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Ask Slashdot: State of the Art In DIY Security Systems?
An anonymous reader writes "For geeks that want to secure their home, it seems that the choice of Do It Yourself solutions are limited. And in case you prefer to use a company, most of them require to subscribe to a contract for 3 years that costs at least $20 a month. In case you want to make a DIY security system without a monthly fee, few options are available. Some products (such as ismartalarm, Lowe's Iris system or also the fortress security) let you install your own system but seem not to be very mature (for some the alarm is not loud, for others they do not use the internet and only a land line, etc.). Is there any recommendation for a basic DIY home security system for monitoring the house and just have notification by e-mail or through a mobile application? Is there any open standard for home automation and security devices? Any suggestion about how to build something simple, affordable and efficient?" How to top the big-name subscription-based security companies is a recurring question, but one worth exploring every once in a while, as sensors and software both advance, and especially as more and more people are carrying around phones well-suited as remote monitors for in-house cameras. (And here's a preemptive link to ZoneMinder.)
If I told you, I'd have to thrill you.
DIY security systems are nice, but your insurance policy will dictate what you must have. Once you pass a certain threshold of personal property, they'll require you have a monitored system with specifics. What equipment and who you pick comes down to whether or not you want to fight the insurance company when you file a claim.
This means most of us sign with the 3 letter well known company since we know it'll be rubber stamped.
Posting as AC since my one flaimebait post from 5 years ago would bury this post. It'd be nice to have decaying karma.
Have you looked into X10?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Google "blue iris security software". I think it's $50 for the full version. It supports a wide variety of security cameras, including those pan and tilt wifi models.
I paired Blue Iris with a 4 channel capture card (about $100) and four Bulldog wired cameras (about $28 apiece) and a few minutes work with dyndns and the built-in web server, and I can monitor my house from anywhere I have network access, and any movement will send snapshots to my phone and record an AVI that gets sent to a secure server. The software supports configurable "dead zones", so if you have a tree that trips the motion detector in the wind you can block it out.
To my knowledge, this is the absolute cheapest you can go and have a usable configuration.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Our site uses Zoneminder together with Axis M1054 cameras. However, although these IP cameras can produce 1280x800 dpi images at 30 fps, we run them at only 1 fps because of the high load that this would otherwise put on the local server's CPU. So I suppose the program could be further optimized, but otherwise we are quite happy with it.
Run Xkill, click on the bad guy?
The 2GIG systems can be installed yourself, but you have to prepared to research. They are big enough that third party monitoring companies support them, but they are really designed for installer use, so a DIY installation requires a bit of know-how. I replaced my ADT system when they bought Brinks, and I really didn't save a lot of money, but I got a degree of control, and avoided the monopoly. Pleased.
Yes roc, depending on your country and laws, thats the neat way set up :) :) :)
Great software on fast a i5 or i7 cpu with 24/7 server quality HDs and a way to get the data when alerted to another external system.
No use having the person walk out with the only recording
Another tip would be to read up on any HD cameras - some have more unique password and port settings for their HD stream, others just work
Read up on test sites about night use, not all are great at night for the price.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I work for a company that installs alarm systems. Dont want the insane mothly monitoring with a contract? Dont let them install "free" systems. You are paying many times over for the life of the contract for that "free" system.
Pay for the T&M up front, and many local companies will do the monitoring for as little as $10/month. (ADT and other national companies wont, but odds are you have a locally owned company that will.)
And beware DIY systems; If you dont do it RIGHT, you can end up paying more due to false alarm fees. Many municipalities charge per alarm after so many alerts. So if you dont know what you are doing and end up sending in multiple false alarm calls the the police, you could end up paying hundreds per incident in penalties.
You are looking for either the HAI Omnipro II or the ELK M1 gold. Check out http://cocoontech.com/forums/ for all the information you will ever need.
I had a good experience building a DIY security system based on a M1 controller from Elk Products. The documentation was clear and there are add on options for connecting it to the internet and interfacing with other home automation equipment.
http://www.elkproducts.com/product_family_overview.html
I have done just this. After ADT refused to 'update' the installation I had done about 12 years ago, and wanted to charge me $800 or so AND continue to charge me the $50 a month for monitoring.
