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Ask Slashdot: Are We Older Experts Being Retired Too Early?
caferace writes "I've been around the block. I'm a long-time worker in the tech industry (nearly 30 years), absolutely kickass SQA and Hardware person, networking, you name it. But I'm 50+ now, and finding new regular or contract work is a pain. And it shouldn't be. I have the skills and the aptitude to absorb and adapt to any new situations and languages way beyond what any of my college age brethren might have. But when I send out a perfectly good resume and use the more obvious resources there are still precious few bites for someone requiring to work remotely. Am I just whining, or is this common? Are we being put out to pasture far too early?"
Don't put your age on the CV and knock off the first 10 years of experience. My father worked IT contract work till he retired at 64 by doing this.
Myself and my wife are in the same boat, and I know at least 2 others who are.
I've also found those I know who HAVE been successful in securing a position, generally get the raw end of the stick, they get pushed into corners and treat like robots that are there just to do the stuff no one else wants, so even when they do get in their skill set is largely ignored.
You've been in the biz thirty years and you're not retired retired? C'mon. I've been at it for one year, at two-thirds the average starting pay, and I'm looking at becoming an artist/gardener/eccentric recluse in three or four years. (Granted, I live in a $34,000 home in one of the lowest cost-of-living cities in the US... but that's all part of the plan.)
But so are most industries. Few people want to work with someone much more experienced than them, unless they lack the competitive streak - no more so than IT, an industry full of insecure autodidacts who are often more mouth than trousers.
Sadly your experience is common. The older you get, the harder it is to find work.
So in your last decade or so, instead of saving for your retirement, you end up chewing through what little savings you have,
It's called the "American Dream".
They can get someone younger for much less pay.... and that's basically, it.
You pay for experience, and employers don't want to pay for yours.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
As a I-O psychologist and researcher, this is fairly common. A lot of stereotypes are misattributed to the "older worker" and it happens a lot. In this world, organisations almost exclusively focus on attracting "young talent". Yet they fail to understand that older workers are far more experienced. Amongst misunderstandings is the notion that older workers would be (a) untrainable (b) too expensive (c) not creative, and (d) not flexible enough to adapt. This is all ruled out by research, but you know how it works with research. That's just "theory" and management wants "practice". So in short, you are not alone. As a matter of fact, there is a whole psychological discipline devoted towards this, called the "aging workforce".
Wanting to work remotely is probably putting potential employers off too... A lot of people can't understand how someone can work remotely, and just assume they're sitting around playing games all day. They would rather see you sitting at a desk so they think you're working, even if you might be sitting there using slashdot all day.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
They can get someone younger for much less pay.... and that's basically, it.
You pay for experience, and employers don't want to pay for yours.
Exactly. Hire someone half your age, pay them half as much, make them work twice as hard until they are an age and have enough experience where they start expecting pay rises then fire them and hire youngsters again. Its almost a fiduciary responsibility.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
You require to work remotely? Most managers cannot stand that - if you aren't there in the office so they can see that you are working, you must be goofing off, you cannot possibly be working. Judge you by your results? They wouldn't know how to do that, and they are far too harrassed/unimaginative/untrained to work out a method of doing it.
I've been in IT for more than 40 years, a contractor for the last twenty. In all that time, I have once had one contract that allowed me to work from home, and then it was just one day a week - and even then, in the middle of the contract, they tried to change it to all five days a week.
"Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders
New trend.
Junior and medium IT positions are being replaced by students doing internships or minimum wage apprenticeship.
I noticed that working for US and UK companies.
Suddenly everybody wants to hire people fresh out of college or even before graduation.
Older workers are too expensive. It doesn't matter if this cause some hiccups for company, balance sheet is more important.
As an older engineer, I've found that helping out the youngsters with their freeware and bringing lesons learned decades ago is rewarding, and professionally helpful. I can name at least 3 freeware or open source projects that I've been involved with for more than 10 years that get me recruiting calls from other countries. Very very few people have that much experience with it, my name has been in the developer mailing lists for that long, and I've done it as a matter of technical interest. Put those on your CV.
Also, companies that are migrating from older to newer platforms may welcome people who've worked extensively with both. As I've become older I've become the "local reference" for the older technologies. Simply having a hint of what the differences might be can same hundreds of man-hours of labor porting software or keeping the old system alive during the migration.
They *THINK* they can get someone younger for much less pay.
And they *THINK* they will get all the experience from that younger person too.
What sets us "old farts" apart from the younger folks is that when we started, computers, software and infrastructure weren't half as complex as they are today. And we have seen it all grow. With that, we still know what happens under the hood. We still recognize a failing harddisk, a bad memory problem, a network routing issue etc, when the young guys just see their mouse, tablet or app not doing what they expect. The young folks know where to look when things work. We know where to look when things fail. Employers do not recognize that until they are hit by disaster.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
They *THINK* they can get someone younger for much less pay. And they *THINK* they will get all the experience from that younger person too.
What sets us "old farts" apart from the younger folks is that when we started, computers, software and infrastructure weren't half as complex as they are today. And we have seen it all grow. With that, we still know what happens under the hood. We still recognize a failing harddisk, a bad memory problem, a network routing issue etc, when the young guys just see their mouse, tablet or app not doing what they expect. The young folks know where to look when things work. We know where to look when things fail. Employers do not recognize that until they are hit by disaster.
Interestingly we have a number of young-ish programmers who do get that ... and all of them come from Poland. They put it down to having to cobble together systems from whatever was available during their education!
After 30 years working in software engineering and program management, I was turfed. The company I worked for had been acquired by a huge rollup company. We all knew what we coming, and come it did.
I survived eight layoffs and got caught in the ninth, four years after the takeover. This, even though I helped bring the kinds of technologies and software engineering talent that helped generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year in bottom line revenue.
In my case, the company had decided to ship manufacturing (a common "given") and engineering (something that surprised many of us) to China. The only thing the new company was interested in was increasing the value of the "leadership's" stock options. They didn't care what they acquired, just so long as they could strip assets and downsize and ship jobs offshore to fatten the bottom line. They honestly believed that what few jobs that were left in the US could be picked up by young engineers coming out of college. Cheap labor, right? Wrong. Particularly when they don't yet know enough and have no experience in highly specialized electronics and software solutions.
I wish I could find it, but I remember reading a German study that showed us old folks are more productive in a 24 hour work week than new or middle-aged workers working 35.5+hours a week. I know we older folks can really crank out the work, manage and maintain revenue generating business relationships, and can help the rich bastards make even more money than they already are if they'd keep us around, but...
Trans-national corporations, banks, and businesses really don't care how they generate their money and no one, not one single organization is upholding labor law that might, just might, hold these rogues accountable.
I've been looking for a job for over two years now. I can't believe the US job market is as tough as it has turned out to be. We hate to suffer like this, but I feel too old, that I know too much, and I'm too damned expensive for korporate Amerika. Too bad labor isn't organized and won't stand up for each other. It's every person for themselves, or so it seems to me.
Half? Not even close. We are currently hiring, we prefer local work force, someone who shows up each day, someone we can talk to. Local salary is in the $80.000 range. However, if we are looking for someone working remotely, they are up against quite qualified eastern block workers, whom clock in at $12.000-15.000.
If I have to deal with remote workers, I'd go for the cheaper option.
With your level of expertise and experience, you should consider starting your own business. I realize it's not that simple: you have to have an idea for a business before you can start one, and that's difficult. I suggest regular brain storming sessions involving a notebook and a pin. You are at a point in your life where you may as well completely re-invent yourself.
More to the point of your question: If you are leading off with telecommuting as a requirement, that's going to get your resume tossed more frequently than not. If you are not applying for a job that explicitly states telecommuting as a requirement, leave it off of your resume - you need to start getting your foot in through some doors - start getting interviews and ask about telecommuting then. Just as a tip, I suggest re-writing your entire resume in a fashion tailored to each individual position and company - just don't get them mixed up.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
"George Carlin famously wrote the joke "it's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it".
Carlin pointed to "the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions" as having a greater influence than an individual's choice."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream
Exactly. Hire someone half your age, pay them half as much, make them work twice as hard until they are an age and have enough experience where they start expecting pay rises then fire them and hire youngsters again. Its almost a fiduciary responsibility.
And it's usually stupid ... when coders have no business knowledge, it takes at least twice as long in the end to get them to code the right stuff. So you don't save anything.
The problem with Polish workforce is they are getting expensive, the new kids on the block are Romanian, Macedonian, Ukrainian. Although same applies - and on top of them being down right brilliant, they have a work mentality that trumps most westerners.
They *THINK* they can get someone younger for much less pay.
And they *THINK* they will get all the experience from that younger person too.
That *IS* the problem, yes.
No sig today...
I guess your problem is not your age but the fact that you want to work remotely only (if I understood you correctly).
If it is indeed age, come to europe, especially germany. Good software engineers are seeked desperately.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Anytime you describe yourself as "kickass," you come off as a jerk. Then you demand to work remotely. Surely there are people out there with adequate skills, who aren't jerks and will show up at the office once in a while.
