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Snowden Document Says Dutch Secret Service Hacks Internet Forums
vikingpower writes "In the ever-longer wake of the NSA scandal, much-respected Dutch newspaper NRC today reveals, in English, as mandated by the gravity of the occasion, that the Dutch secret service, the AIVD, hacks internet forums. And yes, that is gross misconduct against Dutch law. The service, whose headquarters are in Zoetermeer, did not yet comment upon the divulgence of the document from Edward Snowden's collection. Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry."
People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch
Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service spends at least part of its time spying on its own citizens. If this is news to you, then you will surely be traumatized when you find out that every country tortures people during wars and most torture a few during times of peace. Who do you think Lady GaGa sells most of her recordings to?
Last sentence of the TFA:
Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry
Are the politicians really incensed ?
Aww ...
Please don't disappoint me.
Please don't tell me that the Dutch politicians are all angels !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The Dutch normally speak Dutch, because, well, it's their native tongue. Dutch itself is pretty close to German, but neither are world-popular language. As such, most people in the Netherlands speak English as well, because they're a hub of business. Publishing this in English ensures it's widely readable to the rest of the world.
Just because so many governments do it, it doesn't make it any more right. Quite the contrary. This revelation only removes "the Moral High Ground" from another nation's people.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
It might not be news, but it is still stuff that matters!
I want the world I live in to be a good place, not a place where, as you put it, people are tortured and spied upon. I want to be able to sleep at night, knowing that my government works for basic human rights, including the right to privacy and the right to not be tortured in some prison camp!
The more the wrongdoings of the governments of the west are exposed, the easier it is to stand up against them using non-violent means like voting and demonstrating. So, don't come here and tell me that it isn't in the category news and/or stuff that matters. I for one don't accept the world I live in, and I want to change it for the better.
Do not worry, there is a dutch version as well: http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/11/30/aivd-hackt-internetfora-tegen-wet-in/
Sick of this "Everyone does it!".
Child trafficking is rampant.
So it's OK if I do it?
The real question is, of course, if Slashdot is using mySQL as well.
(Don't bother: if you did not read the article, you will not understand the comment)
The real question is: how did the NSA know that the Dutch secret service was doing this?
Either the NSA is spying on the spies, or they're sharing data.
The real question is: how did the NSA know that the Dutch secret service was doing this?
They were paying them to do it?
No left turn unstoned.
but [German is not] a world-popular language.
Yet.
Send in the panzers!!!!
You thought all those comments about grammar-nazis were just jokes, eh?
Today your diction... tomorrow the world!
The AIVD did comment, even before the NRC published the article: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3033/interception/ (Dutch)
And after the article was published: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3034/reactie-nrc/ (Dutch)
According to them, this is allowed by the current law. However, a lot of parties in parliament and expers don't agree with this assesment and are starting actions to disallow this kind of investigation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc if you want to learn a bit about Dutch and The Netherlands.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Reality is vomit-inducing. It's not his fault.
- post (damn Slashdot constraints on the length of the subject)
It looks like the scandal in The Netherlands about the NSA from what is revealed by Snowden, is mainly the *lack* of anything scandalous at all. There was a four-page article in a leading newspaper the other week about it, and the most it could claim was that we were infiltrated from 1947 until 1968 and that, every now and then, they might take a poorly protected mySQL database on some poor slob's website.
I don't mean to sound like those other 'security experts' who feign fatigue and familiarity with NSA's practices, but this one mainly stood out by its complete and utter boringness, I tell you.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Eh.. because 'friendly' spying agencies are well-known for the way in which they exchange this kind of information?
/ Seriously.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
I'm a Dutch, living abroad.
What I can say is that the situation has deteriorated over the past decade. Mostly thanks to kowtowing to the US. Nowadays everyone has to carry ID all the time; that's since just over a decade (and the rule was implemented remarkably silently). You have to give fingerprints for your passport, officially to make it more secure (but does it? Last summer I didn't see fingerprint scanners at the border, for example).
Overall I think the Dutch do not fear their government (not like in more totalitarian states like the US, where everyone seems to fear their government), at least I don't exactly fear the government. It is chosen democratically, high degree of freedom of expression, and a free and strong press takes care of providing a proper counterbalance.
The police in general do not abuse their power. Though over the past ten years there are more and more laws that give the police opportunities to abuse power, like the right to conduct random searches of people and vehicles. Police for example can at any time without giving a reason cordon off a street and search anyone that happens to be in that area.
