Slashdot Mirror
Tesla Updates Model S Software As a Precaution Against Unsafe Charging
zlives writes "Tesla Motors has maintained that the most recent fire involving one of its Model S electric vehicles isn't the result of a vehicle or battery malfunction, but the company is still addressing the situation with a software fix, according to Green Car Reports. The California-based automaker has added a software function that automatically reduces the charge current by about 25 percent when power from the charging source fluctuates outside of a certain range, Green Car Reports says, citing the Twitter feed from an Apple employee, @ddenboer, who owns a Model S. You can read the text of the update below."
We all know electricity is dangerous. That's why they have those voltage and shock warnings.
Electric cars are therefore dangerous too.
Thus the only solution is to ban all dangerous electricity.
he he...he said software fix..he he.
Tesla is a danger to the prostitute and coke habits of the CEOs and members of board of every Established Car Maker in the world. It should therefore be banned.
I am glad to see Texas is leading the way in this regard. Y'all don't Don't Mess With Texas!
http://jalopnik.com/how-texas-absurd-anti-tesla-laws-turn-car-buying-into-1451492195
Also: yeeeeeeeHAW!
Yeah, right.
Obviously TFS is just cut'n'pasted from somewhere without even a pretense at editing, on anyone's part.
It's not a bug it's a feature!
You forgot to copy some of the hyperlinks, though. I looked below and only found the Golden Girls wishing me a Happy Boxing Day.
Here is the actual article, not the article about the article... http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089292_tesla-updates-software-to-cut-charging-if-wiring-may-be-bad
Assuming the fire was caused by undersized wiring in the circuit and not arcing, this "fix" won't do anything until shit's already glowing red hot.
The *proper* fix would be to redesign the charging circuit to continuously monitor feed impedance.
But then you'd have idiots screaming that their tesla refuses to charge at full rate because their crappy garage wiring is not to code...
The California-based automaker has added a software function that automatically reduces the charge current by about 25 percent when power from the charging source fluctuates outside of a certain range,
When I bought my model S, Tesla advised me against driving around with a wind mill on the roof because "it would cause too much fluctuations". Well, I guess I am safe to do so now.
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
Spoken with all the intelligence, insight acumen and sincerity of a bought-and-paid-for sock puppet employed by a major PR firm.
Don't you have another issue you're supposed to be spamming online forums with industry speak for ?
Better get working down today's list or you're going to be out of a job pretty soon, bitch.
Shut up.
SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
Now many home improvements can be a DYI project, but wiring a 240V-50A line is NOT one of those things.
This is a good thing.
I got the 100Amp High ower Wall Charger with mine, and this puppy needs some serious juice!
When i got the car, i used my old "Welder" outlet in the garage, which supposedly was rated for 30 Amps. Of course noone ever was drawing full load from this for long periods of time before people had EVs.
Even my 30A welder only pulls PEAK 30 amp, and not more than a few minutes at a time.
Once i plugged in the Tesla and charging at 30A, the plug got VERY hot, to the point where i was uncomfortable with it, and i manually throttled it back to 18A.
(My default the car will charge at 80% of the rated capacity, so a 30A outlet would charge at 26A)
I could imagine that if left unattended, and not watched over by a curious EE nerd, this would have ended badly.
For the 100A charger i ran 2Gauge wire (That's about as thick as your average garden hose!)
And even the 2Gauge get's noticeably warm at 80A sustained charging.
In the meantime i have been to many friends and family where i "plugged in" (or helped them install their own chargers) and I've seen some shoddy wiring in garages!
Most people use a Dryer outlet "rated" for 30A, but really only good for ~15.
And then for good measure they throw in a 40A wall plate connector.
The tesla charger only recognizes the plug, and - assumes if there is a 40A plug it can suck 40A out of it.
When that has been DIY installed on top of a 20A wiring..... bzzzz we have a problem!
So, hopefully the continuous line voltage monitoring will help a bit, and protect people from their own shitty wiring!
