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Ask Slashdot: Are We Older Experts Being Retired Too Early?

Posted by Soulskill on from the get-off-my-lawn dept.

caferace writes "I've been around the block. I'm a long-time worker in the tech industry (nearly 30 years), absolutely kickass SQA and Hardware person, networking, you name it. But I'm 50+ now, and finding new regular or contract work is a pain. And it shouldn't be. I have the skills and the aptitude to absorb and adapt to any new situations and languages way beyond what any of my college age brethren might have. But when I send out a perfectly good resume and use the more obvious resources there are still precious few bites for someone requiring to work remotely. Am I just whining, or is this common? Are we being put out to pasture far too early?"

21 of 629 comments (clear)

  1. Lie a little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Don't put your age on the CV and knock off the first 10 years of experience. My father worked IT contract work till he retired at 64 by doing this.

    1. Re:Lie a little by SumDog · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Age on a C.V?! Who does that. No one.. (and you shouldn't. Employers can't ask if you are married or your number of kids either. That can get you sued in many places).

      We have a lot of older people where I work, some hired in. The trouble is we also get a lot of people who come through who've been in the same shop for 20 years and they think they know what they're doing, but when you ask them an SQL question they use a sequence of nested queries without any join statements. We get sysadmin who don't know how to map a network drive on the command line. We get people who want security jobs who can't answer, "What's the difference between a GET and a POST request?"

      Another issue is that maybe shops are only looking to employ 40+ people in management positions, being team leads and architects. Maybe you hate that stuff and are looking for dev jobs and people are reluctant to hire you for that. The problem here lies in that most IT departments only have a pathway up the chain via management. For a lot of devs and admins, this isn't too bad and they can manage people fine. But there are those that really don't want to manage people, who hate it and there isn't really a pathway for people who just want to stay coding.

      Finally, it could be that you're applying to all the wrong places where people do look down upon your for your age. They are probably shitty shops you didn't want to work for anyway. Are you willing to move? If not, you could also try short term contracts (3 ~ 8 months). There are a tons of those if you're willing to be away for a couple of months each year. You can also build up remote contracting opportunities this way too.

      So to recap, you might be stuck in a city of discriminatory employers and it's not you, or you're looking for dev positions because that's what you love but people want your age group for management or ... you're not as good as you think you are and are bombing interviews.

    2. Re:Lie a little by somersault · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But when I send out a perfectly good resume and use the more obvious resources there are still precious few bites for someone requiring to work remotely

      How come nobody has commented on this part? No matter what age you are, requiring that you work remotely is going to make things difficult, no matter your age.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:Lie a little by ray-auch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How come nobody has commented on this part? No matter what age you are, requiring that you work remotely is going to make things difficult, no matter your age.

      Seconded. Not just "would like to work from home" but "requiring" - from the outset. I scanned the question in less time than scanning a CV and those words ("requiring to work remotely") jumped out - CV in the round filing thing in based on that alone, didn't even register the age range being complained about.

      I've worked remotely in several jobs and contracts, but only after being on-site first and proving myself and establishing with the client / employer which parts of the work can be done remotely - and always being prepared to be on site when required. I am not even sure how you could work remotely doing hardware and networks - but certainly not going to find out by trialing someone who is not prepared to be on site.

      At the end of the day, you are selling yourself with your CV and if no one is buying then you are selling the wrong thing or at the wrong price - and IMO "remote working only" is the wrong thing (unless you are an awful lot cheaper - i.e. India rates - and then it's usually the wrong thing but some people do buy...)

    4. Re:Lie a little by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they think they know what they're doing, but when you ask them an SQL question they use a sequence of nested queries without any join statements.

      And what exactly is wrong with that?

      Query optimizer will generally convert a nested query into a join when necessary. And for a non-correlated nested query (and possibly some particularly shaped indexes) nesting is probably a better answer to begin with.

    5. Re:Lie a little by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. He isn't being passed over for younger engineers. He is being passed over for Indian engineers. If the employer wants a remote worker, then it doesn't matter much if the worker is the next town over or the other side of the world.

    6. Re:Lie a little by dreamchaser · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Just because two notable names have made a big deal about it doesn't mean there aren't still plenty of such positions. Asking someone to uproot their entire lives and move across the country to benefit you with their extensive knowledge and experience for work that absolutely does not require your on-site and on-hands presence far exceeds "flexibility".

      Sorry, no it doesn't exceed 'flexibility'. Sometimes one just has to go where the work is. Despite your assertion the trend is and has been for some time moving away from telecommuting. It's not just 'two notable names' say so. It's a real trend in many industries. Requiring to work remotely will seriously curtail the number of opportunities a job seeker can find.

