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Lawmakers Out To Kill the Corn-Based Ethanol Mandate

mdsolar tips this report: "Teams of lawmakers are working hard on bills to cut corn-based ethanol out of the country's biofuel mandate entirely, according to National Journal. It's the latest twist in America's fraught relationship with biofuels, which started in 2005 when Congress first mandated that a certain amount of biofuel be mixed into the country's fuel supply. The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was then expanded in 2007, with separate requirements for standard biofuel on the one hand and cellulosic and advanced biofuels on the other. The latter are produced from non-food products like cornstalks, agricultural waste, and timber industry cuttings. The RFS originally called for 100 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol in 2010, 250 million in 2011, and 500 million in 2012. Instead, the cellulosic industry failed to get off the ground. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was forced to revise the mandate down to 6.5 million in 2010, and all the way down to zero in 2012. The cellulosic mandate has started to slowly creep back up, and 2014 may be the year when domestic production of cellulosic ethanol finally takes off. But then last month EPA did something else for the first time: it cut down the 2014 mandate for standard biofuel, produced mainly from corn. And now Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) and Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) have teamed up on legislation that would eliminate the standard biofuel mandate entirely."

35 of 314 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe this corn used for ethanol can be used for food again?

    Or, at the least animal feed, so the price at the grocery store isn't as bad, and farmers/ranchers are not as pinched as before.

    1. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I applaud them for trying. I also applaud them louder for realizing it didn't work and ending it.

      The problem in this stupid political landscape, You can't go back and say, It seemed like a good idea at the time, however I stopped it after we found out it didn't meet expectations. Which is really stupid, because it creates bad policies that just keep going on and on creating more harm, and making political leaders afraid to try something new.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by dpilot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Blasted flip-flopper!

      (Sarcasm alert)

      In "Earth" David Brin tried to come up with 3 culturally neutral definitions for sanity. One was the ability to be satiated - to say you have enough of something, and stop. Another was the ability to evaluate how things are going, and change your plans and actions based upon events and results. I forget the third. I once went back and located it again, trying to remember it. I forgot it, again.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    3. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by GameMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh, no. You're taking a half-remembered fact and mangling it. Almost all of the corn raised in this country is usable for food. However, the fact you are mis-remembering is that most of the corn isn't edible by humans straight off the stalk. Just because you can't eat it without processing doesn't mean it isn't still food. Even discounting corn syrup (which is still food) there is hominy, corn meal, etc. Even the stuff used as animal feed is still part of the food chain and increasing it's price still increases the cost of human food.

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    4. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by icebike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I applaud them for trying to end it, but it was never wise to turn over the best food growing land to fuel production.
      It was known from the beginning that it took more energy than it produced.

      Cellulose is the only way to go. One of the most promising sources is switch grass, which can be grown on much more marginal land, and pretty much re-plants itself (due to deep roots).

      Had an equal amount of money been put into cellulosic ethanol we wouldn't be stuck with a corn industry that is driving up food prices, and depleting prime agricultural soils. Nor would be have a bunch of corn processing facilities that will require significant work to convert to anything else.

      This has been an expensive failed experiment, about what you would expect when you rush something into production rather than letting the science and the industry develop. The problem was they didn't set it up to allow competition between sources. They went full funding and full legislative mandate for a single solution before they even did much research.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe this corn used for ethanol can be used for food again?

      Better yet, maybe land can be set aside or used for other things than corn again.

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    6. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Lifted from
      Sanity, he suggests, is "when a person is adaptable and satiable, capable of realistic planning and empathizing with his fellow beings." In the book, he expands on these traits:
      flexibility -- to be able to change your opinion or course of action, if shown clear evidence you were wrong.
      satiability -- the ability to feel satisfaction if you actually get what you said you wanted, and to transfer your strivings to other goals.
      extrapolation -- an ability to realistically assess the possible consequences of your actions and to empathize, or guess how another person might think or feel.

    7. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by bigpat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There really should be sunset provisions on all laws. If it is a good idea, then it can be renewed.