This AIVD thing is different, though. I don't consider AIVD to be government, they're more like police or judiciary: paid for but independent of the government. They have a mandate, to collect intelligence, and there are laws regulating what they can and can not do. Governments of all countries do this, it's normal part of police work too.
What happened here appears to be outside that mandate (it should be, imho, but I don't know what the law says or what exactly happened). If they want info from a forum, they can just register as user (may need some undercover work, whatever), and read all posts on that forum - like any user can. It's not OK to hack into a server, and download complete databases, that's going too far. In case of a known criminal link, it's defensible, but in this case there seems to be no such suspicion.
The point is that a lot of people weren't aware of the extent or scale of it
Most people didn't know about this at all. Unsurprisingly, most people are also highly unintelligent.
I am the original poster. Snowden never alleged that this is against Dutch law. The newspaper that published this ( in the very early morning hours, btw, they did not wait for daybreak and people getting out of bed ) alleges it. So do I. I read the law that governs the AIVD's activities. This is clearly outside of the framework set by that law: "... and [ is allowed ] to infiltrate organizations which endanger national or public security...". Now, an internet forum is not an "organization which endangers national or public security", unless you live in Iran, North Korea or China.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
I am not my government.
I do not want this.
Therefore I can be outraged at YOUR government's villainy just fine, thank you.
Reminds me of the scene in Iron Sky when the President asks "OK, anybody who doesn't have an armed space station raise their hand."
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
sorry "gross misconduct against Dutch law" doesn't even make legal sense can you quote the dutch RIPA law which says that what they did is not allowed?
some of the users might be which is presumably the justification - its the same when you tap the phones ATT isn't the target one or more of the users of the service is
There seems to be many smart Dutch people in the open source world. To throw a couple of names, Bram Moolenaar, who is the Vim author, and...uhh...Andrew Tanenbaum...
Yes, let's accept despicable behaviour to make ourselves look jaded and cool on the internet. That is a great solution to all problems!
Whether it`s Dutch, German or English, it should be fora... not forums.
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
Ot should that be "whose client they are".
Who gives.
While certain diplomatic and economic relations are under strain and protests go on all over, it's important to note that none of the surveillance and other civil rights and outright illegal activity has slowed or stopped at all. In some ways it seems to have increased.
Demanding that these activities cease is action #1.
Whether it`s Dutch, German or English, it should be fora... not forums.
In the Dutch version, it is!
At least they don't hard code their !@#$%%# subtitles before the upload their rips. Even they're not that discourteous.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I got modded into flamebait (I guess I'll simply have to stop commenting on Snowden leaks), but you provided a good response. Thank you for the explanation.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Actually, both are equally correct in Dutch.
And on the Eighth Day, Man created God.
I've also personally witnessed that the Dutch tend so speak a much, much better English than the rest of Europe. I'm saying this as a French, who is generally a people who don't speak other languages very well. I believe this is because in the Netherlands almost no English program is dubbed, so people develop a good skill for the language. Since I travel across all of Europe, I've noted that countries that usually dub the English program (Germany, France, Spain, Italy) tend to have a lower English level than the countries who don't (Portugal, Netherlands, Nordics, ...).
I'm all for preserving languages with a strong literary background (I'm mostly familiar with France's, obviously, but I do believe it's known worldwide thanks to people like Victor Hugo, Balzac or other great authors), but when it makes those people basically speak only their native tongue it's a little sad.
A civil war between those with Facebook accounts and those without? I'm in, even if we're outnumbered.
The fingerprints are likely stored for verification purposes and might be sent out to requesting authorities across the world to combat passport forgery.
That doesn't improve the situation in the least. Violating people's privacy for security purposes is not acceptable.
I agree and as I am English (and thus speak only one language) I should be able to judge their aptitude. In fact, the Dutch seem to be amazingly good with languages and often their English is better than native speakers.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Only paid shills have called him a traitor.
Even the dumb people that think government is their friend have enough sense to know that Snowden's actions could not, in any stretch of the imagination, be considered traitorous. Of course, this doesn't stop certain news groups from trying to change the definition of words like "treason" to mean "anything that I don't personally agree with" in attempt to mislead the populace.
What's not to rike?