Make no mistake in evaluation of the result. Tesla developed and deployed an evolutionary step in the DNA of Adaptive Chargers. Do we "know" if other EV chargers have or had similar code? We may never know due to the sad facts of Closed Source and those corporate cultures still clinging to it. EV charging is inherently either a dumb load or an algorithmic ADAPTIVE& Smart- citizen of the grid.
You're comments are a reason that companies drag their feet on enhancing safety. They could do the right thing to add more safeguards. Then some will take that to mean they were defective in the past, and sue. We're actually creating disincentives for companies to improve. The auto insurance IIS safety standards are one of the few places where we provide incentives for companies to improve. I'm kind of surprised it hasn't caused lawsuits "you sold me an x that wasn't as safe as y". Hmm, maybe CYA causes the car companies to have crash testing as early as possible the product cycle to avoid that.
The correct fix is to halt the charging, display an error message stating line voltage sagged below acceptable limits, please consult an electrician. Then after clicking a disclaimer which is logged and submitted to Telsa HQ, charging can continue. If the wiring is shit, dropping charge current down to 25% would be more appropriate as if the voltage is sagging that much there is a poor electric connection somewhere that's burning red hot. 75% is still way too much.
So is this an OTA update, or does Tesla send owners some sort of flash drive to do the update with? TFA fails to say.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
So the basic idea is that if your power source is terrible (i.e. shoddy wiring in your home), then pulling too much through it could expose that problem via a fire. That isn't a problem with the car, but rather a problem with the substandard wiring. If Tesla merely responds with "it isn't us and isn't our problem", we'll invariably hear of more house fires and the Model S will be blamed.
So they develop a change that detects potentially substandard wiring from the symptom of poor quality power entering the vehicle. It then cuts the draw significantly in that case to reduce the risk of said substandard wiring causing a fire (notice the wiring would still be at fault). Suddenly, because Tesla has released a "fix", their car must have been at fault all along!
This is an absurd level of idiocy and quite frankly, if it continues and eventually sinks Tesla, then we deserve to choke to death on the smog of our own stupidity's making. It's really remarkable how terribly dumb the top of the bell curve is. All evidence points directly toward the future envisioned in the film Idiocracy.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
I wonder how well the charger would handle a 120VAC, 50 amp circuit. This has two legs that give 50 amps each and 120VAC to neutral... or the legs can be used directly for 240VAC. This circuit is a fairly common one for RVs.
"every opinion is a paid shill! they're all spamming liars!"
You sound like you should be on some medication. Or your current one is not working well.
|this post sponsored by Upjohn makers of Xanax®
It is exactly the sort of rushed software hack which results in subsequent bug reports.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
So they 'fixed' something that wasn't even the problem he's sure because the car logs said so...
Sounds like some bullshit and some backpedaling.
His ego is going to kill tesla...
Could be, but having been on the receiving end of complaints for software-driven hardware, an equally likely scenario is this:
They got a complaint about their car catching fire, and afraid of the PR nightmare this could cause, the top engineers were put on the case to find the problem as quickly as possible and fix it. Meanwhile, someone else was put on gathering all the additional information to feed to engineers/press/etc.
In their digging, the engineers discovered that the charging circuit wasn't really all that robust, and that this COULD cause a charging issue, even if it didn't in this case. With the work and testing already done, they rolled out a firmware update to test if this could be the scenario that caused the fire. The logs then confirmed that this issue wasn't the case, but they had a fully tested firmware update that mitigated other potential charging issues, so they released it instead of just keeping it to themselves.
This kind of thing happens all the time. Although I have also experienced situations where the releasing never happened, as the initial complaint was private and the company never wanted to admit publicly that there was an issue -- in this case, the "fix" was rolled into the next update that was actually supposed to do something else -- it came under "various minor feature improvements" IIRC.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The Tesla charging cord that comes with the car comes with a NEMA 14-50 adapter so the car can charge at most RV hookups. The neutral line is not hooked up so it just uses 240v/40A. It will only draw 80% of the rated current since continuous usage is supposed to be limited to 80% of capacity in the US.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
I got the High Power Wall charger too but had Tesla's recommended electrician install it in our garage. They had to come out to perform an update to charge at the full 80 amps but other than that its been no trouble at all. I've only noticed that the cord leading to the card get's slightly warm but certainly not hot. I dial it back to 60A unless I'm in a hurry because I suspect its easier on the batteries.
