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Unintended Consequences: How NSA Revelations May Lead To Even More Surveillance

Lauren Weinstein writes with a slightly depressing end-of-year prediction. An excerpt: "This then may be the ultimate irony in this surveillance saga. Despite the current flood of protests, recriminations, and embarrassments — and even a bit of legal jeopardy — intelligence services around the world (including especially NSA) may come to find that Edward Snowden's actions, by pushing into the sunlight the programs whose very existence had long been dim, dark, or denied — may turn out over time to be the greatest boost to domestic surveillance since the invention of the transistor."

207 comments

  1. Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody will want to have anything to do with USA. Have fun on your own. Just stay where you are and don't come here, ok?

    1. Re:Does it matter by ranulf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nonsense. People in general don't care about in privacy, right up to the point where it suddenly works against them. It's just the laziness and apatheticness of human nature. It'll take a lot more than these leaks before people are really enraged, because at the moment everyone is still happy that "it's catching terrorists".

      It's just another example of "First they came..." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

    2. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First they came for the terrorists, and I didn't care because I wasn't a terrorist. Then they called me a terrorist, and nobody cared because I was a terrorist. I hear rumors that some people might consider becoming enraged someday, but enraged people are terrorists and nobody listens to terrorists.

    3. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nobody will want to have anything to do with USA. Have fun on your own. Just stay where you are and don't come here, ok?

      They will loose some business because of it; Brazil buying from Saab instead of Boeing for example, which is actually an interesting choice since the Swedish FRA is doing a lot of things similar to what the NSA is doing.

    4. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bullshit. People do care about privacy, Im one of them.
      What do you want, revolution?
      This administration wont last forever, whether its just a couple years, impeachment, or stroke.
      A big issue next election will be privacy. Dont count on the Dem side of the Repubmocrat party to hold the throne, though.
      People have had enough of Omama, just like they had enough of Nixon. Hes just running on momentum and imagination, as it is.
      Im going to make a prediction, he will be the first president to move out of the U.S.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    5. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What do you want, revolution?

      Action, start here: http://www.wolf-pac.com/

    6. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A big issue next election will be privacy.

      By the time of the next election, no one will remember who Snowden was, and the big issue will be whether to elect a woman or a homosexual.

    7. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I don't know. You don't really seem like a person to me. Maybe you can prove it by posting a copy of your drivers license, social security number and/or other personally identifiable credentials.

    8. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 3, Funny

      I blame food additives...

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    9. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Nice, well, lets see how far they get.
      It would be nice to have other than Repubmocrats dominating the ticket in it one party glory.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    10. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Let's all build a Great Fence around the USA.

      Let's build a greater fence around the NSA. We should include Congress and the White House while we're at it.

    11. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's just another example of "First they came..." "

      I just came here to say: no, it's not another example of the Nazis rounding up Jews, Communists, etc. It's really not. Your data being stored in some database somewhere is not even a close comparison.

    12. Re:Does it matter by no_go · · Score: 2

      I Keep seeing this argument "X also does it" , but the proponents seem to forget that other Electronics intelligence agencies don't have the capacity to do data collection on the same scale as the NSA (Not even close).
      They don't have:
      - The manpower.
      - The bilateral agreements with the same number of inteligence agencies
      - The scale of technical infra-structure
      - The number of locations where to implement listening posts (military bases, diplomatic posts, comercial entreprises).

      This means that they won't have the capability to get the same volume of information as the NSA, and as a consequence, have less access to information they shouldn't have.

      For Brazil (which isn't next door to Sweden), this means they will be less intruded on by the FRA than by the NSA.

    13. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is so cute! Yea, you care. What are you doing about it? You don't care enough to pick up your feet because, well, it will be a "big issue next election", right? And, when the elected official who ran a campaign preaching transparency becomes anything but transparent (see: Obama), then what will you do?

      People will not take necessary action until it is too late. We are doomed. It was fun while it lasted though!

    14. Re:Does it matter by NoMaster · · Score: 1

      Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water?

      --
      What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    15. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.S. Enjoy your bread and circus

    16. Re:Does it matter by AdamColley · · Score: 1

      Whoever you vote for the government gets in.

    17. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's just another example of "First they came..." "

      I just came here to say: no, it's not another example of the Nazis rounding up Jews, Communists, etc. It's really not. Your data being stored in some database somewhere is not even a close comparison.

      Err, revist your history.
      The information gathering phase came before the camps..you've got to know who to lock up/terminate..

    18. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more specifically, there hasn't been any privacy, at all, until the last 100 years or so of human civilization. Until we arrogantly broke families apart, you lived with your extended family and didn't have anything resembling privacy.

    19. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    20. Re:Does it matter by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Soapbox, ballot box, ammo box - prescribed in that order.

      How many letters to the White House have you sent?
      How many times have you written to your congress critters?
      How many of your friends, relatives, and acquaintances have you educated, relative to these issues?
      Are you speaking to your children and their friends?
      Have you encouraged all of those friends, relatives, acquiantances, and children to write to the PTB?
      Have you involved your state representatives in the discussion?
      Have you approached your local representatives?

      I promise you that if you consider the issue to be an administrative issue, you're in for a rude awakening. It isn't Obama - it is GOVERNMENT. Obama may be a rather large and obvious cog in the machine, but he is still just a cog.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    21. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really think Snowden will sit idly by? I'm betting he will drop a few more significant morsels about a month before the elections. Probably a little taste before the primaries too.

      His patience is remarkable, but necessary in order to keep his message in the press, and to stay alive.

    22. Re:Does it matter by LostMonk · · Score: 2

      Don't let the fact that the ever blood-hungry, ambulance-chasing media moved on to newer stories fool you.
      Snowden himself might be forgotten (if he's lucky) but until now there weren't visible economical effects of the state/world-wide blanket surveillance, such things need time to take in and respond to. When decision makers start to come up with real solutions (not just hot air in front of the cameras) and when non-American companies will come up with viable alternative services, the big-data USA-based companies are going to loose a lot of business.
      When that happens there will be changes.

    23. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Questions relating to sex and sexuality seem to be much more important to the voters than the core values of Enlightenment. They clearly have not been oppressed enough, yet. Our documentaries about most desirable futures depicting children and prisoners killing each other at islands, crimes of emotion and people remembering burned books are presenting the likely level of oppression required for the general public to act.
        On the subject NSA level intelligence gathering, the South American drug cartels were on it to detect informants years ago already so why not our inspired governments as well? Oh wait, governments getting ideas from the organized crime is actually a bad thing. The other way around was the good thing, or was it?

    24. Re:Does it matter by Merk42 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah I can't believe all this stupid PATRIOT ACT shit Bush is doing, I mean his administration won't last forever. I tell you what, next election I'm voting for the other party, this Obama guy promises transparency.

    25. Re:Does it matter by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Yes even if a nation can buy in vast amounts of super computing, have the local expert staff and language experts what can they do? Re build their bases, mil ports/sites with super computers, storage and vast numbers of satellite dishes? Tap into every backhaul optical network in their nation... what do they get? All regional and domestic traffic with something from the satellite dishes - intended for/sent from their nation.
      Only the US and UK have the global site agreements and can set their own international interconnect standards.
      Expect to see a long list of arguments from the usual sock puppets: its now very legal, it works, other nations do it, its good, its safe, the 'key's are all safe... needed too much storage, to much info to ever be sorted, political protections, the press would have found out, the private sector would never help, the courts still work... or just change the talking points to how the story was "presented".

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    26. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does writing letters help? You feel good about yourself, is that it?

    27. Re: Does it matter by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      What makes you think the electorate will be informed properly about privacy stances of any canditade?

      Remember, Obama was anti telecom immunitity explicitly, and anti exactly what's going on implicitly. What's to make you think the next batch of candidates will be any more honest?

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    28. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chemtrails?

    29. Re:Does it matter by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not even a close comparison? Really?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

      Adolph chose to tabulate data that was largely based on race and ethnic criteria. The US government is tabulating data based on other criteria. The US really isn't very "racist" anymore, so it may be safe to ASSume that they won't go after citizens based on ethnic and racial grounds. But - they do keep tabs on race, religion, ethnicity, age - EVERYTHING.

      The US government certainly won't round up tens or hundreds of thousands of people in each state based on race. Instead, they will round up TERRORISTS.

      Let us examine that term, "terrorist". http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005
      Definitions

      There is no single, universally accepted, definition of terrorism. Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).

      The FBI further describes terrorism as either domestic or international, depending on the origin, base, and objectives of the terrorist organization. For the purpose of this report, the FBI will use the following definitions:

      Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or Puerto Rico without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives.
      International terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping. International terrorist acts occur outside the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to coerce or intimidate, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.

      I have heard a lot of people described as terrorists. Edward Snowden immediately comes to mind. Check up on the incident at Ruby Ridge. And, the one at Waco, Tx. Over the years, a lot of people with a political agenda have been described as "terrorists". Funny - an awful lot of those persons have never used a weapon against another human being.

      The US is most certainly engaged in some of the same activities that Hitler's Germany engaged in, in the 1930's.

      I can only extrapolate from the facts where the government MIGHT be headed with all this information.

      We also know for certain that the United States has an industry based on imprisoning people for profit. We already imprison more people than all the rest of the world. We imprison people for some awfully stupid reasons - like toking on a joint. Or growing plants. Or, "distributing" copyrighted material. For looking at pictures which other people disapprove of. For supporting movements deemed to be "terroristic" by the government. For possessing a firearm or other weapon.