    8. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by mutube · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Er, no. Sunset clauses are a terrible waste of government time. Just think about it - if every law you pass gets a sunset clause, that means cumulatively over time you're spending a bigger and bigger portion of your time renewing previous laws to make them still active. You end up with situations like the US "fiscal cliff" - which miraculously every other mature democracy on Earth manages to avoid.

      Any good law will be a good law for a long period of time. If it becomes not a good law, repeal it. If you're not sure it's a good enough law to last, don't pass it.

    9. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I applaud them for trying. I also applaud them louder for realizing it didn't work and ending it.

      I'm not against government mandates per se - the clean air / clean water acts were hugely necessary. I'm all for minimum fuel efficiency standards. I also believe government has a necessary role in funding stuff which requires a long-enough term investment that the private sector is unlikely to find it worthwhile to get involved.

      BUT I don't like it when the government says "here's how you're going to accomplish this goal", because they just about ALWAYS screw that up.

      This is a perfect case in point. They certainly identified the problem correctly... but then they had to meddle because there was just too much political hay to be made. Even when this corn ethanol program started, it was already pretty well established that corn was the wrong source material to use for fuel. As I recall, there was already a near consensus among researchers that switchgrass was probably the way to go. But they let some powerful legislators from the midwest shape the program in a manner designed NOT to be good for the country's long-term interests, but good for their short-term political gain. And, predictably, now many people see the whole idea in a negative light - it raised the price of food, it raised the price of fuel, and in the end it didn't work.

      If the government is going to do this sort of thing, they should stick to setting broadly-stated targets. If they want to say "XX% of your energy/fuel must come from renewable sources by 2030", that's fine with me. But don't dictate that it has to be ethanol, or wind, or solar, or geothermal, or whatever. Let the private sector figure out how best to get to the goal - but don't relax the standards for them when they whine!

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    10. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lifted from
      Sanity, he suggests, is "when a person is adaptable and satiable, capable of realistic planning and empathizing with his fellow beings." In the book, he expands on these traits:
      flexibility -- to be able to change your opinion or course of action, if shown clear evidence you were wrong.
      satiability -- the ability to feel satisfaction if you actually get what you said you wanted, and to transfer your strivings to other goals.
      extrapolation -- an ability to realistically assess the possible consequences of your actions and to empathize, or guess how another person might think or feel.

      Huh.. so I live in a world populated mainly by insane people...

      That explains a lot, actually.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    11. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Cellulose is the only way to go. One of the most promising sources is switch grass, which can be grown on much more marginal land, and pretty much re-plants itself (due to deep roots).

      I've heard similar things about hemp, with the added benefit of hemp being useful for more than 1 thing.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    12. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In principle, I agree with the sentiment that trying something out, realizing that it doesn't work and stopping it is good.

      However, the underlying problem is that they set themselves up for failure because they didn't just say "we want ethanol fuel, and we'll let industry figure out the most efficient way to produce it," they said "we want ethanol, and we're going to subsidize a stupid way of producing it."

      Now the question is, will they understand that they failed at regulation, or will they (mistakenly) think biofuels failed as a solution?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Er, no. Sunset clauses are a terrible waste of government time. Just think about it - if every law you pass gets a sunset clause, that means cumulatively over time you're spending a bigger and bigger portion of your time renewing previous laws to make them still active.

      Huh? That makes no sense.

      So, basically, you're saying that it takes more time to buy (or not buy) a car someone built than it would take for you to engineer and build a car yourself. That's nuts, yo.

      No, sunset clauses are easy to deal with; it goes down like this:

      Senator Bob: Hey, this law is in sunset phase. Was it a good idea, and do we want to keep it, yea or nay?

      As opposed to months of 'closed doors' meetings, secret deals with lobbyists, writes and re-writes and re-re-writes, etc.

      You end up with situations like the US "fiscal cliff"

      That had nothing to do with sunsetting laws, and everything to do with the fact that our Congress is made up of, essentially, narcissistic 5th graders.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    14. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by hubie · · Score: 4, Funny

      When I was in college I was always impressed with how concerned the dredlock crowd was about the rope industry. Usually those guys got tagged with an anti-business label, but in reality they were really looking out for the small rope manufacturer.

