Ford Will Demo Solar-Charged Car At CES

Hope it doesn't melt the car! by DaTrueDave · 2014-01-02 07:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

Stack of pennies reduced to molten nickel by fresnal lens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcL7s9aX494

Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Velox_SwiftFox · 2014-01-02 07:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

Zinc. Melting nickel takes a little more.
Re: Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Plazmid · 2014-01-02 07:58 · Score: 1

First, those pennies aren't made of nickel, they're made of copper coated zinc.
Second, pennies don't melt when exposed to a fresnel lens of that size, they VAPORIZE! Or at least the zinc does anyway
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by BasilBrush · 2014-01-02 08:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

Concept cars are never manufactured. But this concept is more ridiculous than most.
Even if the car isn't melted, it's going to be obscenely hot to get in after a summer day's charging. Even if you can, you'll need most of the stored solar power to run air-conditioning.
Besides, cars are generally driven during the day, and parked at home at night, when the sun isn't shining.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by mwvdlee · 2014-01-02 08:06 · Score: 2

The solar power captured by the fresnel lens wouldn't need to be very focused, as there's a rather large solar panel are and if the solar panel is efficient enough, is shouldn't let much heat through.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by FishTankX · 2014-01-02 08:29 · Score: 2

The obvious way around this is to have a heat exchanger under the solar panels, then use some energy to cool the solar panels through the radiator. A car's radiator should be able to handle ~2kw incoming heat load, with just a pump. It would help improve efficency as well, since solar panels charge better when they're cool.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-02 08:31 · Score: 1

It won't let much light through, but solar panels are dark and they get hot. They'll need some really good insulation under that panel to keep the interior from heating up when its under the lens. Better have a good & efficient AC unit in there.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by danlip · 2014-01-02 08:43 · Score: 1

I don't know what you mean by "efficient enough", but typically solar PV is around 20% efficient or less. So most of the light is probably convert to heat.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by BasilBrush · 2014-01-02 09:01 · Score: 1

They are saying that the lens provides for 10 times as much solar power. Well roughly speaking that means about 10 times as much heat concentrated on the car too. PV cells are not efficient enough to reduce that heat much.
And if it's not focussed that much, then it is concentrating light on the windows and body work, as well as the PV panels.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by ShanghaiBill · 2014-01-02 09:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

The obvious way around this is to have a heat exchanger under the solar panels
A more obvious way around it is to have the panels feed their power into the grid, so that they can be productive whether the car is in the carport or not. Then charge the car from the grid so it can still be charged at night, on cloudy days, or when parked somewhere else.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by phantomfive · 2014-01-02 10:28 · Score: 1

drinkypoo [slashdot.org] is a disgusting, smelly, fat slob. He has never had sex and he still lives with his mother.
No one cares. On the internet, it only matters how you write and the quality of your ideas. Seriously, who cares what he looks like? That's juvenile.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2014-01-02 10:52 · Score: 2

OR, the temperature was so high that the zinc pennies were melted into nickel.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by DaTrueDave · 2014-01-02 11:08 · Score: 1

But there were five of them...
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by cheater512 · 2014-01-02 12:24 · Score: 1

Plus any idiot who has walked outside knows that the sun radiates heat in addition to visible light.
This concept would understandably cause confusion for Slashdot readers. Anything 'outside' might as well be in a different country for them.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by blindseer · 2014-01-02 13:06 · Score: 1

That's great so long as you have grid power where you park your car. Believe it or not but there are still places on this Earth where an electrical outlet is more than ten feet away.
Also, that solar panel would be just as productive on the car as on someone's roof. That is unless the car happens to have to drive through a lot of long tunnels. I suppose parking the car in a garage would destroy the gains of having a solar panel on the roof but then if someone buys a solar charging car and parks it in a garage all day just means that they aren't very smart.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by ShanghaiBill · 2014-01-02 16:27 · Score: 1

Also, that solar panel would be just as productive on the car as on someone's roof.
Not true. If the car leaves the carport the productivity of the panel drops by a factor of ten, because the sunlight is no longer focused by the fresnel lens.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by symbolset · 2014-01-02 17:20 · Score: 1

In Seattle on a nice day that might almost be enough light to read by.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by FishTankX · 2014-01-02 17:46 · Score: 1

Well actually what I see as the killer app for this is being able to run climate control in your vehicle and not having to worry about draining your batteries. Being able to run 300w AC power, while not spectacular, could keep you from roasting potentially. Especially if you put reflective panels in your windows when you leave.
Speaking of which, why has no car manufacturer bothered to make a car that can automatically hoist up a window sized aluminum plate with your windows when you park? Hmm...
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Tatarize · 2014-01-02 22:20 · Score: 1

You know, you can filter light right. The visual light spectrum isn't very hot. You can filter out the IR and the UV which tends to become IR after hitting something at the lens. You only need to let through the narrow spectrum the panel actually uses. Doing so would actually make it be about as cool as the shade.
And we aren't talking about anything fancy. Even if you still had to charge it, it would be kind of awesome to run out of power but have enough to make it home after a few hours of sun. And it isn't as if nothing on your roof is somehow a more useful use of that area. In fact, it seems a pretty obvious no-brainer. A place where DC current is going to become easy fuel for basically the cost of a solar panel.
You don't really need the silly lens. A day worth of light is going to buy you five miles without lenses or anything fancy. And it's generally not going to cost you anything beyond the initial panel. If you only drove the thing once a week or something like that you'd never need to charge it or buy gas or anything.
The idea that taking the exact same sort of stuff we already have and slapping a solar panel on the roof where there is otherwise just metal is "more ridiculous than most" concept car ideas, is absurd. I'd be shocked if things didn't have this within a few years. It's just a solar panel on the car's roof.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Tatarize · 2014-01-02 22:37 · Score: 1

Yeah, slapping a solar panel on the roof seems like it would be easy and great. But, the whole special car port thing seems like a pain in the ass. Where am I suppose to put my special car port? And why don't I just have a solar panel and lens charge up some batteries and then use that power. The solar panel on the roof is great, the special nonsense carport seems like it would be mostly pointless.
It seems like the easiest bit is just to have the car have a panel on the roof, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by BasilBrush · 2014-01-03 05:34 · Score: 1

The idea to filter the light is a good one, thanks. However...