      You go on and stick your head in the sand. Ignore what is happening around you. Some of the rest of us will continue to sound the alarm. For many of us, it is alarming that the government can intrude into our private communications, and cherry pick our words to build a case of terrorism against us. But, you need not be alarmed - all you need to do, is keep drinking that Kool-Aid. Keep your head down, and don't think any "treasonous" thoughts. Don't make any friends who might have "terroristic" ideas. You'll be perfectly fine - until you're not.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    30. Re:Does it matter by Nephandus · · Score: 1

      We started in bands for thousands of prehistorical years, which broke and merged all the time. Family, beyond a couple possibly with young dependent children, is a relative modern power game not actually bred into us. It's just an early political sham that managed to depower/de"legitimise" any dissenters to retain its power. Religion, of course, got involved making everything worse.

      --
      "A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
    31. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First they came for the terrorists, and I didn't care because I wasn't a terrorist.
      Then they came for those that breached laws that were now easily detectable and that few people could disagree with persecuting, such as pedophiles... but I didn't care because I wasn't a pedophile.
      Then they came for those that breached laws that were easily detectable such as distributing copyrighted material, but I didn't care because I didn't distribute copyrighted people material.
      Then they came for those that downloaded copyrighted material, and no-one was left to speak for me.

    32. Re:Does it matter by YumoolaJohn · · Score: 1

      People do care about privacy,

      Some people do.

      This administration wont last forever

      Neither did Bush's.

    33. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there hasn't been any privacy, at all, until the last 100 years or so of human civilization. Until we arrogantly broke families apart, you lived with your extended family and didn't have anything resembling privacy.

      Yeah, yeah, people just went around all day looking in windows and reading your mail because you had no expectation of privacy. Oh wait, they didn't.

      The castle doctrine still stood, even if your grandma was living in the attic.

    34. Re:Does it matter by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Do they have insufficient manpower? They have fewer resources, sure, because their countries are smaller, but they have fewer surveillance targets, too, for the same reason.

      Also, there's nothing stopping them from outsourcing their effort to the NSA, which would probably love to be the google apps for business of foreign intelligence signals gathering.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    35. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the jury box. It comes after ballot and before ammo. Ammo should be avoided if at all possible. It tends to cause death to those that use it.

    36. Re:Does it matter by biek · · Score: 2

      This is no time to haarp about conspiracy theories

    37. Re: Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, Obama was anti telecom immunitity explicitly, and anti exactly what's going on implicitly.

      He was all about transparency in the campaign but he definitely voted in support of FISA.

    38. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to marry a young girl.
      I can't because the USA says I can't.
      I have to obey them.

    39. Re:Does it matter by erikkemperman · · Score: 1
      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    40. Re:Does it matter by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      If every person who cared wrote twice, it would not be enough.

      Fear makes people want this. Even if they say out loud that the gvmt has no business in their business, privately they add "except to catch terrorists".

      Numbers and logic are irrelevant here, because they were invented after fear and instinct.

    41. Re:Does it matter by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. People do care about privacy, Im one of them.
      What do you want, revolution?
      This administration wont last forever, whether its just a couple years, impeachment, or stroke.
      A big issue next election will be privacy. Dont count on the Dem side of the Repubmocrat party to hold the throne, though.
      People have had enough of Omama, just like they had enough of Nixon. Hes just running on momentum and imagination, as it is.
      Im going to make a prediction, he will be the first president to move out of the U.S.

      The people that are spying on us wasn't voted to office, will be there after Obama and his cronies are gone.

      So once again, if you truly care, doing nothing won't change anything.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    42. Re:Does it matter by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "except to catch terrorists"

      Our government is pretty effective at brainwashing the masses. Hollywood has set a fine example for them. MSM cooperates so well, it's hard to tell where government efforts end, and the media takes over. It's a damned shame - but I also have to point out that the more liberal minded people among us have been working for decades to emasculate the population. No one has the balls to stand up to anyone anymore. Hell, our typical response to violence is to roll over and cooperate. Dial 911, if you can, but cooperate, hoping to survive.

      Phhhhtttt . . . . 9/11/01 changed America's psyche, that much is certain. The change had already begun long before that, of course. Standard procedure during aircraft hijackings was to cooperate. We had at least 20 years of indoctrination before 9/11/01.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    43. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit, or you would post as Anonymous Coward!

    44. Re:Does it matter by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      They'll get as far as you take them.

      Shit's not gonna change itself. Join today.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    45. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about Congress, but there already is a fence around the White House and Fort Meade.

      Or was that the joke?

    46. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "when non-American companies will come up with viable alternative services, the big-data USA-based companies are going to loose a lot of business."
       
      LOL, like that will EVER happen!!! America KICKS ASS and don't you ever forget it.

    47. Re:Does it matter by celle · · Score: 1

      "How many letters to the White House have you sent?"

      I'm not getting sent preventive detention before I get a chance to use lethal force since I long since stopped believing that they are going to listen to anything else. The past is full of neutered/dead examples of those who talked first.

      "How many times have you written to your congress critters?"

      Ditto.

      "How many of your friends, relatives, and acquaintances have
      you educated, relative to these issues?"

      They aren't listening, don't want to miss Idol, or believe they can do nothing.

      "Are you speaking to your children and their friends?"

      Don't have any.

      "Have you encouraged all of those friends, relatives, acquiantances, and children to write to the PTB?"

      Ditto They aren't listening.

      "Have you involved your state representatives in the discussion?"

      They're scared to listen and give lip service.

      "Have you approached your local representatives?"

      Ditto.

      "I promise you that if you consider the issue to be an administrative issue, you're in for a rude awakening. It isn't Obama - it is GOVERNMENT. Obama may be a rather large and obvious cog in the machine, but he is still just a cog."

      He's also the cog in charge.

    48. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the other party, isn't it? There's just two of them, aren't there? Playing Ping-Pong with their country, both fully paid off by the corporations, secure in the knowledge that people will never be brave enough to vote for anything but the status quo they both represent.

    49. Re:Does it matter by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      No - he isn't. It's so easy to BELIEVE that he is in charge, what with all the melodrama we put on each four years at election time. But, he't not in charge.

      I don't even really know who IS in charge. I look at the Federal Reserve, and wonder if they are in charge, or if they are just a front for the people who ARE in charge. Then NSA figures in somewhere - but I figure that those people are just one of the tools used by the people in charge. Who is in charge? Hmmm. I suspect that Rupert Murdoch might have a very good idea. Of course, he isn't about to share any knowledge with us.

      Bottom line, I don't know WHO IS IN CHARGE, but it damned sure isn't that funny looking nappy headed dude with Islamic leanings. He is just a tool, being used by the real people in charge.

      Meanwhile, most of us mere mortals don't even rank highly enough to be used as tools - unless you consider sheep to be tools.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    50. Re:Does it matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... right up to the point where it suddenly works against them.

      Secret laws are rare; most are public even if it requires some training to understand them. People think laws are there for the problem-people and that writing some words on a bit of paper makes problem-people become perfect. Mostly because this is exactly what politicians promise their voters. The "outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns" philosophy highlights the contradiction in eliminating problem-people.

      ... "it's catching terrorists"

      This is the crux of the problem. Some big-wig can say "it's for your own good" and everyone agrees. For the most part, this is the purpose of the government. And everyone wants to dump their problems on someone else: The government is a nice target because we're all paying them to cover our arses. But no-one thought how a law legalizing theft could be used against law-abiding citizens. Or that laws being tough on (certain) crimes would affect parents with friends taking narcotic-based medicines.

    51. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Sending letters to the White House will get you mail you dont want and on lists you dont want to be on.
      Congressmen, I write all the time, some arent even mine.
      Everyone around me avoids me, if only for the issues.
      State clowns go only so far...
      More precisely it isnt government, it is the Repubmocrats. Remove the Repubmocrats and the machine works fine.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    52. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Bush? Check the makeup, this has been Nixon all along. Looking more svelt these days in his Omama gear, isnt he?
      Doesnt matter which party you vote for, its really the same party; Repubmocrats and you better believe theyre behind Nixon again.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    53. Re: Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Well , when campaigning comes about, you can be sure ex-used car dealers will include the privacy bit when they are writing campaign speeches for the candidates.
      I said it would be an issue, nothing about actually happening. How do you think they get the majority of fools to vote for them to begin with?

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    54. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      True, the plastic garbage brain people dont.
      Also true , it doesnt matter which administration, its all the same party and they all have the same agenda, just different faux-agendas for their demographic.
      Why the fake two party posturing? Its all about making the public believe they still have a choice and holding back any outside partys.
      This administration has lasted for well over 100 years.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    55. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      The people that are spying on us wasn't voted to office, will be there after Obama and his cronies are gone.

      So once again, if you truly care, doing nothing won't change anything.

                As if Obama was voted in, ha. Every election we put a Repubmocrat in office. It really wouldnt have mattered if they had put Romney in. The same things would be happening, maybe not in the same order, but it would be the same on major issues. Some issues are held to the faux-party that promotes them, like gay marriage from Democrats or concealed carry for Republicans, these are only there to keep up appearances and arent important to the Repubmocrat agenda. There IS only one party.
      So, if you care, you still cant change anything, but you can wind up on a list of enemies of the state.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    56. Re:Does it matter by antdude · · Score: 1

      Then, we need to prove that their privacy can be invaded but how legally?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    57. Re:Does it matter by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "Sending letters to the White House will get you mail you dont want"

      We had a Master Chief who kept two rubber stamps on his desk. On said "bullshit bullshit bullshit" in small print, many times. The other said "BULLSHIT!" three or four times in big bold letters. I enjoy hitting "reply" to some of those emails, and "stamping" them before sending them back.

      "and on lists you dont want to be on."

      I actually want to be on the lists of real patriots who love their country. If being on those lists offends some arsewipe, so be it. I really don't give a damn. I hope that I'm on a whole lot of lists. Ultimately, being on a list may be the death of me - but what the hell? I've already had a good run for my money.

      Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? [GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly, USMC; near Lucy-`le-Bocage as he led the 5th Marines' attack into Belleau Wood, 6 June 1918]

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    58. Re:Does it matter by YumoolaJohn · · Score: 1

      True, the plastic garbage brain people dont.