    15. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You make the implicit assumption that government creates more good laws than bad ones. I suspect that the person who proposed expanded use of sunset laws doesn't believe that to be the case.

      (Personally, I agree with him -- the goal of the government should be to have the minimum amount of laws and regulation necessary.)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    16. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by mutube · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like the Constitution?

      Just to clarify - I'm not against sunset clauses in all cases. But I am against the idea (expressed in the original post) that "There really should be sunset provisions on all laws." Some things don't need regular repeal - some laws are just that good. Like laws against murder. Similarly, short term laws to cover things (like getting back on topic corn subsidies) make sense as a short term financial instrument. There sunsetting makes sense - and gives a defined end point for companies that depend on the subsidy.

      What I can't agree with is applying sunset clauses to laws that are intended to last. The solution to "Some laws are bad" is not "Let's make laws last for less time and then renew them!" it's "Let's make better laws". If a law is so bad you can't bear to enact it unless it is automatically repealed in 5 years - it's probably not a very good law. All this accomplishes is feeding short-termism, allowing politicians off the hook for their crap. "Hey I passed a law! (But don't worry it won't do any real harm because it'll be off the books before we see the consequences)."

      Bundling these things into cumulative bills would mean they'll get so little oversight that they may as well be permanent. They're hardly read the first time, what makes you think anyone will pay attention to what the law says when it's on page 543?

    17. Re:Maybe this corn can be used for food again? by icebike · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet we see cars have been running their entire lives on E10, with none of these effects.

      Gas tanks are sealed. You don't have a wet wind blowing over your gas.
      Fuel system seldom malfunction (at least NOT more often than prior to E10. I've NEVER had a gasline freeze using E10, in spite of 30 years living in Alaska.)
      Corrosion and injector/pump damage? Maybe, but these are replacement parts anyway, they needed servicing prior to E10, and still do today.

      So if Blue Oval cars can't hack E10, its a good reason to avoid blue oval cars.
      The rest of the fleet has made improvements in durability and reduced maintenance more than sufficient to overcome any damage associated with E10.

      Doesn't mean I like E10. I suffer the same miles per gallon reduction that everyone else sees. (Well maybe less, since the car is new enough to have the tune compensated for it).

      The post you replied to was stating why ethanol was chosen, as opposed to Jet A, or Diesel or Butanol.
      The point being that it is the only alternative we have that can be mass produced, and still operate in the current fleet with minimal tuning changes.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  2. Probably a good thing by cold+fjord · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    1. Re:Probably a good thing by rollingcalf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But the land used for that corn is often suitable for growing other crops for human consumption.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    2. Re:Probably a good thing by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But how am I supposed to give billions in subsidies to corn farmers then?

      By converting their cornfields to switchgrass. They'll need to re-tool, which isn't cheap (which is where the grants and subsidies come in), but in the end, they'll end up with a much cheaper crop that doesn't need the same rotation and fertilizers you require with corn. So even if the subsidies are less, after the initial investment, the profit margin for farmers will be increased.

    3. Re:Probably a good thing by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But how am I supposed to give billions in subsidies to corn farmers then?

      I'm sure that the Democrats will find another way to give them billions.

      If it was the Democrats giving billions to the farmers, then how come they all vote Republican?

  3. Good by hduff · · Score: 4, Funny

    GrumpyCatGood.jpg

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  4. Re:reasons for it by mhajicek · · Score: 3, Informative

    It also damages two-stroke engines.

  5. About Time guys.... by bobbied · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This NEVER made sense environmentally, economically or technically.

    Technically, we hit the "blend wall" at about 10%. Above that amount, gasoline engines start to have issues with Ethanol. Rubber seals, hoses and plastic parts in fuel systems start having reduced lifespan. Above 10% some engines start having other internal issues. Gas mileage is reduced because Ethanol has a lower energy density. Ethanol is a water magnet, it mixes with water easily and is hard to keep "dry" so rusting and corrosion becomes more common in fuel systems.