That is a tough one both for 20-ers and 50-ers or 60-ers. For the rest of TFA, you have a point. At some point in my career ( recently ), I simply decided to never retire. As a software engineer, I had the best idea of my career only last summer, and I am 46. Plenty of potential ahead.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
I think you are wrong.
Yes, there are a few Habibs in India that charge more than I do, and are worth it. They have advanced degrees in mathematics and are actually capable of doing work over my head.
The ones that are competing for my job? I could trounce 99/100 of them in less than 5 minutes on any subject. They get work because it is cheaper to let them work on the job for an hour and THEN escalate to me when they still cant figure it out. And expect me to clean up not only the original problem but all the damage the overseas tech did as well, in less than 20 minutes.
Since I can do that and they cannot, my job remains relatively secure.
That said, obviously requiring remote work limits the options quite a bit. I know I could easily make 3x my current salary if I would move to some urban hellhole, but most of the raise would go to higher cost of living, and quality would go down, so why would I be tempted?
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
There's only so much reasonable adaptation to be done. Nobody with a full time job can "keep up" with the technology that someone whose most recent full time job was four years of keeping up on latest buzzword technology. There's annually a fresh batch of people that just spent four years doing that. However, I don't see how hard it can be for people to stay abreast of things within their own field. For the majority of us, shit isn't changing *that* damn fast. I mean, unless you're in the "buzzword, venture capital, ycombinator" business, I guess.
As a small business owner in IT managed services, age absolutely does NOT matter to me. I'm more interested in a person's willingness to continue to learn and not stay stagnant. If you are in your 80s and have continued to learn on your own and want to stay engaged, I can do the heavy lifting ... that's no problem, welcome aboard. Attitude, experience, and wisdom trump youth every time. My marketing director is 25 years older than I am and I can constantly learn from him because he stays on the cutting edge and subscribes to lifelong learning. My brother has a mechanical engineer on his payroll that is 92 years old and is an extremely talented and creative guy. He can design something on paper in a mere fraction of the time it would take a lesser experienced engineer to do. Don't ever make the mistake of judging someone on age - judge on attitudes.
Why wouldn't I hire you?
"absolutely kickass SQA and Hardware person, networking, you name it"
"I have the skills and the aptitude to absorb and adapt to any new situations and languages way beyond what any of my college age brethren might have."
"a perfectly good resume" (just sounds so snarky)
and critically: "someone requiring to work remotely"
Get off your high horse, write a plain CV/resume (omit your age if you really feel you need to) and apply for "normal" jobs, not telecommuting jobs.
Who wants to hire a blow-his-own-trumpet, big-head, nearly-retired, remote worker? Nobody.
That said, as you get older your skills mean less. If you have 20 years or 30 years experience, which is "better"? There's not much to choose between them. If you had nothing versus even 1 year's experience it makes a big difference. Hence as you age, your experience means less. It's almost a bell curve, in fact. After a while you "know" so much that you have to be retrained to do things "our" way.
And the job market is tough no matter what your age or experience. Many places can't afford people at all, let alone top-end salary highly-experienced people. That said, I've never paid attention to "the market" and always just applied for things I like and never had a problem finding work (in fact, the opposite... I'm currently holding off applying for permanent jobs, after resigning from my job of 5 years, in order to be ready for a good place that are determined to hire me and have offers coming in from all sorts of places).
Also, in my experience, if you're good the work finds you. I'm socially inept but this networking thing really gets you work like nothing else. I spent 10+ years just going from client to client based on word of mouth and NOTHING else. I'm not "the best", by far, but I'm good at what I do and learn quick on what I don't.
You're willing to adapt and learn, so do so. With the recruitment process as well as the types of jobs you go for. Apply for damn near anything in your area of expertise and stop being so picky about YOUR requirements. If you were so good, the jobs would be finding you, not the other way around.
Honestly, you're just like everyone else looking for work. You can either put in the graft and find the job you want by spending MONTHS looking for it, or you can drift from job to unemployment to job as and when something comes up that "suits" you.
Very true. But CEOs are the last people you should expect to realize this.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
What a load of BS.
As a 30 year old admin I can tell you right now that I can easily diag failing hard drives, memory sticks and yes even network issues..
If you think that you need many many years of experience to do this you are not nearly as talented as you seem to want to make yourself out to be. Go look in the mirror, if your crowning achievement is being able to diag simple hardware problems, then maybe the issue with you getting hired has more to do with your inexperience and not your age.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Pushing 50 is an adventure. Find an entirely new direction, start a new life chapter.
I am a 1970s-onward computer tech turned 1990s-onward BSD/Linux sysadmin who helped start a Freenet and two ISPs, the first back in the 'dark ages' before AOL got its first ip address. Then after a 8 year gap in my IT resume (I had rejoined a family business) I discovered not only do 40-somethings have difficulty competing for other new hires... in this brave new world you cannot even walk in and introduce yourself anymore, it's fill out this form on our website and we'll call you back.
No one ever called back, not even for a boring graveyard shift telecom job. I now work fixing water main breaks and jetting sewers and doing light construction, I'm in better physical shape than I was at 18. The best part of it is when you clean sewers you're not expected to take your work home with you.
The worst part is when your buddies bring you their old 512mb netbooks and ask you to load Windows 8 onto them. It hurts to say no and it's sometimes hard to explain why.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
No, you seem to have a problem with profanity in a public forum.
Please let's keep it clean here.
I see no convincing argument for this. Your prudishness is your issue, not Seumas's.
Thanks Mom, for helping to clean up the internet. Maybe you should mind your own fucking business and ignore objectionable things yourself, rather than project your ideals onto the rest of us. Asshole.
If his internet connection is via satellite in an area with possible snow storms, then it's an incredibly bad idea to employ him. If he's out in the middle of nowhere, it's by his own choice. If you want to work with very specific job requirements, chances are pretty good that you'll have to move to accommodate your job, rather than the other way around.
which is totally what she said
The more I think of it, the more I am convinced that if you could unite a good portion of good older engineers, you'd have a consulting/engineering/system integration company to rival the big players in the market. Usually when people join they stop at 50-100 employees however you need to get to a massive size to compete with the bigger system integrators.
I live in CH and getting a job is easily doable up to 55. Then it gets a harder but not impossible. Here in CH there's no real job protection and so you can get fired and hired more easily. The US should be even more radical. In countries where job protection is paramount, jobs clung on dearly and you're basically screwed once you hit 50.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
I do not list my age. I do list 30+ years of experience (actually closer to 45, but 30+ is not a lie)
My resume starts off with a list of "Selected Accomplishments" that condense what I have done by category and typically spans multiple employments.
This section can also be customized per job application.
You can list your whole job history, (let them do the math).
Potty mouth
That was very offensive of you. I command that you not say anything like that ever again, because I don't like it. Please let's keep it clean here.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Sorry, you are competing with a bunch of young guys who while not nearly as good, nor efficient, but will show up in the town and then the office and be there for the management to see. They can do this because they rent, don't have entrenched families, and aren't tied to where they are.. and probably got there a year or two ago anyway.
Management like to do stuff like walk around the building looking for who's there and who's not, and of who's there, who is working. Maybe not as enforcement, but as "gee I am a great manager look at all my guys working" type of thing.
Remote workers often disappear to other companies because this entrenched commitment is not present. Remotely working lets them jump ship for fewer reasons faster. (The company I work for has been burned by this repeatedly.)
Plus, getting someone involved in a complicated project remotely sucks ass, and is a drain on everybody else, having to produce a bunch more documentation that a conversation in a hallway could accomplish, remote desktop sharing sessions, etc. Sometimes I work on complicated stuff with others in my company, and it always sucks to have that one guy that can only see one computer screen and only hear what's going on. Unless it's pure program coding or graphics or something, they never pull their own weight.
Start looking hard for LOCAL jobs where you don't have to be "remote". Use your experience to branch out into new areas that widens your skill set to the point you can find a local job. Or, move to where the jobs are temporarily. Just don't say "I will only work for you remotely" because companies do deliberately pass that up because they've already had bad experiences with that.
One last point, the economy is still pretty bad. Nobody is getting a lot of jobs right now. The government is lying to you about it, or the job growth isn't in my state, NOBODY I know is doing "gosh I got this great new job" it's all "I haven't gotten a raise in 5 years and there are no worthwhile job prospects elsewhere". If there is a good economy, it's in China or something. You might consider lowering your expectations a bit. If you really want to work, you gotta compete with other guys that really need to work. From here, it sounds like you aren't on several levels.
Overly sensitive cunt.
Because they have no business knowledge either? ;-)
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Your inability to fly out to do the job is. What is holding you back is your "I can work remotely" That is not cutting it right now, change that to "I will fly out and work right there for you" and you will start getting bites.
The young guys are saying, "Yes I will drive across the country and live in my car for this job" that is what you need to do as well.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
JUST MAYBE BECAUSE THE fellow lives in the bush out in the Aleutian peninsula and generates his electricity burning whale oil? OR maybe his internet by satellite is not fast enough to respond to the job offers in time? Could be all sorts of legitimate reasons why insisting on working remotely is causing employers to overlook his job inquiries. How many times have you had the dream of turning into a hermit when working on a .NET project. OR moving to Alaska.
It doesn't matter why he wants to work remotely. He could be Skynet for all people care.