      From what I've seen, they make up the majority.

    59. Re:Does it matter by flyneye · · Score: 1

      I figure theres more livestock than people. Ive just come to accept it.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  2. Countermeasures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes this is true, But now those that wish to deploy countermeasures can now do so. I am not an American Citizen, the USA is collecting metadata on me and others and has no desire for my well being, so Encrypt and mask is the way to go. I'm not intending to do anything illegal, but I will do my damnedest to make it harder for them and their illegal spying game.

    1. Re:Countermeasures. by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      ...has no desire for my well being...

      [citation needed]

      The US government sees itself as the altruistic champion of freedom for the world. Granted, it's a defined subset of "freedom" that doesn't include silly things like "privacy", but rather more desirable American things like the freedom to choose what giant fast-food chain prepares your daily supply of saturated fat.

      Politicians don't stay in politics unless they believe their country has the potential to be great. The past several rounds of American politicians have perfected that arrogance to the point where they actually believe America is not just better than other countries, but that those other countries would be better off if they'd just get out of the way and let American morality and culture take over.

      They want you to be happy and free, living the American dream... whether or not that's what you want.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Countermeasures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The US government sees itself as the altruistic champion of freedom for the world.

      Actually, The US government presents itself as the altruistic champion of freedom for the world. In reality your (or my) freedom (and well being) extends only as far as they deem it necessary (at that particular time).

      Hypocrisy has replaced sincerity in our government's statements and actions.

    3. Re:Countermeasures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally I think you're delusional, and should [citation needed] yourself before you do it to others. If you actually stop and consider what the government has been doing, it's clear that they're not doing what you say, and you're cherrypicking results to match their actions to your worldview.

    4. Re:Countermeasures. by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Yes its 5 nations, a few other trusted US friendly nations, all their cleared staff and contractors too. Then add in the former and ex cleared staff and contractors with unique skill sets, many now in the private sector.
      Thats a lot of eyes on generations of trusted junk hardware and software globally.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:Countermeasures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not an American Citizen, the USA is collecting metadata on me and others and has no desire for my well being, so Encrypt and mask is the way to go.

      They're collecting metadata, not data. They don't care if you're looking for The Anarchist's Cookbook on Amazon or telling Ted about your date last night; they care that you're looking at anarchist.com and sending mail to Bill, Ted, Frank, and Mary. The parts of your communication they're interested in are the parts that can't be encrypted. If you want to obscure your existence from the current band of thieves, the best way is to install a spam broadcaster and seed some popular bittorrents to make if hard for them to figure out which traffic is yours and which is generated.

    6. Re:Countermeasures. by bonehead · · Score: 1

      There is nothing illegal about it.

      Unfortunately, this is true.

      That fact should worry people MUCH more than the spying itself.

    7. Re:Countermeasures. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Politicians stay in politics for the exquisite handjob they get for their ego, for the power, and for the financial rewards.

    8. Re:Countermeasures. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      No. He's just believeing what those in authority say about themselves. Actual events aren't involved. (Given the items he's listed, they can't be. Evidence about the motives for actions is quite difficult even with full access to the events.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    9. Re:Countermeasures. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I interpreted the gp as sarcasm.

      While it is true that a federal judge did say (i.e., rule) there was nothing illegal, that doesn't make it a true statement. There are lots of judges.

      Furthermore, I wouldn't believe it even if the Supreme Court had so ruled. The Constitution is fairly clear on that, and no law that violates the constitution is a valid law. (I'm not sure that the Supreme Court wouldn't rule that it was legal, for they are as corrupt as many of the other courts. But *I* will only consider it legal if I am convinced that the Constitution permits the laws that legalize it...and I'm rather convinced of the opposite.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    10. Re:Countermeasures. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Wrong. They are collecting the entire e-mails. They admit only to analysing the metadata. But they store everything. The idea is that if they get interested later they can get retroactive permission to analyze it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  3. horrid writing style by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there's so much whimsical fluff I couldn't even skim it

  4. Truism by mrbluze · · Score: 3

    Nonsense. Surveillance is already growing exponentially - every organization that can is doing it already. What it may instead herald is a hot war between everybody and the three letter agencies. Everybody is beginning to care about privacy, not only the few who were awake before.

    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    1. Re:Truism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everybody is beginning to care about privacy, not only the few who were awake before.

      Everybody is too busy drinking beer and watching TV to care about what you think everybody should care about.

    2. Re:Truism by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2

      I think it's the Media that is, as usual, massaging the message here.

      I don't blame people for not having a huge reaction, because everyone probably figures his is inevitable. The title shouldn't be "people don't care about security" it should be "people are resigned to Boomba, or death by Boomba." We are going to get boombad by the NSA or someone else.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    3. Re:Truism by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Counterintuitively perhaps, once these programs are made visible they become vastly easier to expand under one justification or another, because you no longer have to worry so much about the very existence of the programs being exposed.

      TFA argues:
      1) Snowden blows the lid off surveillance schemes, many of which are conducted illegaly.
      2) Intelligence agencies would like to continue these programmes and push for legislation to legalize them.
      3) Said legislation is passed.
      4) Surveillance continues unabated.
      5) Profit, sort of.

      Our "profit" is that we now know about these surveillance schemes. The problem however is that they will disappear underground again and increase in size and pervasiveness; once they are made legal, politicians (even the opposition) will no longer be much interested in attacking or exposing individual schemes, they will be attacking the legislation. And if the public forgets about the issue quickly enough, they will not succeed there.

      Only thing we can do now is push legislation the other way while we have some momentum:
      - Make "dragnet"-style surveillance illegal
      - Allow wiretapping in individual cases, after approval by a judge (and not a secret panel of judges)
      - If a company is not compelled by law to surrender information, they are forbidden to volunteer it.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    4. Re:Truism by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      once they are made legal, politicians (even the opposition) will no longer be much interested in attacking or exposing individual schemes, they will be attacking the legislation.

      Not just that, but Sen. Ron Wyden believes that if they are able to gain such a foothold, the "Business as Usual Brigade" will use it to justify non-terrorism related surveillance of the people.

      The linked keynote above is a must-listen for folks who are following this issue closely.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:Truism by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      "once these programs are made visible they become vastly easier to expand under one justification or another,"

      If the NSA wanted to expose its programs in order to expand them, it could expose them itself! It wouldn't have to wait until a whistleblower or dissident came along and did it for them.

    6. Re:Truism by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but they'd probably do it by giving some contractor more privileges than he should really have so he can take the heat for releasing state secrets...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:Truism by swillden · · Score: 1

      I'd modify your list a little:

      If a company is not compelled by law to surrender information, they are forbidden to volunteer it.

      Instead, how about "Unless required by law not to disclose it, organizations are required to notify each person whose information they share. Said notification is required each time the information is shared, and must include the information shared, the party to whom it is disclosed, the purpose of disclosure, and the privacy commitments provided by the receiver, which must be at least as restrictive as those of the sharer. In the event of information shared in aggregated form, the notification must be delivered to a government agency whose responsibility it is to evaluate whether or not it may be possible to identify any individual included in the aggregate. If so, the organization that shared it is required to notify all identifiable individuals. Failure to notify results in steep and exponentially-increasing penalties."

      Obviously the goal here is to address information sharing between all sorts of organizations, governmental and commercial, including company-to-company, company-to-government, government-to-company and even government-to-government... including US government to foreign government. Note also that there's nothing in there about "first to share"... the notification requirements exist at every step. Because this would be a dramatic, and in many cases expensive, change in notification burden, it should be phased in over time, but it should ultimately apply to all personally-identifiable information, even information which is currently considered public. Oh, non-commercial sharing by private individuals should be exempted, and "non-commercial" should be defined pretty loosely... posting a friend's wedding announcement on your blog shouldn't be a crime, even if you happen to have some ads on it. There are undoubtedly other adjustments that need to be made to the concept, even though I've tried to be as thorough as I can.

      Your "forbidden to disclose" is pithier, but I'd like to leverage this to address commercial sharing as well, and I don't think flatly forbidding that is in society's best interest. I think instead making people aware of what is being done and allowing them to make decisions about who they interact with, based on different organizations' privacy policies (which should be legally binding... may need some language about that, too), allows the most flexibility for an information-driven society to evolve, but allows individuals to retain control.

      Further, I'd limit the "disclosure restricted by law" bit. Restrictions on disclosure should be temporary, and their duration should be specified in the initial (court-reviewed) document, with reasonable justification. When the time expires, it should be the responsibility of both the agency that requested the information and the organization that provided to provide full disclosure to the target, including supporting documentation explaining the rationale. If, as the expiration approaches, the agency has reason to extend it, it can go back to court and justify the extension. Oh, and "because this would be embarrassing" should be specifically excluded as justification for restricting disclosure.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    8. Re:Truism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a company is not compelled by law to surrender information, they are forbidden to volunteer it; all while being strictly forbidden from surrendering information wholesale (like in Verizon's case)

      FTFY.

  5. POT (Personal Open Terminal) provides balance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no need to pretend to be hiding anything

  6. TFA is full of crap ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobody will want to have anything to do with USA

    It's not about USA per se.

    The entire thing is actually a reflection of the arrogance of those so-called "UNTOUCHABLES"

    They do not need to face the voters once every x-number of years, nor they need to answer to anyone.

    They are the bureaucrats, the non-elected bureaucrats that have grabbed hold of power through the back door method.

    Even the TFA itself is full of shit.

    If the net-surveillance scheme that has been exposed by Snowden is like giving the NSA (or any other spook organization) a blank check on what they do, we might as well stop catching murderers/rapers, and let them go on raping / murdering even more people, at will.

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by LifesABeach · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      2 tensors keep emerging. 9/11 occured because intelligence folks thought that wire tapping was good enough. The other is that the masses remain ignorent because their knowledge base is not a top priority.

    2. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by dotancohen · · Score: 2

      It's not about USA per se.