    7. Re:Lie a little by jafiwam · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't overlook the fact that "30 years of experience" is partly valuable on what they can teach the other staff members.

      Working remotely is going to have less of an impact on what the other workers know. (If any at all.)

      Why pay for "30 years", when "5 years and can share some of that with others" will do the job?

    8. Re:Lie a little by blue+trane · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This thread exemplifies what's wrong with the workplace: one poster advises people to lie to get a job, another asserts that groupthink trumps the advantages of telecommuting.

      It seems that most workplaces are toxic environments, rife with moral hazards and perverse incentives. The goal is not to innovate, but to fit in, and please a greedy little Napoleon boss.

      The best solution is to create a Basic Income guarantee. Then people can choose to innovate on their own on what they really want to be working on, instead of letting some rich guy order them around.

    9. Re:Lie a little by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they think they know what they're doing, but when you ask them an SQL question they use a sequence of nested queries without any join statements.

      And what exactly is wrong with that?

      Query optimizer will generally convert a nested query into a join when necessary. And for a non-correlated nested query (and possibly some particularly shaped indexes) nesting is probably a better answer to begin with.

      You speak the truth. Look at it this way:

      select something from table1 where id in (select table1_id from table2 where name ilike '%smith%');

      or

      select table1.something from table1 inner join table2 using table1.id=table2.table1_id where table2.name ilike '%smith%';

      They're equivalent, and if you're using a reasonable rdbms (I use PostgreSQL) they end up being optimized identically. IMHO, the first one is far easier to read and understand, particularly if you start adding even more and more tables and restrictions. Something I've picked up over the last 25 years of paid IT work is that maintainability trumps nearly everything else given the price disparity between hardware and human time. (obviously there are limits to that)

      In my company I maintain tons of code that I've written over the last 15 years. People call me up and expect for me to be able to look at code that I wrote 10 years ago and make changes. How about places where there's actual staff turnover? Writing readable and maintainable code is just better.

      --
      Do you have ESP?
  2. Re:They can get someone younger for much less pay. by myowntrueself · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They can get someone younger for much less pay.... and that's basically, it.

    You pay for experience, and employers don't want to pay for yours.

    Exactly. Hire someone half your age, pay them half as much, make them work twice as hard until they are an age and have enough experience where they start expecting pay rises then fire them and hire youngsters again. Its almost a fiduciary responsibility.

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  3. Re:FTFY by scsirob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They *THINK* they can get someone younger for much less pay.
    And they *THINK* they will get all the experience from that younger person too.

    What sets us "old farts" apart from the younger folks is that when we started, computers, software and infrastructure weren't half as complex as they are today. And we have seen it all grow. With that, we still know what happens under the hood. We still recognize a failing harddisk, a bad memory problem, a network routing issue etc, when the young guys just see their mouse, tablet or app not doing what they expect. The young folks know where to look when things work. We know where to look when things fail. Employers do not recognize that until they are hit by disaster.

    --
    To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
  4. It's a sad truth... by ImOuttaHere · · Score: 5, Interesting

    After 30 years working in software engineering and program management, I was turfed. The company I worked for had been acquired by a huge rollup company. We all knew what we coming, and come it did.

    I survived eight layoffs and got caught in the ninth, four years after the takeover. This, even though I helped bring the kinds of technologies and software engineering talent that helped generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year in bottom line revenue.

    In my case, the company had decided to ship manufacturing (a common "given") and engineering (something that surprised many of us) to China. The only thing the new company was interested in was increasing the value of the "leadership's" stock options. They didn't care what they acquired, just so long as they could strip assets and downsize and ship jobs offshore to fatten the bottom line. They honestly believed that what few jobs that were left in the US could be picked up by young engineers coming out of college. Cheap labor, right? Wrong. Particularly when they don't yet know enough and have no experience in highly specialized electronics and software solutions.

    I wish I could find it, but I remember reading a German study that showed us old folks are more productive in a 24 hour work week than new or middle-aged workers working 35.5+hours a week. I know we older folks can really crank out the work, manage and maintain revenue generating business relationships, and can help the rich bastards make even more money than they already are if they'd keep us around, but...

    Trans-national corporations, banks, and businesses really don't care how they generate their money and no one, not one single organization is upholding labor law that might, just might, hold these rogues accountable.

    I've been looking for a job for over two years now. I can't believe the US job market is as tough as it has turned out to be. We hate to suffer like this, but I feel too old, that I know too much, and I'm too damned expensive for korporate Amerika. Too bad labor isn't organized and won't stand up for each other. It's every person for themselves, or so it seems to me.

