Multivitamin Researchers Say 'Case Is Closed' As Studies Find No Health Benefits

schwit1 sends this excerpt from CBS: "'Enough' with the multivitamins already. That's the message from doctors behind three new studies and an editorial that tackled an oft-debated question in medicine: Do daily multivitamins make you healthier? After reviewing the available evidence and conducting new trials, the authors have come to a conclusion of 'no.' 'We believe that the case is closed — supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful,' concluded the authors of the editorial summarizing the new research papers, published Dec. 16 in the Annals of Internal Medicine. 'These vitamins should not be used for chronic disease prevention. Enough is enough.' They went on to urge consumers to not 'waste' their money on multivitamins."

Comments

supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[jaymz666]

yeah, and those that don't get a balanced diet?

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

yeah, and those that don't get a balanced diet?

Like me. I live alone, and so I don't cook very often. Mostly I get home from work, heat something up quickly and that is dinner.
I started on a daily multivitamin about a year ago, and have since generally felt better. For the minimal expense I will stick with my daily multivitamin.
YMMV.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[EmagGeek]

SHHHH! Case closed! Stop asking questions.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[girlintraining]

yeah, and those that don't get a balanced diet?

Reduce funding to supplimental assistance, call them lazy, imply that obesity and poor health is a moral failing, and that prayer is an effective medical treatment.

Duh... what are you, some kind of non-american? :/

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[msobkow]

Exactly. A $12 bottle of multivitamins every two months is a heck of a lot cheaper than fresh produce. And when you're on a disability budget, there is no where near enough money for a "healthy" diet.

Hell, I ate better in university than I do nowadays.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[vidnet]

A $12 bottle of multivitamins every two months is a heck of a lot cheaper than fresh produce

You're saying that as if the two are in any way equivalent.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[jaymz666]

Healthy foods are not cheaper. You can get a full meal from mcdonalds for under $4.
That can live in the fridge for weeks and never go bad. Spend the same $4 on fresh foods and they will go bad in days

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Anonymous Coward]

Our foods, even junk foods, are highly fortified. They have been for almost a hundred years. At one time a large percentage of American adults had real nutrient deficiencies, leading to deformities, vision problems, and most visibly skin conditions. The government fixed all of that by adulterating our food, and they continue to do that (unless you buy "organic" dry food stuffs).

If you feel better because of a multivitamin, it's almost certainly because of a single vitamin deficiency. Probably vitamin D, which is common and which can cause depression. A blood workup probably would have shown.

Multivitamins are mostly packed with stuff you don't need and aren't deficient in, even if all you eat is junk food all day.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[cayenne8]

Like me. I live alone, and so I don't cook very often. Mostly I get home from work, heat something up quickly and that is dinner.

Try this...

Try dedicating some Sundays, to cooking...do it for the week. I often cook 2-3 main dishes, maybe 2-3 sides...or one thing I like, is to grill a bunch of stuff, meats, veggies and just bag them. Then during the week, you can put them together in quick and interesting ways for lunches and dinners all week long.

Say you make up some hummus, and grill some veggies (eggplant, zucchini, onions, etc) and some chicken. A quick week night meal, is get some pita bread, spread on some hummus, and the veggies and chicken and there ya go. Next night, make a quick salad, throw in grilled, marinated veggies and whatever..etc. Doing stuff like that works well and make for easy throw together meals all week long (and lunches). I'd much rather do this than eat fast food, eat better, and with the money you save, treat yourself out every once in awhile to a finer dining experience, and get out and meet some girls. Do this...and then cook for them at your home, etc. All pluses!!

But I digress....cooking and eating this way cheaper and more nutritional, and hey..is kinda fun to spend a sunday with a couple of cocktails, throw on some tunes or some TV in the background and cook a bit.

One thing you might try too, is check the grocery store ads in your town, and see what's on sale and plan to cook around that. This way, you save money AND, most importantly, it keeps you from getting in a rut of cooking and eating the same thing day after day after day....

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[GodInHell]

Says the man who has never heard of beans and rice?

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Frobnicator]

Oh, yeah in those cases they are helpful. Or in cases where people's habits leave certain vitamins and minerals out. But never mind that. Just pay attention to my edgy new study and talk-show appearances.

As is frequently the case, the article is misleading and misinterpreting the scientists.

Also just like /. tends to do, the linked news article headline is sensationalized and exists just to get people to read the story.

