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Steam Controller Hands-on

Ars Technica has posted their impressions from a hands-on session with Valve's new Steam Controller. The controller notably departs from standard practice of relying on two thumbsticks for precise movement, instead replacing them with concave touchpads. From the article: "When used as a kind of virtual trackball, as most games did with the right pad, it was a revelation. When used as a virtual d-pad, as it was on the left pad, it was an exercise in frustration. Let's focus on the right pad first. There's definitely a learning curve to using this side of the pad properly; years of muscle memory had me trying to use it like an analog stick (minus the stick) at first. It only really began to click when I started swiping my thumb over the pad, as I've seen in previous videos (there was no one on hand to really explain the controller to me, so I was left figuring it out on my own, just like a new Steam Machine owner). When I say it "started to click," I mean that literally. The subtle clicking in your hands as you swipe along the pad is an incredible tactile experience, as if there was an actual weighted ball inside the controller that's rolling in the direction you swipe. And like a trackball slowly losing its inertia, the clicking slows its pace after you lift your thumb off the pad, giving important contextual information for the momentum imparted by your swipe." More write-ups are available about the controller from Gamespot, Gizmodo, and Joystiq.

89 of 138 comments (clear)

  1. A gentle push from Steam by gringer · · Score: 2

    Well, it's not like you're being steamrolled into accepting this as an input device. With an open platform, you should be free to use whatever input device you want.

    --
    Ask me about repetitive DNA
    1. Re:A gentle push from Steam by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      A spatial controller could be cool, like the Gyration Air Mouse, but I would bet Gorilla arm fatigue would be a problem...

    2. Re:A gentle push from Steam by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That and the fact that they announced that you're free to install SteamOS on any hardware.

      Sounds a damn sight more open than any other "console" out there.

    3. Re:A gentle push from Steam by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Valve is a billion dollar company that specializes in DRM. Repeat: They specialize IN DRM.

      So when you say "Sounds a damn sight more open than any other 'console' out there."

      I say: I am glad you are optimistic and interpret it the way you want to hear it.

      But when a company that specializes in DRM --- and Steam is great, by the way, and I enjoy playing No More Room In Hell as one example --- but they still specialize in DRM and the idea of optimistically assuming the ultimately awesome best out-of-this-world groovy scenario might work for you.

      This extreme optimism doesn't work for me. Steam is a DRM-based platform, I cannot imagine any scenario where it resembles "open". Regardless of how it "sounds" (which is something called "marketing" in some corners of the world).

      --
      Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
    4. Re:A gentle push from Steam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      True DRM is actually a good thing. When DRM is done right, it's practically invisible, and the benefits and ease of use should make it seem like an enticing option over say, piracy.

      So what does Steam do that benefits me, the consumer?
      - Auto updating games with patches/DLC. No more manually downloading patches, I can pause and resume as I please, I no longer have to start the game to figure out that it's out of date.
      - It's free - no subscription/signup fees. Some advertising, but the adverts are all for products already on Steam - No stupid 'Wierd old trick' or 'doctor's hate her!' ads.
      - I can install games without having to dig around for the disk
      - I (usually) don't have to enter CD keys, although if I do, steam keeps a record of them for me
      - Quick links to guides/achievement pages
      - standardised chat & friends accessible in any game (in steam overlay)
      - game discounts & sales, including true, personalised, reviews and recommendations written BY my friends, (unlike sites like facebook, where "Steve liked this" doesn't mean anything)

      I could go on, but suffice it to say my (gaming) life has been a lot easier since I started using Steam.

      And what's the downside? DRM? Say it out loud, and focus on the words. Digital. Rights. Management. So some people can't copy a game directory and give it to a friend.
          a) it's not like we live in an age where downloading said games from the net is HARD, and
          b) the pleb should just buy the game and stop scabbing

    5. Re:A gentle push from Steam by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Valve is a billion dollar company that specializes in DRM. Repeat: They specialize IN DRM.