Remote workers are not as productive as "there" workers on a number of levels guaranteed, and also quite possibly on actual measurable work performance too.
This is all about the perception the company has of him, not the other way around. "But he has XYZ" is completely irrelevant.
You must be one of the "everybody gets a trophy" generation. "Give me something (because of self-inflicted hardship)!" "I am an XYZ type person, give me something because of it!" Meh. Nobody wants that type around when the company might fail if the project fails.
Hurts to say no? I find it gleefull to say no. Learn to embrace the joy of telling friends, "sorry I dont work for free". Now if a buddy wants to mow may lawn for 3 weeks for me in trade for dinking with his computer? sure. want me to wast 4 hours putting Windows 8 on something, you had better bring me a bottle of JW Blue when you ask.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
That''s what happens when finance people take over. They bought the company as a vehicle for getting bank loans.
1. Buy company.
2. Borrow money.
3. Pay oneself "fees" out of that money. (PROFIT!)
4. Company goes bust.
5. Find another company and GOTO #1.
...
That's how Mitt Romney got rich at Bain Capital.
That's a pretty negative view of young SAs, not borne out by my experience. Are you sure you're not discriminating against them?
Absolutely. I have an electronics degree, and I run into developers with CS degrees all the time who are not well read in software engineering. Asking someone what their influences are should probably be a standard interview question.
McManus: Give me the fucking keys, you fucking cocksucking motherfucker, aaarrrghh.
Time to offend someone
You're making the same mistake. Some young people know what they're doing.
Some old people don't know shit. They still use sccs and rcs, pre ansi c and perl to write software because they won't learn new stuff. They still use the same database from the 1980s because they won't learn a modern one. (yeah, i left that job... )
I'm in my 30s so I'm not in the young group or the old group yet and I see crap on both ends.
At any age, you can have talented people. Don't judge by age, only demonstrated skills.
MidnightBSD: The BSD for Everyone
As a middle aged IT person that's contractually in high demand with a large number of companies, I interact regularly with older IT personnel (my age or slightly older) and many companies that have turfed many of their IT staff in general.
... and quite frankly, there's far too many IT people in the industry that skirt by with limited ability because they're surrounded by other people with limited abilities, so when some new people come along that actually know a thing or two, they can bring to management's attention that their IT departments are lacking in skill.
With the former I often encounter a lack of knowledge on new topics, older people that have grown too comfortable with their idea of 'current' technology without expanding their knowledge while a young guy will come in and say, "oh you guys need this and this and this to solve this problem!" The young guy might be overzealous and his idea might crash and burn, yet he was willing to provide solutions where plenty of older IT people come off as either too unwilling to explore alternative solutions or simply lacking the knowledge to solve difficult problems.
It's also important to keep in mind that as many companies move their services "to the cloud", I've seen a decreased demand for local IT and as this happens I've seen plenty of IT people blame "executive bonuses" or "replaced with young people" when the truth of the matter is that there's less demand for their skillset.
I've never been turned down for a job after I've attended the itnerview. I'm better at interviewing than I am at my job. I've also participated in hiring people and been involved in interviewing them as well and I can tell you the mistakes I see in older people that causes them to fail the interview.
1. Lie. Your application to a company is like a TV infomercial. Don't say you know C# when you've never touched it. But if say they want experience in MYSQL and you're proficient in DB2 or whatever... just lie. The hiring manager doesn't know the difference and you'll be able to figure it out quickly enough as long as you have google access. You'll have to make a judgement call here but keep in mind the hiring manage usually has no idea what he/she wants, just wrote some crap down on the application and may not even remember that you said yes to that particular part. I for example am fluent in 2 different CRM architectures. So could I admin Salesforce or Microsoft Dynamics? Of course... but the hiring manager might not understand how easy the transition would be. So, I lie... I go download some demos and work in it over a weekend, then head into the interview proficient in both. The first week I can blaim my bumbling around on just getting used to things, but after 2 I should be good to go.
2. Have a FIRM handshake when you walk in the room. If you don't know how to do it, ask a Marine. I'm not kidding, there are dozens of studies that show the way you shake hands with someone will often doom the relationship before you even talk to them. Learn how to do it correctly.
3. Ware a suit. Always. Many if not most corporations these days have a form they fill out to hand into HR. Most of its very subjective, and the interviewer gets to enter what he wants. But if they have a question "Applicants appearance" and you're a man, a suit = 10 out of 10, and everything else is 10. It's just a fact. So ware a suit no matter what. Oh, and make sure it's not 20+ years old. You can pick up a new modern suit at JC Pennies for $100. Do it.
4. For the love of God don't talk about "The old days" or "Back when I worked for IBM" I know you're trying to brag... but what it says to the interviewer is "here's a guy with a lot of entrenched methods and skills that we don't need. We're going to have to retrain all of that out of him!" Don't do it.
Instead:
5. Talk about relevant, exciting new technologies. If they're looking for a people soft person, read up on it... learn what's new, what's happening to the company. Get excited about interesting new features. You want to mention at least 5 things about the software package that's new and exciting to the interviewer. That way they are thinking "Not even my best guy told me about that!" Again, I know it sounds silly but don't let pride keep you from getting paid.
6. Like someone else mentioned above, do not fill your resume with old, non-relevant things. If they need a C# dev and find out you worked as a DBA for 10 years... they then have to worry about you getting half way through a major project and then leave because you found a DBA job that pays more. If they're not looking for a DBA, don't mention that... or if they already know, play it down like that's not what you're interested in anymore. You really like coding and C#. etc...
I hope that helps.
Remote work is on the outer at the moment, even in companies that used to embrace it. In this economy you're going to actually have to show up to the office if you want work.
Really? Because I see a bunch of young-to-middle age guys throwing framework after framework at a problem hoping it will solve it, without ever taking a moment to actually understand the problem they're trying to solve. They end up with a unmaintainable, cumbersome slow mess that requires java VMs in the tens of gigabytes where a little custom code and optimized SQL would run orders of magnitude faster on much smaller hardware. The custom code also wouldn't require server restarts every couple of days due to memory leaks.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
My breadth of experience is similar, having started programming before i was 10 years old and writing databases in dBase 3 (Ashton Tate, anyone?) for commercial stock control systems before I hit my teens. Now that I am in my 40's, it means I have typically 8-10 years' extra experience than colleagues of the same age, and potential employers are surprised at how young I am when I arrive for an interview.
Admittedly, this is in Europe, but 5-6 years ago when working in the 'States, I got the same kind of feedback.
My feeling at the moment is that there is a lot of talent on the shelf at the moment and that companies are still a bit risk-averse when hiring, so those positions you are not getting are probably going to people who are either younger (in which case, drop your age from your CV), less expensive and maybe less capable (either wait for a job that values your skills as you do, or take a lower paid job, choice is yours), or more local to the employer (in which case, reconsider your "remote working only" stance). The only way to find out is to call and ask the recruiters. If the recruiters are internal to the organisation, good luck... I doubt you will get anything out of them as they try to avoid a discrimination lawsuit. But if the recruiters are an external company, you can probably get at least some ideas based on the people they put forward for interview and the ones the potential employer showed an interest in.
But as to the question "are you too old?", my answer is "no, because in my experience a lot of companies looking for quality rather than cheap, are seriously looking at older candidates favourably".
Of course they are. Been than way for the decades I've been involved. Companies are more up front about it now and it's barely against the law to fire people BECAUSE they're over 35 now. Companies, at least US ones want a workforce, such as it is, of people fresh out of school who stay for 3 years then bolt. And every year they want to pare even that population down by 5% or more so that between turnover and 'productivity' none of them will have a US based workforce at all soon.
Facts about productivity and remote workers dispute you" Your little story is no more valid than you claim his little story is until you provide those "facts" you claim exist.
If you're going to act snarky, don't be shallow simultaneously.
Absolutely. I have an electronics degree, and I run into developers with CS degrees all the time who are not well read in software engineering. Asking someone what their influences are should probably be a standard interview question.
Still, I'd like a programmer to know when a problem is NP hard.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
You're requiring to work remotely. That rules out at least 50% of potential employers and likely more than that. I'm not convinced ageism is the issue here, but, just in case it is, go ahead and make your resume age-less:
1. Don't give a date for when you received your degree(s),
2. Don't include a picture (including on LinkedIn) or choose one that was taken when you were younger, and
3. Only list your last ~10 years of work experience.
I've also had good luck using head hunters and/or getting hired by people I've worked for in the past who are now employed elsewhere. I'm a known quantity to them.
You might try looking for jobs here.
Well given that at some point we all decided that being a CEO was a skill set of some sort and that you could just go find a guy who had been a CEO of a car manufacturer and put them in charge of a dairy company. I'm not sure exactly how that makes any kind of sense, but those folks own most of the world's wealth so they must be getting something right.
They have business school knowledge (a very different thing from actual business knowledge) and great political skills. A touch of psychopathy doesn't hurt either. Who cares about actual business knowledge when you'll collect your absurd paychecks, bonuses and stock options before your shortsighted business practices really start screwing up the company.
...someone like you involved - but the problem is that your greatest value to me would likely be your actual presence at the company. The guy who stays calm in the face of adversity, who had seen it all, who would head off problematic decisions before they become canon, et cetera. All of that is awful hard to do when you're a remote worker.