The scientists talk about three specific things: (1) Preventing chronic disease, including heart disease and cancer, (2) preventing cognitive decline in seniors, and (3) high-dose pills to prevent subsequent events after a confirmed heart attack.

For those three specific things, multiple studies show they do not provide statistically significant benefits. They found that high doses of specific nutrients could slightly increase the risk of certain cancers in people pre-disposed to them, which is why they recommended against the multivitamins for those in good health.

Note that also in TFA they agree that there are some health benefits in specific cases. These include vitamin D in the elderly for bone strength, iron and folic acid for pregnant and nursing mothers (and in unrelated studies elsewhere, also in men wanting children), those with poor nutrition, and for other specific situations.

Note that the studies do not say multivitamins are worthless, nor does it address any other health areas except those three. That is just the headline sensationalism.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

That is just not going to happen.
From time to time I get out my slow cooker, and make up a batch of stew, or split pea soup, but mostly I just couldn't be bothered.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[cayenne8]

Exactly. A $12 bottle of multivitamins every two months is a heck of a lot cheaper than fresh produce. And when you're on a disability budget, there is no where near enough money for a "healthy" diet.

Wow....where do you live where junk food is cheaper than healthy, home cooked veggies, etc?

I cook most everything at home, and I've done it for awhile, even on very restricted budgets. But you have to buy raw ingredients (not preprocessed) and cut and cook them yourself.

Start by seeing what is on sale at the various grocery stores each week, and build your menu around those. I often hit 2-4 stores each week buying the sale items and going from there.

Buy what veggies and fruits are in season, those are usually the cheapest and best for you.

Doing things like that, can really help you eat healthier and cheaper than dining on preprocessed crap which will kill you in the long run. Also, find the days on which they mark down meats for quick sale, that's a good one. Hell, one time in college, studying for finals, I took a break to cook a late night snack...while a friend was coming over.

He came over with a pizza, and I was eating veal chops in a champagne cream sauce, and my meal cost far less than his....

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[kylemonger]

Well, no, they aren't equivalent but they can, for example, be the difference between general good health and having your teeth rocking in their sockets from scurvy if you can't afford the produce. Vitamin C is also important for connective tissue repair, which means that if you do hard manual labor, a supplement can produce a huge difference in your day-to-day quality of life for a whole lot less money than the produce.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Slashdot, where anecdotes and the placebo effect are accepted forms of scientific data. Please check your scientific literacy at the door.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[cayenne8]

Healthy foods are not cheaper. You can get a full meal from mcdonalds for under $4.

If you buy things that are on sale and in season, you can easily make meals that are in the $4 per meal and much better for you than McD's.

Hell, buy a bag of dried beans, onion, meat, etc....make a pot of chili that you can eat on for 5+ meals and it is in that range.

Make a big salad, and grill some chicken that was on sale...you can get several meals out of that for that price range, and is much healthier for you.

And no, it doesn't go bad in a day or two. Buy what's on sale each week and work from there.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[amicusNYCL]

Ah. Living alone with multivitamins it is, then.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Barlo_Mung_42]

The study isn't saying people didn't feel better. Just that it didn't help any more than a placebo. So you need to have a neighbor or someone administer them blindly and mix in fake pills and see if you notice a difference.

Also, if multivitamins helped, imagine how you would feel doing something with a ton of positive peer reviewed data backing it up, like eating a well balanced diet.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[easyTree]

Ahh yes, the elusively-defined well-balanced diet.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[jedidiah]

> Spend the same $4 on fresh foods and they will go bad in days

Not a problem. Eat it in days.

I can buy the most expensive deli meats and organic buns and still come out ahead of McDonalds and Subway. Never mind the more mundane stuff and "real food".

It's a RESTAURANT. It has a 5x margin by it's very nature. It has to. Otherwise it could not possibly stay in business.

A 5x margin is easy to beat.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Dahamma]

Don't get me started about all of the dihydrogen monoxide chemical additives in food these days. I mean, some places even sell it in bottles!

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Fjandr]

If I spent $4 for every meal, I'd be going over my monthly food budget by more than 3x.

Eating healthy is cheap. It just requires a bit of time and effort to actually prepare.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Fjandr]

They're conflating "cheaper" with "requires not being lazy."