      Exactly. They specialize in it. I.e. they are one of the few companies who have gotten the mix right.
      Gifting games? Check. Sharing with family? Check. No always online shit? Check.

      So let me expand my earlier comment: Valve as a company specializing in DRM sounds a damn sight more open than any other company out there.

    6. Re:A gentle push from Steam by jma05 · · Score: 1

      > they are one of the few companies who have gotten the mix right.

      Hardly. I tried several PC online merchants and Steam is the worst. The late Direct2Drive, GamersGate and Amazon are all superior to Steam. I avoided Steam for a long time but tried it after picking up a few Humble Bundles. I am not happy at all with the service.

      I want my relation to the merchant to end after I made the purchase... or at least, after I install it. Steam is the only one that requires me to run a client to launch the game.

      Steam is the only service that forces updates. I only play single player and don't want them foisted on me. I also have bandwidth caps. Very annoying. It seems to ignore the setting to not update.

      Steam is the only one which logs my playtime. I consider that an invasion of privacy just the same way I consider Kindle tracking page turns an intrusion. There seems to be no way to turn it off.

      Their "offline mode" is broken. When I find myself without an Internet Connection and enter the offline mode, many games won't launch. It seems that I need to validate games online every once in a while. All other services don't bother me this way. Steam is only slightly better than always-on DRM. If I can predict and plan my offline times and verify (check the list games that I can backup validate the ones I can't), it works... but unreliable otherwise.

      Sometimes, it says the client needs to be updated... and if I don't have an Internet connection at that time, it just refuses to launch at all... not even in offline mode. As I type this, it just downloaded a client update even though I told it to not update except at night. Steam is very disrespectful of network settings and concerns.

      I am playing Titan Quest now. It appears that there is a difference between my game save in online mode and offline mode and my offline save which reset the game to the beginning overwrote my progress in online mode. Losing progress is very annoying in an RPG.

      Steam may get a pass by the masses. But it is a step backward for user rights. It treats it users as children or thieves. At least in my limited experience, it is worse than console DRM in many aspects.

    7. Re:A gentle push from Steam by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      You're being simplistic. Steam is working to decrease the DRM you have to put up with. Without any DRM, companies would skip the PC entirely. Consoles have very, very heavy DRM obviously. If you're satisfied with GOG, that might not bother you, but in order for PC gaming not to be very close to dead, some concessions need to be made, and steam is doing a great job promoting light DRM as an alternative to the consoles.

    8. Re:A gentle push from Steam by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should branch out a bit before you use the word "only" so often.

      It's actually quite common for games to log play time. Heck this extends back to the Quake / Starcraft days.

      I know of plenty of clients that need to be launched before running the game. e.g. Origin, uplay, Games for windows live (though this one helpfully launches the client when you start the game, I've never actually done it the other way round).

      I've never seen Steam "ignore" any setting. Actually most of my game library currently has update available listed. None of the games refuse to launch even the multiplayer ones (though they refuse to connect). Also when the client needs an update and the update fails, or the internet connection drops out, the only time I've experienced this it gracefully dropped me into the client with a warning saying it'll update next time. I also seem to recall you can cancel the update without issue.

      Steam gets a pass from the masses because I still assert that it's a shitload better than what the competitors are ramming down our throats.
      What would you say to the person who breaks your finger when every one else is trying to cut off your arm? And I do mean "everyone else". No big studio is releasing DRM free stuff because consumers don't care enough. Heck even Sim City and Assassins Creed 3 with their fucked up beyond all belief DRM scheme sold millions of copies.

      To the man who broke my finger: "Thanks for not cutting off my arm."

    9. Re:A gentle push from Steam by jma05 · · Score: 1

      > Maybe you should branch out a bit before you use the word "only" so often.

      It’s the word of distinction that I am making with other delivery systems *I* used. I used it with all deliberation.

      > It's actually quite common for games to log play time. Heck this extends back to the Quake / Starcraft days.

      I do not know if that is true. None of the many non-Steam games I currently have, give any hint of this being true.