So, I junked their old (crusty and mostly non-working) system and bought all my own kit. You'll find you can *always* buy better than what they give you in their 'free' package anyway, and tailor it to your own needs. You can find a monitoring company for around $10 a month. My insurance company doesn't care who does it, as long as it calls the police, alarms for fire, etc etc etc.
So. Here's what I got :
Vista20p panel. It's what most 'big name' companies install, except YOU get to set the 'installer code' and the ability to change / add stuff you hook up to it. :P
Honeywell 6120RF keypad. You'll need a 'keypad' to program your panel. This one also takes care of wireless sensors.
Various door sensors, heat / smoke sensors, break-glass sensors, Pet Immune movement sensors.
Don't forget the siren
If you have a landline, you can hook it up to this panel and have it call your monitoring-company-of-choice when an event trips. If you don't, you can get wireless addons which call them via cell-phone.
All this stuff is easy to order, easy to physically install. The programming for the Vista20P is a bit arcane and reminds me of programming assembly from my youth, but a day or two with the manual and some judicious googling and you should be set.
One of my requirements was that it hook up with the z-wave stuff I'd started installing, and I'm a fan of gadgets. So I *also* bought some touch panels with pretty graphics and stuff on them. They're expensive, mind (about $400 a pop) and their z-wave capabilities were limited. I ended up not using them for that and got a Vera-lite anyway. The wife, however, likes them.. so I consider the investment worthwhile (they can also display security camera feeds).
Note: NONE of this stuff allows you to monitor without a contract to a company. If you want to do that, then you can buy the add-on daughter board for the Vista20P called the Envisalink3. Hook that up to your home network and it can send you mails and stuff when things occur. Also note: if you do that and your power goes out, and you don't have battery backup for the internet gateway it sends through, you'll uh.. not get notified.
All this stuff I bought from 'the home security store'. Which is a haven for DIY'ers. They have a very helpful forum, very helpful staff and their prices are reasonable. I bought my bits a year or so ago and I've been a very happy customer.
Links follow :
Vista20P : http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-958-vista-20p-honeywell-vista-20p-security-system.aspx
Wireless Keypad : http://www.homesecuritystore.com/nsearch.aspx?keywords=6150RF
Touchscreen pads : http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-2081-tuxw-honeywell-tuxedo-touch-screen-keypad-white.aspx
Glass break sensors : http://www.homesecuritystore.com/c-76-glass-break-detectors.aspx#Filter=%5BManufacturerID=7*ava=0%5D
etc etc etc
If by "open" you mean "closed & proprietary, but with some reverse-engineered partially-functional open-source API impementations", then you're right.
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
If you're only 'alerting yourself' there's no fee involved. The 'alarm fee' my township imposes on me is, apparently, to cover false calls. (naturally my wife had one of these once...). They have a yearly false call allowance of.. once. After that they start charging you.
I agree with 'what's the point' though. If I get burgled, I want the police to be notified, and either come shoot someone for me, or turn up with flashing lights if I'm away - not me sitting on a cellphone describing what they're removing from my house to a 911 representative.
What do insurance companies say about guard dogs, by the way?
"Here is your more expensive policy."
There are two better uses for that $20 per month. You could either bump up your dataplan so that you are sent lots of pictures to your phone of any vaguely interesting activity. Or if you have a good data plan then you could use $20 per month to get a data only plan for your security system so that it can communicate via your internet connection or via a cell data system as backup.
My sister has me as a contact for her security system. So I have driven across town more than once only to find one of her family has set it off and the phone is turned down or off the hook. It would be great to just get a snap of whomever set it off. Neice. Nothing. Nephew. Nothing. Guy in balaclava with sack over his shoulder, call the cops and give them a blow by blow description of who is exactly where.
So a DIY security system should not only be as good as traditional ones but should be way cooler.
On a side note, don't mount the cameras up high looking down. All you will get is an image of the robber's hoodies or baseball cap logo. Mount the cameras in a concealed location at eye level. This way you basically get a mug shot. If you want cameras for deterrent you can get fake cameras to mount up high. The only cameras you want up high are to capture the over all picture. I will tell you that you will be sorely disappointed if your security camera only provides enough evidence to say that a guy(race unknown) 5'4" to 5'10" wearing a Blue Molson hat, a grey sweatshirt, jeans, and black sneakers took all your stuff. Get a good enough picture at eye level and the police will drive right over to the halfway house and arrest him 20 minutes later.