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[queazocotal]

You can use pills to get girls into bed with you - but you generally have to crush them up so they're not noticed.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[msobkow]

$150 a month has to cover stuff like deodorant, razor blades, shaving cream, toothpaste, mouth wash, and food. That's $5/day, not $4/meal as one of the posters higher up had commented about McTesticles. And realistically, the food budget works out to about $120 after those "incidentals", leaving $4/day.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[nblender]

I don't really mean to life-coach you or anything but the benefits you will reap from learning how to cook and cooking your own meals is enormous. Not only will you be healthier, but you will meet eligible mates at the grocery store; and you will find yourself more interesting to potential mates if you can invite them over and make an absolutely amazing meal... My dad taught me how to cook and I'm now the creative cook in the family... My son has been helping to cook since he was 8 and now that he's 12, he is in charge of one meal every week. He makes things like schnitzel, pork roast, chilli, lasagna, stroganoff, etc...

 

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[jones_supa]

This. I occasionally buy preprocessed stuff too, but mostly cook my own. It tastes much better, is very easy to make, and is a fun little hobby.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[houghi]

I live alone and I cook about 5 or 6 times a week. The other 1 or 2 I go to a restaurant (Real one, not fast food) with friends. I spend almost no time on cooking as most of the time I cook the ultimate 'fast food' using a wok.

I bought a Wok cookbook at a second hand store and started cooking. Takes about 10-15 minutes to prepare my dinner (including prep time) and I use fresh vegetables and meat.

For work I prepare salads withe iceberg salad and make 5 of them on the Sunday. The iceberg salad is so it stays fresh. For those 5 I take about 20 minutes to one hour, depending on my mood.

So that is not even 2 hours per week I spend cooking.

The most important part of all this is planning. I started by writing down what I would eat for the whole week and bought accordingly. I now have enough experience that my shopping-list looks like:
2 crops iceberg
5 x for salad (e.g. for 5 days, smoked salmon, shrimps, tuna, mozzarella, ... Adding tomatoes and onions and the like if needed)
1 chicken filet (Good for 2 or 3 days wok)
1 x fish
1 x veal
1 x pork
1 x bag mixed vegetables for wok
2 x different vegetables

Then if needed different sorts of rice, different sorts of noodles, soya sauce, garlic, coriander, pipe onion, eggs.

I only need to do groceries once per week, so no time loss there either.

To me cooking each day is better then re-heating food. the sole thing that helped me do this was the planning part. Writing down what I was going to eat the coming week. That and buying a book about cooking with a wok and the looking for combinations that would taste good AND are fast to do.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Wow....where do you live where junk food is cheaper than healthy, home cooked veggies, etc?
I cook most everything at home, and I've done it for awhile, even on very restricted budgets. But you have to buy raw ingredients (not preprocessed) and cut and cook them yourself.

There is no such thing as equal availability of food in the US. Please read up on the Supermarket Gap and how it affects the diets of the urban poor and minority areas:

Studies show that cost is the most significant predictor of dietary choices, so healthy eating is especially difficult for the poor, for whom healthier foods are generally unaffordable.[4] Meanwhile, supermarkets generally provide food at cheaper prices than the bodegas and pharmacies that service inner-city areas. A study that compared supermarkets, neighborhood groceries, convenience stores, and health food stores in San Diego, California found that supermarkets had twice the average number of 'heart-healthy' foods compared to neighborhood grocery stores and four times the average number of such foods compared to convenience stores.[5] In many American cities, an urban grocery gap has caused a lack of access to healthy foods, high prices for the healthy foods that are available, and the health problems that result from an unhealthy diet.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Lumpy]

"Wow....where do you live where junk food is cheaper than healthy, home cooked veggies, etc?"

the united states.

A meal of fresh fruits and veggies plus protien = $4.50
A meal of Ramen noodles = $0.39
A meal of a hot dog cut up in the mac and cheese = $1.20

nearly 40% of Americans cant even afford the luxury meal of the hot dog in mac and cheese.

I am guessing you have zero idea as to what reality is for the bulk of the population, over 50% of your fellow Americans can not afford to eat healthy and a balanced diet.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[LF11]

Not really. Vitamin absorption is a complicated topic.

For example, in the case of just calcium:

* Phytic acid (whole grain cereals) inhibits uptake
* Long chain fatty acids (animal fats, including butter) inhibit uptake
* Vitamin C promotes uptake
* Vitamin D promotes uptake
* Protein promotes uptake

Now calcium-fortified cow's milk is very interesting. Because of the need to buffer animal protein with an alkaline buffer during digestion, drinking milk -- including calcium-fortified milk -- tends to actually remove calcium from the body. This is not the case for human milk because the calcium/protein ratio is different, but if you need to supplement calcium, consuming cow's milk is not a good method.