      Even if that is the case, it is more of an intrusion if the delivery system logs/transmits play times than if individual games do. For example, it’s one thing for Slashdot to log my usage of Slashdot and another thing for my ISP/DoubleClick/NSA logging my use of Slashdot, along with everything else (not a perfect analogy, but adequate).

      Your experience seems to be different than mine. I know I have launch problems. I have seen others complain similarly in forums.

      See these threads
      http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675439
      http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2280788

      There are all sorts of experiences from those who assert, like you, that they have no problems to those who have the very same problems that I do.

      I have no experience with Origin, uplay, G4WL so far. I have avoided Sim City and Assassins Creed 3 so far, precisely for the reason of always-on DRM (along with Diablo III and a few others).

      All the other digital distributions I bought from, work exactly like any other paid software on my Desktop – never need Internet after install. Steam is the only one that I use (no doubt that Origin, G4WL and uPlay also do – and hence I don’t buy from them), which keeps reminding me that I only have a service.

      > I still assert that it's a shitload better than what the competitors are ramming down our throats.

      To be fair, I do like that you buy the game once for all platforms. Other vendors often want you to buy it separately for each platform. I am interested in home streaming to my laptop from my Desktop that Steam is said to be working on. No other vendor is working on that now. Some redeeming features. But I still prefer other vendors.

  2. Re:This thing is DOA by Narcocide · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are barely any games for it, ...

    This is fantastically inaccurate. As it will play all the games already available for steam on linux (452 at current count) it in fact already has more games than the sum total of launch titles for ALL OTHER CONSOLES EVER. Troll harder, why don't you?

  3. Re:This thing is DOA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it 3D printed? Then it's the future and you're a Luddite for not seeing that.

  4. Re:This thing is DOA by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    And how many 3rd party titles were out before the launch of other consoles?

  5. Re:This thing is DOA by Narcocide · · Score: 2

    Many of them are shitty, that's true, but that list also contains some diamonds-in-the-rough. Some of the Indie game dev houses are unsung heroes and are actually breaking new ground but you just haven't heard of it because there weren't commercials on TV when it happened. Most of these games are also quite cheap, especially compared to the 50-60$ price fixing lock-in enforced by the Big Three console manufacturers. The Valve games stand the test of time too, and if you count them up on their own also outnumber either the Xbox One or the PS4's launch title count, albeit they weren't "new" at launch per-se.

  6. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A very subjective opinion.

    With games like Psychonauts, Bastion, Wasteland, Fez, Frozen Synapse, Brütal Legend, Aquaria, FTL, Super Meat Boy, Stacking, Shank, To The Moon, Hotline Miami, and so many other brilliant games, there are a huge selection of quality launch titles for the Steam Box.

    I'd easily take the Steam Box and its library over current console launch titles.

  7. Re:This thing is DOA by gman003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With so many corporations focused purely on next quarter profits, not thinking even six months ahead, I suppose it's normal for people to not understand the decade-long plans of Valve.

    First off, they're only competing with the PS4/Xb1 by being a couch+TV focused system. They're a fully open system - you can build your own Steam Machine and slap the OS on it. But you'll have a hard time getting a quality machine for less than $500. That's one prong of their long game - erode the Windows tax, and just as importantly, make sure that if Microsoft suddenly fails or turns hostile to PC gaming, they have a way out. But stop thinking of it as "$500 console" (which is basically normal now), and more as a "$500 gaming PC", which is really damn cheap.

    I know what you're about to say - "that's just semantics!". Well, yeah, it is, but it's also the truth. You're not getting a console with fixed hardware being sold below cost so they can make up for it in games or even with later hardware revisions, you're getting an upgradeable, user-accessible system.