My point is that your greatest asset IS your experience, and that's difficult to share remotely (unless you're an architect or someone who works a bit more in isolation.)
My $0.000002
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Sometimes it isn't ageism, but the fact you are not as good as the other candidates.
I work with some people who are much younger than I am and people who are much older too. And here is a bit of a secrete. Technical skills and experience is only small part of the equation.
First we have flexibility. I have seen some of the older workers who are close to retirement who are really good and can use their experience to jump onto doing new things like they have been doing it for years. Then you have a bunch of people who are stuck in their ways and will refuse to change, demanding formal training, and just being a roadblock to what needs to be done. So if your Resume has FORTRAN, COBOL, C. And even though you say I am ready to learn Java, they don't really take that into much account, other then allowing you to continue your interview. What works better if you have those older languages but you say I have been playing with Java (You can use other more modern stuff too) at home. It gives you far more credibility. It shows that you are actually actively willing to learn, not just saying so so you can get the job.
Next we have personality. You will need to fit the corporate culture. If you are wanting a job and you are the oldest person there, you will need to be sure that you have other attributes that will make sure you fit their culture. Able to appreciate young people music, up to date on what is currently hot and popular, and not trying to be their dad. Now you can use your age to your advantage as being the cool old guy.
We have work ethic. We got a lot of companies who have long hours... however there is a lot of goof off time, then you have companies that are hands to the keyboard. Often you get experienced you really don't want to be Long hours and hand to the keyboards. However your often make yourself seem like you are unwilling to go the extra mile.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
> The difference in security between GET and POST is about the same as level ground vs. a finger nail sized piece of tissue paper on that same level ground, since it would have only stopped someone so incompetent to not have been a threat anyway.
Query strings (GET) are visible to other sites as the referer, and end up in their logs, which may well end up on Google. So if you're okay with the information being displayed with someone does a search for your domain name, it's okay for it to be in the query string. GET is for GETting publicly available documents, and the query string can be used to identify the document. The query string is also visible to third-party JavaScript and .. well just about everybody. So it's in no way private. Additionally, note that any number of people can GET this post and read it and that causes no problems. It can be cached and people can get it without the server knowing and that's fine.
POST is used to take actions, such as POSTing a message on Slashdot, logging in, logging out, deleting something, etc. That data isn't visible to other sites you visit. It's not part of the REFERER, or document.location, etc. Assuming either SSL or no MITM by someone with access to your network, POST data is private. Additionally, POST explicitly means it has some effect, so it should not be repeated, cached, etc. If you confuse the two, doing something (such as creating a Slashdot post) based upon a GET request, you my well end up doing the action multiple times when it should have been done only once, or not doing it at all when it should have been, because the request was answered by a cache. It's not okay to add four hard drives to my shopping cart when I click "Add to cart" once, so not knowing and respecting the difference is a significant security issue.
Its not your age its the remote working thing.
I've been trying to find a remote working software developer job for a long time, and there simply aren't and haven't been any at all, unless you want to be paid peanuts and do web development.
Its that simple.
I'm thinking a programmer who doesn't know if-then-else may not be awesome.
Is width greater than? It was greater then.
Because they have no business knowledge either? ;-)
No. They have plenty of "business knowledge", but then I expect that you already know that. What they commonly lack, however, is an appreciation for how "all that computer stuff" works, including how much it costs to a proper job of: gathering requirements, design, infrastructure build out, coding, etc. If all you're looking at is the cost per head that can produce n lines per day, without any regard for the quality of that work, the youngsters look like a real bargain.
Chess grandmasters typically in their late teens when they achieve grandaster status, peak in their mid twenties, and retire before their 40th. Their job requires experience, but it is a kind of experience that they start accumulating in early childhood. An 18 year old grandmaster typically has over 10 years of experience. The returns on experience diminish very sharply.
Doctors typically keep improving with experience and peak much closer to the end of their career. You learn the tricks of the trade in college and by doing it at work. Doctors typically start gaining experience in their mid to late 20s. Though they do have to stay up to date with new developments, their experience and knowledge typically do not become obsolete, so it accumulates. The returns on experience diminish very slowly.
My hunch is that Techies, especially programmers, are more like Chess players than like Doctors. Our 22 year old intern has over 12 years of coding experience. I started coding around the same age as he did, but almost everything I learned in the first 20 years is obsolete now, except for the basic principles - which our intern learned in college. The returns on experience diminish very sharply.
It doesn't matter why he wants to work remotely. He could be Skynet for all people care.
Remote workers are not as productive as "there" workers on a number of levels guaranteed, and also quite possibly on actual measurable work performance too.
This is all about the perception the company has of him, not the other way around. "But he has XYZ" is completely irrelevant.
You must be one of the "everybody gets a trophy" generation. "Give me something (because of self-inflicted hardship)!" "I am an XYZ type person, give me something because of it!" Meh. Nobody wants that type around when the company might fail if the project fails.
I was posting in humor, something which on this website at least seems to be in dire need of a coding language change! The whole problem this fellow might be experiencing is the companies he is trying to work for need to hire on the cheap.
This is nothing new. There are many instances where hiring someone who is on the retirement side of the equation scares the hell out of the executive. He might actually be too good for the positions he is trying to apply for and might be hired on only as a project lead. In which case the choice of working only by remote is not exactly a desirable requirement. Like all situations where intensive communication is necessary for a job, face to face communications trump all other forms. Seeing something done in person face to face can work wonders or it can start wars depending upon the situation. E-mail, Skype, and all forms of remote communications can be positively counter productive if you are supervising a job.
It doesn't matter is you communicate as well as Walter Cronkite did you can just as easily be misunderstood without the marvel that is face to face interpersonal human discourse, which should facilitate positive debate, teaching and learning not just things like e-mail or Skype like or for that matter Slashdot like flame wars.
This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
There are people who RUN businesses, and there are people who are EMPLOYED by businesses. If they haven't "taken over the company" by age 40, they almost certainly won't. If they've been an employee for 20-30 years, that's probably because that's their preference or where their strengths lie. They aren't going to take over anything.
Of course, there's the rare case of someone has has run several businesses by age 40 taking non-executive employment for some reason, but that's not the usual case. I've run a few companies and I took an 8-5, but I think I'm the only one in a building with ~200 people. Nobody else here is going to take over squat because they'd rather show up at 8, leave at 5, and and collect their steady paycheck and benefits.
I tend to prefer joins over subqueries, and for many years I wouldn't use subqueries. However, in the very name SQL, Structured Query Language, "structured" means "with nesting". Complaining about nesting in SQL is kind of like complaining about hyperlinks in HTML.
Quarterly-report driven businesses are racing to the bottom of the skills pool, trying to find the least qualified, lowest cost cog that will not cause their business to implode.
Correction: That will not cause their business to implode before the CxO's grab the money and run.
Why wouldn't "my influences are primarily my own 35 years of wide experience" be a good answer?
The reality is that most new things are actually the same old rehashed ideas and concepts continually re-dredged up and re-lablelled, When you've been around for a while you get to recognise the same patterns over and over again clearly.
The problem comes where someone is surprised that I dont know all about such-and-such from some new book.
Pretty much every time this happens, I look into it and have completely seen it all before under another name, or no name at all, because many times its describing what is just basic common sense to us old farts.
More often than not I have already tried and decided about the same concept years before some bright spark thinks they have just discovered something new and highly insightful and writes a book about it.
Whats worse is that book becomes flavour of the month to interviewers, who mostly can only word-match on skill names, because they often haven't a clue about the actual field they're trying to employ people for, or what the job really takes, so they just don't get it, or believe me, and hire the monkey who remembered the book title instead.
No, you seem to have a problem with profanity in a public forum.
Please let's keep it clean here.
I see no convincing argument for this. Your prudishness is your issue, not Seumas's.
The convincing argument is that you should never talk dirtier than the boss. He/she might not say anything - except in terms of the next raise.
Fortunately, in my experience, it's hard to talk dirtier than most bosses.
Experience doesn't count for much in this industry. To the bean counters (aka the types that fund and managing projects), you will get more done with 2 programmers paid $25/hr than with 1 programmer paid $50/hr. It's the proverbial problem: you can't make a baby in 1 month with 9 women. But the bean counters don't see it that way. Their spreadsheets equates man hours to productivity and nothing else factors in.
Part of the problem is its practically impossible to adequately measure cause and effect: aka "this decision lead to +/- quality, +/- hours to implement the next feature."
I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
see my post below....chaching chaching. its about $ and nothing else.
I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
I'd expect a systems admin to be able to diagnose a problem like that -- not that ours can. But most programmers I meet can't. They'll be trying to fix their code all day long when their system has bad ram.
Our customers have the same problem. They'll be asking why our software is slow on "just this one node". Telling us to "fix the bug".
I have to look through system call timings, application logs, kernel messages, kernel dev tools blah blah to give them evidence of what I already know. "it's a hardware problem. It seems this is a known failure pattern in the linux kernel for cache coherency errors betwen SMP cpus".. or whatever. We're an application vendor. I guess these companies spend enough money with us that it's worth it to my employer for me to play tinker-toy remote systems admin for them via proxy of systems debugging.