When I was in the Peace Corps (American) in Africa, I met several Dutch Peace Corps volunteers. They were all multilingual and their English was almost perfect. They told me that when you come from a small country surrounded larger countries that speak other languages, you learn their languages. They were all great people. The world could use more people like the Dutch.
Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
In fact, it's Britney Spears who is used in this capacity: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/29/britney-spears-navy-scare-somali-pirates
soylentnews.org
It's a fact that the Dutch language sits somewhere between English and German, all three have a common Germanic ancestor.
Please ignore the idiots that keep repeating something that happened well before their time.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
And keep repeating the unasked for message.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
ROR
It's a known fact they sometimes (regularly?) get donations from their US cousins to set up projects that are of mutual interest.
So far I see no problems, but Dutch privacy law is an entirely different beast to US privacy law (or the lack thereof), we do have guarantees re. privacy and consider it important to protect them.
What I do find of interest is the AMS-IX or Amsterdam Internet Exchange, it would be a great point for tapping...
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
And I can largely subscribe to the points you are making.
We don't have the 'fear' or hatred of our government you sometimes read about on
So in this particular case we will see some interesting debates between the executive and the elected legislature.
I just read a statement by the responsible minister Plasterk who says he feels the AIVD (secret service) is working within the law.
He refuses to go into detail but admits the AIVD is targeting fora where people are called upon to take part in violence and fora with violent video's. He states the authority (CTIVD) tasked with supervision of the secret services did not see reasons to correct the activities of the services.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
I just read a statement by the responsible minister Plasterk who says he feels the AIVD (secret service) is working within the law.
He refuses to go into detail but admits the AIVD is targeting fora where people are called upon to take part in violence and fora with violent video's. He states the authority (CTIVD) tasked with supervision of the secret services did not see reasons to correct the activities of the services.
I must agree with him (and against you) that some fora can pose a thread to our national and the international security in a way that legalises action by the secret services.
Besides, by their design internet fora are not limited to a single country.
Unless you live in Iran, North Korea or China.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Now, an internet forum is not an "organization which endangers national or public security"
Actually, the legal justification for this is that the internet forum is the ONLY way in which these people meet, exchange ideas, put together timetables, and organize. Which means that the forum members are an organization and the forum is the embodiment of that organization.
While one can (and lots of people will!) certainly argue the point, it's not without merit. I don't condone *anything* the AIVD does, including this, because their main function is to protect the status quo and that only coincidentally happens to also protect some lives here and there, but to say they're outside the law is going a bit too fast. The law that pertains to this subject is very likely outdated and should be reviewed.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Only the West tried to position itself via the UN, conventions covering conflicts, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords to respect many legally listed human rights.
Many other countries under princes, juntas, communism, faiths just admit they need 'experts' and 'time' to bring their staff up to an very low international standard.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Thank of it as locals given clearances and tech way beyond the very limited budgets of their mid level colleagues by the US and UK.
At a top level they get to go to the US and UK, they are supported in their expensive regional tech upgrades and their own continuing tech education.
The data flows one way - back to the USA/UK and their select friends but local EU staff in select nations have been well cared for over ~50 years.
EU secret services now face the reality of groups of individuals with top EU security clearance that are more dedicated to the UK/US than their own elected officials or their legal system.
Databases, court computers, law enforcement, political telco tech is all signed off as been nationally 'secure' by trusted local EU staff when they know full well its all linked to a growing list of other countries (and ex staff).
EU political leaders are slowly understanding the secure phone they where given is junk, trade negotiations where always 'lost' by their own trusted staff, their nations expensive mil/science and secure crypto efforts where given to a list of other countries for 'free' over decades.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re abuse power?... Nobody really knows what any staff do when the exit the gov.
Do they take codes, methods, skills with them and work in the same way?
What gov, company or other person do they end up working for in the private sector?
"Corporate and police spying on activists undermines democracy"
http://www.bath.ac.uk/ipr/our-publications/policy-briefs/policy-brief-corporate-and-police-spying-on-activists.html
"The corporate security agencies and private spies involved in collecting and analysing activist intelligence - and in the subsequent (covert) actions - tend to see their background in the police or the secret service as a selling point and do not hesitate to use connections with former colleagues or friends."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
EU political leaders are slowly understanding the secure phone they where given is junk, trade negotiations where always 'lost' by their own trusted staff, their nations expensive mil/science and secure crypto efforts where given to a list of other countries for 'free' over decades.
