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Program to Use Russian Nukes for US Electricity Comes to an End

gbrumfiel writes "For the past two decades, about 10 percent of all the electricity consumed in the United States has come from Russian nuclear warheads. Under a program called Megatons to Megawatts, Russian highly-enriched uranium was pulled from old bombs and made into fuel for nuclear reactors. NPR News reports that the program concludes today when the last shipment arrives at a U.S. storage facility. In all nearly 500 tons of uranium was recycled, enough for roughly 20,000 warheads."

148 comments

  1. Re:And why ... by binarylarry · · Score: 0, Troll

    The US is a leader because we don't just talk big on the internet and rave into video cameras.

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  2. Primary goal was disposal, not energy by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Our proven uranium reserves would last us over 200 years at current consumption; Well beyond the life expectancy of any of our reactors. The only reason for this program was to provide a failing country with a cheap way of disposing of highly hazardous materials without losing face. It is the proverbial "turning a negative into a positive". It will have zero effect on our energy costs or programs.

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    1. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our proven uranium reserves would last us over 200 years at current consumption; Well beyond the life expectancy of any of our reactors. The only reason for this program was to provide a failing country with a cheap way of disposing of highly hazardous materials without losing face. It is the proverbial "turning a negative into a positive". It will have zero effect on our energy costs or programs.

      Zero effect, eh?

      An oil sheik farts in the wrong direction and gas prices go up by 10 cents a gallon, creating hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue instantly.

      What in the FUCK makes you think the powers-that-be won't take this non-story and turn it into the next US energy crisis to justify a 20% increase in costs?

      Sorry for being so harsh, but your last statement there pegged my bullshit meter.

    2. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by QuantumPion · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Our proven uranium reserves would last us over 200 years at current consumption; Well beyond the life expectancy of any of our reactors. The only reason for this program was to provide a failing country with a cheap way of disposing of highly hazardous materials without losing face. It is the proverbial "turning a negative into a positive". It will have zero effect on our energy costs or programs.

      Zero effect, eh?

      An oil sheik farts in the wrong direction and gas prices go up by 10 cents a gallon, creating hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue instantly.

      What in the FUCK makes you think the powers-that-be won't take this non-story and turn it into the next US energy crisis to justify a 20% increase in costs?

      Sorry for being so harsh, but your last statement there pegged my bullshit meter.

      The small increase in nuclear fuel price due to the ending of this program is insignificant. Fuel price is only a small cost of nuclear power, and enrichment cost only a fraction of that. The real problem for nuclear power is the bottoming out of energy prices due to the huge oversupply of natural gas from fracking. The latter being responsible for the closing of two power plants this year.

    3. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by QuantumPion · · Score: 4, Informative

      Our proven uranium reserves would last us over 200 years at current consumption;

      If we built fast reactors, we would have enough fuel, in the form of depleted uranium sitting around idle in barrels at enrichment plants, to supply the entire planet's energy for about 1000 years.

    4. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like your post, but it propagates a myth due to severe omission. I'd like to correct it.

      The big problem is, you're off by a factor of 100.

      Our current fuel cycle is once-through. Thus, new fuel enters the reactor at 100% capacity, and when "spent" leaves the reactor at around 98% capacity.

      "Known reserves" is also problematic, as it means those reserves that we know about and can recover for the same price as the market currently prices Uranium at. In a multi-billion dollar plant, a doubling of the cost of fuel does not translate into a dollar more per year worth of overall cost increase.

      I will restate your phrase for accuracy - "Our proven reserves at current economic recovery rates, with appropriate fuel re-use, will last us over 10,000 years."
      An addendum - "Allowing for a reasonable increase in the cost of fuel, and including known reserves of Thorium, we have nuclear fuel for fission reactors for 100,000 years. This assumes healthy annual growth in Humanity's overall energy consumption levels."

      You are correct on your point that Russian warhead fuel is a two birds with one stone proposition - it is a cheap source of ready-to-use fuel, and it helps reduce the number of old warheads lying around in old soviet bunkers.

    5. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I like your post, but it propagates a myth due to severe omission. I'd like to correct it. The big problem is, you're off by a factor of 100.

      False. "Uranium reserves available at up to $100 per pound of U3O8 represented approximately 23 years worth of demand, while uranium reserves at up to $50 per pound of U3O8 represented about 10 years worth of demand. Domestic U.S. uranium production, however, supplies only about 10 percent, on average, of U.S. requirements for nuclear fuel"
      Source. Domestic US production gives us 23 years of demand at 100% capacity. It is currently at 10% capacity. Conclusion: About 230 years.

      A second estimate looking at global supply had this to say: "Thus the world's present measured resources of uranium (5.3 Mt) in the cost category around present spot prices and used only in conventional reactors, are enough to last for about 80 years. This represents a higher level of assured resources than is normal for most minerals. Further exploration and higher prices will certainly, on the basis of present geological knowledge, yield further resources as present ones are used up." It goes on to state "This is in fact suggested in the IAEA-NEA figures if those covering estimates of all conventional resources (U as main product or major by-product) are considered - another 7.6 million tonnes (beyond the 5.3 Mt known economic resources), which takes us to 190 years' supply at today's rate of consumption."

      200 years is an accurate assessment given available data. Your assessment is based on non-existant technology and substantial change in current industry practices. Mine is based on today's technology, and no change.

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    6. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      We paid good money for that Uranium and IIRC the Russians got a bunch of jobs mixing the highly refined into low grade at the 2% rate that reactors use. They didn't need it, and it was a security risk laying around. It was a win-win for both nations.

      Modern weapons don't use Uranium anyway because you need so much more of it versus a plutonium trigger on an H-Bomb. IIRC the US phase uranium based weapons out decades ago and used up the excess uranium in exactly the same way we're using the Russian uranium. The Russians also didn't' ship it all out, they used a bunch of it for their own reactors as well.

      But don't play this out as a loss for either nation, there was nothing for the Russian to lose face over because the material isn't part of their nuclear deterrent any more than uranium weapons are in the US. It was a marketable commodity as generator fuel and essentially worthless otherwise. The US was the only nation willing to buy it because of the protections other nations put on their internal refinement programs. The Russians didn't want to idle the refinement factories that supply Uranium to the world and the US had shut down their refinement capacity decades ago.

      Using up the US and Russian weapons grade Uranium in US reactors delayed a restarting of US uranium production by decades. In fact after this last shipment is used up the US Uranium enrichment facilities will need to rebuild/restart to continue fueling the reactors.

    7. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by ewieling · · Score: 1

      bottoming out of energy prices due to the huge oversupply of natural gas from fracking.

      According to this site the average price/kwh has been steadily increasing, doesn't look like it accounts for inflation though. http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?series_id=APU000072610&data_tool=XGtable

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    8. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by macpacheco · · Score: 1

      The problem is fast reactors are un economical.
      We need breeder thermal reactors, that's really though to do !
      The only known design that might do that trick is Thorium / U-233 based.

