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Snowden Document Says Dutch Secret Service Hacks Internet Forums
vikingpower writes "In the ever-longer wake of the NSA scandal, much-respected Dutch newspaper NRC today reveals, in English, as mandated by the gravity of the occasion, that the Dutch secret service, the AIVD, hacks internet forums. And yes, that is gross misconduct against Dutch law. The service, whose headquarters are in Zoetermeer, did not yet comment upon the divulgence of the document from Edward Snowden's collection. Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry."
People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch
Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service spends at least part of its time spying on its own citizens. If this is news to you, then you will surely be traumatized when you find out that every country tortures people during wars and most torture a few during times of peace. Who do you think Lady GaGa sells most of her recordings to?
Last sentence of the TFA:
Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry
Are the politicians really incensed ?
Aww ...
Please don't disappoint me.
Please don't tell me that the Dutch politicians are all angels !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The Dutch normally speak Dutch, because, well, it's their native tongue. Dutch itself is pretty close to German, but neither are world-popular language. As such, most people in the Netherlands speak English as well, because they're a hub of business. Publishing this in English ensures it's widely readable to the rest of the world.
Just because so many governments do it, it doesn't make it any more right. Quite the contrary. This revelation only removes "the Moral High Ground" from another nation's people.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
It might not be news, but it is still stuff that matters!
I want the world I live in to be a good place, not a place where, as you put it, people are tortured and spied upon. I want to be able to sleep at night, knowing that my government works for basic human rights, including the right to privacy and the right to not be tortured in some prison camp!
The more the wrongdoings of the governments of the west are exposed, the easier it is to stand up against them using non-violent means like voting and demonstrating. So, don't come here and tell me that it isn't in the category news and/or stuff that matters. I for one don't accept the world I live in, and I want to change it for the better.
Do not worry, there is a dutch version as well: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/11/30/aivd-hackt-internetfora-tegen-wet-in/
Sick of this "Everyone does it!".
Child trafficking is rampant.
So it's OK if I do it?
Sure, it wasn't good when the NSA was spying, the GCHQ revelations made the situation worse. Australian spying was pretty bad too.
But, Dutch internet spying is taking it all just too far. This is the tipping point, the world's civilian populace will surely rise up against Dutch spying!
Ooh The Voice(wost show ever) is on!
The real question is, of course, if Slashdot is using mySQL as well.
(Don't bother: if you did not read the article, you will not understand the comment)
The real question is: how did the NSA know that the Dutch secret service was doing this?
Either the NSA is spying on the spies, or they're sharing data.
Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service spends at least part of its time spying on its own citizens.
Yes, we know, you knew this ages ago before anyone else because it's obvious, and nobody else should be surprised. Knowing is not the point. The point is that a lot of people weren't aware of the extent or scale of it, and "revealing" this information with solid proof of what's going on sparks a debate in the relevant countries of whether or not this is acceptable and whether or not they're OK with it. The fact that it is going on is not the big deal here, the big deal is whether or not people think it is acceptable, and that debate can only be informed with solid information rather than "of course they spy on us! That's obvious!" hand waving. You make it sound like we should never start discussions about what our governments are up to because it's all so obvious anyway.
As an aside, the oversight committee says that some of what they did was "“not in accordance with Dutch law”, and a few Dutch MPs are calling for an inquiry. What happens (or doesn't as the case may be) in response to that can be say a lot of interesting things about a government and again help citizens form an opinion of their government or their neighbours government.
The real question is: how did the NSA know that the Dutch secret service was doing this?
They were paying them to do it?
No left turn unstoned.
Someone please tell me that APK doesn't have a new (or rather, additional) obsession to blather on about.
but [German is not] a world-popular language.
Yet.
Send in the panzers!!!!
You thought all those comments about grammar-nazis were just jokes, eh?
Today your diction... tomorrow the world!
And yes, that is gross misconduct against Dutch law.
Just because Snowden alleges anything doesn't necessarily mean that thing is true. Snowden must provide enough proof (be it direct or indirect) for his claims to be actually taken seriously.
Therefore, by logic, the OP should have actually commented "what WOULD BE gross misconduct against Dutch law".
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
The AIVD did comment, even before the NRC published the article: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3033/interception/ (Dutch)
And after the article was published: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3034/reactie-nrc/ (Dutch)
According to them, this is allowed by the current law. However, a lot of parties in parliament and expers don't agree with this assesment and are starting actions to disallow this kind of investigation.