    Second, their "launch lineup" is arguably bigger than the Xb1's and PS4's combined. I just did a search on Steam for games with Linux and full controller support - got 58 results, from Metro: Last Light to Super Hexagon. Sure, they're almost all indie or older games, but you know what? I had more fun with Brutal Legend than I did with the last Call of Duty, so maybe that's a good thing. And that's ignoring the fact that a lot of these boxes also have Windows preinstalled as dual-boot, to get you the hundreds of games *that* supports (even with the "on Steam with full controller support" requirement, there's 292 games that meet the mark, including aforementioned latest CoD).

    Third, game support is aimed at long-term growth, not a sudden burst at launch that fails to hold on. Remember how the PS3 was at launch? Decent set of launch games, I suppose, then nearly nothing for a few years. At times I felt like the Gamecube had better third-party support, although looking now the numbers don't back me up. They're not able (or perhaps just not willing) to bribe companies into developing for their hardware, so they basically have to convince them by showing that it's profitable.

    Oh, and every SteamOS game intrinsically has Linux support. Remind me again, before Valve got involved how many developers were releasing Linux ports?

    They've got the hardware guys rallying behind them because removing the Windows tax removes one of the bigger disadvantages from PC gaming. They've got the indie guys rallying behind them. You are correct in that the major third-parties have not yet committed to the platform, but I'm not sure your implied analysis that AAA games are necessary for a platform is correct. If this takes off, it will make new AAA developers from the indies. I wouldn't bet on that, but I'd also not bet against Valve's long game.

  8. Re:Adapter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    PS3 to PC controller adapters have existed for a long time. You can even pair them over Bluetooth if you don't mind using a shady, internet connected driver.

    Much better to just use a 360 controller. No special adapter or driver needed and it's a far superior controller to the Sixaxis.

  9. Tried this today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A solid 20 mins at the press event. I'm a big Valve fanboy, but this just didn't work for me. It didn't feel like a good gamepad replacement, nor a good keyboard/mouse replacement. Tries to replace both, masters neither.

  10. Re:This thing is DOA by maugle · · Score: 1

    Give it time, not everything can change extremely fast, especially on PC where things have pretty much been the same for almost 20 years now.

    Cough sputter- What?! Are you seriously saying that the PC as a gaming platform is roughly the same as in 1994?

    Here's a quick example of the sort of change that's happened:
    In 1994, most PC gaming was still done in DOS, on computers without a dedicated graphics card. Games drew to a framebuffer. There was only a single processor, and there was only a single application running (ignoring Win3.1's cooperative multitasking, but most games required that Windows be shut off first anyway). The application had unfettered access to memory, and when it crashed it usually took the entire system along with it. CD drives were a novelty, and 14.4k modems were all there was in the way of "networked multiplayer", but they tied up the phone line so you couldn't stay on too long.

  11. Re:This thing is DOA by maugle · · Score: 1

    Oh, and also: USB didn't exist. God help you if you were trying to get a serial gamepad to be recognized by a game.

  12. Arm fatigue? Wii solved that already. by tepples · · Score: 1

    A spatial controller could be cool, like the Gyration Air Mouse, but I [w]ould bet Gor[i]lla arm fat[i]gue would be a problem...

    Consider how Nintendo solved the problem of arm fatigue. The Wii Remote can be used with one end balanced on your chair or in your lap. As long as the camera in the controller can see the IR emitters next to your TV, the Wii Remote can detect which way it is pointed.

    1. Re:Arm fatigue? Wii solved that already. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Consider how Nintendo solved the problem of arm fatigue.

      But they didn't. It still happens.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. Re:Adapter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    PS3 to PC controller adapters have existed for a long time.

    It's called 'USB.'

    You can even pair them over Bluetooth if you don't mind using a shady, internet connected driver.

    That's not the only way to do it (and for the love of god, never install Motioninjoy, unless you like the idea of a Chinese program that can execute arbitrary code fetched from a remote server with elevated privileges), and it's only a problem with Windows (thanks Microsoft!)

  14. Backward compatible consoles by tepples · · Score: 1

    And how many 3rd party titles were out before the launch of other consoles?