    9. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      If we built fast reactors, we would have enough fuel, in the form of depleted uranium sitting around idle in barrels at enrichment plants, to supply the entire planet's energy for about 1000 years.

      Current reactor designs, given current geologically-proven reserves and what has already been refined and available in world markets, is about 200 years. The definition of proveable is that someone's already done it.

      Fast reactors aren't economical right now. Maybe in two hundred years, assuming no new sources of uranium are discovered, we'll need to revisit it. It's economically absurd right now to suggest switching over. The 200 years estimate is based on today's technology, with today's known quantity, in today's economy. Yes, there are technologies, like fast reactors, that can re-use the spent fuel -- but until we're out of enriched uranium, there's simply no need to.

      This is a question for our great great grand children to answer, not us. We should be more focused on getting off fossil fuels before our problems are less about an energy crisis than about having a habitable planet to live on. We'll have fuel for nuclear reactors for as long as the planet remains habitable. Habitability is in doubt because we're more concerned with short term gain than long-term stability. I don't want our children to have to wonder where their next meal will come from -- you can eat the trees, grass, birds, wild life, plants... but you can't eat money.

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    10. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      According to this site the average price/kwh has been steadily increasing, doesn't look like it accounts for inflation though.

      Yeah, but the OP was right: This isn't a fuel problem. In truth, it's a NIMBY problem. Nobody wants a power plant built near them, so no new plants are being built. The net result is demand is rising, but supply isn't. That's why the price is going up; It's not because the cost of the inputs have changed. It doesn't matter whether the plants are natural gas, nuclear, coal, solar, or wind... if you can't build one to begin with.

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      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    11. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

      The issue is not the average energy price across the country. The problem is local, where natural gas is produced in such abundance but cannot be stored or transported, they practically give it away, which nuclear (nor coal or any other generation method aside from hydro) can compete with.

    12. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      security risk laying around

      And, to emphasize this point, the warheads were literally, no shit, sitting in unguarded abandoned buildings at the time. The breakup of the Soviet Union meant they couldn't afford soldiers to guard all of their nuclear fucking bombs. This program might have been the best few billion dollars the US ever spent.

    13. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the time Nuclear Power Plants get build it will declare bankruptcy by Solar energy!

    14. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 2

      Different story here in Australia. We've had massive investment in energy infrastructure but the expected demand never happened. Energy use has actually reduced overall, meaning all that expenditure now has to be spread across less (than expected) customers. The result is higher per unit prices, effectively creating a death spiral scenario. The rise in prices means people are cutting back in usage even more, meaning suppliers have to keep raising prices to cover costs. It's a positive feedback loop, so far prices are up 70% in the last 5 years all because energy suppliers threw a lot of money into supply but demand did not grow as expected.

    15. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Solandri · · Score: 1

      You're missing AC's point. Current nuclear fission tech only releases about 2% of the energy available in the uranium. We call it "waste" when it still contains 98% of the energy it could potentially provide. The primary reason for this is non-proliferation. Extracting most of the remaining energy requires reprocessing - a byproduct of which is weapons-grade plutonium. So rather than deal with making sure that plutonium doesn't fall into the wrong hands, we simply choose not to reprocess (at least the U.S. does not, outside of a couple military reactors). That is the only reason the technology is non-existent. It's not a technical or a financial hurdle, it's purely political.

      So if you assume the current 2% efficiency of nuclear fuel use, then yes proven uranium reserves are about 200 years worth. OTOH if you assume we all learn to get along and get past the reprocessing taboo, and use the full uranium fuel cycle, then AC is correct that proven uranium reserves are closer to 10,000 years worth.

    16. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strictly speaking it is turning a negative into an anti-negative plus a photon

    17. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our proven uranium reserves would last us over 200 years at current consumption;

      If we built fast reactors, we would have enough fuel, in the form of depleted uranium sitting around idle in barrels at enrichment plants, to supply the entire planet's energy for about 1000 years.

      Fast, or breeder, reactors do not produce DU. Rather, they turn DU into the deadly, easily rendered bomb source called Plutonium. Old news, I know, but the wishful thinking in the pro nuclear camp is almost laughable...if it were not for the Fukushima Dai-Ichi's to remind us that you people have NO idea what will happen with your lethal toxins over the lifespan of the poisons you wish to make.
      Face facts, fission will not do, not even as an interim solution, until you have proven, safe PERMANENT disposal and no weapons materials produced at all, in a completely passive safety system that is incapable of failure unless the planet is split by an incoming meteor > 200 miles wide.

    18. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by xtal · · Score: 1

      ..without a single ounce of extra CO2 added.

      People are not rational about nuclear power, and politicians are spineless, so invest in natural gas and oil companies. Burn, baby, burn..

      --
      ..don't panic
    19. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      And if we build fusion reactors, we would not need uranium in first place.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    20. Re:Primary goal was disposal, not energy by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Reprocessing commercial PWR and BWR spent fuel produces a mixture of two isotopes of plutonium, Pu-239 which can be used to make weapons and Pu-240, the presence of which spoils an implosion weapon's functioning by producing lots of heat and radiation since Pu-240's half-life is a lot shorter than Pu-239. Weapons-grade plutonium is produced in specialised non-commercial military breeder reactors which produce a purer for of plutonium with only a tiny amount of Pu-240.

      Proliferation isn't really a problem for reprocessing, the real hurdle to overcome is that it is expensive and complicated to do safely. The upside is that it reuses spent fuel, but at the moment freshly-mined uranium is very cheap so the cost factor predicates against more countries operating a reprocessing facility. One major benefit is that reprocessing concentrates the unwanted isotopes in the fuel (aka "waste") into a much smaller volume which, although much more radioactive per kilogram than unreprocessed spent fuel makes it easier to dispose of in a deep geological burial site or storing it temporarily aboveground.

  3. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, careful with all that straw, man, you're liable to start a fire! There's uranium around, you don't want to see what happens when it overheats.

  4. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    You should leave the Anti-Americanism to the faculty of American universities.

    They're much better at it.

  5. Re:And why ... by gstoddart · · Score: 0, Troll

    The US is a leader because we don't just talk big on the internet and rave into video cameras.

    Yes, apparently you wiretap the internet and install the video cameras.

    Because, you know, that's clearly being the champions of freedom and liberty -- or more accurately, your own at the expense of everyone else's.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  6. Re:And why ... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 2

    And why do we feel the US is more trusted with this than anybody else?

    Because if we wanted to nuke the hell outta someone, we wouldn't need Russian uranium to do it.

    Apparently the irony is lost on Americans.

    I think you're confusing irony with tragedy.

  7. Re:And why ... by SirGarlon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's not a matter of being more trusted. It's a matter of the US going to the trouble to negotiate a deal with Russia to dispose of the unneeded fissionable material. France, UK, Japan, etc. could have done it instead ... if they had tried.