Either way I wouldn't recommend a non-electrician to do this without a building permit. If there was a fire, the insurance companies would probably try to deny the claim.
Greed is the root of all evil.
This isn't an issue specific to Tesla vehicles, but it is something that any electric vehicle owner should be aware of and an issue in general for home electrical distribution systems.
The first house I lived in when I got married had the entire house on a single 20 amp circuit (supposedly installed by a professional, but I'm not sure which decade with the tar & cotton wiring I ended up spotting as I went through the attic), and the house I grew up in was only rated with the fuse box for 40 amps (again the whole house, but there were multiple circuits with that house). Even the house I live in at the moment is only rated for a maximum of 100 amps, and I'm not really sure how close to that limit I care to push the issue even though the wiring gauge does look sufficient for those power requirements. I know some new home construction can be rated for as high as 200 amps or more, but it is something to be discussing with contractors when the house is being built currently in terms of planning for potential needs of future power needs. IMHO it really needs to be added into the NEC (National Electrical Code) as assuming something like a stead base power load of 40 amps in a standard socket should be found in a garage or something like that.
That doesn't even get into the neighborhood power distribution systems that would need to be updated in a serious manner if electric vehicles became quite common. It most definitely will become a major issue for electric utility companies in the future if these vehicles become popular.
This is actually one of the "Default" Plugs that come with the mobile charger: NEMA 6-50 (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/nema-6-50)
The mobile charger uses the two 120 legs for a 240V charge voltage.
Unfortunately this is often "retro-fitted" over a 30A dryer outlet, or people use stupid stuff like "dryer Outlet Adapters": https://www.google.com/search?q=dryer+outlet+adapter
THAT's where the problems start.
Unfortunately there is no good way for a car to recognize the hacked, butchered and abused wiring in many homes.
(No, i'm not a licensed electrician, but i just remodeled and re-wired an entire house from the 50es. scary stuff!)
Now many home improvements can be a DYI project, but wiring a 240V-50A line is NOT one of those things.
The HELL it's not. I did the wiring on my home improvement - including upgrading the drop to 200A service - and (unlike my uncle) I'm not a licensed electrician or electrical contractor.
Here's the drill:
- Read up on the subject. Use several sources. One should be the electrical code itself.
- Do some initial planning, then talk to your local code inspectors BEFORE you TAKE OUT THE building permit and start the project, and adjust the plans accordingly.
- Do it WITH a building permit and inspections. (The fee for the permit pays for the inspectors!)
- Try to get it right, or as right as possible, the first time. Inspectors don't like to find a bunch of problems to be repaired. (It makes them worry that there are more they might have missed.) Fix whatever they spot, don't argue about it. Answer all their questions and be helpful.
- DON'T use aluminum wire, EVER! Use copper and pay the extra price. (Getting aluminum wiring right is hard, requires special tools, and you can't really tell if you goofed. If you get it wrong, it wil burn you down in a year or a decade.)
- When the code offers you options, go for the better approach, rather than the corner-cutting way.
- Look for the UL label (or your country's equivalent) - on EVERYTHING you use.
Things to remember about the electrical code:
- The national code is a model. Some cities adopt it verbatim, some with changes, a few roll their own. But the REAL code is the way your inspector interprets it.
- Be nice and helpful with the inspector. Don't argue. (Feel free to ask what you misunderstood about the code, what you're doing wrong, what the purpose of some fine point is. But don't take TOO much of his time.) He has the authority to shut down your project. Respect that.