I get roped into these problems because no one else on my team can figure them out.
It pays.
-josh
This is Slashdot, not a meeting with your boss. There's no need to watch our language.
I'm 50+ and after looking at vb 2008 last night I've decided young people can have that bullshit. Fuck programming, it's getting much, much worse.
True, but there's also a lot of muppets that think pay = experience = years on CV, some experience is of course necessary but perhaps say at 50 with 25 years of experience they want ridiculously much compared to a 35 year old with 10 years of experience. Of course you can say all experience even if it's now on obsolete technology or products is valuable, but I wouldn't add my Civilization playing experience as strategic and resource management either even though it's somewhat related. A lot of people just put on the cruise control too early, they've no longer got the big ambitions of career, they're just looking to float on their existing skill set into retirement.
I could point you to several examples, they got a lot of working knowledge of the organization and processes that they're at but if they have to apply for another job I'd probably hire someone half their age that wouldn't be grumbling because they're no longer a Senior Developer IV, their coding skills are rusty, their problem skills are to hit everything with the same hammer they've used since the 90s and they'd no longer have any particular insight in the product, the organization or the history behind it. That is obviously very important knowledge and maybe just as important as getting whiz-bang coder straight from university, but when you're first laid off it doesn't have much value to other employers.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That's the difficulty this guy is seeing. Telecommuting positions are fairly difficult to find. I looked for one on-and-off for about a half a year and never found a single one.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Because they don't want to pay you what you're worth. They'd rather hire someone younger, with less skills, that they can pay 1/3rd or less of what they'd pay you, who won't demand vacation pay, sick leave, time off, health benefits, or complain about working 80-hour weeks on salary.
When I hit 45 I put my plan in motion to retire by 55. Now, 5 years later, the plan is going well and I should be out in another 5. So why quit?
1) Everyone says tech is a young mans game. Bullshit, but the hiring managers believe it, so opportunities after 55 are few.
2) It has all become corporate. The suits used to leave us alone and if you knew what you were doing you were well rewarded and taken care of. Now we sweat out the next layoff every year because the suits think a grad fresh out of college can replace your 25 years of experience at 1/3 the cost. Or company lost several million a few years ago because they laid off the old guy who knew EVERYTHING. We blew an enormous order from a huge customer because that old guy wasn't here to show us how to do it right.
3) I want to enjoy life while still young. Sitting in front of a computer all day 5 days a week is not what life should be, even if it does pay well.
4) I want to get my ass out of the way and let the kids out of college have a damn job.
My 50 cents, and based on experience from a non-US country, but still ... true expertise IMHO is always in demand. However, you need to demonstrate that expertise by showing it in your work, and saying the right things in an interview. At least, if I was the one hiring.
Unfortunately, in terms of getting hired, there is a stereotype you need to fight, as some managers are sceptical towards hiring older IT employees. And I will be as politically incorrect as to bluntly state the truth as I see it ... there is a reason for that! If you encountered enough developers in various jobs, you have all encountered that person. The one who is starting to get a bit older, who is not quite up to par in their output, who absorb things a bit slower, always try to solve a problem in terms of the tools they know, not quite the level of energy of younger peers, without the same willingness to work late hours, not the one who brings a positive energy to the workplace. While at the same time possibly politically savvy and putting up "an air of expertise". Though as their managers eventually discover, there is a discrepancy between the level of expertise they project, and their actual contribution. And unfortunately, these "old farts" are often the most expensive guys on the budget, since they want to get paid for their "years of experience". Plus they are typically in positions of influence, and so bad performance has worse consequences. And thus, you get quite cautious as a manager about making a bad hiring decision for those types of positions.
So whereas age should not be a disqualifying factor, there is the reality that as people get older, an increasing share of those people will have lower output and less flexibility to adapt than younger peers. You need to be "ahead of the curve" in anticipating those concerns, and ensuring you demonstrate that there is nothing to worry about. You can even bring it out in the open, and state that "look, I know that there is some times concern about hiring older employees, and I can assure you that everything is ok in that area. Here is why ..." Real experience and skills will always show. But don't use age and tons and years of industry experience as the main selling point. Whenever I get that pitch without hearing the substance behind to actually prove it, I get sceptical.
Sure, I adapt, but can I adapt fast enough to survive 40 years in technology?
If you're any good, you definitely can. If you haven't become obsolete by your late thirties I'll bet you already know how to keep up. I'm a EE and I've known people in their 60's and 70's who started out working with tubes but have stayed bleeding edge all along. That includes one group I affectionately call the geriatric chip designers. Good luck finding people with more know-how in the difficult field of designing RF and hi-performance analog ASIC's. And yes, it's state-of-the-art stuff. The problem is that shortsighted management won't hire protégés to take over when these guys retire. That's not something you can do at the last minute either - try hiring them 10 or 20 years in advance, so they'll be knowledgeable enough when the old farts retire. I'm worried because several of the guys working on a chip for a project that I'm on have recently retired. BTW, did I mention that the chips these guys design are absolutely essential to a large company keeping its competitive edge in the largest part of their business?
The problem isn't keeping up, it's convincing idiots that there is such a thing as keeping up and that you're one of the people who's done it.
...is that they are...old. Most managers want to hire people who are younger than them. The last thing they want to do is to hire someone older who has a lot of experience and will sit around sniping everything that the manager does based on that older persons presumably vast experience. Another problem with older workers is that many have serious health issues that are costly to the company, cause attendance problems, and distract the team from the mission. The best approaches for older workers (i.e. over 50) are to work as consultants where experience is sought (if they have marketable expertise), start and operate a small business, look for work as a short-term contract worker where they can be easily let go if they are not working out, work construction if they are physically able, volunteer with non-profit organizations, or run for political office.
The Basic Income guarantee is something getting more discussion in German-speaking Europe. Because it makes increasing sense in the 21st century in developed countries.
Consider that most "work" in Germany, the UK and the US is what could be labeled as "bullshit jobs" (see www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/). People want to create and build, but modern economies have evolved in a perverse way such that most corporate jobs are essentially courtiers and actors. The real value is added by machines and 3rd world labor. The typical white collar worker's main task is to *appear* useful, necessary, and above all busy and stressed, while somehow evading metrics that actually hold them accountable for specific units of something. The key of course is not whether such a corporate drone produces anything, but whether his manager thinks he's necessary, in some way. This is the province of MBAs and culture consultants and so on.
But freed of the empty, value-subtracting exercise of faking hard work to aquire money credits, people would tend to gravitate toward whatever they're best at. Widespread ownership, or VAT taxes, of machines/robots will keep the funds flowing and get most of the work done, while humans do what they're best at. People get bored, research has found, and it's actually very hard to be a true "moocher." Even if it's creating beer can hats in Texas, people from all cultures are driven to create and build.
The Swiss are first to come to widespread awareness of this, and will vote soon on a small Basic Income for every citizen. My guess is it will not pass this election, but the insight will spread, rather like the awareness of a round planet or the existence of bacteria. So we'll probably see a Citizen's Income in Northern Europe and Japan first, then the English speaking countries.
It is also part of the "steady state economics" framework which humanity will be forced to adopt by the end of this century, if math prevails.
Find a contractor who works in the marketing field - you know, someone who specializes in things like building websites, developing CRM programs for companies, etc. Often the smaller marketing contractors have a hell of a time finding a tech person who can help support their projects. They also don't understand the nuances of how a lot of pieces of technology fit together. However, and most importantly for you, marketing budgets are fantastic if you're on the contractor end.
----- obSig
Judging from the lack of job offers though he is not "Kick ass."
I'm one of those older people being shoved aside because I'm (pick one) too old, too expensive, too inflexible, too whatever.
Never mind my degrees, my experience, my continuing education, my track record of success, my ability to adapt, or my insight. None of that matters, because someone 30 years my junior can (putatively) do the same job -- they'll cost half as much and work twice as many hours, until, of course, their time comes and they're replaced just like I've been.
The fact that I bring incredible value to the table doesn't matter: in a position I recently held, I was asked to evaluate a project that had already sucked down $1.8M. I studied it carefully for several months, and concluded that it was so badly and fundamentally flawed that it had no chance of success -- the best course of action was to dump it and start over. Management didn't want to hear that, so they discarded my careful analysis and eliminated my position. Four years later, after spending $12M, they finally axed the project -- after achieving nothing. It would have been more cost-effective for them to (a) take my advice and (b) pay me $100K/year for those four years to do nothing: they'd have saved $11.6M.
My point being that those of us who are older sometimes have very finely-tuned instincts about failure: we've experienced it enough to know what it looks like when it's still a long way off. Simply listening to us when we say "ummm...no, that's a bad idea" EVEN IF WE DO NOTHING ELSE is likely to result in an enormous payoff, since it'll help avoid wasted effort and budgets. But of course it rarely works out this way: it's easier to hire 20-somethings, underpay them, work them to death, and enjoy the chorus of "yes" "yes" and "YES" that they generate because they don't yet realize that's the wrong answer.