    --
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  8. Re:And why ... by Deadstick · · Score: 2

    Would you prefer the Russians sold their warheads on E-bay?

  9. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    We didn't install the cameras we just accessed the ones you already had set up.

  10. 'cause it has to be posted... by mitcheli · · Score: 1

    All your warheads are belonging to us.

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  11. Re:And why ... by binarylarry · · Score: 1

    Action has that consequence, you fuck up a lot.

    But then you learn from it and move on.

    Mea Culpa.

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    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  12. Re:And why ... by symbolset · · Score: 1

    It was actually a trick. Now we have to pay to be rid of the spent fuel. Pretty smart, the Russians.

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    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  13. Re:And why ... by istartedi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Really? REALLY??? Do you have any idea what was happening in Russia after the USSR fell apart? They were in some serious economic trouble. Securing nuclear assets was of vital importance not just to us, but to them and the entire world. If anything we didn't do enough. I heard there were RTGs left to rust in Siberia. Some of their naval nukes were also mothballed under questionable circumstances.

    I'm the first to admit that the USA's actions aren't always for the best; but not in this case.

    --
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  14. Re:And why ... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    France, UK, Japan, etc. could have done it instead ... if they had tried.

    Guess they were leading from behind.

  15. It sounds like London's logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And that's probably the real reason for the soviet block. Told this way it would seem that a whole country, an the biggest on Earth, with below-zero temperatures most of the year, needed missiles to keep warm.

    Actually I remember reading long time ago (and curiously an African guy agreed) that in Africa the one eating is not the one with the food, but the one with the gun. I suppose you could now say that in Asia the one getting warm is not the one with the energy, but the one with the energy turned into a weapon.

    Anyway Africa and Asia should not complain, it seems that for them Europe is just the Bin for what they don't want. London's logic...

    1. Re:It sounds like London's logic by drainbramage · · Score: 1

      I first thought of the city and could not understand the reference.
      I suspect you are referring to Professor Leslie London and his "Affirmative Action and the invisibility of white privilege," article.
      Google led me to: http://www.uct.ac.za/mondaypaper/archives/?id=6412

      --
      No brain, no pain.
  16. Re:And why ... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Direct heating from the warheads would have been more efficient that making electricity in power plants and then passing it through heaters. Even more so if they didn't leave the thermonuclear component out.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  17. Re:And why ... by rlwhite · · Score: 2

    You mean, we pay to ship it to the Savannah River Site in South Carolina because we never could agree on a permanent storage solution at Yucca Mountain. We won't be completely rid of it for many, many years.

  18. In Soviet Russia by rlwhite · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, nukes use you for power.

  19. Re:And why ... by macpacheco · · Score: 5, Informative

    Specially since this is U-235 (the primary nuclear fuel currently in use on civilian nuclear power stations).
    Using U-235 for nuclear weapons is only common in first generation nuclear programs. You see, enriching uranium is a PITA (separating isotopes), while separating plutonium from anything else is soooo much easier (chemical separation).
    The trick is having a reactor that takes thatplentiful U-238 and hit it with a neutron to make Pu-239 (that nasty plutonium used in bombs). Plutonium isn't naturally occurring.
    If there are still US nuclear weapons that use U-235, those must be the oldest in the inventory.
    So, any association from that Russian nuclear fuel with nuclear bombs is only made by those without any nuclear physics knowledge.

    U-238 is 99,3% of natural uranium. It's the stuff that enrichment removes from the base material (producing depleted uranium).
    A holy grail of peaceful nuclear is breeding Pu-239 from U-238 on the fly inside the reactor and the fission it, but having this happen mixed with all kinds of nasty beta emitters that make using that Pu-239 for nuclear weapons another PITA. Beta radiation is the stuff that really kills (used to kill cancer cells in radiotheraphy), but inside the reactor it's not an issue.

    Not to mention that everybody that has significant stockpiles of Pu-239 want to destroy most of it ! Most nuclear reactors can't deal with nuclear fuel with lots of plutonium.

  20. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    your sig is intensive. please calm it down a bit

  21. Re:And why ... by X0563511 · · Score: 2

    Well, sure. For a very, very short amount of time.

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  22. I know a better use for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should have used them to glass the US.

    1. Re:I know a better use for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google is already doing that.

    2. Re:I know a better use for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jealous, are we?

      Those who can, do- those who can't, wish they could nuke those who do....

    3. Re:I know a better use for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bazinga!

  23. Re:And why ... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    The US and Russia "beat swords into plowshares", and the first thing out of anyone's mouth was how evul da US is?

    Incredible.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  24. Re:And why ... by Peristaltic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, apparently you wiretap the internet and install the video cameras.

    Who, specifically, are the two of you referring to when you say "you" and "we"? All Americans? Really?

    Yes sir, no Americans "just talk big" on the internet as they rave into video cameras, and all Americans support "wiretapping the internet" as we giggle our asses off installing the video cameras... and all Irish are drunks, all Brits have bad teeth and all Muslims are terrorists.

    You really put your names on this shit? Both of your posts are sense-free trolls. Give it a rest.

  25. Re:And why ... by JustOK · · Score: 1

    heat swords into glow sticks

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  26. They're doing it wrong by Stele · · Score: 1

    No wonder. A program to do this would never work. This is clearly a hardware problem.

  27. Smart Move by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    So you are recycling russian nukes to build your own nukes! Thats smart ;)

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    1. Re:Smart Move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't pay much attention your high school science class, did you?

      The short version is that no capable nation is still going to use uranium for a nuclear weapon. But, hey, lets totally ignore physics, and the fact that even the US has been downgrading it's nuclear weapon stock, for some completely nonsensical, uninformed ranting.

  28. Re: And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And we are thankful that the faculty at American universities are free to express "anti-American" sentiments -- aren't we?

  29. Re:And why ... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

    U-238 and hit it with a neutron to make Pu-239

    IANANuclear Engineer, but isn't it a proton that's needed for that?

    </pedantic>

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  30. Re:And why ... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not saying all Americans support this, but it's done in your name by your government. Often against the laws of the country where it happens (which apparently are deemed irrelevant by your laws).

    So, like it or not, these are things America is currently doing right now.

    Sadly, my country is one of the Five Eyes, and I need to accept that Canada is doing this as well. I don't like it either, but that doesn't change that it's happening in my name or that I wish it wasn't.

    But when someone says "ZOMG, teh Canajuns are doing teh spying (eh)" -- the best we can say is "yeah, we don't like it either".

    Unfortunately, when our politicians act like douchebags, it reflects on us all. And, sadly, I suspect in many countries where this is occurring those of us who disagree with it are vastly outnumbered by the ones who think that it's OK.

    But if you think that still doesn't create some negative backlash against a country in general, you're fooling yourself. If most of your country believes this is OK and what you should be doing, well, then on balance, the whole country bears the blame for it.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  31. Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 2

    Early enrichment had a pretty low energy return on energy invested because of the large contribution of gaseous diffusion to the process. Enriching up to weapons grade and then diluting back down was also an extra energy draw. I can't count the number of complaints I've heard about solar energy payback time from nuke nuts on slashdot, yet all this time its been horrible to non-existent for US nukes. Mostly we've had imported soviet hydro and coal power with this program.