      The entire thing is actually a reflection of the arrogance of those so-called "UNTOUCHABLES"

      The entire thing is actually a reflection of the public's apathy. The real issue is now that the spying has been brought to the forefront of attention, the time has come for society to decide which fork in the road Western society will take: the ever-present surveillance route or the privacy-respecting route. The government agencies, and at their bidding the established media, are taking the stance that spying is the new norm. Twitter and Slashdot readers think that privacy should be the new norm. Arguably, neither have been a 'norm' until now.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    3. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by TheCarp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > 9/11 occured because intelligence folks thought that wire tapping was good enough

      Which is odd, I could have sworn it happened because a criminal group that wanted to make big headlines planned something that nobody really should have expected.

      There is also with that an implicit (and also incorrect) assumption that 9/11 was some sort of existential threat that we needed to be protected from; when the reality is it was little more than one of the the most brutal tragic publicity stunts ever by a group that had no hope of ever harming us as much as we harm ourselves in response to them....little more than a peanut to an over-active immune response.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    4. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by phrostie · · Score: 1

      so what the NSA is saying is that "We don't want to spy on our own people. The People Made us do it"

    5. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Smug, self-indulgent nonsense.

      I value knowledge as essentially my top life priority. I feel it's one of the things that makes us human. That doesn't mean I'm not ignorant of tons of information.

    6. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      9/11 occured because intelligence folks thought that wire tapping was good enough.

      It happened because of signal to noise ratio. The feds were aware of the guys who did it, the problem is that they were also aware of a thousand other potential threats. Every day they wake up with the task of finding a needle in a haystack, and their line of thought seems to be "search every haystack to increase the chances of finding a needle."

    7. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      The entire thing is actually a reflection of the arrogance of those so-called "UNTOUCHABLES"

      They do not need to face the voters once every x-number of years, nor they need to answer to anyone.

      They are the bureaucrats, the non-elected bureaucrats that have grabbed hold of power through the back door method.

      Do you really believe that some relatively low-paid bureaucrats are the puppet masters pulling strings behind the scenes? You believe they're doing it for their own benefit?

      That is stupid. You have to ask yourself who benefits the most from a locked-down surveillance state. It's not accidental that the NSA is collecting personal data and communications that the world's biggest corporations are...collecting personal data and communications.

      Damn, man. You're really not that bright, are you?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      9/11 happened because our chickens came home to roost so to speak. Decades of raping,robbing, and pillaging the middle east caused 9/11. The destroying of families, cultures, livelihoods, etc.. in the name of power and greed caused 9/11. Our arrogance prevented us from stopping it before it happened. No amount of security or degradation of the US Constitution, to trample our rights, is going to stop it. What will stop it? I don't know, but I think ending unjust wars, putting politicians, and greedy executives in prison, holding leaders accountable, and standing united with our human brothers and sisters (whether black, white, brown, Muslim, Christian, American, Iranian, Palestinian, whatever) against tyrannical governments and greedy corporations and banks. Obviously this is an ideology that will never come to pass, and if history show us anything, is that when you remove corruption more if it just takes its place. Since the dawn of man, there has always been people seeking fortune and power and will stop at nothing to achieve it. The ones that succeed seem to be masters at keeping us divided.

      Wiretapping is not a cause of anything, just an unfortunate consequence of people in power needing to stay in power.

    9. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by ImOuttaHere · · Score: 5, Informative

      ... 9/11 occured because intelligence folks thought that wire tapping was good enough...

      How can I count the many ways that this is so, so wrong? I know a lot of Americans who feel this way, but it seems to fail to meet the facts as we know them.

      There was clear warning. Wire tapping was more than sufficient.

      ...the intelligence community provided repeated strategic warning in the summer of 9/11 that al Qaeda was planning a large-scale attacks on American interests.

      Here is a representative sampling of the CIA threat reporting that was distributed to Bush administration officials during the spring and summer of 2001:

      -- CIA, "Bin Ladin Planning Multiple Operations," April 20
      -- CIA, "Bin Ladin Attacks May Be Imminent," June 23
      -- CIA, "Planning for Bin Ladin Attacks Continues, Despite Delays," July 2
      -- CIA, "Threat of Impending al Qaeda Attack to Continue Indefinitely," August 3

      The failure to respond adequately to these warnings was a policy failure by the Bush administration, not an intelligence failure by the U.S. intelligence community.

    10. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the terrorists won the moment the collective knees of congress jerked so hard they all tore their ACLs. no rational legislation is ever passed after a major incident. no amount of surveillance or security theater would have prevented a well funded, well orchestrated plan. they would have worked around even the current levels of surveillance and the 'security' at borders and airports. the billions spent now on false security and the shredding of the u.s. constitution is billions not spent on missiles and troops in the middle east.. it's billions not spent on growing u.s. economy and influence (but rather is slowly destroying both).. which is a main driving force of islamic terrorists in their jihad vs 'the west' - they hate our way of life, they hate our capitalistic society, they hate our freedoms... and the government is now their pawn, slowly whittling away at our way of life, at our free markets, and at our freedoms.

    11. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the NSA, while knowing that the needle is in haystack A, decided that they should add haystacks B - C before they started sifting for the needle.

    12. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Calling it a policy failure is making an assumption as to what their purpose was. It is quite possible that it was a quite successful policy, and that they just lied about what their purpose was.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    13. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, unless every single CIA threat warning was about OBL or al Qaeda, that isn't a "representative sampling."

    14. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Do you honestly believe that the NSA wasn't wire tapping before? They just obtained this expertise from a google search? I suggest taking the long look at tensor #2.

    15. Re:TFA is full of crap ! by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      You are not alone, there are several at the NSA that share your value system.

  7. All this says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The message this all carries is that Americans are bunch of idiots with whom I do not want to do any kind of business.

    1. Re:All this says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Good. Now go build your own replacement for Slashdot somewhere outside America and post there. If you're lucky, no one will join you.

  8. If you want to bend over ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Snowden's job was to incite outrage, soon after which the public would grow tired of outrage, settle down, and learn to get used to business as usual.

    If you want to bend over and getting the shaft, hey, please do it privately.

    I'd wager that there won't be too many people like you, happy to be "shagged" by NSA (or any other spooks)

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:If you want to bend over ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd wager that the NSA are happy with Snowden's activities, as they've found out that the majority of people don't give a fuck, and of the minority who do, hardly any are actually taking action.

      The primary outcome of Snowden is a carte blanche to the state, and the particular businesses on behalf of which it works, to do whatever the fuck it wants.

    2. Re:If you want to bend over ... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Based on my experience with friends and family discussing the TSA procedures, I am afraid you'll lose that bet.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:If you want to bend over ... by trongey · · Score: 1

      Snowden's job was to incite outrage, soon after which the public would grow tired of outrage, settle down, and learn to get used to business as usual.

      If you want to bend over and getting the shaft, hey, please do it privately.

      I'd wager that there won't be too many people like you, happy to be "shagged" by NSA (or any other spooks)

      You'd lose that wager. There are definitely too many.
      Spend 30 seconds on Facebook or Twitter to see how concerned people are about their privacy. As long as they can keep publicly posting their most intimate details they don't care what the NSA does.

      --
      You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
    4. Re:If you want to bend over ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that they post a lot of inane details about their lives does not mean they're posting everything. Another thing to consider is that they are volunteering the information for public/semi-private consumption. It's when a third party tries to help themselves to a person's information that people get upset. Seeing a person's face in public isn't a problem, but taking a photo of their face through their bedroom window is.

    5. Re:If you want to bend over ... by Anti-Social+Network · · Score: 1

      This may be moderately true in the US - for now. It is certainly not true overseas, particularly Europe. They are up in arms over there, and it's going to be really bad for American business. It has already begun. Once business starts crashing, and the jobs are lost, we're going to discover we really do care. How much we care is going to depend on how many people can follow the chain of consequences, rather than just watching MTV or whatever the kids are doing these days, but inevitably Senators are going to be listening to their campaign contributors if nobody else.

      --
      Goddammit just when I get my first +5 the Beta rolls out and kills everything
  9. Increase? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In what way? They gonna go to 110%?

  10. if you see something say something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i mean don't ask don't tell?

  11. I'm up next by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Coming up on Slashdot, a link to my poorly-written ramblings on my obscure blog of someone you have never heard of.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:I'm up next by mrclisdue · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      +1 Absolute Truth.

      Seriously, where does this shit come from?

      It's stomach-churning witnessing the decline of slashdot.

    2. Re:I'm up next by msobkow · · Score: 0

      Are you in high school? You have to write like you're a junior in high school to get published by Slashdot... :P

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    3. Re:I'm up next by chill · · Score: 1

      Slashdot doubles as a Turing Test for AI blog bots. Crowd reaction is used as a measure for passing. The problem is, what happens when most of the crowd at Slashdot is comprised of AI blog bots?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:I'm up next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed.

    5. Re:I'm up next by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Coming up on Slashdot, a link to my poorly-written ramblings on my obscure blog of someone you have never heard of.

      Ignorant poster is ignorant.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Weinstein_(technologist)

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    6. Re:I'm up next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but I haven't heard of him and he's got a GIRLS name. That disqualifies him right there. Unless of course he's not telling us something.

    7. Re:I'm up next by AdamColley · · Score: 2

      We bow before our new robot overlords?

    8. Re:I'm up next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coming up on Slashdot, a link to my poorly-written ramblings on my obscure blog of someone you have never heard of.

      You were deemed Insightful, however, I'll bet you were going for Informative...you know to help inform the moderators that such drivel is not welcome...

    9. Re:I'm up next by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, these silly posts from random people's blogs really make me yearn for the Golden Age of Slashdot, when serious articles from respected authors like Roland Piquepaille were the norm.