True, but one key is to differentiate yourself from the young-uns. I am over 65 and "officially" retired, but I can get as much business as I want. My philosophy is that if someone wants me to write code, my rate is not high enough. Instead, I offer myself as a mentor, or for technical due-diligence, or to help evaluate tech adoptions or architectural choices, or as an expert witness. I am still a productive programmer, but all my programming is now volunteer, open-source work, just for fun. When someone is paying me, I expect leverage. My personal productivity is much higher in mentoring and leadership roles. YMMV, of course.
I'm 58, and already my kids won't come into my office. My wife comes in occasionally, but she's in her fifties too, so she doesn't notice so much. We shouldn't pretend about this. Why do you think senior managers are given their own offices with windows?
So what are the options? Working remotely for sure. And having some embarrassing pics or info on your employer is pretty useful if you want to be known as someone who is too important to be fired. Knowing how to make stuff work and fix stuff tends to help. A sprinkling of craplang such as agile, scrum, burndown charts, etc, sometimes helps.
When I think about how the dev shops that have some part of their product that's outsourced, it pretty much stinks. It stinks to have to maintain it after its been created by the contractor/contracting-agency. It stinks to have to deal with contractors who aren't invested in the longevity of the product. That said, remote-only work for SQA -- I'm assuming the OP meant "software quality assurance" -- or hardware (again, assuming quality assurance here) is going to be hard to find by its very nature. Those roles have everything to do with a product that the potential employer probably doesn't want to stink. The potential employer probably wants the quality folks, at the very least, to be on site and in-house so that they can make doubly sure that their idea of quality is aligned with the business' idea of quality with regard to this product.
I'm saying this because I've had issues with Pride in the past. Management won't ever want to hear that the decision that they made to move forward on a project was a bad one. Further, they won't want to hear start over -- unless its an issue of pivot or go bankrupt. I'm surprised that, with your experience and the value that you bring to the table -- you didn't outline the pro's and cons and then let the management draw conclusions from that. Not only that, but if I took multiple months to come to this conclusion then it will take management a bit longer to come around. Normally, its pride and impatience that bites me in the @$$. I hope you don't struggle with the same.
And yes, it's got everything to do with your age and experience, but not the way that you think. I expect younger people to be inexperienced, and need supervision. I expect a young contractor to require management, and being told what to do. I also expect someone with your age and experience not to be a drain on society. I expect you to be running your own business, hiring your own young employees, and creating jobs.
If you've spent four decades working in the industry, and you haven't gotten to the point where you can start creating jobs, instead of just consuming them, then I don't value your experience anymore. It's that simple. It's your responsibility to start putting your money where your mouth is and to start taking your own employment risks. No one's ever refused to hire a company because the owner is 50+.
So that's my advice to you. Start creating jobs, stop consuming them.
Drop the first 10 years, or stuff unrelated to what you're doing now. You can always say, at the bottom, "Additional information upon request". I did that, and never got asked.
Oh, and nearly 10 years ago, I started dying my hair. And got a job where, in the time I was there, my manager turned 30.
A friend who was having trouble getting a job (also a programmer) - she's in her mid-forties - had started getting a few gray hairs... dyed them, and got a job fairly soon after.
There is an extreme agist bias in the industry, and the way the laws in the US are written, unless you've got seven witnesses and a video of them saying, "nyah, nyah, you're to old for me to hire", there's no way to prove it.
mark
I know you are a special little snowflake like the rest of us and if the world would just take a chance and get to know you...
You must acknowledge that you live in a world where old people are unappreciated and that experience counts for shit. People, your peers, your managers, YOU... we all are more readily fooled by appearances than convinced by substance. Thus, if you look like a tired old man, that is was you are and memorizing the .NET library isn't going to bail you out, sorry.
I made this mistake for years and thought that hard work and experience and knowledge would make it happen for me. Then I would get passed over in favor of some young punk in powerslacks, who I trained.
P.S. Betteridges Law
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
I was going to suggest octal - nobody reads that anymore, either - but realized that's easier to misinterpret as decimal, probably not helping the cause.
I am in my later 40s, and have been blessed to find my first remote work opportunity (coding) starting several months ago.
My previous position involved leadership, mentoring, etc. etc. and as such required an in-office presence, even though the boss grumbled about my salary and didn't give me a title or job description that implied those things, that's what he was paying for and what he really wanted. They hired "cheap" overseas remote coders (in addition to the in-office staff), and generally got what they paid for.
The position before that could have easily been 50% remote work, except the culture really didn't support it. Then, there was a startup I was talking to a few months back that asked the question "you don't need to come in and sit at a desk, do you?" They were looking to save on office space, and they needed to with their funding levels.
All in all, there is plenty of age/price discrimination out there, places that would rather hire two younger/cheaper heads instead of one older/more expensive one - and as the "old guy" I can sing all day long about how you can benefit from the experience, but that doesn't always get me the job.
As for remote work opportunities, from my perspective in the South-Eastern U.S., I feel like 90%+ of coders are still expected to come into the office, so if remote work is a requirement, you're amping up the competition by a factor of 10x or more, regardless of your age, beauty, experience or skill.
As someone who, at two months shy of turning 50, found himself unemployed as well as seeing how my brother, at 57, can't find anything other a retail job (he used to be an executive but was laid off), yes...it's real.
Some companies recognize that the old folks possess knowledge and business skills that took years to acquire. Yet, as we age, we cost companies more in terms of benefits (i.e. medical). And, we are at the top of the salary ranges in most cases. Businesses that look only at the bottom line are quick to let us go. Some regret it.
When I was last let go, there was a clause, in tiny and condensed print, that said to accept my severance (which sucked, btw), I couldn't sue under the Age Discrimination Act (which is supposed to protect those over 40). The also only let me go that day. Others, over the age of 40 have been let go...singly...so they don't have to report on the ages and positions of those let go. The average age at the company is now 36. The company has a 200 employees/consultants...a handful over the age of 45.
Another company that let a division go listed all employees ages and titles and division to show that age discrimination was not a factor. They complied 100% and also did their best to help us get placed and provided a REAL severance package that showed how much they really cared about the employees they were letting go. It was a great company.
I don't really want to be a manager...which is where most my age end up...I am a creative type. My resume shows my skills. But, I have been in the work force since 1979. It's not ethical to not list your previous employment if relevant. If you have gaps, you will probably be asked to explain them. So, it's hard to hide your likely age. They aren't stupid. And, some simply will bit bucket your CV as soon as they realize your age.
In the US, there is a list of questions they can't ask. But, your CV gives you away. In my case, I was lucky that 2 days after getting laid off - I had a chance encounter with an individual who needed someone with exactly my skill set. Age wasn't an issue as my experience is what he needed. Coding is being done by remarkable people who are far younger than I. That's fine with me as I am a systems architect and engineer.
Bottom line is you can't lie on your CV. A background check (which most employers do), will verify your CV. Most ask for references. They better be good ones. So, call the old employer and, if still on friendly terms with them, get their permission to use them as a reference. While HR can't ask certain questions....how the reference responds (like, hesitating or sounding bored or enthusiastic) makes a difference.
If I get laid off again (knock on wood), I will likely be self-employed or doing contract work.
We get people who want security jobs who can't answer, "What's the difference between a GET and a POST request?"
A GET request doesn't always get you a sandwich, while SUDO GET does.
What the hell's a POST? Cereal??
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
I love watching youthful ./ folk give advice on topics for which they have no credible experience.
I'm 72 now, and still gainfully employed...just not by 35-year-old "managers" (or worse, "executives") who haven't got any substantive experience to evaluate competence. After a career consulting to IBM, Intel, HP, Amoco, DuPont (and lots more) at the CxO level on IT strategy, I semi-retired in 2001, to a small mountain town nestled in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Up here, the body of "technical talent" is composed of self-taught "experts" who wouldn't know how to make changes to a registry, or whip up a quick script to solve a user's persistent problem.
So, I reached out to local businesses with computers who experienced lots of "crashes" and "fatal errors" and had gaming computers when they needed a laptop ('cause that's what the local store wanted to sell). I have several clients who keep me busy, and who have learned to accept my counsel as focused on THEIR business needs, not what's convenient for me.
The trick, for me, was to figure out what services to offer (hint: what they want, not what I want to do), and how to price my services; small businesses HATE to pay by the hour, because they understand that provides incentives to waste time in getting to the solution. I changed the model to a fixed monthly fee for most services, and a price schedule for extraordinary things (like properly configuring a new computer to add to the network). I make a comfortable living that supplements other family income, and keep my skills sharp.
Find your own path and make it yours. Don't try to get hired by people who can't appreciate your value. That way lies madness. --cao
Well, hex is fine to give the age up to 57. From 50 to 57, it makes you look really youg: 32 to 39. Then at 58, it starts to look weird: 3A.
As a software developer who is over 50 I too have found job search to be very difficult. If it isn't the laundry list of obscure requirements there is always someone who isn't technically competent telling me that I'm not qualified to do the work. Although I've been told that I have a "strong" resume, responses from job applications I submit are few.
Being a very introverted individual, I have found human networking (as opposed to computer networking) to be painfully difficult. The best solution I've found with human networking is to have a former co-worker who is willing to act as an advocate for me within the organization. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with many former co-workers and am uncomfortable approaching the few that remain.
All that being said, I have found that things will eventually work out ... it's just a question of how long.