    1. Re:Low EROEI by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I can't count the number of complaints I've heard about solar energy payback time from nuke nuts on slashdot, yet all this time its been horrible to non-existent for US nukes.

      You seem to be unaware that commercial fuel is only moderately enriched, and the enrichment process is done with (very energy efficient) centrifuges. (Actually, I'm being kind here, your handle, homepage, journal, and posting history all make your bias abundantly clear.)

    2. Re:Low EROEI by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      What you are missing here is that what is happening is turning crap no one really wants into something that is useful which has a much higher EROEI than turning raw materials into that same end product. The same could be said about early efforts in refining aluminum (there is a reason that the Washington Monument is capped with an aluminum point) but I still toss all my aluminum cans into the recycling bin.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    3. Re:Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      How much of that fuel was done with centrifuges? The Soviets had it sooner, but these are also their older weapons. Nope, this was a battery for conventional power, not an energy gain.

    4. Re:Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      We paid quite a bit for it, partly because there were other people who did want it.

    5. Re:Low EROEI by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      In what terms do you measure the energy efficiency of a centrifuge?
      You clearly have no clue ...
      Perhaps they use not much energy in relation to the energy provided by the fuel ...
      But that is not called efficiency!

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Low EROEI by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Fine, but I didn't hear anyone suggesting that starting another cold war and then ending it, in order to harvest the leftover nuclear material, ought to be on the table in terms of possible future energy strategies.

      This was a one time deal that only made sense given the outrageous history of the 20:th century.

    7. Re:Low EROEI by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      The sound you heard was my point whooshing over your head. Again, unsurprising considering your bias, and what I must now conclude is deliberate ignorance on your part.

      Had you bothered to read what I quoted, you'd note I was addressing your comment on US nukes.

    8. Re:Low EROEI by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      No, the one lacking a clue is you.

      You measure the efficiency of a centrifuge by measuring the energy consumed per SWU. This feeds into determining the EROEI that is the subject of grandparent's (clueless and disconnected from reality) complaint.

    9. Re:Low EROEI by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      pffft, thank you that you answered ho you measure the efficieny of a centrifuge, I will take your opinion into account for my thesis.
      Best Regards

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Personally, I don't care how efficient the process was or wasn't, I'm just pleased that the uranium delivered (and will continue to deliver for some time) its energy in a controlled fashion via the electrical grid, instead of all at once with a hydrogen jacket around it.

      As far as I'm concerned, this was a "disarming the BOMB" program, any side effects that generated electricity, at any cost, are a bonus.

    11. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Supply and demand works, even (and especially) on the international weapons market.

    12. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I don't know how outrageous the 20th was - look at the wars, plagues and general cocked-uppedness of the 19th, 18th, and 17th. The only reason antiquity doesn't seem as bad is because we've got lousy records of it.

    13. Re:Low EROEI by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      I don't mean to diminish the suffering of anyone in earlier centuries, but the 20:th is special in that was the first century in which one man's decision could potentially destroy most of civilization.

    14. Re:Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      You seem to be completely unaware of what this program did.

    15. Re:Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Except that now we have to deal with the waste. Better to just dilute it back down to natural uranium and not use it at all.

    16. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      one man's decision could potentially destroy most of civilization.

      I hope that isn't as true as Hollywood makes it out to be. Multiple authentication requirements, etc. are hopefully even stronger than they claimed they were _before_ Dr. Strangelove was released.

      Turning back to antiquity, wasn't it Caesar who essentially tanked Rome? Though, "we" (civilization) will be taking the barbarians down hard with us if the nuclear option gets out of control.

    17. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Ah, the classical solution to pollution: dilution.

      The world is a really big place, we'd be better off with a global nuclear waste dump the size of Utah than we are currently with the products of fossil fuel combustion in the atmosphere. Of course, Utah residents would disagree, but if you churned up the unwanted radioactives into cement at a "safe" concentration, whatever that is, started laying a 6' thick layer of the stuff at the center of the biggest non-draining desert in the state, it would be a very long time before anybody outside the state had anything to worry about. You could even pour another 6' thick layer of non-radioactive concrete underneath and on-top. Sounds extravagant, until you look at what's happened to West Virginia in the pursuit of coal.

    18. Re:Low EROEI by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      one man's decision could potentially destroy most of civilization.

      I hope that isn't as true as Hollywood makes it out to be. Multiple authentication requirements, etc. are hopefully even stronger than they claimed they were _before_ Dr. Strangelove was released.

      Turning back to antiquity, wasn't it Caesar who essentially tanked Rome? Though, "we" (civilization) will be taking the barbarians down hard with us if the nuclear option gets out of control.

      No, Caesar changed Rome from a republic to an Empire. You could say he laid the ground works for the imperial Rome that we most often think of.

      The fall of Western Rome was a drawn out process that took at least a couple of centuries, so you can't blame it on any one person. Rome probably fell for reasons not much different from why the Soviet union fell. It was too large an empire and way too reliant on central planning.

    19. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      O.K. - but who was playing his fiddle while Rome burned?

      Obviously, where we are today is never the product of one person's decisions, the current conditions in the U.S.A are in large part thanks to pre-colonial English monarchs and their policies, but often one man is handed the blame or praise for terrible or great things that happened on their watch.

    20. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Sorry, been too many decades since my ancient history classes (can you imagine the early 80s!) - Google informs me that was thinking of Nero.

    21. Re:Low EROEI by tragedy · · Score: 1

      O.K. - but who was playing his fiddle while Rome burned?

      Considering that the fiddle wasn't developed for the greater part of a thousand years after he died, it probably wasn't Nero. He probably wasn't playing his lyre either, since the historical records that aren't crazy conspiracy theories place him out of time when it happened. It is fairly historically certain that he introduced building codes to help prevent that sort of thing from happening again after the fire, however.

    22. Re:Low EROEI by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Not really, my suggestion is to not pollute in the first place. Don't make the waste and there is no need to deal with it. The correct solution to the waste problem is to transmute it into stable isotopes, Implementing this may well bring the ratio of energy returned on energy invested for nuclear energy below one. Overall, one might view nuclear power simply as an overly complex, awkward and dangerous battery technology.

    23. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes, and I suppose we should move Christmas day because of recent historical evidence regarding the date of Jesus of Nazareth's birth?

      History is much more legend than fact - no matter how hard the people who have the facts try to change that.

      Rolling back to the idea that one man can screw things up - 7th grade history classes often credit the Roman Emperors with having total control over the empire, and having mismanaged it into oblivion. Personally, I think this stems from personal fantasies of the 7th grade history teachers imagining they have control of their whole classroom.