    1. Re:It's a sad truth... by ndykman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Citation needed. This current economic situation seems directly tied to out of control market speculation, heavy accumulation of wealth at the top (now surpassing the levels seen right before the Great Depression) and a fragmented work force that is unable to organize in many areas thanks to focused efforts to weaken labor laws.

      Also, given that tech people are so enamored of disruptive technologies, why do they think that couldn't organize in a effective way that avoids the worst problems but maintains the benefits? Create a disruptive union model that changes the game on both sides, perhaps?

  5. Re:Aging workforce by antifoidulus · · Score: 5, Funny

    As a I-O psychologist and researcher

    I am just imagining you sitting on a couch, talking to a hard disk:

    You: Well Mr. Hard Disk, how are you feeling?
    Hard disk:Doc, I tell you my head feels like its constantly spinning in circles, and I am afraid something might come unhinged and I'll crash!

    --
    Monstar L
  6. Re:Your not alone by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't understand how this happens. Are these people not social? Are they not assertive? Do they not push back? I'm a few years away from 40, so I don't think I qualify for that range just yet, but the people I work with who are a good deal older than me are aggressive in voicing their disagreements, pointing out where things are fucked, not accepting shitty practices, and pushing for things to be corrected. They don't sit quietly by while products, processes, or themselves are screwed. Where the younger guys may be timid, the more seasoned among them will firmly tell you your shit is fucked and encourage you (and help, if needed) to unfuck it.

  7. It may be common but it still sounds like whining by slim-t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anytime you describe yourself as "kickass," you come off as a jerk. Then you demand to work remotely. Surely there are people out there with adequate skills, who aren't jerks and will show up at the office once in a while.

  8. Opinion by DaMattster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a small business owner in IT managed services, age absolutely does NOT matter to me. I'm more interested in a person's willingness to continue to learn and not stay stagnant. If you are in your 80s and have continued to learn on your own and want to stay engaged, I can do the heavy lifting ... that's no problem, welcome aboard. Attitude, experience, and wisdom trump youth every time. My marketing director is 25 years older than I am and I can constantly learn from him because he stays on the cutting edge and subscribes to lifelong learning. My brother has a mechanical engineer on his payroll that is 92 years old and is an extremely talented and creative guy. He can design something on paper in a mere fraction of the time it would take a lesser experienced engineer to do. Don't ever make the mistake of judging someone on age - judge on attitudes.

  9. Re:FTFY by Cwix · · Score: 5, Informative

    What a load of BS.

    As a 30 year old admin I can tell you right now that I can easily diag failing hard drives, memory sticks and yes even network issues..

    If you think that you need many many years of experience to do this you are not nearly as talented as you seem to want to make yourself out to be. Go look in the mirror, if your crowning achievement is being able to diag simple hardware problems, then maybe the issue with you getting hired has more to do with your inexperience and not your age.

    --
    You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
  10. Re:Aging workforce by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the US, I should mention that there's another key dimension in play: Older workers bring with them more expensive health insurance costs. I just watched a major corporation end the career of a 25-year veteran of the company primarily because of that (it was a "layoff" that just happened to get rid of 22 workers who just happened to be the oldest workers who weren't chums with an executive).

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  11. You're not trying hard enough by caogdin3419 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I love watching youthful ./ folk give advice on topics for which they have no credible experience.

    I'm 72 now, and still gainfully employed...just not by 35-year-old "managers" (or worse, "executives") who haven't got any substantive experience to evaluate competence. After a career consulting to IBM, Intel, HP, Amoco, DuPont (and lots more) at the CxO level on IT strategy, I semi-retired in 2001, to a small mountain town nestled in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Up here, the body of "technical talent" is composed of self-taught "experts" who wouldn't know how to make changes to a registry, or whip up a quick script to solve a user's persistent problem.

    So, I reached out to local businesses with computers who experienced lots of "crashes" and "fatal errors" and had gaming computers when they needed a laptop ('cause that's what the local store wanted to sell). I have several clients who keep me busy, and who have learned to accept my counsel as focused on THEIR business needs, not what's convenient for me.

    The trick, for me, was to figure out what services to offer (hint: what they want, not what I want to do), and how to price my services; small businesses HATE to pay by the hour, because they understand that provides incentives to waste time in getting to the solution. I changed the model to a fixed monthly fee for most services, and a price schedule for extraordinary things (like properly configuring a new computer to add to the network). I make a comfortable living that supplements other family income, and keep my skills sharp.

    Find your own path and make it yours. Don't try to get hired by people who can't appreciate your value. That way lies madness. --cao