The idea that taking the exact same sort of stuff we already have and slapping a solar panel on the roof where there is otherwise just metal is "more ridiculous than most" concept car ideas, is absurd.
But that clearly was not the idea that I called more ridiculous than most. It was the magnifying car port that I called ridiculous, for 2 reasons, only one of which you partially addressed.
Re:Hope it doesn't melt the car! by Tatarize · 2014-01-03 08:53 · Score: 1

I'd be shocked to see the carport ever built. I'd be shocked not to see the solar panel on the roof of some next gen cars.

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Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-02 07:52 · Score: 1

I wonder how many fires this sucker is going to start?

Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by icebike · 2014-01-02 08:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

I wonder how many people are going to actually install the car-port? Who is going to fight the zoning issues, get building permits, put up with an ugly structure, and a car that moves by itself to stay in the Fresnel lens sweet spot? How many bikes, toys, and other associated back yard objects get run over?
I suppose the canopy could slide a cover over the lens when the car is absent.
But who wants to climb into an 800 degree car, and spend half the power gained running air conditioning units to cool it down?

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by cusco · 2014-01-02 08:17 · Score: 1

I think when the car is gone the carport could double as an industrial oven.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mlts · 2014-01-02 08:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have a few things to add as well:
Solar PV cells don't work well when they get hot, which is why we don't see lens technology on panels unless it is a very small one.
Other than the no-plug aspect, why even bother with this? Instead, make a carport or pole barn, plop some solar panels on that, connect those to an inverter or charge controller, and plug that into the vehicle. It would gain more electricity overall that can be used for the vehicle compared to a Frenel lens series, and it won't fry the cat when he or she plops down by the car for an afternoon nap and the sunbeam shifts, or the vehicle moves back and Pirelli processes Fluffy.
Even better, since the vehicle is likely at an office, add a battery bank. Then, the vehicle can charge a night via just the stored electricity, or a combination of that and mains power.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by PRMan · 2014-01-02 08:38 · Score: 1

won't fry the cat
That's not a bug, it's a feature! How else do I keep the neighbor's cat off my paint job?

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by CubicleZombie · 2014-01-02 08:43 · Score: 2

I wonder how many people are going to actually install the car-port?
Most people who buy hybrids do it so they can drive solo in the commuter lane, so I expect this car will spend its entire life running off its gasoline backup engine.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by roc97007 · 2014-01-02 08:44 · Score: 1

> and it won't fry the cat when he or she plops down by the car for an afternoon nap and the sunbeam shifts,
Although, that would be really funny.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by CaptainLard · 2014-01-02 08:48 · Score: 1

Perhaps, over the several year development cycle, ford engineers will also realize the issues you've brought up in your 30 second analysis and potentially even address some of them before/if they bring it to market.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-02 08:52 · Score: 2

Other than the no-plug aspect, why even bother with this?
Simple.
Driving electric cars now isn't like a lot of people think. You get in your car with your ~80 mile range, and you just go about your day. When you happen to park where there's a public charger, you top off while you're in the grocery store or watching a movie. Your current ~80 mile range either gets pushed back up to 80, or you get a few miles added onto it. You do not drive from charger to charger.
Having a solar panel on the roof does exactly what the chargers littered around town do -- they extend your mileage by a tiny bit while you go about your day.
The report is vague on details, but this might give the average electric-only driver an extra mile or so for every hour in the sun.
[n.b. I'm a Leaf owner.]
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by icebike · 2014-01-02 09:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

You do not drive from charger to charger.
As a leaf owner, you know this isn't true.
You know you never get into your car without a thought about where your next charger is, you avoid any trips that even put you close to your maximum range. Your mind is very much concerned with where chargers are.
And I'd bet you have access to another gas powered car which you use for anything even close to your maximum range.

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Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by icebike · 2014-01-02 09:08 · Score: 1

Like Chevy did with the Volt, where the still lose money on every single sale, and most users still run on its gas engine 80% of the time.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by TWiTfan · 2014-01-02 09:19 · Score: 1

I'm more worried about it incinerating my dog.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by LWATCDR · 2014-01-02 10:01 · Score: 1

They left out that the extra charging would only be at peak. The sun does move so unless you have a tracking mirror you will have the spot moving all over the place.
Oh Ford this is must the 21st century version of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-02 10:06 · Score: 5, Informative

As a leaf owner, you know this isn't true.
There's 500+ chargers in my city. I know that in nearly 7,000 miles of electric driving that I've never been more than 5 miles away from a charger. [To be precise, I was, by Google Maps, 5.1 miles away from a charger on Christmas day, when visiting my folks in their retirement community.] I drive places, and I plug in when a public charger is convenient. I took a look at where I drove before I made my decision to get one - and I found that my needs were served by the range offered plus some occasional mileage bumps by public chargers.
There's a week or two after you get your Leaf that you have range anxiety. Once you get to the end of those first few weeks without running out of electricity, you know that unless you're going somewhere strange, your 80 mile range (plus occasional bumps from public chargers) gets the job done.
In-city, 35-mph driving gets you way more than 80, but my real-world, mostly-freeway gets me about 84 -- 3.9miles per kWh.]