If you don't care about out-of-the-box sexy experience, it's hard to beat the Elk M1 as a DYI'er. Their view of DIY'ers is largely ambivalent... they won't go out of their way to solve your problems, but the moment you furnish them with a valid M1 serial number, they'll give you access to the same training materials, downloads, firmware, and accessories as their pro installers. It's a strategy that works for them, partly because lots of those prosumers who buy one to install themselves end up starting companies to get certified officially and install the same alarm systems for other people.
Just one thing... do... not... even... THINK... about buying a cheap TCP/IP-UART bridge for ~$20 on eBay and connecting it directly to both the internet and the Elk serial bus. Make sure you have some kind of middleware sitting between the internet and Elk serial port that can only do specific things, like indicate an active alarm, arm the system, etc. And if you don't understand what I just said & want your alarm to be internet-connected, pony up the cash and buy a proper M1-XEP interface for it. The Elk RS-232 bus was NEVER designed to be directly exposed to attackers over the internet, and mostly depends upon being inside a locked box for security. If you interface it to the internet in a way that allows arbitrary values to get blindly relayed straight to the RS-232 bus after reading this, you deserve whatever happens to you for being a complete idiot.
The only thing it really lacks, IMHO, is the ability to implement Boolean logic for triggering alarms. For example, monitoring the state of the glass-break sensor, the door-shock sensor, and motion-detector and triggering an alarm ONLY if at 2 out of 3 fire within 20 seconds. And having similar logic in other rooms. The firmware in my controller allows you to "sort of" do something like that for a single zone, but IMHO it needs the ability to independently do this in multiple zones.
The nice thing about the M1 is that thanks to Arduinos w/Ethernet and the RPi, you can actually extend its logic pretty easily by using the M1 as your low-level sensor interface, and moving higher-level logic to a Pi or Arduino on the Elk RS-232 bus (relaying events from sensors as they happen to that serial bus, and triggering things like alarms by sending events back to the controller via that same serial bus).
Kludge-tip: if you're in a hurry to set up the system, don't feel like pulling wires right away to each room, and have an unused landline phone cable with 6 wires buried in the wall to hijack, you can buy input expanders and use the 6 repurposed phone wires to daisy-chain the Elk bus to strategic points in your house (1 pair for RS-485, 1 pair for +12v, 1 pair for ground). I had my own Elk M1 wired that way for almost 3 years, before I finally got proper conduit and wires pulled throughout the entire house. I had one M1XIN hidden behind the TV in the living room & plugged into the phone jack (which obviously wasn't used for an actual landline phone), and a second one upstairs behind the nightstand in the master bedroom, along with the equally-kludged keypad. Amazingly, it actually worked (if I had voltage issues, plan B was to add DC-DC converters to boost the voltage from 12v to 48v as it left the box, then drop it back down to 12v at the living room & master bedroom. Fortunately, everything used very little power, and the only time I ever had an issue was around year 4, when the backup battery finally died and the voltage started sagging.
Oh... also... Elk's M1 can interface directly with X10, Zwave, Insteon, and some other standard that escapes me at the moment. The MSRP of their expansion boards is pretty high, but you'll never actually pay those prices anyway because there's ALWAYS somebody selling them for a relatively small markup on eBay. However, make sure you buy the main alarm controller itself from an authorized dealer. Elk DOES track serial numbers of main system units, and if a serial number is reported as 'stolen' by a vendor, they'll re
You can cut the monitoring if you don't want it to alert the police, but then what is the point?
In many jurisdictions, including where I live (San Jose, CA) the police DO NOT RESPOND to triggered alarms. 99% of the time they are false alarms, triggered by the cat, or a relative who doesn't know the disarm code. The police have better things to do.
Maybe this is a good time to review some anti-theft tips. Keep in mind the 4 D's:
Deter
Defend
Delay
Deceive
* Install motion sensor lights on the front and back of your house.
* Install a fake camera. For deterrent value, a fake camera will work as well as a real camera, but will cost far less. It should have a bright blinking LED to make it more noticible. You can buy realistic decoy cameras for less than $10 on Amazon.