    24. Re:Low EROEI by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I'm viewing nuclear power right now, coming in through my window from a big fusion generator located 93 million miles away. Too bad it's non-renewable and destined to flame out, but I think it's good enough for me and my offspring. Ultimately the source of all useful energy on the planet traces back to nuclear power - we just need to be smart about how we use it.

  32. In Post Soviet Russia by acid_andy · · Score: 1

    Now Russia can do the same with all America's nukes! They won't mind!

    --
    Your ad here.
  33. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently the irony is lost on Americans.

    How exactly is the mindset of "the only people we trust with nukes is ourselves" ironic? Moronic perhaps, but hardly ironic.

  34. Swords and Plowshares by coolmoose25 · · Score: 1

    ...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares... That's what $14 Billion can buy.

    --
    Brawndo: It's what plants crave!
    1. Re:Swords and Plowshares by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      ...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares... That's what $14 Billion can buy.

      Note that the estimated cost of a single nuclear attack by terrorists is between $250 billion and $1 trillion.

      So never mind the electricity by-product; if this program kept nuclear weapons out of the wrong hands, then it was well worth it for that reason alone.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  35. US Hegemony by hawkeey · · Score: 2

    While some people complain about the geopolitical status of the United States, it has to remembered that the US emerged from isolationism outside the Western hemisphere only after the second World War. Sure there was some involvement after the Spanish-American war and the first World War, but current state of affairs was created by the actions of countries around the world. If there is anything especially exceptional about the United States, it is that it is a large political conglomerate that continuously assimilates immigrants.

    Cooperation between nuclear powers can only benefit humanity as a whole. A system of friendly competition and cooperation between countries than the wanton destructiveness of general war.

  36. Re:And why ... by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Naw. I fully expected them to show up at the nearest fireworks stand. Loads of fun that's sure to blow you away.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  37. Higher prices = 80 years by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Any argument that relies on higher prices for uranium needs to account for the falling cost of renewable energy which does not need fuel. Already wind power is helping to shut down existing reactors as uneconomical so demand for nuclear power is very unlikely to support higher uranium prices.

    1. Re:Higher prices = 80 years by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Any argument that...

      Please stop. I've now cited an official government source, and a reputable international source. Both of these analysis were done by a team of economists, nuclear engineers, and accounted for as many factors as reasonably can be taken into consideration. You have cited... absolutely nothing.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    2. Re:Higher prices = 80 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trade Secret!

    3. Re:Higher prices = 80 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your records are correct, but they're for Uranium Ore.

      Absent a couple of outstanding examples (Japan and France), virtually no country (especially the USA) does fuel rod recycling.

      We all process the U3O8 into reactor fuel with a bit of enrichment. We then run the fuel rods through a reactor, where a typical rod lasts about one year. We then pull the rods out, and store them for disposal.

      This is completely asinine. Reprocessing the "spent" fuel rods is somewhat more expensive than creating new rods from raw U3O8. However, it can yield between 60 and 90% new fuel. That is, reprocessing the spent rods means we get 3 "new" ready-to-use rods for every 4 (or less) "spent" rods. Which means we reduce the amount of new U3O8 needed by 3x or better.

      With just recycling rods, we can avoid having to mine the more expensive U3O8, and, even then, we can easily stretch the predicted Uranium supply threefold or more, which means we likely have 600-1000 years worth of usable Uranium. And that doesn't even include the possibility of using Plutonium from the the rods as fuel.

      The Uranium market and supply is much like Aluminum. If we used only raw Al2O3, we'd have been out of cheap Aluminum a decade ago, and we'd deplete all by the most expensive ore deposits in a couple more decades. Instead, we're recycling it heavily, and I don't expect that there will *ever* be a serious Aluminium shortage (or price run-up). We can't quite make that optimal state with Uranium, but we sure can stretch out our existing supply many hundreds of years more by the simple expedient of reprocessing. The biggest impediment to that is transportation from the reactors to the processing plant; but, once again, the smart thing there is simply build a reprocessing plant next to each cluster of reactors.

      Really, we're not going to run out of Uranium before we master fusion, under any usage scenario.
         

    4. Re:Higher prices = 80 years by careysub · · Score: 1

      Any argument that...

      Please stop. I've now cited an official government source, and a reputable international source. Both of these analysis were done by a team of economists, nuclear engineers, and accounted for as many factors as reasonably can be taken into consideration. You have cited... absolutely nothing.

      That the oceans contain enough uranium for 10,000 years of once-through energy production is well known and easily confirmed. The IEEE Spectrum article cites current research results that indicate the cost of seawater extraction can be performed at a cost of about $300/kg, a price point that the uranium spot market has already broken in the past, and the additional cost added to electricity by paying $300/kg vs current prices of around $100/kg is only about 0.6 cents per kwh still quite competitive with coal, gas and renewable energy sources.

      Economists making government resource projections aren't permitted to consider emerging (aka unproven) technologies. Up until now there has been little incentive to try to develop seawater extraction (more expensive admittedly) as long as conventional mines were cranking out adequate supplies at low prices. This will change, and new technologies developed and exploited.

      Just look at fracking. No production to speak of 10 years ago, now production is climbing steadily, soon to create a large gas surplus. Or renewable energy, with double digit increases in wind and solar power year after year. New technology and production processes with lower costs aren't limited to gas, solar and wind - uranium extraction benefits also. New processes often do not get perfected until there is economic demand for them.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    5. Re:Higher prices = 80 years by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Technically recoverable resources don't become economically recoverable if there is no demand at the higher price. It is clear that substitution is already proceeding at the current price. http://will.illinois.edu/nfs/RenaissanceinReverse7.18.2013.pdf Thus, even the economically recoverable resource is dwindling faster than it is being used. Citing experts on a subject they did not address is an indication that your comprehension of the subject is weak.

  38. Re:And why ... by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The US is a leader because we don't just talk big on the internet and rave into video cameras.

    Yes, once in a while we actually do something right. Buying the Uranium, which largely gave the substance a safe direction to travel, and a cash reward for compliance worked out well.

    Although, in 1995 I was in Prague when the news carried a story about a car being discovered with 6 pounds of enriched Uranium scooting around town. I was pretty alarmed because the people were evidently looking for a buyer.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  39. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    U238 + Neutron -> U239 -electron (beta decay) -> P239

  40. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    U-238 captures a neutron, becoming U-239. This decays via beta decay, turns a neutron into a proton, to Neptunium Np-239, which decays again via beta decay to form the more stable Pu-239.
    For more information see the wiki
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium

  41. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So you admit that your government is doing exactly the same thing and even in exactly the same program as the American government. Funny, then, that you say that Americans are all about spying on everybody, however when it comes to Canada, all you have to say is "yeah, we don't like it either."

    Unless you've been living under a rock, we (American citizens) aren't too happy about the thing as a whole. It doesn't mater which country it is that's behind it; whether our own or another.