And I'd bet you have access to another gas powered car which you use for anything even close to your maximum range.
I drove to Albuquerque last month. I rented a car.
Look: Some people drive in places and in ways where a Leaf isn't a practical vehicle for them. They shouldn't buy one. I'm not one of those people.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by HornWumpus · 2014-01-02 11:38 · Score: 1

Not funny, stupid.
Parabolic reflectors have fixed focus points.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by HornWumpus · 2014-01-02 11:41 · Score: 1

There will also be loss of range from the added weight and possibly aero drag associated with the panel and support circuits. Nothing is free.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by HornWumpus · 2014-01-02 11:43 · Score: 1

Or perhaps this is a car show prototype that will never see production.
The Engineers know it's a bad idea, but it's still great marketing.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-02 12:24 · Score: 1

Sure.
Don't drive 140,000 miles with a penny in your ash tray.
The article is still pretty sparse on details. The solar on a Prius, for example, just powers ancillary systems, and obviously has *some* cost over just not having one.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by Anrego · 2014-01-02 14:35 · Score: 1

It's actually amazing how seemingly obvious stuff can get missed on these kinds of large multi-year projects and huge teams of reasonably smart people.
Sometimes momentum causes things to plow right through logic. Anyone who has worked on a large project for a big company has probably seen this.
I don't have a specific opinion in this case, but I guess my point is not to assume that a huge team of competent people can't collectively make a really big and obvious mistake. History is loaded with products that sat on shelves while everyone asked "why the hell did they think anyone would buy that!".
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by bitingduck · 2014-01-02 14:36 · Score: 1

Other than the no-plug aspect, why even bother with this? Instead, make a carport or pole barn, plop some solar panels on that, connect those to an inverter or charge controller, and plug that into the vehicle. It would gain more electricity overall that can be used for the vehicle compared to a Frenel lens series, and it won't fry the cat when he or she plops down by the car for an afternoon nap and the sunbeam shifts, or the vehicle moves back and Pirelli processes Fluffy.
I have a colleague who has two electric cars (a Leaf and a RAV 4) and does this with the solar panels on his roof. The Fresnel lens saves a little conversion loss, but at a reduction of system availability for power production as well.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by bitingduck · 2014-01-02 14:40 · Score: 1

Most people who buy hybrids do it so they can drive solo in the commuter lane, so I expect this car will spend its entire life running off its gasoline backup engine.
That expired in California a few years ago. Now you have to have a full electric to drive solo in the carpool lane, or pay a few bucks via transponder if you're on one of the roads that allows that.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by Tatarize · 2014-01-02 22:42 · Score: 1

Yeah, and the option to run out of juice and so you leave your car in the lot and go see a movie then drive to the charging station seems pretty nice.

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-03 04:50 · Score: 1

Sure, electric cars can run out of juice.
....but the electric charging station is at the movie theater, and it grants you free front row parking, until either (a) too many people have electric cars, or (b) some dick with an F150 parked in it.
While going about your normal driving life, you get chances to top off -- often for free. [It's an incentive for the business, or mall, or company...]
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by MooseMiester · 2014-01-04 03:30 · Score: 1

80 mile range? Are you sure about that? Nissan claims far less than this....

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Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-06 05:22 · Score: 1

My personal number is a little higher than 80, and it includes a lot of freeway driving. I get 3.9 miles per kilowatt hour with a 22 kilowatt battery - which is 85.8.
If I'm driving almost exclusively freeway, 70 is much more realistic.
Here's a pretty good pair of charts of a leaf's potential mileage at different speeds with 100% battery, and another with "worn" 93% battery:
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G100.pdf
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35284720/postfiles/leafcharts/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G93.pdf
A side story: One day I drove to work, and then planned on picking up my wife from the airport on the way home. I work 35 miles from home, so this was pretty much the extent of my no-charge mostly-freeway range. My wife's plane was delayed, so I decided to eat dinner next to the office where there was a free charger. Her flight was further and further delayed, so I visited a book store, did some more shopping, etc. By the time my wife's was actually inbound, I had a full charge, but still had 35-40 minutes to make the 20-mile drive to the airport without any traffic. Now bored senseless waiting for my wife, I left the charger with an estimated 88 miles on the car -- a magic estimate which must be based on both recent and overall driving history. By the time I drove 20 miles through town on 35mph streets, I had an estimated 101 remaining before the mileage estimates caught up with my battery usage and I started dropping from 101 back into the 90's.
A little old lady driving to church can easily get 100+ on a charge.
Leadfooted freeway maniacs can only get 70 or so.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by mythosaz · 2014-01-06 08:48 · Score: 1

Arizona.
While discussing our Leaf with the family of some friends (in town for the holidays), I was shocked to learn that in their part of the world, there were exactly 10 chargers, of which 8 were located in the 8 nearby Nissan dealerships -- so deployment of public chargers is certainly regional. [They were from Alabama, for whatever that's worth.] Detroit appears to have a good collection of public chargers, but I don't know the area well enough to comment more than what http://plugshare.com/ tells me.
We've got 500+ chargers in Phoenix, and it's growing every day, but there's exactly one "real" charger in Flagstaff (150 north of Phoenix, at the Nissan dealer), and no real chargers in Kingman (on the way to Vegas). [There are, however, half a dozen 220 "dryer" plugs at all of the RV parks available for a fee in Kingman.]
If you're into this sort of thing, there's also a network of home chargers who share. Most your granola eating, tree hugging type, I suppose :)
Our leaf was just a car that made sense for the way we do some of our family driving.
Re:Do not stare at Fresnel with remaining eye by MooseMiester · 2014-01-07 03:28 · Score: 1

Thanks. I graduated from NAU in '79, was there in the fall. Central/Northern Arizona is a really nice area. I was stunned at the growth in Sedona - thrilled that Jerome had remained about the same.

I have yet to see a single Leaf in Detroit - or an advertised charging station. I go there for client meetings a dozen or so times a month. There are probably several in Ann Arbor.