- If you DON'T do it to code, and with a permit and inspections in locations that require it (almost all of 'em), and your house then burns down (even if your work didn't start the fire), your fire insurance can pay you nothing (and keep all the premiums you paid over the years, too.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I find I have the same problem if I use a generic USB charger with mine. My two solutions are either use the charger that came in the box, or use a really long USB cable and plug it into my PC. I actually have a 400ft USB cable that just about stretches from my work PC, down the stairs, out of the office, past security, into the parking lot, and to where I normally park my car. But I have to make sure I'm at work early or I lose that space and have to park further away, preventing me from charging during the day. Those days I charge a laptop at my desk, and then at lunchtime take the laptop to the Model S, plug the car into the laptop, and let it charge until the laptop battery dies.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
On RV related websites, "dryer receptacles" are a chief cause of magic smoke loss in people's rigs. That, or a rushjob done by an electrician who just had both legs wired up instead of one leg and neutral. Even a master electrician might end up things wrong, so it can't hurt to pull out the multimeter and check oneself.
One of the few ways RV-ers have to reliably tell is if they have a portable EMS like from Progressive or another brand. It is smart enough to notice undervoltage or overvoltage and safely shut off so stuff behind it doesn't fry, arc, or just phase change from solid to gas permanently.
The operating temperature rating of the cable would likely mean that it is perfectly safe, but would be uncomfortable to hold. For example, THHN cable is rated for 90C. The cable itself is safe (the insulation won't melt), but I sure wouldn't want to hold it. Hopefully, the 2 AWG cable you are using is at least rated for 75C, otherwise it is likely undersized according to the 2011 NEC.
Fortunately the explodeViolently flag has managed to stay off in most cases so far...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
This is addressed in the NEC. Forgot the section, but welder receptacles use under size wire due to the low duty cycle. For general purpose receptacles the rules are totally different. I found this out when building a beer brewing system. It always seemed wrong to me because nothing stops users from plugging in a kiln or electric car. They should give it a welder-only plug style.
I doubt that power distribution would have to be updated in a "serious" manner if electric cars become common. They will no doubt need updating, as they always do, since people's needs will change over time. Even if electric cars become popular the typical lifetime of a passenger car is something like ten years in the USA. I doubt electric cars becoming "popular" would mean every car is replaced by electric. Even if they were it'd be ten years for the change to happen.
The other thought that came to mind on how little this is likely to affect the power distribution system is that modern house wiring is typically around 200 amps in the houses I've seen in this area. I'm no electrician but I've been asked to help with house repairs with people I know that rent out houses. I've changed enough light switches and outlets to have a look in quite a few breaker boxes and I'll see 200 amp main breakers, a 50 or 60 amp service for a stove, 30 amp for air conditioning (I imagine larger houses might have 40 amp breakers), 30 amp for a dryer, and maybe something relatively big for an out building or hot tub. An electric car might pull a lot of power, perhaps as much as 80 amps, but it will do so at a different time than the other big users like air conditioning, stoves, and dryers. At least it will do so at different times if the users and/or manufacturers are smart.
If the electric cars have smart chargers that can draw power when the other big consumers of electricity aren't pulling power then the peak loads on the power grid will not change, which is where the system has to be designed. The average power used will go up but the peak should not.
I'm no fan of electric cars, I think that they are toys for the ignorant rich that like to feel better about themselves. I do understand that the electric grid is certainly adequate to handle a large percentage of light vehicles switching over to electric. This is with the caveat that the cars will be smart enough to avoid peak electric use times, which appears to already be the case so that people don't need new electric service to their house as a condition to buying an electric car.
I believe that calling these "electric" cars is something of a misnomer. The energy is not coming from the electricity, electricity is just the transmission medium. Gasoline is an energy source, it was just distilled out of the oil we pumped out of the ground. Electric cars are coal powered cars. You can keep your arguments about "carbon footprints" to yourself because I don't care. Until we start building nuclear power plants all these electric cars get their power from coal. If people want electric cars and no coal burning then we need nuclear.