* If you install a real camera, make sure it is good enough to actually identify the perp. Otherwise, what's the point? Install several fake decoy cameras as well. If the perp is trying to avoid the fakes, he is more likely to be seen by the real camera.
* Put a "Beware of Dog" or "Vicious Dog" sign on the gate to your back yard, whether you actually have a dog or not.
* Put up a security alarm yard sign and window stickers, even if you don't have an alarm system. Yard signs and stickers are available on Amazon, eBay, etc.
* Get some old, well worn work boots, size 14 or larger. Leave one pair on your front porch, and another by your back door.
* When you leave home, leave a radio playing on a talk station. Set the volume so it is slightly audible from outside your home.
* Set up timers to turn lights on and off when you are not home.
* If you have an alarm that frequently goes off accidently, get it fixed. Otherwise your neighbors will ignore it.
* Valuables should not be visible from any door or window.
* Put wood dows or PVC pipe in the slide track of each window and sliding door. These should fit snugly, so they are not easy to dislodge by someone reaching through the broken window. Make sure everyone in your home knows how to remove the stop in case of a fire.
* When not home, lock internal doors. This will prevent an intruder from moving quickly around your home.
* Leave out some decoy valuables, such as an old laptop with no HDD, or some fake jewelry. Decoy valuables should be left in a conspicuous place, but not visible from outside.
* Frost or laminate your garage windows, so a perp cannot see if your car is gone.
* If you have a safe, bolt it to the floor with a bolt that is only accessible from inside the safe. Cut the bottom out of a cardboard box and put it over the safe to hide it.
* If you have a an unused safe or lockbox, fill it with bricks, lock it, and put it in a conspicuous location.
* If you have a second story, don't store a ladder in your yard or shed.
* Trim any trees that can be climbed to reach a second story window, or make sure those windows are secure.
* Use plants with thorns, such as roses, in front of your windows. Keep them trimmed below the window sill, so neighbors can see anyone breaking in.
* Go through your wallet and purse. Do you really need to carry more than one credit card? Write down the account number and phone number for each card, so that you can cancel them quickly if they are stolen.
* Make your possessions easy to identify. Paint the handles of your tools orange or lime green. Laser etch a custom design on the back of your phone or laptop.
* Take photos of your valuable possessions, and record any serial numbers.
* Scan any important documents, and save the images off site.
He's just playing.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Police? There in minutes when seconds count - if you're lucky. What thieves don't want is attention. People looking, people noting license tags, people calling the cops. If an alarm sounds in my home the very last thing I'm thinking is going to save me is the police but I will have been warned of trouble. Screw monitoring, I want NOISE and I want LIGHT! If you were a thief would you be robbing the home with the motion sensed lights and alarm warnings or the dark home with no signs or intrusion detection? Low hanging fruit is what scum look for.
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Depends where you live I suppose. In the greater vancouver area (Canada), I use US based Alarm.com The system is great and convenient with lots of system features, zwave stuff, automated locks etc. A few months ago our house was broken into. I was about 10 minutes away. I raced back and was greeted by 3 RCMP cars blocking my driveway, they were already inside sweeping the house. We lost nothing. The guy broke in via a rear window and sensor logs show he raced around the lower floor, missed easy pickings, pulled the knob off our stereo cabinet door, dropped it and exited via the rear patio door in under 2 minutes, and got away (until a couple weeks later a few blocks away). Earlier, my wife entered the unlock code on the door incorrectly, and inadvertently entered the duress code. I got a push notification on my alarm .com app, checked the sensor log and felt it was likely a false alarm. I called my wife to check in, she hadn't realised from the symptoms that she'd triggered the duress but it made sense to her in hindsight. I assured her to expect a knock at the door shortly, and sure enough, again the RCMP were there, insisting a thorough check of ID, an interview, and a tour of the house.
I couldn't be happier with the performance of the system and the service. Far better than I had in the past with ADT, Chubb, etc. even in the same house with the same police force, the response was not that good, and in fact before I switched, I got a letter from ADT saying that there would no longer be a police response unless the monitoring company was able to connect to the home owner and the home owner requested it.
On the other hand, no Neighbors, heard, noticed, or responded.
Why buy it? Surely there are open source options for that sort of thing?
I hate printers.