Only because they fear they may be spied on too.
Why were we ever surprised that government spies are acting like spies and ignoring the letter of the law to collect confidential information?
Rains' character is shocked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc if you want to learn a bit about Dutch and The Netherlands.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Reality is vomit-inducing. It's not his fault.
"Snowden says all dogs go to heaven!"
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
- post (damn Slashdot constraints on the length of the subject)
It looks like the scandal in The Netherlands about the NSA from what is revealed by Snowden, is mainly the *lack* of anything scandalous at all. There was a four-page article in a leading newspaper the other week about it, and the most it could claim was that we were infiltrated from 1947 until 1968 and that, every now and then, they might take a poorly protected mySQL database on some poor slob's website.
I don't mean to sound like those other 'security experts' who feign fatigue and familiarity with NSA's practices, but this one mainly stood out by its complete and utter boringness, I tell you.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Eh.. because 'friendly' spying agencies are well-known for the way in which they exchange this kind of information?
/ Seriously.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
I would like to remind them, that as a trusted slashdot presonality, I, Anonymous Coward, can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their undergorund data mines.
I'm a Dutch, living abroad.
What I can say is that the situation has deteriorated over the past decade. Mostly thanks to kowtowing to the US. Nowadays everyone has to carry ID all the time; that's since just over a decade (and the rule was implemented remarkably silently). You have to give fingerprints for your passport, officially to make it more secure (but does it? Last summer I didn't see fingerprint scanners at the border, for example).
Overall I think the Dutch do not fear their government (not like in more totalitarian states like the US, where everyone seems to fear their government), at least I don't exactly fear the government. It is chosen democratically, high degree of freedom of expression, and a free and strong press takes care of providing a proper counterbalance.
The police in general do not abuse their power. Though over the past ten years there are more and more laws that give the police opportunities to abuse power, like the right to conduct random searches of people and vehicles. Police for example can at any time without giving a reason cordon off a street and search anyone that happens to be in that area.
This AIVD thing is different, though. I don't consider AIVD to be government, they're more like police or judiciary: paid for but independent of the government. They have a mandate, to collect intelligence, and there are laws regulating what they can and can not do. Governments of all countries do this, it's normal part of police work too.
What happened here appears to be outside that mandate (it should be, imho, but I don't know what the law says or what exactly happened). If they want info from a forum, they can just register as user (may need some undercover work, whatever), and read all posts on that forum - like any user can. It's not OK to hack into a server, and download complete databases, that's going too far. In case of a known criminal link, it's defensible, but in this case there seems to be no such suspicion.
The OP was probably just gloating because many non-U.S. has been condemning U.S. for spying and torturing as if it doesn't go on by all as human nature.
The point is that a lot of people weren't aware of the extent or scale of it
Most people didn't know about this at all. Unsurprisingly, most people are also highly unintelligent.
I am not my government.
I do not want this.
Therefore I can be outraged at YOUR government's villainy just fine, thank you.
Anybody thinking that Russia took him so that they got a chance to censor their secrets?
Reminds me of the scene in Iron Sky when the President asks "OK, anybody who doesn't have an armed space station raise their hand."
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
News Flash! Intelligence agencies caught gathering intelligence! Film at 11!
I'm all for the 1000 year rike.
no, just shockingly arrogant,
have you ever met the amish?
There seems to be many smart Dutch people in the open source world. To throw a couple of names, Bram Moolenaar, who is the Vim author, and...uhh...Andrew Tanenbaum...
Yes, let's accept despicable behaviour to make ourselves look jaded and cool on the internet. That is a great solution to all problems!
Whether it`s Dutch, German or English, it should be fora... not forums.
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
Ot should that be "whose client they are".
Who gives.
Apathic troll.
Die.
Dutch itself is pretty close to German
Don't ever say this to a Dutchman.
rike? Try Reich
While certain diplomatic and economic relations are under strain and protests go on all over, it's important to note that none of the surveillance and other civil rights and outright illegal activity has slowed or stopped at all. In some ways it seems to have increased.
Demanding that these activities cease is action #1.
Whether it`s Dutch, German or English, it should be fora... not forums.
In the Dutch version, it is!