On the other hand, regarding iron:

* Calcium (and zinc, eggs, tea, coffee) inhibit uptake
* Vegetable protein inhibits uptake
* Vitamin C promotes uptake (same as with calcium)
* Copper promotes uptake

Iron is divided into two types: haem (from hemoglobin, i.e. animals) and non-haem. Haem iron is considerably easier for the body to absorb, but if you supplement non-haem iron with vitamin C, you get a very similar absorption rate as haem iron without vitamin C.

Nutrition is a very complicated topic. Every nutrient is different.

It seems that eating a balanced diet (including animal protein but not much animal protein) is actually a pretty good way to obtain most of the vitamins and minerals you need. If you need to supplement, you should definitely look up what factors promote or inhibit absorption.

Yes, many multivitamins contain non-digestible forms of vitamins. My favorites are iron oxide (rust) and calcium carbonate. Those are essentially non-absorbable forms of those minerals. Cheap vitamins have iron oxide and calcium carbonate. Expensive vitamins (sometimes, occasionally) have better forms. Generall, minerals in the form of an ionic salt are barely usable by the body.

I am unaware of the body becoming lazy with regards to absorbing vitamins, so I can't comment on that. However, it is a good idea to stop taking all vitamins at least once a week. If there is a "memory effect", this will help to reset things so the body does not become acclimatized/insular to a certain nutritional profile.

It is better to consume low doses of vitamins over a long period of time, than to sporadically consume large quantities. If I only ate fresh produce one week out of 3, I would consume a multivitamin over the course of the second two weeks.

It is a good idea to mix up multivitamins. Not all are the same, and your body's nutritional needs change over time. Semi-regular changes in multivitamin formulas can help satisfy any low-level deficiencies that might otherwise accumulate.

That is the philosophy I generally follow with multivitamins. I encourage you to read and learn as much as you can. The topic is immense. There is an unfortunate amount of bullshit in the field, but there is also plenty of good research.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[LF11]

On those weeks, I never wash the crock pot. I just restock it with more beans, rice, and spices and let it keep cooking.

Even faster than McDonalds, and probably half the cost.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[hazah]

I almost get it. Almost. I feel like this is a case of just selling yourself short for absolutely no reason. I've been there. I have. Sometimes, I slip back. But the effort vs the result had always convinced me that the extra 5 to 10 minutes can be the difference of dining like royalty vs staving starvation. All it ever takes is having fun with the process. Make it a game. Take care of the only person you absolutely have to.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[hazah]

You sound like you've cooked once, maybe twice in your lifetime. Don't you think most people cooking would be aware of this and would conpensate. By the way, the fact that you have to dishes being a problem points out that you might be a child, grow up.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I get that poverty in the US is an epidemic, but your 40% and 50% figures seem very inflated. Citation, please?

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[ljw1004]

How do you get $4.50 ?

1 apple = 75c at Trader Joe's, 50c at local second-rate produce stall

4oz lentils (protein) = 22c at Amazon

1lb other seasonal veg = 75c

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[jedidiah]

Quite. There are still going to be some vitamins missing from the fortification regimen.

There is a clear quantifiable disconnect here. Either the dietary recommendations for vitamins (and minerals) is a nothing but bullsh*t or this study is.

The average diet is likely to be deficient according to government guidelines.

Re:supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults

[ChrisMaple]

To quote Stan Freberg, "Laugh on you. Whole Island solid concrete." Dense housing like projects and other apartments, so beloved of leftists, have negligible capacity for any food but mushrooms.

"Well Nourished"

[nurb432]

No kidding.. but for those that are not, ( which is a LOT of people.. ) vitamins can help.

Re:"Well Nourished"

[jaymz666]

exactly.

The qualifier is stupid. If you are well nourished you don't need to supplement anything. But if you aren't lucky enough to be able to have the time to prepare your own perfect meal every day, then you may need something.

Re:"Well Nourished"

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

These were enormous, decade-long studies. The qualifier is perhaps a poor description -- vitamins offer no benefits outside specific, diagnosed vitamin deficiencies. So unless you think every one of the 100,000 nurses ate properly, yes, they are indeed saying your McDonald's and hot dog and macaroni and cheese diet is fine (vitamin-wise).