I developed Hydra Control Freak as a result of a personal security problem I have involving a stalker. It's been evolving over a period of more than 6 years now but for 2-3 years it's been available in product form. I still have problems with the stalker (which is why I'm trying to keep my name out of the main stream a bit) which takes up far too much of my time but it has helped developed the product to be extremely effective.
From a commercial perspective it's been a complete failure, as I don't have the financial resources to market it as product properly and I'm rubbish at marketing (I will be trying to present it from a more grass roots perspective this year targeted more for the self installer). From the perspective of it working as a security device it's extremely effective and it's very flexible. At my place I have a great many cameras and many different kinds of sensors, both wired and wireless. You only need to enter my property a couple of meters and I'm alerted by E-mail alerts, notification systems, wired rows of led lights that blink (One per sensor so I know instantly where people are), piezoelectric beepers and video displays that load up automatically, showing both live and looping event views. At night, the TV turns on automatically as I wired a Phidget to a universal remote control, it switches to the AVI channel and by using a simple javascript program that is subscribed to the websocket interface the HCF provides it dynamically loads the cameras and the looping event view. All I have to do is look at the tv and slam the panic button if it's a bad guy. The system allows you to link devices in the same way over the wan, so I also monitor some clients places via the same system. If someone comes onto their property, their system tells my system, my system loads up their cameras (Triggered by the websocket interface) and my panic button triggers their sirens etc.
The Hydra Control Freak is built as a standalone device into a Sheeva plug. It's written in Java and runs on tomcat7, but I've made it a self contained, plug and play product and not a user hackable product (It supports remote software updates though). It supports the following devices:
* Legacy X10 controller (Started with this)
* rfxtrx433 home automation transceiver from rfxcom (Fantastic for Europe, not usable in the US)
* Phidget I/O controllers, really useful for wired sensors and wired control, can add several of this to one device
* Cameras (Reads MJPEG streams continuously so you have instant alerts with activity that happened prior to the trigger
* http, both inputs and outputs to propagate events, interface to external systems such as iPhone alerting apps and to expand the
monitoring over the WAN
I tried to make this device so that it was simple to use. To this end I don't support a scripting language for programming it's behavior,
rather I have a state machine/event engine with declarative configuration via web-based guis. However, this is also a failure. In the sense
that it appears that this is not really simple for people, you have to be quite geeky to think well in terms of state transitions, although
my most success has been with just non-tech users where I configure the system for them.
The websocket interface is one of the most exciting features I've added recently. Using that and ajax and you can make pretty much any
kind of dynamic display you like. The HTTP actions can pass over handles on the events to remote devices so that the websocket interfaces
there no how to load up the cameras from the source in response to the events. By using HTTPS I can have a small window open on my machine inside the corporate network and my cameras loads up automatically instantly (In addition to the alerts).
SSL hides the websocket
protocol from the firewalls so that it works flawlessly
If you want to know anything more about the product, you should contact me directly at this point. The website is not updating at this time as I consider how I restructure the sales approach. (tech development with updates is continuing however).
Kim
You laugh, but I think a lot of resistance to mass transit expansion/funding is from people in affluent neighborhoods who don't want "poor people" able to get to their neighborhoods easily.
Back in the late '70s, I shared a house with a guy who had a pet Bengal tiger. The animal was a real pussy (of the non-edible kind), but one time a prowler came round, sticking his head through an open window. The pussy-cat snuck up, put his nose to the intruder's face and purred or growled or whatever it is they do. That guy's screams were quite funny.
If you're only 'alerting yourself' there's no fee involved. The 'alarm fee' my township imposes on me is, apparently, to cover false calls. (naturally my wife had one of these once...). They have a yearly false call allowance of.. once. After that they start charging you.
I agree with 'what's the point' though. If I get burgled, I want the police to be notified, and either come shoot someone for me, or turn up with flashing lights if I'm away - not me sitting on a cellphone describing what they're removing from my house to a 911 representative.
While automatic notifications are nice, the latter scenario is more likely to get action from the police. They receive false alarms from the automated systems constantly. If you are on the phone with the 911 operator and you tell them "I am looking at the burglars on my security cameras RIGHT NOW!" it will get a faster response than if your computer calls them.
Enigma
Down here it is usually enough to just leave a sign on the door that says something like this.