They *THINK* they can get someone younger for much less pay.
And they *THINK* they will get all the experience from that younger person too.
And they're the ones signing the paychecks, so any difference between what they think and reality is irrelevant.
I'm 55 and I have to beat them off with a stick. I also don't require remote work... I'd like and sometimes get it, but I don't require it.
. . . this "older" dood still doesn't understand this???????
A couple of network engineers in Austin once used the same argument to me when I warned them about offshoring at their corporation (back around 2003-2004). The next time I happened to see them, they were being interviewed by a local Austin TV reporter, and were living in a park in Austin!
....as it has turned out to be. (WTF?)
No offense, dood, since you make several lucid comments, but have you ever familiarized with the habitat in which you exist (namely America)? I mean, we have been in the "official" 4th jobless recovery, (really the 6th), which means that of those jobs lost, only half again are created, and of those, half are at less wages than those lost, and a larger portion than ever are now temporary or contractor jobs.
You are now beginning to realize why David Rockefeller accompanied President Nixon and Henry Kissinger aboard those flights to China when they were opening relations with them (Rockefeller established banking operations in both Beijing and Moscow back in 1973). You may now be realizing why David Rockefeller founded the Council of the Americas to lobby for the passage of NAFTA --- which was primarily about allowing for foreign ownership of Mexican banks, and secondarily about offshoring jobs there. You may now be realizing that TPP, or Trans-Pacific Partnership, is the mother of all "free trade" agreements, and that along with TAFTA or the Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement, we are truly screwed in America?
Have a nice day, dood!
This is Slashdot, not a meeting with your boss. There's no need to watch our language.
Does your fucking boss know your fucking username? Don't develop fucking habits that might fucking slip out when you don't fucking want them to!
....by understanding that back in 2000 or around there, there were four countries in the Middle East which had yet to sign onto the WTO's Financial Services Agreement (allowing for foreign ownership of banks and acceptance of credit derivatives): Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran (since then, Iraq, an invaded country, and Libya, with their overthrown government, have since signed on).
Starting to wise up a bit?
If you're 75, base 36 starts to look darn good.
That's because at one time or another they've hit a glass ceiling. You can work on project X at company A. A year later, they decide to start work on project Y and those with seniority are moved onto that project. But they decide to discontinue project X. All the other companies are now only considering people that are on project Y.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Now now, language :P
Does your fucking boss know your fucking username?
No, but I wouldn't mind being known to have sworn on the internet on my own time. It's not like I'm promoting racial hatred.
Don't develop fucking habits that might fucking slip out when you don't fucking want them to!
I think this would be more of a concern regarding how you speak casually, than how you phrase comments that you post on the web. All things in moderation.
He's not talking about Sys Admins, he's talking about DEVELOPERS.
Yes, I expect someone with an IT degree and 5 years of Sys Admin experience to spot those hardware errors, and they usually will. But a guy with a Software Engineering degree and 5 years of Java development? Some of the ones I've met can barely find the power button, let alone know that they should occasionally defrag the hard drive on their Windows machine.
Sorry, but the idea of letting people work from home just isn't that good. The reason off-shoring an suck isn't because it's indians or chinese people, it's because having people spread all around makes it hard to have a good solid team. I think companies are realising that so you might have to get out of your pajamas and actually leave the home.
Could be either that is the problem.
Also I take exception to this statement: "I have the skills and the aptitude to absorb and adapt to any new situations and languages way beyond what any of my college age brethren might have."
Really? Prove it. I am in my mid 40's and am pretty good at my job... but I have met more than a few very sharp youngsters in recent years. While I agree that you and I have risen far above the average new graduate (we wouldn't have lasted if we weren't good) that does not mean there aren't young geniuses out there that put us to shame. But I guess that since they don't know Pascal or (insert worthless/obsolete skill set here) they are worthless.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
That is basically true.
>> I have the skills and the aptitude to absorb and adapt to any new situations and languages way beyond what any of my college age brethren might have...
He admits he doesn't have the required experience in many cases (but claims he could learn fast). Why pay 3x more for someone to come up to speed?
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Hear, hear! I'm primarily an EE, both often spend a lot of time coding. When I was new to the field, my mentor (also an EE) highly recommended that I take some courses in algorithms and data structures. Some of the stuff I'd already learned on my own, but some basic subjects are best learned in a formal course where you can't say "I'm not interested in that part today". Best damn advice I ever got (well, second best, but I ignored the bit about staying single). Languages I can learn till they're coming out my ears. So what. Although "Ruby on Cheese"? Couldn't hurt to brush up on it just in case.
POST stands for Power On Self Test... that and wget will download you a better sandwich than Root access will.
>
It pays.
This is exactly why I am working on learning the programing side of things. I have found having some knowledge of what an application is trying to do when it fails to be invaluable. I wish to expand my knowledge in that respect and then capitalize on it.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
congratulations, you win a "whoosh"... I know exactly which POST you are referring to (web forms), maybe my humor is too subtle
Some old people don't know shit. They still use sccs and rcs, pre ansi c and perl to write software because they won't learn new stuff.
How can "they" still use sccs? AFAIK, nobody even supports it now. Maybe you can find it on Solaris (uh, I mean Oracle) systems, but I'd guess that's pretty much it. Gnu cssc is capable enough to convert old repositories to something else, but beyond that, I'm guessing there aren't many people (old or young) who use sccs for serious revision management.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
The best advice I have for anyone as they get older in this business is to network and build lasting relationships. Be the guy who gets things done with few defects. Be the guy who isn't afraid of new tech. Be the guy who your managers depend on and then follow those managers to new opportunities as necessary and if possible.
I've had managers tell me, "If these people are ever stupid enough to lay you off, give me a call.", which is exactly what I did when I did finally get laid off as the last engineering jobs on the product I used to work on went to China.
I have been working remotely, non-contract, full time for 18 years. If I didn't have manager connections who knew me to be very productive working from home, I expect I would have had a hard time finding another remote position. There are some companies that prefer remotes though, so that is one place to look.
I have been doing commercial software development though, not internal IT, so YMMV.
OTOH ... would you hire an old plumber for twice as much, if the only thing you got out of it was that he is old?
Now, I gather that the OP's argument is that him being older is not all they would get out of paying him more, but it's up to him to make that case.
> No paperwork. No taxes. No health insurance. No legal liability.
It would appear that ShanghaiBill is either a free rider. If he were hiring locally in Pakistan or China, he might be able to avoid some of these "costs", but not all. In fact, there would be additional costs, in the form of bribes and kickbacks to get his infrastructure up and stay up, poor security for his person, and arbitrary application of laws, regulations, and jurisprudence when he comes in contact with organs on the government. Instead, Bill huddles within the relative safety what I'll assume is an OECD member state, probably the US, and skates on covering a good portion of the costs that make his cozy existence possible.
What an amoral fucker. All "Wealth of Nations", without the "Theory of Moral Sentiments".
Luke, help me take this mask off
There's a lot of weird opinions in the comments I've read so far (wait a minute, am I on Slashdot?).
First: The poster wants to telecommute exclusively to do "hardware and network" stuff. That's why he can't find any work. Simple as that. Be willing to get your old ass to the office and you'll find a job.
Second: People argue until they're blue about "old workers" vs "young workers". The fact is that the "team" is what matters, believe it or not. At my job we needed to add a new programmer to our small team, and my boss made sure that I was involved in the interview process. We interviewed three potential candidates: One was a Harvard graduate, one was a very talented middle-aged programmer, and the last was a decently talented 30-something. We caught the Harvard graduate in a lie, so he was out. The middle-aged programmer was absolutely amazing; he would have brought a ton of experience and raw talent to the team, however he was "so much better" than the rest of us that it probably would have created problems in working together. We ended up going with the 30-something, and he's working out just great because he's on the same level as the rest of us.
Every team is unique, and being better than the rest is not always a good thing when you're concerned about getting work done.
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
Only someone who has never run a business before could confuse the simplicity of being an employee with the massive headache of running a business. When running your own business the payoffs are greater for sure but the sacrifices are innumerable.
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
One point not made. It may not be you. In an effort to be 'fair', we have created a workplace where bosses are scared to death to hire anyone except young white, asian, or Euro males. All others, older, female (especially of childbearing age), or any protected minority are to be avoided. Reason? It is a major liability if you need them to perform and they cannot. 'Surprise' pregnancies, 'sudden' discrimination ('someone in the parking lot has a Confederate Flag on their truck') or stubbornness to 'change the way I have write code for 20 years ' will delay products and programs. Bosses cannot just replace people, and get no slack from the management to the issues. Why would any front line manager hire anyone but young, white/Asian/Euro males? I am not defending this attitude, but stating it is the way the world is now. We have pushed discrimination to the point where it hurts the very people that the laws were designed to help. Your Government at work.