No differences in disease onset betweem the two groups, ergo useless. This is also how they fpund out silicone breast implants were actually safe, in spite of fraudulent lawyers driving Dow into bankruptcy because they could FUD juries. No difference (aside from immediate rupture effects) between implants and not. And specifically, onset of things like arthritis, joint issues, and autoimmune things, lupus, etc. No difference in rates.

not my Flintstones!

[turkeydance]

is nothing sacred?

terrible title

[larry bagina]

Not slashdot's fault, this time. The real conclusion is that multivitamins don't cure heart disease. But who takes them to cure heart disease?

My rock might be useless at keeping tigers away but it's useful for throwing at glass houses.

The best way to make a choice about supplements

[QilessQi]

In my opinion, the best way to make an informed choice about supplements is to have your doctor do blood work when you get a physical exam (which you should be doing yearly once you hit middle age). Labs can test for key things like iron, B vitamins, vitamin D, etc.

Your doctor can then ask you questions to help interpret the results. If your D is low, do you get a lot of sunlight or do you spend most of your time indoors? If your iron is low, do you feel tired or mostly energetic? What sorts of things do you eat?

Based on that personalized information, supplements or other dietary/lifestyle changes can improve your health, certainly far more than grabbing a random bottle of multivitamins at GNC.

Re:The best way to make a choice about supplements

[Okian Warrior]

God, I wish it were that easy!

I suggest all reading try to do just that.. and get the run around and have to argue before the GP will even order the tests, and multiple trips to multiple medical offices, surrounded by sick people that seem to be at death's door, that don't bother to wash their hands or cover their mouths when they cough, only to find out a week later at another appointment you need to pay for out of your deductible, that half of what you wanted tested, wasn't.. Then argue with the PA about what you and the GP, who's out playing golf, agreed to have tested in the first place.

And so on and so forth.. etc. etc. etc.

Let me add a couple to your list of "common hassles".

1) The doctor doesn't trust the "walk-in" results you already paid for, tells you to go get the same results from the hospital and pay for a new appointment. The hospital and the practice have an arrangement...

2) The doctor or lab tech mistakenly puts down the wrong diagnostic code ("for treatment" code instead of "screening" code) or the insurance company mistakenly files the claim with the wrong code, so that the cost comes out of your deductible instead of "deductible waived" for screening. Spend 2 years begging each side to fix a problem over which you have no control, all the while receiving "payment due now!" notices from the lab.

There is so much hassle and expense, so little gained from going to a doctor nowadays that many people get better value by diagnosing themselves from research on the web.

If you have the cold or flu, or something tangible and obvious like a broken leg, then by all means go to the doctor.

If you have something uncommon, you're much better off researching the net and then going to an MD for "try it and see" meds, or to order tests that can confirm or deny. The doctor has neither time nor motivation to do a good job.

Re:The best way to make a choice about supplements

[Okian Warrior]

If you wait until you feel sick, you may find out you waited too long. It does happen.

The problem isn't whether it's a good idea, the problem is whether it's a good value.

I agree with your sentiment 100%, but it works both ways: your doctor will ignore a serious condition, thinking that it's something more common until a crisis happens.

This has happened to me twice - the last time, I went to a doctor with symptoms specifically asking if I should refrain from going camping in the desert. He cleared me to go, and the ensuing incident was life-threatening and cost much more than it should have.

Did going to the doctor help? He specifically stated that my concerns were unfounded, because "that's really rare" - he actually said that. (Talking elliptically to keep my privacy.) I had to go to emergency services and my preventative trip to the doctor was wasted.

I get my vehicle diagnosed yearly, and have all problems fixed before they become critical. My mechanic will tell me what's wrong, show me the bad/broken part in situ, give a firm estimate for repair, and guarantee the result.

My doctor will give me an opinion ("try this, and see if it goes away").

His opinion is backed by nothing. If he's wrong, I can't even get the cost of the appointment back.

Re:The best way to make a choice about supplements

[Areyoukiddingme]

If you have the cold or flu... then by all means go to the doctor.

Please, no. Cold and flu are both viruses. No doctor can do a thing for you if you have a virus, other than give you the same advice you can get for free from your mother: rest and drink plenty of fluids. Americans really REALLY need to stop trying to get viral cures that do not exist. It wastes an immense amount of time and money every year, and it is contributing to the evolution of anti-bacterial resistant bacteria because doctors, in order to be perceived as having done something, will prescribe an antibiotic for a person with a viral infection. The virus will run its course regardless of the anti-biotic, and meanwhile the anti-biotic is killing a few random weak bacteria, leaving the rest to breed. It's a very bad thing and it needs to stop.