    10. Re:I'm up next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We refer the blogbots to MyCleanPC

    11. Re:I'm up next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coming up on Slashdot, a link to my poorly-written ramblings on my obscure blog of someone you have never heard of.

      Ignorant poster is ignorant.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Weinstein_(technologist)

      Ooh, a technologist! How impressive! </sarcasm>

      I see by the Wikipedia article that he's done nothing anyone would care about.

    12. Re:I'm up next by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      The problem is, what happens when most of the crowd at Slashdot is comprised of AI blog bots?

      You say that like it hasn't already happened. Many of the blog bots just happen to be organic in nature at the moment but most could be replaced by a short shell script.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  12. for those who find 'beta' to be uninspiring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a 'slashdot classic' choice is on the lower menu

  13. FWIW the NSA did not weaken DES by roca · · Score: 2
    From the article:

    Nor are reports of intelligence agencies weakening encryption systems anything new -- concerns about NSA influence over the Data Encryption Standard (DES), reach back about four decades.

    While this is true, it's a dumb example to bring up, since it turned out those concerns were misplaced. The serious concerns were that the NSA's choice of S-box values had somehow introduced a backdoor, but since the early 1990s we've known that the NSA's S-box values actualy *strengthened* DES against differential cryptanalysis (an attack which was not publicly known at the time).

    1. Re:FWIW the NSA did not weaken DES by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      What the NSA strengthened with one hand they still ensured the plain text was ready as always.
      So yes they helped to ensure the usage of the product was safer but also ensured the system was never beyond their ability to get plain text from :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  14. Jealous Governments & Big Business by mfh · · Score: 2

    NSA is a blueprint company. Even though we all know they are doing it, there's not much you can do about it. Huge multinationals will participate in schemes to monitor traffic and snoop in one country but they are regarded as being high and mighty privacy advocates in another? That's a load of crap. They are all dirty and have been since the 80s. Tracking and monitoring is what any big business does. If you do business with them, you have to accept that they are watching what you're doing. They are sharing it with all the governments. The fact NSA is being held up as an example is just another cold war move by Russia and probably China. You think Russia isn't watching everything their citizens are doing? China?

    There are no private states.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Jealous Governments & Big Business by geekmux · · Score: 1

      ...The fact NSA is being held up as an example is just another cold war move by Russia and probably China. You think Russia isn't watching everything their citizens are doing? China?

      There are no private states.

      Although I'm talking about a document that has been turned into nothing more than an art exhibit these days, you missed the entire point. There were supposed to be at least some level of privacy, guaranteed by the 4th Amendment. We even wrapped it up with nine other Amendments and gave them a title; the Bill of Rights, which our history teachers and lawyers explain to every single citizen in this country are still on the books.

      We would like to believe that our own government would respect that to some extent. I really don't give a shit about other countries mistreatment. I learned growing up there were certain guarantees to protect me from such abuse. When the United States no longer carries themselves above other abusive governments, they should not expect to be viewed or treated any better, nor should they expect economic prosperity.

    2. Re:Jealous Governments & Big Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think Russia isn't watching everything their citizens are doing? China?

      The outrage comes from decades of knowing damn well Russia does that. During that time we were also led to believe that we were better than them because "we don't do that, this is a free country!"

      It all sounds naive as hell now but I'm not keen on just letting it go. They beat those drums so hard for so long that we can't just walk away from it like "lol j/k"

    3. Re:Jealous Governments & Big Business by mfh · · Score: 1

      These American documents were always false. Look at the whole commie scare during the cold war. Everyone who was suspected of being a commie (as in anybody who didn't see exactly eye-to-eye with big business) was put under a microscope. The fact is that democracy's tenets are as freely interchangeable as any other ideology. It's all just a sham. A total nightmare. Nobody really believes any of this stuff do they? Do you really believe that not knowing what other potentially dangerous people are doing is a good idea? Do you not want to know?

      At the end of the day we can use all the information gathered to lock up all the wrong people or we can lock up the right people. Unfortunately all the people in charge are in their position because they are sociopaths. There is absolutely no defense against that kind of tyranny apart from utter revolt which by my watch is now impossible because our younger generation has now had a taste of revolt and how futile it is with Occupy Wallstreet. They accomplished NOTHING. Everyone knows it. Will they ever try again? Nope.

      Most people don't believe in fairy tales, but a good test of that is whether or not someone is a theist. Not atheist. A theist because the space there really means something.

      The funny thing is that anyone who calls attention to these things is torn down, and damaged. There is no way no possible way to defend against this sham.

      The only real way is when it eventually collapses in on itself but by then the real enemy will become evident. And it will be too late. That's the plan.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    4. Re:Jealous Governments & Big Business by mfh · · Score: 1

      The only free country is outer space. It ain't free to get there but if you can manage it, you'll have everything you need.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  15. election by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The electoral anger should be directed straight at the politicians. They control the budget and appoint judges. If they do not end all domestic spying they will be removed.

    1. Re:election by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't decide who to vote for: Fingerlicans or Tastycrats? Two is too many choices. Can't I just vote for Rihanna?

  16. I hope it doesn't become true, but it's only fair. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since I'm a foreigner and my rights are consistently disrespected (as are my country's laws and constitution and sovereignty), I think it's only fair that Americans suffer a little of their own wrongdoing.

  17. Economic cost of surveillance by Required+Snark · · Score: 5, Informative
    The unintended consequence of overblown surveillance is the loss of vast amounts of business for US companies.

    Boeing lost a $4.5 billion fighter aircraft contract to Saab in Brazil because of the revelations about spying. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-19/nsa-spying-blowback-continues-boeing-loses-brazil-jet-order

    Cisco has also seen major losses, and lots of other companies big and small are hurting as well.

    The US Constitution may have been put in the shredder, the courts may be rubber stamps for the US version of the STASI, and the Congress may be brain dead along with the DOJ, but now it turns out that all this useless spying has hurt the bottom line of Big Corporate American. You screw these people over, and your government funding is going to be severely impacted.

    The NSA and the other alphabet soup spying agencies have hurt the only group in the US with the clout to shut them down. The are going to be backing off big time.

    On the individual level, government intelligence insiders are going to discover that they will have a much harder time finding those cushy high paying civilian jobs that they expect to be handed when they leave the government. That's what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you. This could have the biggest impact of all, because the revolving door is a major motivation for the entire system in the first place.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:Economic cost of surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting the GAIN in business from... say storage... I wouldn't be surprised if NSA's technical operations rivals that of Google... spending MANY billions on data centers, storage and processing... Not to mention the fact that a TON of VC moneh is sourced from NSA perhaps indirectly (a ton of those phone apps that track your position and activity... I wouldn't be surprised to find NSA behind a large number of them).

  18. Re: Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Do you have a down syndrome?

  19. In your dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A big issue next election will be privacy.

    No it won't.

    The next election is going to be the same old bullshit issues: gay marriage, abortion, "when life begins", taxes, guns, Israel and a couple of other distraction issues that Rush and Fox News create.

    The nutty conservative fringe - I'm not talking about rational conservatives who want to put checks on government power and spending - I'm talking mostly about social conservatives who want government to regulate what one does behind closed doors. They seem to be driving the talking points in elections because they are the most shrill and irrational.

    Acid test: if a minister (Warren or whoever) gets quoted about an issue, then it's a distraction issue.

    1. Re:In your dreams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your vote or anybody else's vote was going to change anything, voting would immediately become illegal around the globe, except where it is already illegal. You would be thrown into prison for inciting change, starting a movement and in general for being an insidious nuisance as well as acting in bad faith. Or, you would be forced to live out your pitiful existence in a cave, where the mail is picked up only twice a year.

    2. Re:In your dreams by roeguard · · Score: 1

      The nutty conservative fringe - I'm not talking about rational conservatives who want to put checks on government power and spending - I'm talking mostly about social conservatives who want government to regulate what one does behind closed doors.

      Social conservatives don't just want to regulate what happens behind closed doors -- they want to outlaw it altogether. Because like all good hypocrites, its not how they would publicly admit to doing things.

      At the same time, the similarly radical element of the social progressives want to regulate what happens behind closed doors by paying for it with taxpayer funds and making sure we do it the "right way" and with "equality". Like a parent who keeps paying your rent well after college but demands you be home every weekend for "family time".

      Control is still control.

  20. Another Rovian conspiracy by Lucky_Pierre · · Score: 1

    President Obama will never let this happen.

    --
    "Whenever the cause of the people is entrusted to professors, it is lost." ~ V.I. Lenin
  21. spontaneous combustion obsolete like gangsterism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WMDs on credit, deception, healthcare.shove, all obsoletely fatal. free the innocent stem cells & use POT )Personal Open Terminal( to keep it clean

  22. Re: Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wtf are you on about...!?

  23. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The freedom-loving libertarians have never explained why freedom is a good thing.

    I'll give you one good reason for freedom: you have the right to post what you just posted without fear of reprisal from the government.

  24. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is not even theoretically possible for the freedom-loving individual to win against us statists.

    On the contrary, historically, it has happened about once every couple of centuries, and usually begins and ends with a bunch of particularly egregious statists' severed heads stuck on the fence outside the palace. Then, inevitably, a new batch of statists claws their way to power, until eventually it gets so bad that the public does it all over again.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  25. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... says the fool who hasn't suffered reprisal from government, because that sort of thing only happens to terrorists, and the fool is not a terrorist. Yet.

  26. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Transfinite · · Score: 1

    Absolutely! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power:_A_New_Social_Analysis He's been pretty much right so far.

  27. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Pav · · Score: 1

    ...and the freedom to be ransacked by the next hillbilly lynchmob / group of angry Dansk raiders etc... y'know... the reason we don't drive pickups with mounted anti-tank weapons like in Somalia.

  28. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And this is an argument against freedom? Freedom to let others know what the government is doing is essential.

    Your freedom to be against freedom is also contained in freedom, so you seem to be stuck between freedom and the truth.