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Murphy was an optimist

(tsk tsk tsk) The poor puddy tat... by RevWaldo · 2014-01-02 07:59 · Score: 1

...he climb on da car roof, go BOOM!

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Re:(tsk tsk tsk) The poor puddy tat... by WillAffleckUW · 2014-01-02 08:06 · Score: 2

Well, you have to admit, the cat did want a warm place to lie on ...

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Re:(tsk tsk tsk) The poor puddy tat... by Plazmid · 2014-01-02 08:47 · Score: 1

So the question we all want to know is can this actually happen?
Will a bird/cat/rodent be fried when they enter the beam?
Well we know the car roof has an area of 1.5 square meters and the lens provides 10 times the energy that would fall on the car roof. Using standard insolation of 1000 watts/m^2, we can deduce that the solar radiation flux on the car after the lens is 10000 watts/m^2.
So is this enough to fry a cat? The answer is.... yes, but it wouldn't happen instantly! According to wolfram alpha 10000 watts/m^2 is 10 times the radiation flux necessary to cause harm to biological tissue!
This is also in the range to singe holes in black pieces of paper!
Worst case, our poor puddy cat will probably make it out with some singed fur, but should otherwise be all right!

Depends on how long your commute is by WillAffleckUW · 2014-01-02 08:05 · Score: 1

If you drive less than 10 miles to get to work, as most of my relatives do, you could get a full charge by the end of the day, in Seattle or Santa Barbara, on a typical day.

If you drive to work in LA where it takes more than an hour to get to or from work, you'd want to plug in.

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Re:Depends on how long your commute is by Art+Challenor · 2014-01-02 08:13 · Score: 2

If you drive to work in LA where it takes more than an hour to get to or from work, you'd want to plug in.
Why would you need to charge if after driving 2 miles?
Re:Depends on how long your commute is by WillAffleckUW · 2014-01-02 08:18 · Score: 1

Why would you need to charge if after driving 2 miles?
My cousin in West Seattle drives his Chevy Volt to work and plugs it in when he gets to work. But sometimes he goes to a park nearby, so it might be useful to have a full charge after.
Some people like to have the maximum range when they leave work. This would also help if you had to wait in a ferry line on one of the islands - it would charge up while you waited.

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Re:Depends on how long your commute is by funwithBSD · 2014-01-02 08:30 · Score: 1

The radio drained the battery

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Re:Depends on how long your commute is by sunderland56 · 2014-01-02 08:33 · Score: 1

This would also help if you had to wait in a ferry line
I think you missed the point - if you're stopped in traffic, or stopped in a queue, an electric car should consume zero power. (Or essentially zero - small draw for the radio/instruments and brake lights, but nothing for forward motion, since you're not moving).
So a 2-mile commute should consume pretty much the same battery power, no matter if those two miles took you 2 minutes or 2 hours to travel.
Re:Depends on how long your commute is by WillAffleckUW · 2014-01-02 08:47 · Score: 1

Most of the people who live in Seattle that I know don't wait in long lineups while driving - we tend not to use the freeways, those are for suburbanites.
I suppose if I had to sit in stuck traffic on the I-90 or SR-520 bridge this might be a concern, but the question was about why I would need to charge after driving 2 miles. Since I've lived here for a few decades, I rarely go on routes that sit and do nothing.
Regardless, this would extend your range if you do spend most of the time not moving, even if you use air conditioning (we mostly just use heaters in Seattle, and rarely use air conditioning), preferring to roll down the windows and enjoy the sun instead.
Think of it as a booster pack, depending on what type of commute you have. If it's mostly sitting stuck in an unmoving grid, you might not even have to charge up at your destination, but if it's one where you spend most of the time in motion, you probably could hope to recharge only part while at work, if you live a fair distance away.

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Re:Depends on how long your commute is by mythosaz · 2014-01-02 08:55 · Score: 1

You mean the small 12v battery that most of these cars have?
Re:Depends on how long your commute is by Art+Challenor · 2014-01-02 09:46 · Score: 1

Hadn't thought of that. In my case it would be the GPS telling me that there is a faster route right before it tells me there is another 25 minute delay.
Re:Depends on how long your commute is by viperidaenz · 2014-01-02 12:54 · Score: 1

.... no matter how much aircon or heating you use?
Re:Depends on how long your commute is by bitingduck · 2014-01-02 14:53 · Score: 1

If you drive to work in LA where it takes more than an hour to get to or from work, you'd want to plug in.
Why would you need to charge if after driving 2 miles?
You think you're joking...
I have to drive to work (about 35 miles each way) temporarily in LA, and it's about 1.5 hours there, 1.5 to 2 hours home. I just got a Cmax hybrid (with the little battery, not the Energi) and because I live in the San Gabriel Valley I can almost EV all the way to DTLA (it's all downhill) and get there with a full charge. It can easily take 45 minutes to an hour to do the ~10 miles or so to get to and through DTLA. After that it's much quicker. The gas motor runs on the way home though.
My regular commute, when I get back to it, is 4.5 miles each way on a bike.

Good to have around by Animats · 2014-01-02 08:06 · Score: 1

It's good to have solar-powered things spread around, in case of major power grid problems. As LED street lights are installed, some of them should be solar powered. Especially in areas with a history of floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

Re:Good to have around by silas_moeckel · 2014-01-02 08:23 · Score: 1

Would it not be simpler to stop installing street lights outside of high pedestrian areas and intersections? Streetlights cost significant amounts of money while hurting drivers night vision and directly polluting the night sky.