By all means, go to the doctor for the broken leg. Stay the hell home if you have the flu.

Precisely no surprise

[SheldonYoung]

“... supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit...”

This is a great example of how a precise statement by a researcher is misinterpreted or misrepresented when presented to the general public. The above statement is a useful result with a well-defined meaning which is being used in a context that makes it sound like supplements have zero benefit. It's no surprise that that supplements have no clear benefit... when you are a "well-nourished adult'! The danger is that this result can cause people who are not well-nourished to stop taking supplements that may be keeping them outside of harm.

Writers looking to make a story where there isn't one cause much more harm than supplements ever could. (No facts were harmed in the making of that statement.)

Targeted vitamins can help though

[sandytaru]

I felt like crap last winter and it turns out my Vitamin D level was on the floor (after extensive blood tests determined it was not thyroid problems or cancer. Thank goodness.) For geeks who don't go outside and prefer the dungeon/basement lifestyle, a 1000 mg dose of Vitamin D daily can be a godsend. (I was prescribed 10 minutes of daily sunshine at first, too.)

I also donate platelets regularly, and prior to a stint on the chair there I munch on some calcium chews, because otherwise I'll experience a total calcium crash from the citrate and pass out.

So while it's okay to stop wasting your money on multi-vitamins, it's important to know how your body responds to both long and short term situations and have the appropriate supplement on hand.

Re:well-nourished?

[Koby77]

Fast food DOES have nutritional value. In fact it is usually associated with having too much nutrition, too many calories, too much fat, and too much sodium. But I think your point is that fast food lacks sufficient vitamins and minerals, which may be true for a several restaurants.

"Case closed"?

[mi]

Though I've suspected the "multi-vitamins" myself for a while, I'm wary of any claims about "case closed" or "the science is settled"...

Re: But who takes them to cure heart disease?

[Anonymous Coward]

I take 'em to prevent scurvy. Arghhh!

Re:More pharma-financed bullshit coming our way!

[Desler]

Why would big pharma be against multivitamins? One. A Day, Centrum, Flintstones , etc brands are all made by Big Pharma.

Sure

[nospam007]

"doctors behind three new studies ..."

Doctors? Who cares what doctors say, what does Jenny McCarthy say?

Re:Sure

[Desler]

It's even funnier to hear how this is supposedly some sort of big Pharma conspiracy. Big Pharma companies sell billions in vitamin supplements every year. So in fact big Pharma would be against someone saying that multivitamins don't provide any benefit.

source?

[globaljustin]

Our foods, even junk foods, are highly fortified.

at first read this seems counter to everything I've experienced..."highly fortified....for almost a hundred years"???

i know some products advertise that they have vitamins & some regulation took place, but those regulations were always fought by the industry as "government intervention that costs consumers"

also, i'm more skeptical of a Pepsi that says it has vitimin C that will help me than I am of a multivitamin

Re:source?

[Jane Q. Public]

"Except that vitamins are just 'fortifying' a unhealthy diet. What difference does it make if the vitamin is in the junk food or the pill?"

But that's kind of GP's point.

This study was done on people with "no nutritional deficiencies". Yet vitamins are intended as supplements for people with nutritional deficiencies. As such, this study doesn't really show what it appears to be showing.

I mean, it's like studying the eficacy of a smallpox vaccine on a population that is never exposed to smallpox. Guess what? It's going to show no significant benefit, and even maybe a little bit of harm.

Seriously, this looks like a good candidate paper for the Journal of Irreproducible Results. That is to say: like other papers they've published, it might be valid science, but who cares?

Re:source?

[Maury Markowitz]

> I mean, it's like studying the efficacy of a smallpox vaccine on a population that is never exposed to smallpox
> it might be valid science, but who cares?

Uggg. Did you stop to think even a *little* bit about your line of argument? Here, let me demonstrate how bad it is

There is ample evidence that cyclophosphamide can cure cancer. In people without cancer, obviously it doesn't cure their cancer.

There is also ample evidence that it causes acute myeloid leukaemia, bladder cancer, hemorrhagic cystitis, and permanent infertility.

So, on the off chance that you might have cancer, should you take cyclophosphamide in the preventative role?

What, you don't think that's a good idea? Huh.

There is evidence that taking vitamins is good for people with vitamin deficiencies. In people without vitamin deficiencies, it does nothing.

There is some evidence that taking vitamins causes several health problems, including increasing risk of cancer in certain cases.