    I don't have time to go into exact figures, but Wii was backward compatible with GameCube games that didn't use the network adapter. Wii U was backward compatible with all Wii games. Game Boy Color could play Game Boy games, Game Boy Advance could play Game Boy and Game Boy Color games, DS could play Game Boy Advance games, and 3DS could play DS games. PlayStation 2 and 3 could play games for the original PlayStation, and early PlayStation 3 consoles could play PlayStation 2 games. Adapters were available to play Master System games on Genesis and Game Gear, Game Boy games on Super NES, and most Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance games on GameCube.

    And SteamOS is backward compatible with a small set of Steam (for PC) games.

    1. Re:Backward compatible consoles by spire3661 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is some seriously weak troll shit. Steam OS can run a huge swath of emulation too. From MAME to 2600 to Dreamcast and more. Also, In home-streaming is coming, which lets you play the entire catalog of your Win PC games on a SteamOS box.

      --
      Good-bye
  15. WiiWare by tepples · · Score: 1

    Most [indie Steam] games are also quite cheap, especially compared to the 50-60$ price fixing lock-in enforced by the Big Three console manufacturers

    What price fixing? I downloaded a few WiiWare games on Wii Shop, and they were around $10 each.

  16. What makes a gaming platform "better"? by tepples · · Score: 1
    Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Mostly short indie games

    What makes "short" games necessarily inferior, especially at low prices? Even classics like Super Mario Bros. can be completed in six minutes. It's so short that people can run it and re-run it to improve their time for competition.

    all available on better platforms.

    What makes one platform "better" than another in your opinion? Does a gaming platform need a walled garden with restrictive developer qualifications, put in place ostensibly to improve median game quality on reasoning dating back to the 1983 crash, in order to be a "better" platform?

  17. PC Wireless Gaming Receiver by tepples · · Score: 1

    I thought an Xbox 360 controller needed an adapter to turn the controller's proprietary RF signals into USB signals, namely a PC Wireless Gaming Receiver.

    1. Re:PC Wireless Gaming Receiver by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      You can use wired Xbox360 controllers directly.

      --
      Good-bye
  18. Coexistence by tepples · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Steam is a DRM-based platform, I cannot imagine any scenario where it resembles "open".

    For one thing, the Steam DRM platform is designed to coexist with DRM-free games on the same machine. I could take a DRM-free game for Linux and install it on an Ubuntu PC that also has the Steam client installed or on a SteamOS PC. Console DRM, on the other hand, is specifically designed to reject anything DRM-free. For another, it's reportedly easier to get an indie game greenlit on Steam than it was on the seventh-generation consoles. Remember the issues that Robert Pelloni had with his RPG Bob's Game?

    1. Re:Coexistence by ezelkow1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      To add to this, steam doesnt force its drm on any publisher/game creator that doesnt want it. There are plenty of games for purchase on steam that use absolutely no drm, once downloaded you can go to their install dir and run the game executable without steam running just fine. At that point its just another distribution service

    2. Re:Coexistence by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 2

      You should be able to plug your Linux box into a TV using an HDMI port today.

      I don't really see where you are going with this. Few people are going to want a SteamBox because it is Linux, they will want it for the "Steam DRM Service" otherwise they would just use Linux.

      And I can plug my Windows box into my TV today using HDMI and run Steam or free games like your example.

      Maybe there is some non-obvious point you guys are making, but from my perspective you seem exciting about plugging a Linux box into a TV and you are able to do this today and this isn't the point of a Steam Box.

      --
      Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
    3. Re:Coexistence by dbIII · · Score: 3, Informative

      And I can plug my Windows box into my TV today using HDMI

      I already do that but MS Windows sucks dog balls with multi-monitor setups, especially if one is in another room and especially with full screen games or full screen movie playing software.
      For example it sucks to be watching a movie or playing a game when a reboot notification presumably pops up on another screen you can't see, waits for input that never happens, then the fucking thing decides to reboot without the input kicking you out of the game or movie.
      Another is when one of the many things in the MS Windows ecosystem that has it's own update program decided to pop something up in your face to tell you something you do not care about while you are watching a movie or playing a game - bonus points for the ones that minimise your game so you can't get it back without alt-tabbing to it more times than the interface intends (sometimes you get an empty frame but no game graphics).