  42. Re:And why ... by macpacheco · · Score: 2

    Google is your friend, but for the lazy:

    Right, the neutron capture makes U-239, then it undergoes two beta decays that add one proton to the nucleus:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-238

    I'm also not a physicist, but this explanation must the right, because it's the same in multiple sources (Wikipedia, nuclear lectures from multiple sources).

    For explanation of why the double beta decay adds a proton to the nucleus, see here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay

  43. Re:And why ... by QuantumPion · · Score: 2

    U-238 and hit it with a neutron to make Pu-239

    IANANuclear Engineer, but isn't it a proton that's needed for that?

    </pedantic>

    After U-238 absorbs a neutron it becomes U-239, which decays (half life = 23 m) to Np-239, which decays (half life = 2 d) again to Pu-239.

  44. Re:And why ... by bigwheel · · Score: 1

    Maybe we can get them to toss our spent fuel into an unused building at Chernobyl.

  45. Re:And why ... by QuantumPion · · Score: 1

    Oops forgot to clarify, the decays are beta decay, where a neutron in the nucleus turns into a proton and ejects an electron and antineutrino.

  46. Is Recycling a Dirty Word? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uhh ... only if you deliberately refuse to admit that this is recycling.

  47. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I gave the pencil to him"

    "I gave the pencil to he"

    "I gave the book to she"

    "I gave the book to her"

    If you can pick out the correct ones above, why are you so dense that you can't pick between "who" and "whom"? I won't comment on "intensive", but "begs the question"? Really?

  48. Re:And why ... by Millennium · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trust has very little to do with it. The people who have these weapons have them. The best that can be hoped for is a process of disarmament that does not cause too much damage if trust is broken, and one which prevents other parties from gaining the weapons and thus becoming risk factors in and of themselves.

    That said, this particular program was an ingenious way of proving that these weapons were destroyed. It put the most critical parts -what actually makes these things nuclear weapons- through a relatively open, transparent, and auditable process that rendered them, if not precisely inert, then at least unsuitable for use in weapons. Trades of this sort should be more common among countries decreasing their stockpiles.

  49. Re:And why ... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    Just wait; once we get the Slingatron built and working, we'll just toss all that garbage into the sun.

    Er, well, towards it.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  50. Re:And why ... by gstoddart · · Score: 0

    Unless you've been living under a rock, we (American citizens) aren't too happy about the thing as a whole. It doesn't mater which country it is that's behind it; whether our own or another.

    I'm aware of that. But we're mostly arguing silly semantics of if we can say "the Americans are spying on everybody", or if we can say "the Americans (despite the objections of some Americans) are spying on everybody".

    Functionally, there's no damned difference. You yell at your government, I'll yell at mine. You're free to complain about my government, and I'll continue to complain about yours.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  51. Re:And why ... by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And why do we feel the US is more trusted with this than anybody else?

    Because we already have enough warheads to destroy the entire planet 100x over? How is a bit more Uranium going to help us? So we can destroy it 101x over?

  52. Re:And why ... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 5, Informative

    Almost.

    U238 + n -> U239 (neutron capture)
    U239 -> Np239 + e (beta decay)
    Np239 -> Pu239 + e (beta decay)

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  53. Re:And why ... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the best we can say is "yeah, we don't like it either".

    Unfortunately, when our politicians act like douchebags, it reflects on us all. And, sadly, I suspect in many countries where this is occurring those of us who disagree with it are vastly outnumbered by the ones who think that it's OK..

    I don't think so. I have a feeling that those who don't like it do out number those who find such behavior appalling. The problem is, is that it doesn't seem there is any way to fix it within the framework any longer. The politicians/lawyers have warped and twisted the system to the point that it no longer serves "we the people" but the politicians themselves. I'm sure it probably always did to a point, but it's almost palpable now. Sadly we don't even have a good option for who to vote for any longer. Our last two presidents were voted into office on good wishes and little else. Bush was going to be reach across the aisle and work with both parties and focus on internal matters and avoid "nation building" and deficit reduction... Our current president was going to close Gitmo, cure global warming and give us unicorns and rainbows. My father has gotten to the point that he simply votes against whomever the incumbent is. If the incumbent is running unchallenged, he uses the write in.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I fear we have crossed the line where things can be fixed in a peaceable manner. I don't think we've come to the point where it will take an all out revolt to fix things. But I do fear there may come a time where riots will start occurring. Or even worse, the American people have become so complacent and distracted, that all of the diversions will keep us placated indefinitely. Then we are truly lost.

  54. Re:And why ... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oops, just notice I forgot the antineutrinos.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  55. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HEU is often used in second stages in most modern warheads. It's just dangerous to use as a pit.

  56. Re:And why ... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Proton: positively charged ....
    Neutron: neutral, hence the name ...
    I leave the rest to your imagination.
    (* facepalm *)

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  57. Re:And why ... by Strudelkugel · · Score: 1

    Trust has very little to do with it. The people who have these weapons have them. The best that can be hoped for is a process of disarmament that does not cause too much damage if trust is broken, and one which prevents other parties from gaining the weapons and thus becoming risk factors in and of themselves.

    A general perspective from Sen. Sam Nunn. The world requires more progress. I think people have become too complacent about these weapons.

    --
    Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
  58. Re:And why ... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

    Concise and educational. Thank you.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  59. The new US centrifuge plant is up and running. by Animats · · Score: 1

    There's no danger of a fuel shortage. The new US centrifuge enrichment plant is up and running, and the second section of the plant is under construction.

  60. 2 Years' Worth of Electricity for $17 Billion? by spmkk · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If I'm reading the article right, that entire supply of fuel-grade uranium set us back a total of $17B. If we can produce 10% of our nation's power for 20 years (i.e. supply 2 years' worth of our country's TOTAL electricity needs) on half of what Apple brings in per quarter, why on earth are we bothering with wind farms and solar arrays?

    1. Re:2 Years' Worth of Electricity for $17 Billion? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Problem #1: that's how the French do it.

      Problem #2: TMI - Never Again! - NIMBY!!!

      Problem #3: Greenpeace & the like, no they're not a big force, but in the 51-49 world of red-blue U.S. politics, they're just big enough to make any new nuclear projects a political liability.

      Diversity is strength, we should have many sources of power, but I do think that keeping our existing nuke plants running past 2x their original design lifetimes while making it virtually impossible to construct new plants with fundamentally improved designs is a special form of insanity that only a democratic political system like ours can manage to sustain for as long as we have.

      The nuclear waste problem is not yet solved - though I'm not very impressed with how we're dealing with coal-ash or atmospheric emissions of sulfur, mercury, etc., either. With all that desert, you would think that a site as, or more, suitable than Yucca Mountain could be identified, but no matter where you go, there's always somebody screaming Not In My Backyard...

    2. Re:2 Years' Worth of Electricity for $17 Billion? by cbhacking · · Score: 2

      Fuel is only a small part of the cost of operating a fission power plant. It non-trivial, but it's a lower percentage than for simpler / lower-energy-fuel power plants such as coal or natural gas.