But in this case, you dismiss the outcome. Clearly the logic states that healthy people should not take multivitamins for the same reason that healthy people shouldn't take cyclophosphamide. Either that, or you need to go out and take some cyclophosphamide, just in case. Right?

Re:source?

[pepty]

Salt is iodized.

Folic acid is added to bread, cereals, flour, etc.

Vitamin C is added to juice, along with most other things marketed to kids.

Niacin is added to bread.

Vitamin D and calcium are added to milk and other dairy products.

Cereals (especially sugary ones marketed to kids) are usually fortified with a dozen vitamins and minerals.

You probably won't end up with a vitamin deficiency from eating junk food so long as you don't eat the same few junk foods exclusively. What you'll end up with is a diet with way too much of the wrong stuff.

Re:source?

[Jane Q. Public]

"There is some evidence that taking vitamins causes several health problems, including increasing risk of cancer in certain cases."

[Emphasis mine.]

Yes. And the vast majority of the evidence you refer to applies to taking LARGE DOSES of vitamins, not the amounts in the daily supplements being discussed here, jerk.

Did YOU think much about YOUR argument? Do you know what a straw-man is? Because that's what you did.

Re:source?

[nbauman]

There is ample evidence that cyclophosphamide can cure cancer

You, sir, are AN IDIOT.

Cyclophosphamide doesn't CURE anything, period.

Not true. Cyclophosphamide is used (as part of a treatment protocol) for acute lymphocytic leukemia. Childhood ALL has cure rates of ~ 95%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_lymphocytic_leukemia#Treatment

And here was I thinking that people on slashdot would know that (to date) the only thing that 'cures' you of cancer (and, I might add, a variety of other spectacularly nasty diseases) is death.

Not true. There are curable cancers. There was a small number of them, and the number is growing. The calculation of the cure rate depends on how you define cancer, early-stage cancer, and pre-cancer. But among the major cancers, early stage colon cancer is curable.

The usual definition of "cure" for cancer is that it will not return in your lifetime. If you're 75 years old, and the cancer won't come back for 20 years, and you die of something else, most people define that as cure. If you're male, you probably have prostate cancer, and that probably won't kill you either in your lifetime.

What is it about the Internet that makes people say, "You're an IDIOT!" when they hear something they don't agree with? Even when the person you're calling an idiot knows more about the subject than you do?

Re:source?

[nbauman]

This study was done on people with "no nutritional deficiencies". Yet vitamins are intended as supplements for people with nutritional deficiencies. As such, this study doesn't really show what it appears to be showing.

Vitamin deficiency diseases are generally third-world diseases. The population of the U.S. has very little vitamin deficiency. It's not as if doctors see scurvey or rickets when they go out into the community.

When Americans do have vitamin deficiency, it's usually because of a disease, hereditary or acquired. For example, alcoholics get vitamin B deficiency.

The New England Journal of Medicine had a case of rickets a few years ago, and the patient was a mentally retarded child who ate a diet entirely of Pop-Tarts.

Here's another one http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMicm1205540 -- from the Ukraine. "In addition to a diet poor in vitamin D and calcium, the patient had a history of biliary dyskinesia, which may have contributed to poor absorption of fat-soluble vitamins, including vitamin D."

Here's another one http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcp1113996 Autoimmune gastritis (pernicious anemia) is the most common cause of severe [vitamin B12] deficiency.

One major cause of vitamin deficiency is people on fad diets. The macrobiotic diet was one of the worst for that. Sometimes people couldn't follow the macrobiotic diet themselves, but they had an infant that they kept on a "strict" macrobiotic diet (by feeding them not much more than brown rice), and in a few cases the child died.

There are some stupid articles, like this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21310306 that simply measured vitamin D blood levels, without consideration of whether they actually had clinical disease that made any difference to the patient's health. (It's like finding an elevated PSA or a lung spot that will never develop into cancer.) If you don't know how to read a journal article, you might misinterpret this to mean that there was a lot of vitamin D deficiency. But I can't find any studies that show clinical vitamin deficiency in Americans without specific diseases, since America was industrialized during WWII.

Here's an article by people who do understand the complexity of the problem http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcp1009570 and here's what they say:

Randomized, controlled trials of vitamin D supplementation have addressed its effects on skeletal outcomes, but most of these trials involved supplementation with both vitamin D and calcium, making it impossible to separate out the effects attributable specifically to vitamin D.