It actually doesn't matter what the EU political leaders understand, but the big change is that they have to find a new way to sell the bullshit ideas that they represent to the public now that the public recognizes said ideas as bullshit.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
Agreed. But you'd have to be unintelligent to not have figured out that something like this was happening a long time ago.
Do they take codes, methods, skills with them and work in the same way?
It appears possible that they do. How do we know that Snowden isn't doing exactly that.
Was that your point? I didn't really pick up what you were putting down.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
What is far more important is why and not just that they are doing. It is all smelling like existing dominant political parties and using political appointees infesting security organisations to subvert democratic principles to lock in their power and deny access to other political groups. This seems to be a growing global problem resulting from the loss of influence of the idiot box and it's ability to filter out content with insufficient capital access.
It seems to be about the evil internet and the rich and greedy being unable to censor it dollars and now they are resorting to political appointees and total subversion of intelligence organisations.
The rich and greedy are falling into the age old trap, the more you empower security organisations, the more likely the heads of those organisations are to 'KILL' those that empowered them to ensure they could not take away that power. Those organisations don't just spy, they kill, the rich and greedy via their pet politicians are fooling around with some truly dangerous toys and they will turn around and attack their masters in order to become the masters.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
The people that talked about it were lumped in with the tinfoil hat mob and the newspapers were not allowed to print much about it. Any serious discussion was labelled as a "conspiracy theory" then later as "Xfiles shit". People were ridiculed for referring to what agencies were up to in Central America, things that are now in mainstream history. People thought "if it's real it will be in the Washington Post", and when it wasn't they thought it must be bullshit.
So "common knowledge" to a lot of people was discounted as "something I heard once from a nut". That's why people are surprised and why some people are going overboard with the 9/11 truther bullshit because they think that if one thing they had dismissed as a conspiracy theory is true why not the lot?
I believe the Gaurdian has the lot but is spreading it out for both practical (so much of it) and circulation (milk it for all they can to sell more papers) reasons. So I think you are attacking the wrong messenger. :)
I'd really hate to deliver bills or bad news to you
Just that the 'abuse power' aspect has been noted in the EU over the past years. All that GCHQ/NSA encryption and hardware skill set has passed into a few EU tech staff hands too.
A few times it seems to make the press or is reflected back in the wider EU legal system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SISMI-Telecom_scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004–05
As for Snowden all the docs are in the hands of the press for the 'press' to sort, publish, keep, hold.. as they wish over time.
http://cryptome.org/2013/11/snowden-tally.htm the amount of data published so far and on what topics.
http://cryptome.org/2013/11/snowden-related-targets.htm
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I see you've focused more on the speculations and misunderstandings. With a little sprinking of batshit crazy. Well done..! ;)
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Well by that argument you should not tap any phones what so ever
The problem is precisely that this absurd interpretation of the words "criminal organisation" is used with regards to internet forums. Apparently, the fact that some people on forums might be dangerous terrorists (of the Muslim persuasion, according to the AIVD, because as we know extreme right movements never bomb anything...) means that the whole forum can be considered a criminal organisation and makes it okay to siphon up all user data, including that of innocent users.
The other problem is that the law is not adapted well to modern times. Now, the 'solution' the organisation supervising the MIVD and AIVD is advocating is changing the law to retroactively allow the previously described behaviour. This is all very strange, because this supervising organisation is supposed to be independent from both security services and is also meant to keep both in check with the law.
Ronald Plasterk, who is responsible for both the AIVD, the MIVD, and the supervising organisation, is claiming that all is according to the law (when it is not). So now various MPs are calling for a parliamentary investigation into the use of illegal investigation methods by the secret services and he is even being criticised by his own party members. Hopefully this will happen.
The lackluster reaction by Mark Rutte (the prime minister) and several other people in power is quite worrying though...they just don't seem to care.
All language is convention, that's why and how it works.
The Dutch normally speak Dutch, because, well, it's their native tongue. Dutch itself is pretty close to German, but neither are world-popular language. As such, most people in the Netherlands speak English as well, because they're a hub of business. Publishing this in English ensures it's widely readable to the rest of the world.
Is American "World English"? The rest of the world puts in the missing letters omitted from words, such as neighbour, colour, etc.
The rest of the world says I will take some ideas "from" xyz and Americans say "will take ideas "off of" xyz.
It would take tomes to list the differences in language usage, so much so that in my view, "American" is a distinct language.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftgAG3Vnif8 @0:18