    Environmentally, the production of ethanol doesn't really reduce emissions of C02 when you count the whole process of growing, harvesting, storing, transporting, processing into ethanol, transporting, blending and transporting the product again. It was at best a wash. Then when you consider how much more fertilizer, pesticides and tilling add to the environmental impact it clearly becomes a negative.

    Economically, the case is even worse. The whole process of producing ethanol is both labor and capital expensive. It is obviously more expensive as a motor fuel. Then when you consider what has happened to food prices as corn (a base part of much of what we eat as well as feed for animals we use for food) prices have gone up.

    But what about or dependance on foreign Oil imports? It helped, but was it worth it? T Boon Pickens has the answer to that. He thinks that we are stupid to convert food into fuel when we could be using abundant Natural Gas for a motor fuel. Converting gasoline engines to use natural gas is not that hard (albeit harder than 10% Ethanol) it works great with reduced range due to energy density. Refueling times can be comparable to gasoline and a large distribution network already exists in much of the nation.

    It's time. Do away with this mistake.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:About Time guys.... by couchslug · · Score: 4, Informative

      NG engines are easy to do and well understood, but the infrastructure issue means it's a fleet-use only item.

      Folks who work with NG generators report very long life and low wear. If I had a convenient source of CNG I'd convert at least one of my trucks to bi-fuel as "gas and gasoline" systems can co-exist. Ford is going to offer a CNG option on the extremely successful F-150. (That would make a great option for a work truck since CNG can be used to run cutting torches, generators, and so forth. Standard hardware could easily connect them.)

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/07/31/ford-f-150-to-get-natural-gas-engine-option/

      --
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  6. Re:Minimal ghg impact by borcharc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I looked at several ethanol proposals back in the 2000's, every single one I took a pass on investing in because it was obvious that I would loose my shirt the second the government pulled the rug. These things, just like wind, have never been or never could be profitable without the subsidy. Anyone who was dumb enough to invest in these things deserves to lose their shirt. I completely gave up on renewable energy in 2008 when it was clear to me that no one wanted real solutions, just government handouts. I saw several technologies and processes never built because they were profitable on their own and everyone wanted something with a government handout attached.

    Another major issue is with renewable power generation that isn't wind or solar. I can list off 10 projects that the utilities conspired to kill because they would be able to drive down the price of electricity in an area forcing them to shut down their legacy generation due to oversupply. The wind/solar mandate is the culprit in many of these cases as they have no choice but to buy X amount of wind/solar and they have to buy at the public market (electricity is traded electricity on a market based system in regional markets) so anything other than what they have and the feds require is a major threat for them.

  7. Re:Diesel is a better solution by mlts · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You won't be breaking 0-60 records anywhere near a metro area anyway.

    Believe it or not, diesels are getting embraced in the US. The Mercedes Sprinter van is a hit, and both Ford and Fiat (er, Chrysler) are both trying to get some type of decent diesel engine in a van that can compete. This is important because of fleet use of these vehicles.

    The "grocery getter" (i.e. half-ton) pickups are getting diesels as well, starting with the Chrysler RAM 1500.

    As for hybrids or electric vehicles, I've wondered about just having a pure EV drivetrain, then using a generator from Onan or Kohler mounted onboard with a fuel tank. This would require less time to design around, because the generators are already pre-made, and could be easily replaced if a part fails. Most motorhomes have an onboard genset, usually mounted underneath the rig, and if mounted properly with shock mounts and an exhaust resonator, are not loud.

  8. Lester Brown thinks this is a good idea by mdsolar · · Score: 3, Informative

    In his new book "Full Planet, Empty Plates: The New Geopolitics of Food Scarcity" Lester Brown writes: "Between 2005 and 2011, the grain used to produce fuel for cars climbed from 41 million to 127 million tons—nearly a third of the U.S. grain harvest. (See Figure 4–1.) The United States is trying to replace oil fields with corn fields to meet part of its automotive fuel needs. The massive diversion of grain to fuel cars has helped drive up food prices, leaving low-income consumers everywhere to suffer some of the most severe food price inflation in history. As of mid-2012, world wheat, corn, and soybean prices were roughly double their historical levels."