  29. Greed will stop the NSA. by geekmux · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me tell you how this may really backfire on the US.

    All those greedy leaders of multi-national companies that have spent hundreds of millions on armies of lobbyists to manipulate Congress and lawmakers to make hundreds of billions in revenue are now going to start feeling the sting as they start losing business.

    You think this has to do with the average citizen dealing with privacy issues as the NSA snoops in? Like Boeing could give a shit right now about you as they've lost a multi-billion dollar contract. This has to do with greed. Always has. And to ensure those greedy leaders maintain their revenue streams, they WILL start putting pressure on Congress and lawmakers to stop the bleeding and contain this as best as possible. If that means re-gaining the trust of other countries by dismantling surveillance programs, then that may be what happens. If it means impeaching a President, then that may be what happens.

    Congress has not been under the control of the American voter for a very long time. Lobbyists control our government and laws, driven by greed, which is all-powerful. When business losses start climbing up into the hundreds of billions and unemployment rockets to 15% due to all of this, change will happen. Greed will ensure it.

    1. Re:Greed will stop the NSA. by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      Seriously, this only came about because Snowden was able to get out of the building with that much evidence. All the NSA has to do is add a few more procedures and that particular problem goes away. Without proof, they can simply write you off as a "conspiracy theorist", as they did to so many who have been screaming "They're spying on us!" for the last ten years. In truth, the article headline should have read "More Surveillance Will Lead To Even More Surveillance". They've started spying on EVERYONE, and the positive feedback loop will only make it increase. Sure, the NSA (and the US gubment in general) has a PR problem about this at present, but simply driving the surveillance back underground, where they think it belongs anyways will put an end to that. Then all they have to do is wait for the American attention span to make the rest of the problem go away. The loss to ostensibly American (but really stateless multi-national) companies (Boeing, et al.) will only be temporary. Meanwhile, every technologically advanced state and corporation on the planet is harvesting as much data as they can, just to a lesser extent. Remember: boil the frog SLOWLY.

      If you really want to work against the problem, don't attack it piecemeal (NSA spying, TSA overreach, federal spit collectors, chilling effects, etc.). Go after the REAL cause of the problem, this amorphous concept of a "War on Terror", and the stated objective to "keep us all safe". When your goal is something THAT ill-defined and nebulous, and you've got something as egregious as the PATRIOT Act in hand, well, repeat after me, "I love Big Brother".

    2. Re:Greed will stop the NSA. by khallow · · Score: 1

      All the NSA has to do is add a few more procedures and that particular problem goes away.

      Sure, it will. Those procedures were already in place. My bet is that as a culture, they got complacent and stopped following the procedures.

    3. Re:Greed will stop the NSA. by khallow · · Score: 1

      If you really want to work against the problem, don't attack it piecemeal (NSA spying, TSA overreach, federal spit collectors, chilling effects, etc.).

      I disagree. The piecemeal attacks can be effective in their own right. After all, one of the reasons for opposing the REAL cause are all those little consequences.

    4. Re:Greed will stop the NSA. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, this only came about because Snowden was able to get out of the building with that much evidence. All the NSA has to do is add a few more procedures and that particular problem goes away. Without proof, they can simply write you off as a "conspiracy theorist", as they did to so many who have been screaming "They're spying on us!" for the last ten years.

      I'm not sure where you've been reading that the governments computer security ratings are top-notch, but I seriously doubt that a few "procedures" are going to stop future data leaks or attacks against what is now known as the largest and most valuable data mine on the planet.

  30. Definition of NSA by iamnotasmurf · · Score: 0

    NSA = Not So Awesome

    --
    My sig has no nature
  31. Sounds about right . . . by Kimomaru · · Score: 1

    I think history will view this as a blessing for surveillance. Once it was thrust into the light and put out into the open, all that remained was a choice - are you for or against it. If you're still using a smartphone or social media, you've made that choice.

  32. the consequences are unavoidable. by nimbius · · Score: 0

    In order to maintain its power structure amid historic levels of unemployment and wealth inequality, the United States will certainly increase its domestic surveillance capabilities. in the past the media was complicit in ensuring economic and social policies of the united states were well supported by ignoring subversive or argumentative positions against them. safety nets were redacted in pursuit of the welfare queens cadillac, unions dismantled as they hindered economic growth (Reagans epic levels of spending for example were never challenged as a cause of economic stagnation.) the Savings and Loan scandals melted away amongst media platitudes and political talking points.
    with the advent of "netizens" and the internet, power systems are being directly challenged. If for example the general public had access to unfettered knowledge of the Iran Contra scandal as it has knowledge of the foreign surveillance practices currently in place, the outcome for Reagan may not have been so clear. The internet makes it impossible to ignore the demands of the public through talking point, as the counterintuitive opinions and critical examination of government policy is now freely availably for anyone to review. People can collude, talk amongst eachother, and god forbid form the elusive third party much more readily if we dont keep close watch on them.
    many would argue the surveillance net crafted by the state works so closely in conjunction with the capitalist class that popular uprising is still impossible, but Occupy has proven that despite their machinations the population can still adopt nasty campaigns to raise awareness of wealth inequality and poverty.

    as the concerns of subversive groups like occupy are easily researched and understood by Americans. the problem is exacerbated and the natural solution is to increase surveillance. arresting dissonants prevents street protests, but identifying them and their followers ensures the much more coveted chilling effect can be used to crush opposition. The courts of course will look the other way as the fourth amendment falls to the wayside just as the 14th amendment did in the purusit of mass incarceration.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  33. Supreme Court Judges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My only real question is the state of the supreme court judge panel. What are the views of those that are on it? Ultimately its the supreme court that will decide the fate of the USA.

    Will they call it unconstitutional or not?

    Trying to get an amendment against it put into the constitution will only result in having it turned down by elected officials(am I right the house and senate are the ones who vote on a constitutional amendment?) We have seen that the NSA's surveillance reaches to spying on all folks in our own government. Once you get dirt on someone you can get them to vote for or against anything including a constitutional amendment but it's worth a try.

    Anyone know how we get this started?

    Talk is cheap, lets do something!

  34. SLAVE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slave SLAVE I'm talking to you. Either you accept the lash or the punishment will be much MUCH worse.

  35. Filled with inaccuracies by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

    The article is filled with inaccuracies which all support this person's conclusion that, essentially "ho hum, nothing can be done and nothing will be done".

    It's in the scope of domestic intelligence that we can see the most likelihood of change. Unfortunately, much smart money is now going on the bet that in the long run the result of all these revelations will actually be more domestic surveillance (under various changing names and labels) not less!

    First he cites that bastion of liberal liberty, equality and fraternity, France, explicit legalization of their spy agency's domestic surveillance as evidence that the EU is "going there" en masse, with the spy agencies chortling all the way.:

    For example, just weeks ago, and shortly after a high level French ex-intelligence official was quoted as saying essentially that "we don't resent NSA, we simply envy them!" France passed legislation legalizing a vast range of repressive domestic surveillance practices.

    News stories immediately proclaimed this to be an enormous expansion of French spying. But observers in the know noted that in reality this kind of surveillance had been going on by the French government for a very long time -- the new legislation simply made it explicitly legal.

    The reality is much more nuanced in a number of important ways.

    First note that the EU directive that mandates private carriers retain IP and telephony metadata , the EU Data Retention Directive, stipulates a much shorter time frame- just two years- than the "forever and a day" time frame the NSA allows itself.

    This is not nothing. It's harder to blackmail politicians for what they did in their youths if you don't happen to have that data laying around to mine at the time they become politicians later in life.

    In general it limits the time frame at which abuse could be aided by super-god-knowledge of the target's most intimate details.

    Neither does the fact of the DRD in EU support this statement:

    So, the handwriting appears increasingly clear. Pressure will rise to move the responsibility for holding this data corpus from NSA per se, back to the carriers or perhaps some ersatz independent org, but the data will still be collected. And despite calls for more limited access by NSA and other agencies , one can safely assume that whatever access they say they really, truly need for national security, they're going to get -- one way or another. There's simply no obvious way that there will be a real return to any actual, meaningful, truly individualized search warrant requirement (no matter how any changes are ostensibly framed to the public).

    The reason it doesn't support it is because, under the DRD, a *court order* is needed by the intelligence agencies before they can access the metadata held by the telcos. That is a significant barrier, and in fact more in line with what has traditionally been the case in the US and which falls within societal comfort levels - a search warrant being issued to the police upon presentation of probably cause to a court.

    Secondly, and in contrast to the tone of this blog entry, there is significant political resistance within the EU by a number of nations which has resulted in the rejection of the DRD by the highest courts of the respective nations.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/mandatory-data-retention/eu

    Nations now fighting the Directive include Cyprus, Czech Republic, Germany, Greece, and Romania. The DRD was adopted in Romania, but declared unconstitutional in 2009. In February 2011, Cyprus declared their national data retention law unconstitutional. The Courts in Bulgaria declared their mandatory data retention laws unconstitutional and the German law adopting the Directive was declared unconstitutional in March 2010. In March 2011, the law tra

    1. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      An interesting analysis.

      My faint hope lies in the trajectory of the last time America had a collective nervous breakdown. I refer to the communist witch-hunt led by Sen. Joseph McCarthy. Eventually it burnt itself out with McCarthy in disgrace. There are many parallels with the current situation. Maybe Americans will come to their senses in due course.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    2. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this one has a little more steam in it. Back then you couldn't point to any smoking craters in American soil and say "Communists!", now all they have to do is pull up a photo of the burning towers or the aftermath of Boston and say "everyone who is opposed to me WANTS this to happen again"

    3. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by russotto · · Score: 1

      First note that the EU directive that mandates private carriers retain IP and telephony metadata , the EU Data Retention Directive, stipulates a much shorter time frame- just two years- than the "forever and a day" time frame the NSA allows itself.

      Sure, that just means European intelligence agencies have a two-year window in which to archive the data themselves.