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Re:Good to have around by Em+Adespoton · 2014-01-02 09:28 · Score: 1

Would it not be simpler to stop installing street lights outside of high pedestrian areas and intersections? Streetlights cost significant amounts of money while hurting drivers night vision and directly polluting the night sky.
I saw some very nifty motion-sensitive streetlights once; they were also directed and only flooded the sidewalks, not the roadway. Lots of implications with that design; still not sure whether it's better or worse for pedestrian safety. Definitely better for energy usage though.
Re:Good to have around by evilviper · 2014-01-02 19:59 · Score: 1

As LED street lights are installed, some of them should be solar powered
You're talking about major maintenance and extra up-front costs, as workers have to drive around, non-stop, constantly replacing failing (SLA) batteries. They last only a few years, and spread across thousands of street lights, you'd be changing several every single day.

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Re:In terms of the overall system by arbiterxero · 2014-01-02 08:07 · Score: 1

then you can only half go there.

concept cars .. by savuporo · 2014-01-02 08:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

There is a parallel universe of concept cars somewhere, where you can drive a microturbine powered Jaguar, solar charged Ford, Mitsubishi EVO with in-wheel motors and ATTESA-like control, there are probably a bunch of nuclear powered Ford Nucleons whizzing about as well, and everyone swaps batteries in project Better Places station like there is no tomorrow. The logo of Shell is largely replaced by Duracell in cityscapes.

Meanwhile in the real world, we can all buy a Tesla Model S for a low starting price of cool $70K or thereabouts and hope they install a fast charger somewhere close by. And of course, wait in line.

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Re:concept cars .. by roc97007 · 2014-01-02 08:46 · Score: 1

Plus, the cars fly, airplanes are nuclear powered and we have a colony on the moon.

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Re:concept cars .. by Plazmid · 2014-01-02 09:00 · Score: 1

This ignores the point of concept cars. Those solar panels aren't generating power so much as hype.
Re:concept cars .. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-02 09:11 · Score: 1

Reminds me. I must have my robot wife take my jetpack to the cleaners, the darn ozone is so thick it's staining the chrome accents.
Re:concept cars .. by timeOday · 2014-01-02 10:46 · Score: 1

But but to be fair, you can also buy a new EV for less than the average price of a new car, which is a genuinely new situation. (Nissan Leaf base price is $28k, average new car price is $31K).
Re:concept cars .. by savuporo · 2014-01-02 11:23 · Score: 1

I don't remember Nissan tooling around car shows showing off one useless and impractical EV concept after another before they unveiled Leaf in pretty much in it's production configuration.

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Re:concept cars .. by AmiMoJo · 2014-01-02 19:42 · Score: 1

You can charge EVs from normal outlets or non-ultra-fast chargers. With over 200 miles range it isn't much of an issue in the real world.

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Re:In terms of the overall system by icebike · 2014-01-02 08:12 · Score: 1

My thoughts exactly.
All six people who actually want to put up this monstrosity in their yard will be have their fire insurance go up, their neighbors bitching, their zoning commission objecting and the fire marshal knocking on their door.

It looks to me that Ford was trying strenuously to avoid collection and storage systems that might integrate into existing buildings.

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Put the panels on the canopy! by beltsbear · 2014-01-02 08:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why put them on the car? Put 10x the panels on the canopy and run a WIRE to the car to charge it. The panels could go to the grid if the car is not present. The weight savings will help the car, they will be cheaper panels for the wattage on the canopy and you can have a real amount of them. Panels on top of the car will often be wasted being covered by trees, parking garages and being at a less then optimum angle.

Re:Put the panels on the canopy! by myrdos2 · 2014-01-02 08:29 · Score: 2

Because this is a PR stunt.
Re:Put the panels on the canopy! by devjoe · 2014-01-02 08:45 · Score: 1

Your idea will also help people who commute to work, whose cars will not BE under the canopy during most of the daylight hours.
Re:Put the panels on the canopy! by roc97007 · 2014-01-02 08:48 · Score: 1

Because this is a PR stunt.
It would be even cooler if they smoked the household cat in the process. I might see that as a feature. (My wife puts out food for strays, and the house is regularly mobbed by cats and raccoons, who sometimes fight with each other. It's one of those things where you go "yes, dear" and try not to listen to the noise.)

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Re:Put the panels on the canopy! by AmiMoJo · 2014-01-02 19:40 · Score: 1

What you describe is basically a Tesla Supercharger. Looks like a petrol station and the roof is coveted in panels.

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Why on the car? by ThurstonMoore · 2014-01-02 08:19 · Score: 2

Wouldn't it be better to just build the solar cell into the carport so it can charge a battery all day while the car is driving around, then plug the car into the carport to be charged by the battery at night?

Re:Why on the car? by roc97007 · 2014-01-02 08:49 · Score: 1

Wouldn't it be better to just build the solar cell into the carport so it can charge a battery all day while the car is driving around, then plug the car into the carport to be charged by the battery at night?
Because then it wouldn't be a solar powered car. I mean, it technically would, but it wouldn't *look like* a solar powered car.

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Why not make solar cells part of the carport? by iamacat · 2014-01-02 08:24 · Score: 1

If they are not useful for charging on the go, it's dead weight that hurts efficiency. Also I am sure the car gets very hot from concentrated solar power.

Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-02 08:28 · Score: 1

Not quite 10 times, if it is 10 times the amount of light that would normally hit a horizontal panel, mirrors that track the sun through different angles will provide a longer exposure time as well as increase area. Maybe you could do it with 5-7 times the area. However, the article shows the car 'moving' during the day to stay in the focal point. If this is true, then it would only work on driveways that are oriented in the right direction, and the effectiveness would be greatly diminished at certain times of the year. So you might get a full charge on long summer day, but don't expect it in winter.

Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by MindStalker · 2014-01-02 08:30 · Score: 1

Didn't read the headline or article correctly did you? The car will come with a carport (open garage) that you park the car under. While parked the carport/garage will contain a lens as its roof which will concentrate the light onto a small spot on the roof.

Re:Acrylic carport? by Ichijo · 2014-01-02 08:30 · Score: 1

People who have to park on the street likely can't afford an electric car anyway.