I just spent half an hour trying to find an article in a peer-reviewed journal that describes vitamin deficiency in a population in the U.S. where the deficiency isn't the result of a serious disease, and I can't find one.

The only time Americans need vitamin supplements is when they're diagnosed with a specific disease that causes a specific deficiency. In that case, they should get treated with vitamins under the supervision of an MD. You have to find out the cause of the deficiency and treat it. Otherwise you could die. This isn't the kind of thing you can self-treat with Google searches.

"chronic disease"

[globaljustin]

Note that the studies do not say multivitamins are worthless

exactly

in TFA summary "chronic disease" jumped out at me...that's a pretty high bar for ***anything known to medical science*** to hit, and no one ever really claimed that multivitamins would just flat prevent cancer.

it seems like TFA wants to beg the question...but we can't let the researchers off the hook either...they *chose* the language and 3 categories

(1) Preventing chronic disease, including heart disease and cancer, (2) preventing cognitive decline in seniors, and (3) high-dose pills to prevent subsequent events after a confirmed heart attack.

by which to analyze the factors. That is research design and it, obviously, affects every part of your result. IMHO they look like amateurs for not including those who take multivitamins expecting a small performance boost (like athletes or fitness junkies) or to make up for a poor diet.

after reading this over and seeing a few other comments i'm definitely stickign with my vitamins

Re:"chronic disease"

[queazocotal]

'in TFA summary "chronic disease" jumped out at me...that's a pretty high bar for ***anything known to medical science*** to hit, and no one ever really claimed that multivitamins would just flat prevent cancer.'

Nuts.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24256379

"In two large, independent cohorts of nurses and other health professionals, the frequency of nut consumption was inversely associated with total and cause-specific mortality, independently of other predictors of death. (Funded by the National Institutes of Health and the International Tree Nut Council Nutrition Research and Education Foundation.)."

The funding body is unfortunate, but there do seem to be similar studies backing this up.

Re:So drugs good, vitamins bad? Trustworthy messag

[Desler]

Nope, big pharma is happy to sell you both. Centrum, One A Day, Flintstones, etc. are all big pharma brands.

Re:For 10 cents a day...

[Valdrax]

For 10 cents a day, I'll take the risk that I'm wasting my money. It's cheap insurance, and there might even be a benefit.

You might want to consider that there might be a significant risk of harm too.

Slight negative effect on lung cancer survival for high doses of Vitamin A.
Increase risk of all-cause mortality for high doses of Vitamin E.
Significant increase in mortality from gastrointestinal cancers from high doses of antioxidants, A & E in particular.

Re: supplementing the diet of well-nourished adult

[jaymz666]

Time and effort is not free

Re:Don't waste your money on vitamins -

[Fjandr]

Who do you think produces all those vitamins? The pharmaceutical industry reaps enormous profits from the production and sale of vitamins.

Re:More pharma-financed bullshit coming our way!

[Fjandr]

You mean the same pharma fucks who produce all of those vitamins? It's in their best interest for you to continue buying and taking massive amounts of anti-oxidants. Those are the same anti-oxidants that neutralize the process of the immune system oxidizing dangerous cells, such as cancer.

Re:More pharma-financed bullshit coming our way!

[Desler]

And to add to my previous post. Let's just enumerate a list of some of the vitamin brands sold by a couple of the big name pharma companies.

Bayer:

One A Day
Supradyn
Flintstones Vitamins
Pluravit
Elevit
Redoxin

Pfizer:

Centrum
Emergen-CStresstabs
Clusivol
Trihemic

Oh and to throw in, Pfizer even has a web page extolling the virtues of taking vitamins. Funny since you would have us believe they are against them, no?

GlaxoSmithKline:

Cetebe
Rutinoscorbin
Scott's Emulsion

For people who hate vitamin supplements it's amazing how many brands just those 3 companies alone sell, no? And that's not including all the other nutritional supplements they sell which would add at least another 10 or 12 items. So this notion that big pharma hates vitamins, etc. is pure bunk.

Re:GM rice with Vitamin A

[jedidiah]

> Spoken like someone who has plenty of options to eat.

Spoken like someone who takes pride in being a helpless ward of the state.

Between rice and carrots, carrots are remarkably simple to grow. If you have the soil and water for rice, carrots are no problem at all. They also store well.

If your fetish truely is Vitamin-A (and not just sucking Monsanto's dick) then you really can't beat carrots.

Carrots are like knowledge, a very small amount can go a long way.