arrested for drug smuggling: > 0

      Number of TSA screeners arrested for child porn: > 0

      Number of TSA screeners arrested for stealing: > 0

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    7. Re:Futility of certain laws by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I was a boss at Al-Qaeda I'd be getting people to stuff things up their ass and sending them to airports all day long. The chaos that follows when sheeple figure out that the TSA cannot protect them would be priceless. Chaos would ensue, the economy would tank overnight. That's real terrorism, I'd sleep soundly afterwards knowing I was doing my job.

      The fact that they aren't doing this is just more proof that there's no real organized terrorists out there, just occasional lunatics (Boston).

      All the security, all the gropings and inconvenience is just theater for the masses.

      (And a way for a few people to get richer - the head of the TSA owns shares in the company that make the scanners ... surprise!)

      --
      No sig today...
    8. Re:Futility of certain laws by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The primers used in modern ammunition. They are even harder to manufacture than good, clean gunpowder.

      Certainly not much harder than methamphetamine, which the black market has little problem supplying.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Futility of certain laws by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd take my chances with the bullet.

      80% of people shot with handguns survive. True statistic, learned it in a ballistics wounding seminar from a cardio-thoracic surgeon. I'd much rather face a handgun than a knife.

      Layman just don't appreciate the energy differences between pistols and rifles. Pistols don't operate at the energy levels necessary for remote wounding effects, so they can only kill through two effects: Blood loss and the destruction/disablement of the central nervous system. The former takes time, sometimes a lot of it (stories abound of people surviving gun shot wounds for hours before finally receiving medical attention), whereas the latter is a comparatively small target that's only occasionally hit in a gunfight.

      Rifles are a different animal entirely of course, but they're rarely used in crime and not something that those outside of the military generally need to concern themselves with.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    10. Re:Futility of certain laws by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Making a gun is relatively easy compared to making your own gunpowder

      Says someone who has never made either.

      Making either gunpowder or smokeless powder is dangerous. You could easily kill yourself being careless while doing so.

      That said, it's not really all that hard - don't make a spark and/or use the usual handling precautions for nitric and sulfuric acid, and you're golden.

      As to primers, it should be noted that they were mass-produced with 1850's technology - it's just not that difficult, if you know how.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  3. Some sort of gun-revealing device by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Funny

    If only there was some way to ensure that the guns contained a large, metal object that would show up on an x-ray. You could make such an object out of a dense metal like lead to ensure that it showed up.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  4. Re:Remind me why this is needed? by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    Because of course it's been scientifically proven that having 0.25000000 times the current number of laws is the optimum.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  5. Re:Remind me why this is needed? by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Informative

    Allow me to rephrase that for you:

    1 - I don't understand law

    2 - We shouldn't make stuff I don't understand

    3 - Let's just get rid of stuff I don't understand

    The majority of every long legal text is there to be explicitly precise about every detail of how it's supposed to work. As new loopholes are found in existing terms, new language is used in future texts to avoid them.

    For example, a hundred years ago, it might have been fine to say "buy" in a contract to refer to someone getting something, but thanks to the last hundred years of legal cases, there are many ways to avoid that particular term. You could trade for goods other than money. You could arrange a sequence of gifts. The exchange could be interrupted by a sudden death. Part of the exchange could be specified in a will. Once the trade is made, the items bought could come with attached expectations or conditions, or it could be part of a package deal.

    Consider law as a program for illogical machines. Just as any other programming language requires verbosity (or a significant amount of definitions) to achieve precision, so must law. Humans are just particularly good at exploiting bugs.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  6. Re:Remind me why this is needed? by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the problem is that once someone is shot it is already too late. By making it illegal to aim a gun at someone or to carry a (loaded) gun in populated areas it is possible to stop someone before the actual shooting has taken place.

    Funny, I can't think of a single time where someone pulled a gun on someone else, was stopped before shooting them, and then was let free because they broke no laws. I can't even think of a single time I heard a cop say "we wanted to take him down before he shot someone, but damn if he hadn't broken a law yet". Not even once.

    Frankly I think the problem is people lack any interest in really understanding the causes of violence and instead just pick their favorite scapegoat out of paranoia and overactive imaginations.

    Never mind that the only people who could be said to really be shooting at eachother with any regularity in the entire US are gang members, and occasionally, the police (or police and people's dogs maybe, but that conflict is kind of one sided).

    But no clearly, guns are the problem and not the bad drug policy that funds the gangs, and had lead to the systematic disenfranchisement of entire swaths of communities. No lets focus on the symptom some more, guns are much easier to solve....in our imaginations.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  7. Re:Remind me why this is needed? by Voyager529 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The majority of every long legal text is there to be explicitly precise about every detail of how it's supposed to work. As new loopholes are found in existing terms, new language is used in future texts to avoid them.

    See, that's why I figure that the best way to address the situation is to divide up a bill like this:

    Paragraph 1: The mission statement. What is the essence of the bill, and what is it ultimately trying to accomplish in broadest terms?
    Paragraph 2: The general rules. State what the bill says is or is not acceptable, as it would apply to the overwhelming majority of cases. Rules that do not directly reflect the mission statement are dismissed from the bill (no more riders or earmarks).
    Paragraph 3: Funding and enforcement. Who is paying for it, and who is ensuring that the rule is enforced?
    Paragraph 4: Duration. How long will this bill last before it needs to be renewed? 15 years, tops.
    Pages 2-10: Exceptions and legal speak. These are the pages intended to close loopholes, answer for as many exotic cases as possible, and be the part that is referenced if a court case needs examining. All statements made here must explicitly clarify and apply to Paragraph 2, and are subject to Paragraphs 3 and 4.

    This way, the bill is divided up into the parts that are legible by any reasonable person, and the parts that ensure that define the rules of the court cases involving more unique situations.

  8. Re:And note it is the Democrats threatening it by microbox · · Score: 4, Informative

    As we have seen through history the only real fascists have always been liberal

    This is just partisan nonsense. If you actually, you know, read about fascism, you'll learn that it doesn't fit into the current left/right political divide.

    People generally think of fascism as far-right because:

    These are all defining qualities of facism that you see on the political right *today*

    But facism is also leftist in that:

    • It broadens the mandate for government intervention in the economy
    • It is anti-materialist. (I suppose people in facists states seek spiritual sustenance.)

    Furthermore, both the Dems and the GOP (in practice) have an overlapping facist trait: the belief in the states role in monitoring its citizens. This is a true 3rd rail in US politics, since as many Rs/Ds are for it as against it.

    Fascism has traits not seen in either the Dems or the GOP, such as endorsing terror to gain political power, and the notion that the entire population should be permanently and emotionally engaged in the political process.

    Stop reading just right-wing books, and broaden your horizon a little. Just because you read it doesnt mean you have to believe it. And just because something is written down doesn't make it true. Real scholarship starts when you seek out differing views, and try to understand them.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right