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Re:How wonderful by compro01 · 2014-01-02 08:32 · Score: 1

On the earth, its about 1366 watts per square metre....Lets assume day is 12 hours and night is 12 hours, so we get 1024 watts for 12 hours

That's 1366W/square meter at the top of the atmosphere (i.e. in orbit). Isolation at ground level is considerably less.

Also, the 1366W/m^2 figure is the mean isolation of the entire planet. It already accounts for it being night in half the world.

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Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by jeffb+(2.718) · 2014-01-02 08:34 · Score: 1

I doubt that they're going full nonimaging optics in the carport, although I could well be wrong. But that's mainly to make tracking easier (or unnecessary); practically, there just isn't any way you're going to get more than one sunlight-square-meter of power out of a square meter of roof, period.

As car concepts go, this one's a bit sillier than most. But once photovoltaics get cheap and robust enough to be used as a car finish, why the hell not?

All I Want by sycodon · 2014-01-02 08:34 · Score: 2

Is something that would power a fan so that the car doesn't turn into an oven during the day.

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Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by PRMan · 2014-01-02 08:40 · Score: 1

No. People are getting 2000 degrees F instead of 100 degrees F with a Fresnel lens pulled from an old rear-projection TV set.

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Suntan by 0xG · 2014-01-02 08:43 · Score: 1

A good-sized fresnel lens like that would certainly help me work on my sun tan!

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Re:Not for people in big citys or plcaes big snow by mythosaz · 2014-01-02 08:54 · Score: 1

The infrastructure for electric vehicles has a very long payoff, so absolutely it'll cost more than electricity. This thing might generate a penny an hour worth of electricity for a third of the day...

So, it's about choosing your priorities.

Beat you to it Ford by JamieIanMacgregor · 2014-01-02 08:57 · Score: 1

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4348255&cid=45160785

carport is ridiculous, but the rest is good by danlip · 2014-01-02 08:57 · Score: 1

I agree the carport idea is ridiculous, but I generally like this idea. I drive my car only a few miles each day, and leave it parked in the sun all day while I am at work, so I could probably get most of my power from solar. We use my wife's car for long trips anyways.

This is just a variant of the plug-in hybrid they already sell. Still plugs in. Still has a gas engine for range. Only has the battery capacity for 21 electric-only miles, which is the weakest point I see.

Re:carport is ridiculous, but the rest is good by samwichse · 2014-01-02 13:29 · Score: 2

Agreed. This thing has 300 watts of solar panels on it. Assuming through the day you averaged 200 watts from them over 8 hours, you'd make 1.6 kwh of electricity, enough to power the car for 4.5 miles at 350 wh/mi.

Re:Acrylic carport? by neonKow · 2014-01-02 08:58 · Score: 1

Read: "I live in a city that has limited parking space."

Even better if it could power aircon while absent by Engineer_Calvin · 2014-01-02 08:59 · Score: 1

I recall another manufacturer saying they would use solar panels to power the aircon at a low level so that the car wasn't an oven on your return to it. Far more useful to the average user than the warm fuzzies of getting 300W assisting in propelling the car.

Dear Ford.... by Lumpy · 2014-01-02 09:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

Stop with the stupid.

The Car port, if covered with conventional solar panels will be a lot cheaper, easier to make, and will not require special manufacturing processes to create special lenses that follow the sun.

Less than 1/2 their price and I can make you a carport that will be double their power with conventional 200Watt panels. Plus require ZERO maintenance except for washing them once a year.

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Re:Dear Ford.... by cryptoluddite · 2014-01-02 10:19 · Score: 2

Having solar panels on the car means that the car can generate enough electricity to overcome battery self-discharge. So if you leave it parked somewhere, like say the airport, for a couple weeks or even months you don't come back to an dead car.
Tesla draws about 50w all the time. A car without Tesla's poor standby electronics could even get a tiny bit of charge over time from the roof panels.
Re:Dear Ford.... by viperidaenz · 2014-01-02 13:18 · Score: 1

Unless you park in the covered section...
Re:Dear Ford.... by angel'o'sphere · 2014-01-02 14:57 · Score: 1

How should a 10m^2 solar panel be cheaper than a 10m^2 plexi glass fressnel lense?

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Re:Dear Ford.... by HyperQuantum · 2014-01-02 23:48 · Score: 1

It's not completely stupid. Solar panels on the roof are like a range extender. And battery almost empty during a ride, and the next charging station not close by? Stop at a restaurant, eat something while the battery recharges a bit, and you are good to go.
The carport with lens is stupid, though.

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Re:Dear Ford.... by Lumpy · 2014-01-03 02:51 · Score: 1

So what magical plastic do you have is sun tracking, any magnification will require a lot of mechanical systems to track the sun to keep it focused on the panel.

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Re:Dear Ford.... by angel'o'sphere · 2014-01-05 11:37 · Score: 1

I doubt you need sun tracking ...
OTOH if you wanted it you would use a mirror below it, I guess. Sounds at least cheaper and easier than tracking with the lens.

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10X? by scotts13 · 2014-01-02 09:25 · Score: 1

I have no problem with putting, what, 20 square feet (maximum) of solar cells on the car roof. It'll trickle a little power into the batteries, and it's kinda cool, even if the weight and cost of the cells makes it impractical. But, a 200 square foot optical carport lens sounds ludicrous. Ugly, expensive, and requires an always-on, guaranteed 100% foolproof object avoidance system, so the car doesn't run over toys, pets, or toddlers as it shuffles back and forth under the lens.

You may say it's a "concept car" to promote solar power, but believe me - this stupidity isn't doing solar power any favors.

Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by BringsApples · 2014-01-02 10:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

No, I evidently didn't read it correctly at all, but I think it was because the whole "The Ford CMAX Solar Energi Concept car will have 1.5 square meters of solar photovoltaic cells on its roof to generate power to charge its battery." threw me off. Hell, I thought "carport" was some fancy name for the thing that'd mount atop. Derp!

If this is the case, seems like it'd make more sense to leave the carport out of the picture, keep the lens (put it in your yard somewhere?), and move the solar panels from the car to below the lens.

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Re: Why does it get hot? by iamhassi · 2014-01-02 10:50 · Score: 1

Ok it's not perfect, but this is a lot closer to a consumer available street legal solar car from a big manufacture than we had in 2013. Imagine what we will have by 2020?

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Re:Why does it get hot? by viperidaenz · 2014-01-02 11:37 · Score: 1

Lets imagine they have super awesome efficient solar panels, converting 40% of the energy into electricity.
They're getting 1000% more heat due to the lens above. That's 600% more heat absorbed than a regular car parked in the sun.

Re:Fresnel lens, concentrate about 10x the energy? by viperidaenz · 2014-01-02 12:59 · Score: 1

The car has 1.5m2 of solar panels, the lens would need to be 15m2. That's only 5x3m, about that size of a carport. My double garage is about 8x6m - 48m2.

Re:How wonderful by viperidaenz · 2014-01-02 13:15 · Score: 1

They already said the 1.5m2 of solar panels put out 300W of power in the summary. That's 20% efficiency at a nominal 1000w/m2.

I don't know why you're trying to do horribly wrong back of the envelope calculations when the data is already in the summary.

Also, If you're driving a car for 1 hour averaging 50 horsepower, you're either driving wrong, driving a truck or driving up a very, very long hill. The Tesla Model S has a 60kw/h battery, has a range over 300km and a 310kw engine. Going by your assumption that every one drives at full throttle all the time, that 60kwh battery would last 11 minutes.

So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-02 14:56 · Score: 2

So there are no black cars?

I really don't get it why people are prepared to deliberately pretend to be far more stupid than they are just to try to find something negative about a technology they do not like.

Re:So there are no black cars? by Maxo-Texas · 2014-01-02 15:27 · Score: 1

Mod parent up.
+1 Duh!

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Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-02 16:32 · Score: 1

No, its the fresnel lens carport focusing sunlight on the car that makes the difference we are talking about..............maybe if you'd RTFA before you spout off calling others stupid, you wouldn't come off as such an idiot yourself.
Re:So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-02 17:49 · Score: 1

Nice try, but if true such a backtrack means you were writing about leaving the airconditioning running in the car in the carport with nobody inside.
Once again you are pretending to be far more stupid than you are.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 00:23 · Score: 1

So, now you are once again shifting the discussion because you can't respond appropriately. You didn't read the article or even the posts leading up to mine, you wrote something stupid because of it, I point it out, and you say I am backtracking. You need to backtrack and read the preliminary information before commenting.

So, what points are you denying?

1. The heating of the panel by the fresnel lens?
2. Good insulation would help?
3. A good air conditioner would be useful in such a car?

On the AC part, there is this phenomenon here on Slashdot called sarcasm. A majority of readers pick up on it immediately and get a chuckle. Some totally miss it, in this case that must have been you. But there is often truth in sarcasm, hence my point 3.
Re:So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-03 00:32 · Score: 1

Not shifting at all. Pointing out your evasion.
Be honest.
Just come out and say you hate photovoltaics or maybe even anything that reduces energy consumption. Instead of pretending be be stupid get it all out in the open and discuss it like an adult.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 00:33 · Score: 1

By the way, I find it strange that you would not read the article or the previous posts in this particular thread, go directly to my post, and respond with an attack with nothing really to add to the discussion at hand.

Happy New Year.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 01:20 · Score: 1

Why would I lie and day I hate photovoltaic? It is a great technology, I have never said it was a bad technology here or anywhere else. I have not said one negative thing about photovoltaic in this thread. In fact, if you have an electric car, it makes sense from an engineering standpoint to put a solar cell on top of the car, if for nothing else than keeping down battery drain or maybe even cooling/venting the car when parked in the sun. Any added range would be a plus. The lifetime cost/benefit information is not available in this article and is not really a topic for this thread, but that would be another interesting discussion.

I have nothing against solar power. I do have problems with how it is being touted, deployed, and financed, based on my personal analysis, but that is not relevant to this thread or discussion.

But we now have another post from you...that is about ME! That is kind of weird. I am just here for the technical discussion. I am an engineer and if I see drawbacks of having a system that employed a large Fresnel lens carport, I will talk about it. If you want to join, you are welcome, but please either dispute a point, elaborate a point, or present new or different information. Stop focusing on me and attacking me when you don't even have a single alternative point to make, its weird in a stalkish kind of way.

I think a Fresnel lens carport as described is not a good idea from an engineering perspective, and I doubt it would ever see significant market adaption. Its not about 'hate'. I just analyze.
Re:So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-03 01:33 · Score: 1

hate photovoltaic?
Because you've got a bit of a history doing it before. It pissed me off last time - now here you are pretending to be utterly stupid and using an impractical aspect of a concept car as the excuse to recycle your little luddite rant.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 01:43 · Score: 1

Goodday, sir, since all you have to add is vitriol, nothing for the readers. Nothing to back up your claims. Just attacks that make no sense, which is clearly evident to anyone reading.
Re:So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-03 02:19 · Score: 1

As distinct from your post above designed to do nothing but pour scorn on it, just because solar energy is at work, just like the long and pointless anti-solar thread the last time? What I have for the readers is a warning about someone with an agenda to mislead.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 03:37 · Score: 1

Your failure to provide anything to back up that claim is glaring.
Re:So there are no black cars? by dbIII · 2014-01-03 15:18 · Score: 1