    He is pessimistic about cellulosic ethanol: "The unfortunate reality is that the road to this ambitious cellulosic biofuel goal is littered with bankrupt firms that tried and failed to develop a process that would produce an economically viable fuel. Despite having the advantage of not being directly part of the food supply, cellulosic ethanol has strong intrinsic characteristics that put it at a basic disadvantage compared with grain ethanol, so it may never become economically viable." http://www.earthpolicy.org/books/fpep/fpepch4

  9. Good... alternatives are better by BenJeremy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Switchgrass, Sugar Cane, and Hemp all provide more sustainable, easier-to-convert alternatives to creating ethanol, which, even with the subsidy, was more expensive per mile to operate vehicles with when made using corn.

    These alternatives cost about 30% less to convert and are easier to grow.

  10. i know!!! i know!!! by FudRucker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    lets turn all that ethanol producing infrastructure in to booze making infrastructure, that should keep the cost of booze down, and the liquor stores well stocked

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  11. Re:Diesel is a better solution by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, you won't be breaking any 0-60 records, which might make it difficult for the MURKA! FUCK YEAH! crowd to accept

    Dude, the "MURKA! FUCK YEAH!" crowd does 11-second quarter mile drag races in their 1000+ HP Cummins Dodge Rams.

    This isn't the '80s; diesels are not like those old shitty Oldsmobiles anymore. Even my lightly-modded MK4 Volkswagen diesel can beat a stock Mk4 GTI in a drag race. (And before you say "but that's modded" keep in mind that a new VW diesel has 140 HP, which is the same as a Civic, but has way more torque.)

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  12. Re:not the end of ethanol by Artagel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Remember, that ethanol is present as an oxygenate to prevent carbon monoxide and soot. The discontinuation of the use of MBTE (methyl tert-butyl ether) left ethanol the primary one. Methanol is even worse for engines than ethanol. Whatever the shortcomings of ethanol from an engineering basis, it is non-toxic in reasonable quantities.

  13. Re:Diesel is a better solution by caseih · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're right about startup. But that can be mitigated with block heaters in cold climates, which are already widely used. Especially on little tiny engines. As well it's not nearly so hard to turn over a tiny engine, so I think the cold start problem is no worse than gasoline. A small engine will warm up fairly quickly.

    I stood next to a big rig the other day when it was -40C (I was loading it), and it had no smell of diesel at all. Just a vague ammonia steam whiff occasionally. This is of course after it's warmed up. In my mind diesel is the only alternative in the future as it's the only engine capable of running without modifications on a myriad of biologically-derived oils. Heavier oil biofuels made by algae and waste digestion seem to be better bets than ethanol.

  14. The Fuel of the Future -- and it always will be. by Guppy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cellulose is the only way to go

    To borrow an old joke: Cellulosic Ethanol is the fuel of the future -- and always will be.

    From a chemistry or molecular biology perspective the concept looks great -- similar Hexose sugar units are in Sugar / Starch / Cellulose, so why not use the most abundant and cheapest material? The problem looks different from the perspective of evolutionary biology, however. Naturally occurring Cellulase enzymes, sourced from a wide range of different organisms, have each undergone a long process of optimization through evolutionary history. Yet every enzyme remains extremely slow and inefficient (compared to enzymes that process sugars and starches). Why is that?

    I believe the reason is that Cellulose (or rather, the Cellulose-in-Lignin composite matrix that plants use) is the end result of a very long evolutionary arms race between plants and their consumers. It has evolved to be resistant to microbial degradation -- never totally resistant, but just tough enough to ensure no critter gets a free lunch out of digesting it.

    Of course, not all Cellulosic Ethanol need be derived from purely microbial techniques; chemical and chemical/biological hybrid processes might break the evolutionary deadlock. Others have suggested engineering the starting material itself, starting with plants designed to produce more easily digestible Cellulose (which brings up the problem of how well they would defend themselves against insects and pathogens). Unfortunately, in each of these alternate solutions, the amount of work needed is enormous, and it is possible we are simply out of time, with regards to the funding for this sort of research.