Hay Bubba, better wait on tha porch till I geet back. Jest run to the store for more ammo. I ain't fed the dogs yet and them are locked inside and hungry so u better stay on the porch.
WOULD YOU WANT TO GO IN AFTER READING THAT?
Did I leave the oven on?
I'm becoming more and more disappointed in home security systems. And this just makes it worse. "smart" home monitoring systems seem to provide all of the features that security systems were designed to eliminate long ago.
Did I leave the oven on?
The whole purpose of an alarm system isn't to be able to monitor my own home.
Did I leave the oven on?
The purpose of an alarm system isn't to be able to check on my posessions, children, dog, or delivery man.
Did I leave the oven on?
The purpose of an alarm system, is for someone else to monitor my home.
Did I leave the oven on?
The purpose of an alarm system is specifically to NOT worry about my home when I'm away.
Did you leave the oven on?
Constantly caring (i.e. worrying) about my home when I'm away means that I'm not really away. That's always been considered an O.C.D. disorder -- not being able to let go and relax. I have an alarm system. If someone trips it, the monitoring company will call me. So long as the monitoring company doesn't call me, I'm happy on vacation. "Piece of mind" doesn't come from checking every ten minutes. It's comes from not checking at all.
If you're going to build your own alarm system, make sure you put a sensor inside the oven.
I totally agree with those who say that the traditional alarm systems are primarily for the insurance companies. Lower quotes and simpler claims.
I have a good alarm system. Of course installed by an alarm company and, of course, hugely overpriced, even while I believe I had a decent deal on it. And it is certified etc. And it is a wireless one (100% cellular). And I did put enough stickers and labels to make sure the potential intruders understand that. The primary purpose of the alarm system is to scare off the regular bulgars, the amateurs who hope to steal something - whatever they can find. I do not poses any real valuables so I doubt it would be interesting for more professional thieves to visit me. For others - I want them to know that there will be noise when they break in and there is no line to cut so the police will be alerted. Yes, the noise will probably stop once they destroy the siren, but it takes only few seconds for the alarm system to send the signal over cellular network and it is impossible to find it that quickly to disable. Again, for an ordinary bulgar, not someone who is targeting that home specifically. And once the signal is sent there is a chance that if the police crew is eating doughnuts nearby they actually may be there in few minutes.
Now about the DIY system. I am playing with home automation, Insteon etc. It is one of my pet projects to create a "smarter home" that would also go further in terms of protecting itself. By no means I am planning to replace the "certified" system - because of the insurance. I would like to put more motion sensors and cameras outside to have a kind of "early detection". I want to make sure that whoever approaches the house is aware that he has been detected, watched, filmed and someone may be alerted about his presence. This may discourage many people. Same for the "away from home" mode. I have enough smart light switches at home to set up a scene that will turn the lights on and off in such a pattern that one might think there is someone at home while we may be away - at least unless they spend enough time on surveillance.
I think the ideal system is the one that would alert me over my mobile phone ASAP, even before someone breaks into the house. So I can look at the external and/or internal cameras and see what is going on around the house. After that it is up to me to act. I can call the police. I can call my neighbour to look outside and call the police. I can remotely turn on the lights and even trigger the real alarm if needed.
My house was robbed a few years back. We had an active alarm. The thieves were in and out while the alarm was still going, in the morning in broad daylight. They don't really care about alarms, because they, know they can be gone before anyone can respond.
After that I put cameras up. I put them in inside corners facing out of the porches where they can't be walked around, and in other places they can't be reached. This has worked as much more of a deterrent, due (I believe) to the fact that no one wants to be ID'ed while committing a crime. Since a lot of these people are recurring criminals, if you have a good image, your local cops may actually know who they are.
As for what system to use. I've used Zoneminder with IP cameras, and a couple HD USB cameras with powered remote hubs. The IP cameras (foscam) are the most unreliable of the bunch, simply because they tend to cut out when recording an event. You'll get the beginning and the middle, sometimes the end.. but never a full motion event. I've talked to other people and they say the same about a lot of IP cameras. The USB option is great, but there is a limit to the lenght of the USB cable that can be used even powered.
once more into the breach
No _known_ dog: http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Rat_Things_(Snow_Crash) :-)
Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
What is wrong with you??