      With that said, I agree that we should be expanding on fission power. Not at the expense of renewables - those are still well below where they could be - but at the expense of things like coal (which is currently needed to provide a lot of the base load that nuclear plants could handle so well and easily). However, given the current cleanup costs, etc. a single commercial-scale fission power plant costs more than $17e9 to build, and I'm not even sure if that counts its (decades of) fuel.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    3. Re:2 Years' Worth of Electricity for $17 Billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The nuclear waste problem is not yet solved

      You should do the calculations on nuclear fuel reprocessing and the thorium fuel cycle in general. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.

  61. Re:And why ... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 2

    Although, in 1995 I was in Prague when the news carried a story about a car being discovered with 6 pounds of enriched Uranium scooting around town. I was pretty alarmed because the people were evidently looking for a buyer.

    Well, you know, the life of a repo man is always intense.

  62. Re:And why ... by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hope I'm wrong, but I fear we have crossed the line where things can be fixed in a peaceable manner.

    I believe the time has long since passed where nothing except peaceful means and working within the system will be effective in causing change in some countries.

    Between the fact that they can monitor everything you do, use terrorism laws to detain you without trial, and have a huge imbalance in terms of force available to them -- the days a revolt being anything other than a suicide pact are long gone.

    Any attempts at anything more drastic will only allow them to say "see, terrorists". Unfortunately, they seem quite unwilling to listen to protests and reasoned debate.

    Ideally, opinion and policy swing back the other way and things get better. I, like you, fear they won't -- but hopefully countries start to realize you don't need to get as far down the path as needing an armed revolt to adhere to what were your starting principles.

    One would like to hope that civil disobedience and less violent means are still viable. And maybe that's truly naive, but the alternative is terrifying: if Western democracies have to resort to armed insurrection, it's all pretty much downhill from there. Because every piss-pot dictator will say "but see, you do the same thing", and the world as we know it will have changed for the worse.

    And, sadly, for a lot of people as long as their day to day lives are mostly the same, they're never going to understand why this is happening and not going to side with it. Ideally, you exhaust all other options before resorting to anything more drastic.

    One would like to hope there's still some shreds of enlightenment and finding a better way available to us.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  63. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whom the fuck ate my last twinkie

  64. Re:And why ... by epyT-R · · Score: 2

    Yes, of course, like the USA is the only country with NSA/CIA like organizations right?

  65. Re:And why ... by Zordak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And why do we feel the US is more trusted with this than anybody else?

    Because we already have enough warheads to destroy the entire planet 100x over? How is a bit more Uranium going to help us? So we can destroy it 101x over?

    No, we really don't. Nuclear stockpiles are a fraction of 1% of their cold war peaks (I calculated it once, but don't remember the exact number). I believe our silo-based missiles in the U.S. are down to 150 single-warhead Minuteman IIIs, at around 300 kT each. That's about 450 MT, which is still a lot of destructive power, but the largest single device ever detonated was 50 MT all by itself, and was supposedly capable of being boosted to 100 MT.

    And the OP entirely missed the point: This was not "giving" new nukes to the U.S. This was taking old nukes out of circulation and using them for energy. Using your analogy, this is going from 100x to 99x or lower, not the other way around.

    --

    Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
  66. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps someone can please post another TSA article?

  67. and to think... by Arancaytar · · Score: 4, Funny

    the us spent almost fifty years worried by the prospect of russian nukes lighting up their cities

  68. Re:And why ... by xaxa · · Score: 1

    The US has double the installed power of nuclear reactors compared to France or Japan, and more than 5x the capacity of the UK.

    The UK and France already have reprocessing plants to convert weapons-grade plutonium into reactor fuel, which isn't yet done in the US, so I'm guessing they have even less need for uranium.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOX_fuel#Current_applications

  69. Help, moderators, help! I beckon thee to read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent cites only WIKIPEDIA. Couldn't he bother citing something authoritative, something that isn't regularly contributed to by psych ward patients who have just enough cognitive skills to sometimes contribute?

  70. Re:And why ... by xaxa · · Score: 1

    Chernobyl is in Ukraine, not Russia. I think they might object.

  71. Re:And why ... by macpacheco · · Score: 1

    My bad...
    Beta decay doesn't add protons to the nucleus, it converts neutrons into protons+electron in this case happens twice:
      U-238 + neutron = U-239
      U-239 (beta decay) -> Np-239 (one more proton/electron, one less neutron)
      Np-239 (beta decay) -> Pu-239 (one more proton/electron, one less neutron)
    That's what happens when you pretend you try use chemistry knowledge 20 yrs after studying it (and not using).

  72. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um. No, stockpiles are significantly higher than that:

    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nwhmt.html

  73. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn. We so need the "Woosh!" mod.

  74. Easy answer to that one. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we can produce 10% of our nation's power for 20 years (i.e. supply 2 years' worth of our country's TOTAL electricity needs) on half of what Apple brings in per quarter, why on earth are we bothering with wind farms and solar arrays?

    several reasons:

    1) there ain't much left for sale. It was sold at a loss for political and military reasons (Russia didn't want her former satellites to have nukes right next door).
    2) fracking has an uncertain future. We frack because our lords and masters want to - and while the outcome of that decision is economic, the reasons behind it are purely political and subject to change.

    The people "bothering with" wind farms and solar arrays want to be independent of politically manipulable inputs. The Demolicans and Republicrats can't turn off the sun or stop the wind without killing us all. Some people like to plan ahead.

    I have children, so I have flexible, robust long-range plans. Unsurprisingly these include food, water, energy and self-defense for both the short and the long run. If things get really bad, the people with plans will eat the people who don't have any; but cannibalism spreads disease so we'd rather things didn't ever get that bad. Hence, we try to encourage the rest of you to plan ahead too, and think about sustainability on a long term.

  75. Re:And why ... by Peristaltic · · Score: 1

    Not that you should give a damn about my opinion, but this post is as well thought out and on target as the first was knee-jerk.

    What you have written above is the most realistic and insightful analysis that I have seen to date of our situation and options.

  76. Re:And why ... by careysub · · Score: 4, Informative

    Specially since this is U-235 (the primary nuclear fuel currently in use on civilian nuclear power stations). Using U-235 for nuclear weapons is only common in first generation nuclear programs. You see, enriching uranium is a PITA (separating isotopes), while separating plutonium from anything else is soooo much easier (chemical separation).

    Your notion is about 50 years out of date - this was a common idea in the 1950s. The perfection of the gas centrifuge, available since the early 1960s completely changed the equation.

    Highly enriched uranium is much cheaper than plutonium gram for gram (the cost differential is more than 10:1). That "easy" chemical separation you speak of has to be done in a hot cell, and produces large amounts of highly radioactive waste, and requires first making uranium into fuel, then cooking it in an expensive reactor for months, and then more months of cooling. HEU these days simply takes slightly radioactive natural or low enriched uranium and sends it through a gas centrifuge cascade in a modest-sized warehouse giving you product easily converted to metal at the other end after several days later.