Since it's only you and me by now I obviously don't have to. I've watched you shit all over every alternative energy apart from nuclear every time it comes up. A couple of times it's offended me enough that I've spoken up to interfere with your manipulation of the kiddies. We both know what's going on so no point in you lying anymore, pathetic luddite. If you really are a professional engineer instead of someone HR has buttered up with a cheap, fake title then you should feel ashamed of yourself. We are supposed to help and guide the development of mechanisms that improve society instead of standing in their way. That's what I used to tell my students back before I went back to private enterprise. Maybe you were asleep that day when someone like me tried to instill some professionalism into you.
Re:So there are no black cars? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 17:37 · Score: 1

You are too emotional to think. You have not once presented a single fact to dispute anything I've said. In addition, many here share my opinions but you choose to attack me. You even seek me out. Why don't you act like a mature person and have a mature conversation? If I present anything that you believe is not accurate, you could dispute it but rather you attack. That is the behavior of those who don't have an argument.

I hope you don't teach your students the same skills you have been using here, because its pretty much been limited to name calling and attacks. Just because you mis-read what I say, or simply don't understand, you resort to attacks. I honestly think you are emotionally unstable.

I will continue to speak my mind here. If you have alternate opinions, state them. If you think something is incorrect, present accurate information or facts to back it up. But we both know you won't do that don't we? We both know that all you have is attacks.

I am tired of being nicer than I should be to you. Good night sir.

I have one tiny problem with this. by EmperorOfCanada · 2014-01-02 15:01 · Score: 1

Where is the focal point? I really hope that there isn't a really solid focal point. Oh look the people thought they were ants. Not to mention that things like cats like to sleep in warm places.

There is another problem. The typical commuter is away from their car port during the best daylight hours.

That said, this would be perfect for me. I don't drive a car much so a solar panel would mean that I would plug the car in very rarely. I would love to drive for a year or more, check the charging logs and see that I have given the utility/petro fat cats $2.15 for the entire year. Also these freznel setups would probably be cheap enough that you could have one at the cottage and whatnot. Also they should be compatible from one car to the next.

But I suspect it would be great to have a solar panel on the car sipping up a bit extra energy while you work but that at home you would have a battery bank charging from dedicated solar panels. This being the key to all electric cars and solar energy; great batteries.

Re:How wonderful by bitingduck · 2014-01-02 15:08 · Score: 1

The 1366 W/m^2 (plus or minus a bit) is the instantaneous incoming radiant power density on a surface at 1 AU, not the insolation. There's no accounting for day/night in it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_constant )

The insolation is the time integral of that, and does account for the day night cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation )

Re:Why does it get hot? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-02 16:54 · Score: 1

In solar panels, only a narrow portion of the spectrum of solar radiated energy is converted to electricity. After that, some gets reflected, some heats up the surface. With the huge lens the surface will certainly heat up a lot more than just a solar panel. Touch a panel that's sitting in direct sunlight, its hot just like any dark surface.

Re:Why does it get hot? by Tatarize · 2014-01-02 22:24 · Score: 1

But, with this if the heat is an issue you can filter out that bit of the spectrum that would otherwise turn into heat and only lens and allow through the useful bits of the spectrum. We just don't because who cares if your solar panels get hot. In this case, we would.

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Re:In terms of the overall system by nightsky30 · 2014-01-03 00:03 · Score: 1

If people are at work all day when the sun is out, and the car is not under the "special" garage, then how will it ever charge fully? Sure, you may get more garage charging time in the summer months, but that time is cut short the other half the year. I like the idea of adding the lenses to the solar panels. The garage sounds ridiculous.

Re:Why does it get hot? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 00:29 · Score: 1

Yes, you could possibly filter out some with the Fresnel lens. The question would be how much would be practical before you eliminate useful (convertible) light? (I use the term 'light' loosely as we are talking about the full spectrum). More efficient panels have multiple capture layers. I wonder if this might have some small compounding effect vs a typical opaque material, as more "light" is captured? There may be some research out there on panel heating, it would be interesting to see what the conclusions are.

So if i pull an aluminum trailer with 5 by ralphaostrander · 2014-01-03 01:34 · Score: 1

of those solar panels on it. It will charge while I drive?

Re:Why does it get hot? by Tatarize · 2014-01-03 11:24 · Score: 1

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/intglass

The albedo of anything means you'll lose something but if you can divide out the heat causing wavelengths from the useful light ones, you can just counteract this with more light. So you lose 10%, get 100% more light and you won't notice. It means you need a larger roof or a reflector into it, but still it would be nicely useful. Whether you could use such a thing to divide the heat and the light and use the heat for condensed solar and the light for PV isn't something I care to speculate on. But, it's all generally theoretically possible.

But again, the stupid car moving and running over my cat is going to pretty much a deal killer. Unless your car port moves without the potential to kill fluffy, it's DOA. And even then it seems pretty silly. Just slapping a solar panel on top though is such low hanging fruit that that part is gold..

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It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.

Re:Why does it get hot? by Mr+D+from+63 · 2014-01-03 12:08 · Score: 1

Interesting. Thanks. Keep Fluffy away........and I'd hate to climb up and clean that thing as well.

Re:Why does it get hot? by Tatarize · 2014-01-03 14:37 · Score: 1

The bigger heat issue isn't just the IR though, there's heat produced just by producing more current. More current in a wire means more heat. So you'll need to build the panels in wildly different ways when you're concentrating it. Even if you just filter out the heat with a hot mirror or something (which would typically require it adjust to the suns position), you'll still be left with something that requires more than just a panel on the roof, and then you might well be talking an extra grand or two for the panel and gear rather than a couple hundred which is a steal for an extra mile or so per hour of sunlight on the go.

If I have a specialty car port, why not just have a specialty set of solar panels on my roof and plug the car in. While I'm all for the panel, the car port seems pretty unworkable.

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