In other word, your matra is "help! the paranoids are chasing me"
I am now 51 years old and have been in the tech field since PCs came into the work place and home. It all started for me when "Dealer swaps" became necessary at my workplace. When I was a car salesman before computers became common I worked as a salesman at a GMC, Volkswagen dealership. No one knew how to operate the computer and were afraid to try and use it for locating the nearest car that we needed that a customer wanted. Whatever the reason may have been like a certain trim package or what have you. I became frustrated with management over this because they could not operate the computer and I was losing sales over it. I said "I'll take a look at it", "No, it's too complicated" they said. Bullshit. Giant hulk of a machine and a blinking cursor. Okay. I grabbed the manual and have never looked back. I became their "go to guy" on that system. Not to mention increasing my own sales I got allot of free coffee and donuts out of that. I started my own home based "Call out" computer repair/networking business and was quite successful. I went to a tech school and got my "Paper". As time marched on and many, MANY people were pumped out of these smaller schools that were popping up around the country the computer repair business became a cut throat business and that was okay, for a while. Then it reached ridiculous proportions where that particular business model was no longer viable. Having been a motor head in the 70's (Which is what got me into car sales to begin with) I was very handy at turning wrenches. I kept seeing these ads in the paper from huge companies like General Mills etc looking for "technicians". It turns out they have an aging group of people and no fresh blood to speak of. I found a niche. Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs). Instead of an office I am in an industrial setting now and am considered to be blue collar. But you know what? I work with computers, ladder programing, PLCs, touch screen all in one heavy application computers some of which run open source OS's and many other technologies. Now I make 6 figures a year. So if you are having difficulty finding work and can switch gears just a little bit, you may want to look at this. Just thought I'd share that.
Not trolling here. We were recently in a hiring process. We might have been able to use someone with your skills if they fit the profile we were looking for. Careface (or anyone else reading come to that) - PM me your resume. We filled the current open position but we may have another opportunity in the New Year. We *required* a teleworker - our whole team telecommutes and we're all in the US. We communicate on a daily basis via IM and sometimes Skype and have regular phone teleconferences too, and there are no slackers on the team; everyone is self-motivated.
A lot of times it isn't really the age, it's how much you're charging. That's because a guy with that much experience is more likely to be pulling 200K, perhaps more. A guy out of college you can get for 60K. Often less than that.
To get around this, use things like linked in. Network like crazy to find those jobs. Use the computer to your advantage. Otherwise I hope you have enough saved up or some way of getting re-occuring income. There's also javascript. You can do that from home if you learn it.
I'm in the same boat. Good luck.
I spent 20 years contracting in Silicon Valley after working for Apple in the late 80's. I could tell lots of stories relative to the OP's question, but I am going to boil this down for you young whippersnappers who are going to down-vote this post no matter what. I found a few reasons why OP would ask these questions: 1. Some managers, particularly under age 40, are assholes who, even in this connected age, if they can't see you typing away all day, right under their noses, believe you are "not productive", a term others seem to toss around in their answers. What is productive? 100 lines of code a day, or 20 lines that actually work? What proof? Well how about the silly ass religious adoption of "agile" methodologies. How can everybody look over each other's shoulders if they aren't all in the "hive"? Clearly, these managers have never worked with someone with serious experience. The mania for groupthink management has always originated in academia, where the rubber meets the sky when it comes to shipping anything more than research projects, not real commercial work. 2. Managers hiring "older workers" object to paying them nearly as much (or more) than they themselves make. The younger the manager, the worse this is an issue. They prefer to hire people younger (and cheaper) than themselves. 3. Younger managers don't possess the life experience to appreciate hiring people who are smarter or more experienced than themselves. They feel threatened by experience, not appreciative of it. And they are naively convinced that hiring two younger, cheaper guys is a better bet than hiring one, more expensive, more experienced one. They end up with crap code that maybe works and rarely scales or is resource efficient. I made lots of money mopping up after exactly these kinds of failures. 4. And lest I come off as a "young manager hater", most older managers suffer from some of the same issues, particularly the "I don't want to pay you as much as me" and "I don't believe you are working unless I can see you". But they are even less likely to hire offsite workers, frequently being utterly ignorant of the collaboration technologies that are in common use today. So I don't believe there is any misconception about there being age discrimination in the business of software development. I have seen it first hand. But being old or having 30 years' experience does not give anybody a right to a job. You have to have relevant experience. I figure everything in this business is obsolete in about 3 years, so anybody who has more than 3 years of experience has to have learned new technologies in order to remain relevant. This cycle never stops and it gets shorter every year. But even if you have the latest tech under your belt, there are still age and location to consider. I beat them by remaining current, networking constantly, and living where the work is. Anything less will make it harder. But that doesn't invalidate the points above. Of course, YMMV.
I don't have a problem with it at all. Thanks for the concern, though.
Some of the most vile-mouthed people I have ever known are radio personalities (DJs, talk show hosts, etc) -- a profession in which slipping with foul language can have significant impact on yourself and your employer. I really have to wonder about people who are not capable of (or do not feel they are capable of) knowing when to restrain their language. If you can't watch your tongue when spending the holiday with your mother or your super-religious in-laws, or while on the clock at work, or in other professional environments, then . . . well . . . that seems like a big problem. :)
The other most vile-mouthed people I've ever known are colleagues in the tech industry. Some of them have been my bosses. One of them was a decorated and published former marine who was the director of our entire technical division. However, these people do not carry over the casual discussion, off-duty, lunch-time, having-a-beer-down-the-street language (or topics) into the office. Because, you know, we're all grown-ups. :)
Would you be willing to drop $100k up front to cover relocation expense for such a person? I'm thinking probably not.
$100K? What planet are you on?
Presuming you're spoiling your potential employee:
A large house, with full pack and unpack, runs in the 10-15k range depending upon distance.
Putting them up in a hotel during a house hunting trip - $1500.
Airline (presumably) for 2 people - $1000
I can't imagine what else you think people get offered in regards to relocation by a software company. Most software companies simply give you a flat amount of money for relocation that you can do with what you wish (watch out for the I.R.S. though...) ;)
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The cost of selling a home easily runs 10% of the price, much going to the price-fixing realtors. That gets you up toward the $100k mark. Then factor in the negative equity that is common these days.
I'm sorry, why would I (the business owner) be paying for someone to sell their home?
I don't know any software company that does this for you, and the large corporations that I know that do this only do it in certain situations for certain employees, and the costs come out of the profits from the sale of the home. The corporations evaluate whether or not there is a likely hood of the costs being covered before agreeing to do this (i.e. General Electric.)
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That's my point: it doesn't happen for non-executives any more, and it prevents people from being able to move around the country at an employer's whim.
It has always been a rarity, even when the real estate market was bonkers on the plus side.
The only times I've ever heard of it being used for non-executives was when a company, such as SIEMENS, needed someone to relocate someplace they weren't interested in living (like some booming oil town in some crap hole someplace) but they company really needed.
As to your "point", your reply to my original post was asking me if I was willing to drop $100k on a senior QA guy to "cover relocation expense." That's not quite the same point as "no longer do non executives gets $100k relocation packages."
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It is indeed the same point: you can't expect senior people to be nomadic.
Surely you're joking... Senior people can't be expected to relocate? You better live in the Bay Area, San Jose, or Seattle with that attitude.
I'm not sure which economy you think we're living in, but I certainly would expect a lot of compromises on my part if I couldn't relocate to accept a job...
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"If all you're looking at is the cost per head that can produce n lines per day, without any regard for the quality of that work, the youngsters look like a real bargain."
A prescription for going out of business quickly is what this is...
Murphy was an optimist
You didn't retire early at all. Most of us retires in a late 30s, early 40s.
I'm not even sure what's meant by "hardware" precisely, but how does one collaborate in regards to it via internet tools? If you're configuring, testing, dealing with physical stuff do they have to mail it to you or something? The only remote QA I've ever worked with was offshore... and it was really bad with no motivation for it to get better since these guys had no connection with the team whatsoever. I'm not saying remote QA can't be done right but the idea may have left a bad cultural taste in a lot of engineers' mouths.
At the end of the day, there's a lot of legit and/or stupid but culturally powerful reasons people won't do remote. You have to be reducing your options by at least 95% in any job to take a telecommute-only policy. I'm sure age discrimination exists but I wouldn't expect it to be so bad that you won't even get hired anymore. But you might need to let go of remote-only if that's something you can control.
Don't be too sure that's always the hidden motivation. I'm a very strong core JavaScript dev with only 6 years of experience and plenty of the latest stuff but that happens to me all the time. I could write a decent book on JS and I've had tech interviews stop early and get moved to the next phase based on my expertise with it but I'll lose out because I didn't learn or don't have years of experience in the 1 out of 6 popular app architecture frameworks d'jour that they wanted. Just stupid stuff that takes a couple days to get competent with, a week or two to really master.
Sometimes you have to sit down and self-teach some of this fad-tech junk just to get past the people who think finding qualified candidates is like ordering on a menu and will ignore the fact that you're a monster on the core technologies because of some triviality that within a week or two of hire won't matter a tenth as much as how much depth somebody has in the actual language.
Also, you might be running into a common programmer prejudice. You only have C/C++ on your list. That bugs me less than just C# or Java or Python, (definitely just JavaScript - very little excuse there since we're exposed to so much via back-ends we work with) but a lot of devs are skeptical of people who have been at it for more than a couple years and only learned one language, or perhaps more accurately one language and the same language with a giant robot OOP arm bolted on to it.
I like giving it in hex. If they can figure that out, odds are good they care more about talent than age, regardless.