      The reason it doesn't support it is because, under the DRD, a *court order* is needed by the intelligence agencies before they can access the metadata held by the telcos.

      The NSA had a court order too. The Honorable Judge R. Stamp never rests.

      Overall the entire tone of the article seems to be: the war's already lost, why fight it?

      The war is lost; most people don't want freedom and sure as hell don't want anyone else to have it. There are no champions for freedom and precious little constituency. This has been the state of the world for most of the existence of the human race; the period beginning with the so-called Enlightenment is aberrant.

    4. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      The article is filled with inaccuracies which all support this person's conclusion that, essentially "ho hum, nothing can be done and nothing will be done".

      Quite the allegation!

      First he cites that...

      Oh. Here I thought you had actually engaged in some deep analysis of the article. That you refer to Lauren Weinstein as a "he" leaves me in doubt.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    5. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the inverse of the McCarthy saga. McCarthy actually identified real communists and was eventually pilloried and disgraced by the public and the powers that be scurried under their rocks. Snowden has identified real traitors in our government and the said traitors are trying to pillory and disgrace Snowden.

    6. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Nobody is going to touch this comment by NoImNotNineVolt? (sigh)
      Well, there are multiple people on Earth named Lauren Weinstein. Unfortunately for you, the one who wrote this article IS a man. Sheesh.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Weinstein_(technologist).
      HE is a respected consultant on technological matters. HE has been for years. You may disagree with what HE says, but HE is still a man.
      The irony of your "I thought you had actually engaged in some deep analysis" comment is overwhelming. Engage in some deep analysis of your own!

      For god's sake, the blog article in question has HIS picture at the top, and HE has a BEARD!!! (AC's head explodes)

    7. Re:Filled with inaccuracies by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      What, you wanted me to RTFA? Many of the comments here refer to Lauren as a female, and the name is typically that of a female. That being said, I feel like a bit of a douche for my previous comment, and it now seems evident that WOOFY GOOFY's comments may not be as uninformed as my first read suggested. My apologies, WOOFY GOOFY, and carry on!

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  36. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The truth is your freedom is an illusion, and the government is doing what all governments always do: arbitrarily deciding when to remove your freedom.

  37. TL;DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't read it, not worth it. Long winded rant about how secret services should act in secret because as long as they fear discovery they will respect people's privacy more. He forgot to add that ignorance is bliss or something.

    1. Re:TL;DR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TL;DR? go back to twitter. You won't be missed.

  38. Definition of insanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The definition of insanity is repeating the same actions while expecting different results.

  39. Maybe Usless by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    I wonder if the lone nut job is not more of a menace that organized terrorists. People like the Unabomber are notoriously disconnected from the system. And people that just run in a building and start blasting are usually isolated souls as well. We are already at the point at which we can no longer afford to catch criminals. The isolated psycopath or sociopath may be the ultimate threat to national security. And these folks are probably not swept up with intensive data gathering. Being able to catch them after the fact is not winning the game at all. And what is worse is that snagging them before the act still costs us all a fortune. As far as economic survival goes we would probably be better off to allow terrorists to wipe out a huge building or two every year and a couple of planes as well as opposed to the expense of trying to prevent such idiotic acts. Even trivial crime when considered in total as to its effect is enough to destroy a nation in time. So now we have the paradox of being able to ctach the more socially active terrorists but dread the expenses of catching and keeping them in the system. It is a no win in every direction.

    1. Re:Maybe Usless by biek · · Score: 1

      The isolated psycopath or sociopath may be the ultimate threat to national security.

      They're not, though. While capable of doing horrible things they are a local threat at best. Nothing they do will have national effects beyond "This thing happened so I, a politician, will sign this legislation that saves my face"

    2. Re:Maybe Usless by swilver · · Score: 1

      Round up all those non-connected people and lock them up. Let's start with all those losers without a Facebook account.. you must have something to hide if you're not regularly posting stupid pictures there.

  40. Proposed amendment to the constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://beta.congress.gov/amendment/113th-congress/house-amendment/412?q={

  41. East vs. West by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When it comes to the Surveillance State, the fundamental difference between the Western "democracies" and the post-Marxist Russian/Chinese model is simply one of honesty.

    The Russians and the Chinese do not, and have never, made any bones about the fact that the state is everywhere, and everyone is being watched. Brutal, demeaning, and unfair? Sure. But at least they're not lying to you.

    Only in the West is there this carnival show of individuals right to privacy, government under public scrutiny/consent, and personal freedom. Respect for the individual is a sham, but a brilliantly-marketed one.

  42. Down the list by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Foreign surveillance ops have never been hidden from view. The embassies are filled with antennas, the satellites and spy ships can be tracked. Any regional effort by other nations can be understood by their lack of global scale. Only the NSA, GCHQ have the ability to reach down into South America, surround Africa, Russia, Asia and the Pacific with vast help in the EU. Aircraft, satellite or a vast network of optical tap needs regional support - very few nations have that.
    The US "domestic context" is unique given the 1970's Church Committee reforms, the Fourth amendment and constant political and legal reassurance about role of the rule of law. Thats the interesting aspect of "one way or another" - can the surveillance program data collected be used in an open US court without the need for the "parallel construction"? Will an entire digital US lifetime be held in a digital lock box removing all freedom of speech, association, contact with the press, public expression of faith, political support, protest, charity work, travel, reading of books/web use... open courts, warrants under oath and cross examination of witnesses...?
    Re the "negative dealings with NSA" - the world can see the desire for a court friendly "lock box" call logs and 3 or more hop tracking.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/28/nsa-files-decoded-hops
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/06/surveillance_lockbox_why_can_the_nsa_search_your_phone_records_without_a.html
    The NSA just seems to be following the UK GCHQ down the "National Criminal Intelligence Service", "Government Telecommunications Advisory Centre" and "Government Technical Assistance Centre" efforts.
    Where could the US end up vs UK attempts at legal telco law reform?
    If the US gov uses color of law to get around the Fourth amendment and everything done becomes not illegal - its a bit like a legal digital Berlin Wall - kind of hard to hide.
    Make it all legal and find a way into open US courts with gov experts/contractors to offer expert decryption, domestic US or global tracking, logs to the courts...a lifetime of phone calls in open court.
    The UK could have told the US where it all ends up in the 1990's - everything interesting goes dark and all the people of interest are warned by 'contacts' in the police, legal system and press.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  43. Power and greed by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Politicians don't stay in politics unless they believe their country has the potential to be great.

    You seriously believe politicians don't stay in politics because of a desire for power, influence and financial gain? Wow. Don't know where you live but your description doesn't sound like many politicians I've ever run across.

    1. Re:Power and greed by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Power and influence to what end, though?

      What do the politicians do to justify their financial gain?

      Sorry, but I'm not cynical enough to think that politicians wake up every morning asking "How can I screw over the world for my own benefit today?". Rather, they try to fix the world as they can, but with so many different definitions of "fix", the only way to get anything accomplished is to have the most influence... and that means wasting time building political favor. To an outsider, it looks like the politician is just collecting power, but to the politician, they're just gathering the necessary alliances to finally be productive.

      Meanwhile, the politicians with a different perspective are also gathering power to fix things their way, and they can't understand why those idiots on the other side can't just back off and let the obviously-better choice pass. They also feel like they're wasting time gathering allies, so when election time rolls around, everyone talks about compromise and bipartisanship. It's not just campaign propaganda. It's a genuine frustration with the general problem that nobody's fix-everything plans are perfect.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Power and greed by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Power and influence to what end, though?

      Those ARE the ends. People who seek political office largely are people for whom power and influence are goal unto themselves. Financial wealth usually plays a role as well but that can be achieved pretty easily with sufficient power and influence.

      What do the politicians do to justify their financial gain?

      Why on earth would they justify it? Until just last year it was absolutely legal for members of Congress to engage in insider trading that would get you and me thrown in jail like Martha Stewart. It is absurdly common for politicians to leave congress FAR wealthier than they entered. This doesn't happen because they are busy serving the greater good.

      I'm not cynical enough to think that politicians wake up every morning asking "How can I screw over the world for my own benefit today?".

      I'm sure they have plenty of rationalizations for their actions but political corruption is hardly uncommon. If you want extreme examples look at former Detroit mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. He's hardly unique but he definitely was FAR more interested in lining his own pockets than serving the electorate.

    3. Re:Power and greed by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      So in other words, you are that cynical. Got it.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    4. Re:Power and greed by celle · · Score: 1

      "you are that cynical."

      Not just him, most of us are that cynical and we have historical proof to back up our cynicism. You try to prove these 'people' (especially in the last thirty years) give a fucking damn about us beyond "what's in it for them". In a country where selfishness is king it should be interesting if believable.

      If most of the public wasn't cynical already you think much of this shit that's going on would have been stopped by the public outcry. It won't because most have already given up.

  44. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Who cares how I get my things, whether it be through the state or myself, as long as I get everything I want out of life. I am not interested in the theory of loving freedom, I am only interested in practice of getting the things I want.

    So you still live with your parents. If not, why did you ever move out?

  45. Other agencies playing catch-up, or retro-legality by Stolpskott · · Score: 1

    The two scenarios where I see this being a benefit for the surveillance and intelligence-gathering community is that:
    (a) Other alphabet soup agencies in the US and abroad will get an even better idea of what the NSA are gathering, and they will then push even harder for similar capabilities within their domestic spheres to give them more trading options with NSA and others, "because if the NSA needs this information, then so do we" and
    (b) The scrambling by pro-surveillance lobbyists and lawmakers to say that this is legal, followed by the judicial branch issuing judgements on this "grey area" of the law in conflicting and contradictory rulings, to the point where the lawmakers again need to step in with a new law that "clarifies" the current situation.