At least they don't hard code their !@#$%%# subtitles before the upload their rips. Even they're not that discourteous.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I got modded into flamebait (I guess I'll simply have to stop commenting on Snowden leaks), but you provided a good response. Thank you for the explanation.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Yes, I have met many Amish. They are not Dutch. You might enjoy reading up on Amish/Mennonite history. They are a facinating people. I grew up around them in Central Pennsylvania, USA. I greatly admire their integrity, work ethic, humility and grace. If someone finds them arrogant or dumb, it is probably because that person has been rude or offensive to them and they are attempting to not reply in kind.
You have to give fingerprints for your passport, officially to make it more secure (but does it? Last summer I didn't see fingerprint scanners at the border, for example).
The fingerprints are likely stored for verification purposes and might be sent out to requesting authorities across the world to combat passport forgery.
It's not OK to hack into a server, and download complete databases, that's going too far. In case of a known criminal link, it's defensible, but in this case there seems to be no such suspicion.
The article suggests that there might have been a target there, but surely then the data gathering could have been focused on the target and it's social graph? Reading the English article it really seems like the Facebook generation has entered in the service of the public. The result is "no more privacy" and "people who think they are entitled to privacy as part of their human rights are either dead, should be dead, in the old people's home or criminals and pedophiles."
In my neighborhood of 1.5 million people who represent a significant part of the population, over 70% are Facebook users. I think I'm on the losing side of the next civil war already.
It really bothers me how many Americans have called Snowden a traitor. He is a hero braving to do what too few others in the know have done.
Actually, both are equally correct in Dutch.
And on the Eighth Day, Man created God.
You're correct, Sir.
I've also personally witnessed that the Dutch tend so speak a much, much better English than the rest of Europe. I'm saying this as a French, who is generally a people who don't speak other languages very well. I believe this is because in the Netherlands almost no English program is dubbed, so people develop a good skill for the language. Since I travel across all of Europe, I've noted that countries that usually dub the English program (Germany, France, Spain, Italy) tend to have a lower English level than the countries who don't (Portugal, Netherlands, Nordics, ...).
I'm all for preserving languages with a strong literary background (I'm mostly familiar with France's, obviously, but I do believe it's known worldwide thanks to people like Victor Hugo, Balzac or other great authors), but when it makes those people basically speak only their native tongue it's a little sad.
So your point is...?
- We should all just shut up like good sheeple?
- We should learn to like spying?
- Torture is good!
- They are saving us from the terrorists!
- Lady Gaga?
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Do each of them pay their own way?
A civil war between those with Facebook accounts and those without? I'm in, even if we're outnumbered.
Yes, but in the Dutch version, it is written fora, so if you wanted to be a pain about it, you could. The point is moot anyway, because there's no reason (other than convention) to favor forums over fora in English.
The fingerprints are likely stored for verification purposes and might be sent out to requesting authorities across the world to combat passport forgery.
That doesn't improve the situation in the least. Violating people's privacy for security purposes is not acceptable.
Bram Moolenaar, who is the Vim author
Well, there you go. He's obviously mentally deranged.
Whenever one of their citizens posts a new movie on the Internet, they invariably hard code Dutch Subtitles, despite the fact that using the .mkv format *it's more difficult to hard code Subtitles than simply mux them in.
Every time you see one of these, you know the Dutch are just dumb.
And yet its the Americans who are too dumb and build cities that are submerged by floods.
They're so dumb in fact that they have to ask the Dutch for advices in how to deal with climate change and rising seawater levels. Oh but I forget, the Americans are too dumb to even think climate change is real.
Yanks enjoy your underwater cities in the next 100-200 years. Mission accomplished.
Maybe you missed it... The German was almost a primary language of America :-)
Navel gazing is France's raison d'être (They lost an empire, they lost the ability to decide Europe's future, they've lost the so called French Grandeur...). At this point don't take them seriously on anthying. The world just passed them by.
France has had no interest in deciding the "future of Europe" since Napoleon. It's like you're complaining about Obama because of something the Cherokees did.
I agree and as I am English (and thus speak only one language) I should be able to judge their aptitude. In fact, the Dutch seem to be amazingly good with languages and often their English is better than native speakers.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
What's not to rike?
When I was in the Peace Corps (American) in Africa, I met several Dutch Peace Corps volunteers. They were all multilingual and their English was almost perfect. They told me that when you come from a small country surrounded larger countries that speak other languages, you learn their languages. They were all great people. The world could use more people like the Dutch.
Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
In fact, it's Britney Spears who is used in this capacity: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/29/britney-spears-navy-scare-somali-pirates
soylentnews.org
It's a fact that the Dutch language sits somewhere between English and German, all three have a common Germanic ancestor.
Please ignore the idiots that keep repeating something that happened well before their time.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
And keep repeating the unasked for message.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Because voting and demonstrating has done so well at preventing these atrocious abuses of power and corruption, right?
ROR
Well, why do you think this is part of the NSA leaks? U.S. have pressured many smaller nations in being part of their surveillance machinery, I would be surprised if this isn't the case here too.
Except that they aren't exchanging data. It is a one way transfer to NSA.
And I can largely subscribe to the points you are making.
We don't have the 'fear' or hatred of our government you sometimes read about on
So in this particular case we will see some interesting debates between the executive and the elected legislature.
I just read a statement by the responsible minister Plasterk who says he feels the AIVD (secret service) is working within the law.
He refuses to go into detail but admits the AIVD is targeting fora where people are called upon to take part in violence and fora with violent video's. He states the authority (CTIVD) tasked with supervision of the secret services did not see reasons to correct the activities of the services.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service spends at least part of its time spying on its own citizens.
Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service routinely violates their countries laws, international laws, and the laws of good taste and decency.
There, I fixed it for you.
The US only tortures prisoners under usual conditions with lousy cells, boredom and really lousy food. Even during WWII the torture of an enemy prisoner was very rare. One exception was German submariners as submarines were considered unfair and sort of evil. But almost all other prisoners were treated unusually well.
Lately we have the sad experience of the Bush administration using torture on suspected terrorists and frankly it is a national embarrassment and effectively implies consent to torture US servicemen who are captured. The US has lost our moral authority over a rather weak and pitiful enemy.
The more the wrongdoings of the governments of the west are exposed
Then by all means, go back to Stalingrad, East Berlin, Myanmar, or North Korea--wherever you feel the most "free".
In other words, welcome to the REAL world: it has always been this way, it's just that the curtain has now been pulled.
US servicemen captured in the middle east expect to be tortured and then summarily executed. It's astounding that people waste so much time bemoaning the fact that a few terrorists are getting bitched slapped and forced to listen to loud Britney Spears songs. Save your sympathy for those that actually deserve it.
It's news because it reminds individuals that under the regimes that rule over them, "rule of law" does not exist. It's news because it reminds individuals that their alleged government representatives operate above the law.
Save your sympathy for those that actually deserve it.
Like children at weddings?
such as vbulletin, phpb etc is not simply just "taking a poorly protected mySQL database on some poor slob's website."
hopefully you never be put in a position of power, which you couldn't care less if you abused it
Kind of the point of TFA: It isn't just the West!
Only the West tried to position itself via the UN, conventions covering conflicts, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords to respect many legally listed human rights.
Many other countries under princes, juntas, communism, faiths just admit they need 'experts' and 'time' to bring their staff up to an very low international standard.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
its the USA's fault.
just like that parking ticket i received in germany last week
Thank of it as locals given clearances and tech way beyond the very limited budgets of their mid level colleagues by the US and UK.
At a top level they get to go to the US and UK, they are supported in their expensive regional tech upgrades and their own continuing tech education.
The data flows one way - back to the USA/UK and their select friends but local EU staff in select nations have been well cared for over ~50 years.
EU secret services now face the reality of groups of individuals with top EU security clearance that are more dedicated to the UK/US than their own elected officials or their legal system.
Databases, court computers, law enforcement, political telco tech is all signed off as been nationally 'secure' by trusted local EU staff when they know full well its all linked to a growing list of other countries (and ex staff).
EU political leaders are slowly understanding the secure phone they where given is junk, trade negotiations where always 'lost' by their own trusted staff, their nations expensive mil/science and secure crypto efforts where given to a list of other countries for 'free' over decades.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re abuse power?... Nobody really knows what any staff do when the exit the gov.
Do they take codes, methods, skills with them and work in the same way?
What gov, company or other person do they end up working for in the private sector?