    Highly enriched uranium (aka HEU, your "U-235") is widely used in modern thermonuclear weapons. The secondary casing is made out of it, the secondary spark plug is likely made out of it, and perhaps half of the total yield of warhead is when the highly enriched uranium is fissioned by the flood neutrons from the thermonuclear burn. There is roughly ten times more HEU in a modern weapon than plutonium, which is only used for the primary (where the fact that it has a lower critical mass is very important).

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
  77. just so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My girlfriend claims she can feel a difference when our electricity is being produced by Russian uranium.

  78. Re:And why ... by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "Do you have any idea what was happening in Russia after the USSR fell apart?"

    Most Slashchan readers aren't that old, nor are they "nerdy" enough to care about ancient times.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  79. Re:And why ... by kimvette · · Score: 1

    Plutonium is naturally occurring. The problem is we find only trace amounts because its half life is relatively short.

    "Plutonium is the heaviest primordial element by virtue of its most stable isotope, plutonium-244, whose half-life of about 80 million years is just long enough for the element to be found in trace quantities in nature.[3]"

    It is a primordial element - meaning it was extant since before the Earth condensed and solidified.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  80. Re:Help, moderators, help! I beckon thee to read t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent cites only WIKIPEDIA. Couldn't he bother citing something authoritative, something that isn't regularly contributed to by psych ward patients who have just enough cognitive skills to sometimes contribute?

    Protip: Crazy psych ward patients don't know they're crazy.

    Parent cites Wikepedia which lists the following citations:


    Kurie, F. N. D.; Richardson, J. R.; Paxton, H. C. (1936). "The Radiations Emitted from Artificially Produced Radioactive Substances. I. The Upper Limits and Shapes of the -Ray Spectra from Several Elements". Physical Review 49 (5): 368–381. Bibcode:1936PhRv...49..368K. doi:10.1103/PhysRev.49.368.
    Kurie, F. N. D. (1948). "On the Use of the Kurie Plot". Physical Review 73 (10): 1207. Bibcode:1948PhRv...73.1207K. doi:10.1103/PhysRev.73.1207.
    Tuli, J. K. (2011). Nuclear Wallet Cards (8th ed.). Brookhaven National Laboratory.
    Konya, J.; Nagy, N. M. (2012). Nuclear and Radiochemistry. Elsevier. p. 74-75. ISBN 978-0-12-391487-3.
    Jung, M.; et al. (1992). "First observation of bound-state decay". Physical Review Letters 69 (15): 2164–2167. Bibcode:1992PhRvL..69.2164J. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.69.2164. PMID 10046415.
    Bosch, F.; et al. (1996). "Observation of bound-state beta minus decay of fully ionized 187Re: 187Re–187Os Cosmochronometry". Physical Review Letters 77 (26): 5190–5193. Bibcode:1996PhRvL..77.5190B. doi:10.1103/PhysRevLett.77.5190. PMID 10062738.
    Nave, C. R. "Energy and Momentum Spectra for Beta Decay". HyperPhysics. Retrieved 2013-03-09.
    Fermi, E. (1934). "Versuch einer Theorie der -Strahlen. I". Zeitschrift für Physik 88 (3–4): 161–177. Bibcode:1934ZPhy...88..161F. doi:10.1007/BF01351864.
    Mott, N. F.; Massey, H. S. W. (1933). The Theory of Atomic Collisions. Clarendon Press. LCCN 34001940.
    Venkataramaiah, P.; Gopala, K.; Basavaraju, A.; Suryanarayana, S. S.; Sanjeeviah, H. (1985). "A simple relation for the Fermi function". Journal of Physics G 11 (3): 359–364. Bibcode:1985JPhG...11..359V. doi:10.1088/0305-4616/11/3/014.
    Jump up ^ Schenter, G. K.; Vogel, P. (1983). "A simple approximation of the fermi function in nuclear beta decay". Nuclear Science and Engineering 83 (3): 393–396. OSTI 5307377.
    a b Segré, E. (1987). "K-Electron Capture by Nuclei". In Trower, P. W. Discovering Alvarez: Selected Works of Luis W. Alvarez. University of Chicago Press. pp. 11–12. ISBN 978-0-226-81304-2.
    "The Nobel Prize in Physics 1968: Luis Alvarez". The Nobel Foundation. Retrieved 2009-10-07.
    Alvarez, L. W. (1937). "Nuclear K Electron Capture". Physical Review 52 (2): 134–135. Bibcode:1937PhRv...52..134A. doi:10.1103/PhysRev.52.134.
    Alvarez, L. W. (1938). "Electron Capture and Internal Conversion in Gallium 67". Physical Review 53 (7): 606. Bibcode:1938PhRv...53..606A. doi:10.1103/PhysRev.53.606.
    Alvarez, L. W. (1938). "The Capture of Orbital Electrons by Nuclei". Physical Review 54 (7): 486–497. Bibcode:1938PhRv...54..486A. doi:10.1103/PhysRev.54.486.
    Mcclain, D.E.; A.C. Miller, J.F. Kalinich (December 20, 2007). "Status of Health Concerns about Military Use of Depleted Uranium and Surrogate Metals in Armor-Penetrating Munitions" (pdf). NATO. Retrieved November 14, 2010.
    Nuclear France: Materials and sites. "Uranium from reprocessing".
    Facts from Cohen. Formal.stanford.edu (2007-01-26). Retrieved on 2010-10-24.
    Advanced Nuclear Power Reactors | G

  81. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But his point was that the COST of these programs, "liked" or not by the population, WILL BE PAID by that population. It's their responsibility ultimately.

    It reflects on the USA and their people, if a war started as a result of our govt policies it would be the blood of the people to pay for it.

    It wasn't "all Americans support spying and abuses", it was "America as a country IS DOING THIS."

  82. It wasn't "recycled"... by Bartles · · Score: 1

    ...it was never used in the first place.

  83. Re:And why ... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    Not if you lobby for their EU membership.

  84. Re:And why ... by Zordak · · Score: 1

    Yes, I know. Silo-based missiles are only one of three prongs of U.S. nuclear capabilities (I said we have 450 MT in silos. Your graph shows about 2,000 total, which seems about right). Your graph actually makes my point, though it seems I was off saying less than one percent. According to your graph, our current stockpile is a few percent (maybe as high as 10%---As I said, it's been a while since I looked at actual numbers, and I'm not above correction) of our peak stockpile. But the larger point stands: we have only a fraction of our peak capability.

    --

    Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
  85. Re:And why ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And how can you trust what the US claims as far as the US destroying there weapons? Or for that matter Russia's claims on what they may or may not have? I can promise you with all the spying networks in the US and the number of unknown newer weapons, the US still has more stock then they claim to have destroyed.

    And yet other countries that the US claims to trust are allowed to have stock piles as well. But no one else is allowed..