Solar and wind are cute but if they reach a certain point of power generation, something like 20% of our power or perhaps as low as 5%, they will destabilize the grid. By "destabilize" I mean blackouts. You don't have to take my word for it, look it up.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Idiots like you just one step above 9/11 truthers on the evolutionary ladder of stupidity. Just one step.
A packet trace of a firmware update would be interesting. Has anyone built a replay box to download a modified firmware update into a Tesla yet?
blindseer wrote: Solar and wind are cute but if they reach a certain point of power generation, something like 20% of our power or perhaps as low as 5%, they will destabilize the grid. By "destabilize" I mean blackouts. You don't have to take my word for it, look it up.
I don't have to look it up because I already have proof that you are wrong. My state gets, on average, 27% of its power from wind turbines and 7% from solar, making a total of 34% from clean energy sources. It doesn't cause blackouts. Our grid is very reliable. It has not been destabilized.
On windy days, the state (South Australia) has drawn as much of 57% of its power load from wind turbines. The grid was not "destabilized". We did not have blackouts. We did not have to build a million zillion backup fossil plants. In fact we didn't need to build any at all.
But you don't have to take my word for it, look it up.
Is it like a yoda/dyslectic Do It Yourself?
Solar and wind are cute but if they reach a certain point of power generation, something like 20% of our power or perhaps as low as 5%, they will destabilize the grid. By "destabilize" I mean blackouts. You don't have to take my word for it, look it up.
This is not true.
In Portugal, for example, over 40% of electricity comes from wind (most recent data from 2012 -> http://www.edpsu.pt/pt/origemdaenergia/Pages/OrigensdaEnergia.aspx), and from what I I have come to believe by reading many comments on slashdot, blackouts are far more common in the USA than in Portugal. (one data point: I have been living in my current house for over 7 years, and have only had one 10 minute blackout in that time. This blackout was when I had just moved in, so we have been going for over 6 years with no blackout.)
I believe that Spain and Denmark are in a similar situation.
Look it up!
Why is this Slashdot worthy news? Really...
Portugal is different than the USA. You have more mountains and see which allow for more reliable wind and more prime places for hydro. Out here a typical windmill will run for 16% of the time. That means to get the same energy in a year as a gigawatt coal plant we'd have to put up 6 gigawatts of wind power, and still have to build a gigawatt peak power plant for when the wind does not blow.
I've seen videos of experts in the field explain why we cannot rely on wind and solar beyond a certain point in the USA. Much of what allows wind and solar to be cheap is having enough reserve capacity in traditional peaking power (typically natural gas turbines, sometimes diesel generators run from cheap heating oil) or in hydro. I took a tour of a pumped hydro station in the Tennessee Valley but they didn't use it to back up wind and solar but for peaking power for the nuclear and coal power stations. They can do that because the geography allows them to. Can't do that everywhere.
There's papers out there that study the Texas power grid. They ran simulations with increasing amounts of solar power. Somewhere around 10% of power from solar and the grid becomes unstable, just not enough reserve capacity available. When it comes to the cost of the power the math looks real bad. Power would get real cheap for the utilities, so cheap that at some points the price goes negative. A negative cost of power is normally nonsensical but it is a means to describe the problems a utility would have with excess solar capacity. Negative cost of power means, if I understand correctly, is that it would be profitable to pay someone to use their electricity. That may sound like a nice problem to have but when that cheap power goes away, such as the sun goes down, they will have to make up the difference with expensive peak power.
The cost of solar power may be negative at certain parts of the day but that does not mean anything when you can't get it when you need it. Utilities run on the average cost of power, that is what they charge the users. With solar power the average cost always increases.
That's another thing, how much does your electricity cost? Running on 40% wind is nice but if your power costs even the slightest bit more then it does not make economic sense. Talk about saving the environment all you like but people need to make a profit or they don't eat. Global warming and sea level rise is a century away, but people want to have supper before they go to bed.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Admittedly your state does have a few interconnections to the other states.
My Transformation Website
Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st