"Corporate and police spying on activists undermines democracy"
http://www.bath.ac.uk/ipr/our-publications/policy-briefs/policy-brief-corporate-and-police-spying-on-activists.html
"The corporate security agencies and private spies involved in collecting and analysing activist intelligence - and in the subsequent (covert) actions - tend to see their background in the police or the secret service as a selling point and do not hesitate to use connections with former colleagues or friends."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
EU political leaders are slowly understanding the secure phone they where given is junk, trade negotiations where always 'lost' by their own trusted staff, their nations expensive mil/science and secure crypto efforts where given to a list of other countries for 'free' over decades.
It actually doesn't matter what the EU political leaders understand, but the big change is that they have to find a new way to sell the bullshit ideas that they represent to the public now that the public recognizes said ideas as bullshit.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
The thing that makes the OP seem like a dick is that only the US push the believe that they're the greatest and the most freedom loving.
Knowledge != intellect.
Agreed. But you'd have to be unintelligent to not have figured out that something like this was happening a long time ago.
Do they take codes, methods, skills with them and work in the same way?
It appears possible that they do. How do we know that Snowden isn't doing exactly that.
Was that your point? I didn't really pick up what you were putting down.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
My dictionary lists both 'fora' and 'forums' as plurals.
Personally, I prefer 'forums' because I'm sick of the Anglo Saxon love affair with Latin/German/anything else plurals. It makes more sense to stop being obsessed with how to pluralise things, and just whack an 's' or 'es' on the end.
What is far more important is why and not just that they are doing. It is all smelling like existing dominant political parties and using political appointees infesting security organisations to subvert democratic principles to lock in their power and deny access to other political groups. This seems to be a growing global problem resulting from the loss of influence of the idiot box and it's ability to filter out content with insufficient capital access.
It seems to be about the evil internet and the rich and greedy being unable to censor it dollars and now they are resorting to political appointees and total subversion of intelligence organisations.
The rich and greedy are falling into the age old trap, the more you empower security organisations, the more likely the heads of those organisations are to 'KILL' those that empowered them to ensure they could not take away that power. Those organisations don't just spy, they kill, the rich and greedy via their pet politicians are fooling around with some truly dangerous toys and they will turn around and attack their masters in order to become the masters.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
The people that talked about it were lumped in with the tinfoil hat mob and the newspapers were not allowed to print much about it. Any serious discussion was labelled as a "conspiracy theory" then later as "Xfiles shit". People were ridiculed for referring to what agencies were up to in Central America, things that are now in mainstream history. People thought "if it's real it will be in the Washington Post", and when it wasn't they thought it must be bullshit.
So "common knowledge" to a lot of people was discounted as "something I heard once from a nut". That's why people are surprised and why some people are going overboard with the 9/11 truther bullshit because they think that if one thing they had dismissed as a conspiracy theory is true why not the lot?
I believe the Gaurdian has the lot but is spreading it out for both practical (so much of it) and circulation (milk it for all they can to sell more papers) reasons. So I think you are attacking the wrong messenger. :)
I'd really hate to deliver bills or bad news to you
My main issue with the Dutch publishing things in English is that it is typically of higher quality than my own [American] English.
Just that the 'abuse power' aspect has been noted in the EU over the past years. All that GCHQ/NSA encryption and hardware skill set has passed into a few EU tech staff hands too.
A few times it seems to make the press or is reflected back in the wider EU legal system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SISMI-Telecom_scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004–05
As for Snowden all the docs are in the hands of the press for the 'press' to sort, publish, keep, hold.. as they wish over time.
http://cryptome.org/2013/11/snowden-tally.htm the amount of data published so far and on what topics.
http://cryptome.org/2013/11/snowden-related-targets.htm
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I see you've focused more on the speculations and misunderstandings. With a little sprinking of batshit crazy. Well done..! ;)
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
For a change, I know that there are like minded people here :)
Felt rather alone for a while.
All language is convention, that's why and how it works.
The Dutch normally speak Dutch, because, well, it's their native tongue. Dutch itself is pretty close to German, but neither are world-popular language. As such, most people in the Netherlands speak English as well, because they're a hub of business. Publishing this in English ensures it's widely readable to the rest of the world.
Is American "World English"? The rest of the world puts in the missing letters omitted from words, such as neighbour, colour, etc.
The rest of the world says I will take some ideas "from" xyz and Americans say "will take ideas "off of" xyz.
It would take tomes to list the differences in language usage, so much so that in my view, "American" is a distinct language.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftgAG3Vnif8 @0:18