    Although the fact that I can even call this a "grey area" is frankly laughable. While I am sure the collective efforts of the judiciary ruling on cases which impinge on Constitutional issues of the last 100 years have not been a co-ordinated campaign to weaken and obviate the Consitution, the end result is that the Constitution is no longer a shield for the people protecting them from Federal Government and limiting the reach of those in power. It now has so many holes in it that it is barely a safety net" between the two groups - it stops most of the baseballs thrown at it, but bullets will easily find the holes.
    Note: The previous comment is not intended to be a suggestion that the people of the United States of America should round up the politicians, lobbyists, lawyers and judges and shoot them.

    Having said that, as bad as the USofA has become, it is still possible to criticize the US Government in this way without being dragged away to re-education classes or prison camps. Mostly... so far.

  46. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's all this crap about Librarians????

  47. Am I the only one who sees this differently? by gallondr00nk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Every story on Slashdot about the NSA revelations has been followed by a deluge of comments who for the most part been extremely pessimistic, sprinkled with doses of paranoia that almost border on hysteria. All I seem to read now is that it won't make any difference, we're stuck in this forever, "they" won't let us have our liberty back, &c. &c. ad nauseum.

    Whether the leaks are 100% accurate or not (and I can't tell either way), something monumental has happened this year. I would tentatively suggest that we're finally seeing the edifice fall, not just of surveillance, but of our entire socio-economic system. These are the sort of paper cuts that can eventually topple an entire way of thinking.

    The two are linked. The NSA does not live in a vacuum, but as a result of economic and social policies that have consolidated power and influence in the hands of a few people.

    A panopticon cannot survive in the same way our winner-takes-all-and-debt-for-the-rest neoliberal economic system cannot survive. Both rely on holding all the cards, forever. It took one contractor to snatch the deck with Snowden, and whether other /. posters believe it or not, it will change things. In the last five years, we've seen the inevitable failure of our lunatic economic decisions. Things are actually changing, and changing quickly.

    The only question is what do we look to do next?

    We aren't beholden to continue the way things are forever. There is no obligation to constantly think within the same ridiculous boxes, to grant power to the same shitty people. We can look to the future and actually try and level the playing field. A society where power and money are not amassed in such obscene quantities would scarcely be able to enable the sort of panopticon people are now afraid of.

    It is evident that agencies that have access to so many resources cannot help but abuse them. Perhaps now is the time to think of something new, not communism or capitalism or even anarchism, but a way of preserving the pieces of our society that we want and discarding the abuses.

    This is *not* the only way things can be, no more than absolute monarchy, slavery or feudalism were in the past.

    Rather than simply being afraid, I'd rather put my energy into believing, rightly or wrongly, that we can have something better in the future.

    1. Re:Am I the only one who sees this differently? by davecb · · Score: 1

      No, you're seeing a combination of astroturfing and genuinely dispirited people.

      When one wants to defeat a people, first one makes them afraid, and second, despairing of justice ever being done. Anything that increases despair is pushed by the parties trying to prevent public outrage.

      The proper response to a plague of vampires isn't building castles, it's a mob of farmers with pitchforks and torches (;-))

      --dave
      It's zombies where you build castles

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
  48. I'm waiting for the brain implants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In order to protect against terrorism, each person within the US borders except politicians and the extremely wealthy will be required to have a brain implant which monitors their thoughts and immediately dole out the proper punishment if the wrong thought is detected. For example, not thinking that the USA the greatest most prosperous nation on earth where everyone is free, paid what they are worth and every poor person has the ability to become mega rich if they only worked hard enough is punishable by a day long migraine headache induced by the device. If a person were to go further and were to think about doing something that might change their conditions, like forming a union, protesting, or creating a third political party, the device will automatically brand the person a terrorist and activate a small pyrotechnic charge within it, blowing the head apart instantly killing them.

    Of course some people might have a problem with this extrajudicial brain monitoring, punishment, and murder. However the Supreme Court will rule...

      "In sum, the balance of the State's interest in preventing terrorism, the extent to which this system can reasonably be said to advance that interest, and the degree of intrusion upon individual citizens who are briefly or permanently punished, weighs in favor of the state program. We therefore hold that it is consistent with the Fourth and Sixth Amendments."

    Remember the slippery slope began when the Supreme Court ruled that sobriety checkpoints were constitutional. The Fourth Amendment can be completely overruled when it is in the State's interest. This is also why all NSA monitoring will be found constitutional.

  49. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by jabuzz · · Score: 1

    Seems to depend where you live. Here in England we have only had one revolution in the best 947 years, and it lasted less than 12 years before we invited the lot we had thrown out back.

  50. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Republicans voted for the patriot act, Democrats voted to keep it. If you're against big brother watching your every move, you must therefore be a Libertarian.

  51. Re: Untouchables by davecb · · Score: 1

    This also applies to nominally-elected legislators who gerrymander their district boundaries to create lots of "safe" districts for one party or another. That makes them hard to defeat, and in return they help the opposing party gerrymander their district boundaries.

    This is bad for the voters, of course: they want the choice of two candidates, and the option to throw the incumbent out if he or she gets too corrupt.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  52. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Umm... no. We were never invited back, and we wouldn't have come back anyway. There's too much of a fundamental difference in our attitudes toward authority, and it shows in how laws have been structured, how the public reacts to automated surveillance, and just in general reactions to personal rights abuses.

    The NSA got caught outright. The GCHQ only got caught by associating with the NSA.

  53. A Given by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama nor the next President, the current members of Congress and the Federal Court System and not the remainder of the Unelected Government of the USA will willing give up or abandon NSA.

    The only way to combat Obama, his next, Congress, the Courts, the Unelected Government is to do to them what NSA does to the other citizens of the USA and sell their dirt to the highest bedder.

    Giving the Telecom impunity was a move by President Bush to hid the fact that what NSA does IS legal and anybody else can do the same.

    The bigger problem is, "Is the NSA effective in stopping acts of terror?" Answer: NO. Question: is NSA in the "Terror Detecting or Terror Stopping" business? Answer: NO. NSA's business model is Domestic Espionage (use to he Foreign Espionage but business in dying in that market) against US citizens who are not Federal employees. Ever see Dianne Feinstein hauled into an interrogation about her and her husband's financial dealings with companies in Iran? Never will because she and hubby are designated OFF LIMITS. Why? They are among the "Trusted."

    Now isn't that just so sweet.

  54. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps that's because the other revolutions have been against England.

  55. Re: Untouchables by davester666 · · Score: 1

    no, they don't want the choice of two candidates, particularly when it is a choice between 1 of the 2 subgroups of the ruling party.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  56. Bulltwacky! ! by sgt_doom · · Score: 2

    Unintended consequences my barbarously hard butt!

    Full spectrume domination of surveillance is their endgame, douchetard!

    Never trust anyone who suggests "nobody could have foreseen" and "unintended consequences" --- that is like suggesting that the Rockefellers (David and Nelson) never foresaw the enormous hurt they would be putting on American workers when Nelson, in his appointments during the Eisenhower administration, compromised the organization forms of Ex-Im Bank, AID, etc., to allow them to be circumvented and foreign aid used to build foreign factories and processing facilities which American jobs could then be offshored to (this was changed during President Kennedy's administration, but again flipped back when Johnson took office after JFK's assassination). Next, the Rockefellers had that corporate tax break instituted everytime an American job was offshored, still in effect to this very day!

    Next, David Rockefeller founded Council of the Americas, lobbying on behalf of the passage of NAFTA.

    David Rockefeller and his stooge, Peter G. Peterson, founded the Peterson Institute for International Economics (usually just referred to as the "Peterson Institute") one of whose main objectives was the offshoring of as many American jobs as possible.
    Etc., etc., etc. ......

  57. Only if we let them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only if you dumb cocksuckers let them - but humanity has a long rich history of letting those in power fuck them in the ass oh so passively - so we'll see

  58. Intel Ignores Leads for Chatter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are they tapping our phones, e-mails, and monitoring our web behavior? All they are getting is overloaded with useless chatter. In the mean time they missed warnings about 9/11:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/18/us/traces-of-terrorism-the-warnings-fbi-knew-for-years-about-terror-pilot-training.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    They also missed warnings about the Boston Bombers:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/26/us/russia-told-us-bomb-suspect-was-radical-islamist.html?_r=0

    They even ignored a warning about the underwear bomber who failed over Detroit:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/26/airline.attack/

    Seems to me that they need to turn their computers off, get off of their asses, and do some real work.

  59. Intel Agencies Ignore Real Leads for Chatter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are they tapping our phones, e-mails, and monitoring our web behavior? All they are getting is overloaded with useless chatter. In the mean time they missed warnings about 9/11:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/18/us/traces-of-terrorism-the-warnings-fbi-knew-for-years-about-terror-pilot-training.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

    They also missed warnings about the Boston Bombers:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/26/us/russia-told-us-bomb-suspect-was-radical-islamist.html?_r=0

    They even ignored a warning about the underwear bomber who failed over Detroit:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/26/airline.attack/

    Seems to me that they need to turn their computers off, get off of their asses, and do some real detective work.

  60. Uh, who is this person and why should I care? by ReekRend · · Score: 1

    As far as I can tell this is just someone's blog, with a self-inflated resume. When I got to the part about repressive regimes executing "their Snowdens" with no publicity, I became certain that he's not very smart, since Snowden fled the U.S. before publishing (and we're all pretty sure he would have met with an accident if he had stayed here). This guy is very wordy to try and sound like he has important things to say, but if you read between the lines he doesn't. Every couple of paragraphs I'd stop and think "what did I just read... oh, nothing."

  61. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're only interested in getting things you want no matter how and you call others narcissists?

  62. Re:Libertarians are full of crap. by tepples · · Score: 1

    Parents don't always give one what one wants, especially if parents are unwilling to move closer to any of the cities that demand the sort of labor for which one has been trained. For example, it's hard to act on Broadway and live with one's parents if one's parents refuse to move to New York.