      Turning off updates, antivirus etc would make it less annoying but is utterly stupid with the current malware swamp infesting the platform - if it's on the net to authenticate the game it had better be patched up to avoid the latest exploits.

      It's almost as if it's deliberately annoying to drive people towards the Xbox, but I'd say it's just poor planning and a diminished care factor. Either way a console or a linux distro (which never forces reboots - if the user doesn't answer the thing doesn't take that as a yes like MS Windows) is far less annoying. Multi screen X, or even how Matrox did multi-screens on MS Windows since at least 2000, is vastly superior to the adhoc dogs breakfast of MS Win7 doing multiple screens, especially with multiple video cards. If they can't learn from methods from more than a decade ago they are just not trying.

    4. Re:Coexistence by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Good point. I really hope that Valve/Steam puts more pressure on publishers to just ditch their DRM options. Steam certainly has the clout to do so.

      However, I don't see this being possible w/o Steam being a monopoly. (not a good thing either) Publishers REALLY want a piece of steams action, and if Steam leans on them too hard, they will just take their ball and make their own distribution systems. Till now, the fact that they suck at distribution systems (as they focus on DRM first, and content delivery second) and that they don't cater to third parties is probably the only things saving us from them.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    5. Re:Coexistence by tepples · · Score: 1

      Another is when one of the many things in the MS Windows ecosystem that has it's own update program decided to pop something up in your face to tell you something you do not care about while you are watching a movie or playing a game

      Then that program has a defect. Standard procedure is to download updates for a program only once the user has chosen to start the program, and then apply them once the user closes the program. For example, if you're watching a movie in VLC, it'd download updates in the background while the movie is playing, and it'd ask for elevation to apply them after you have closed VLC.

    6. Re:Coexistence by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There seems to be a lot with that defect that have an application that checks for updates when the main application is not running. You can stop those updaters from starting with some registry hacks or utility that does the hacks for you but it's a treadmill, since the updaters get added to the startup again when you update the real application.
      It becomes a very annoying environment just at the point where MS were starting to get their shit together.

    7. Re:Coexistence by tepples · · Score: 1

      A program should never automatically initiate a transfer without explicit user consent.

      The administrator gave this consent by having installed the program.

  19. PC and TV in same room by tepples · · Score: 2

    You should be able to plug your Linux box into a TV using an HDMI port today.

    Provided you already have a Linux box with a gaming GPU and a TV-friendly slim chassis, and you already have another computer to use at your desk. A lot of families currently own one PC, and it's in a separate room from the big TV in the living room. True, a SteamOS PC is just a mass-produced set-top gaming PC, but the fact that it's marketed as a set-top gaming PC means it's more likely to come with an appropriate GPU and chassis than your average Office Depot special.

    Few people are going to want a SteamBox because it is Linux, they will want it for the "Steam DRM Service" otherwise they would just use Linux.

    Unless you want to run both commercial games that use Steam and games that aren't (yet) greenlit on Steam without having to buy two machines. Before this push to get Steam on the television, one had to buy two devices to connect to the TV: a PC for the indie games and a console for the major-label games.

    And I can plug my Windows box into my TV today using HDMI

    Again, provided it's in the same room as your TV. See, for example, adolf's comment.

    from my perspective you seem exciting about plugging a Linux box into a TV

    We're excited about manufacturers bucking long-standing tradition and widespread mental sets and actually mass-producing and marketing a Linux gaming box designed for the TV to the general public at a price comparable to current-generation consoles.

  20. Legally getting ROMs into the system by tepples · · Score: 1

    Steam OS can run a huge swath of emulation too. From MAME to 2600 to Dreamcast and more.

    So how do you read the Dreamcast discs, Atari 2600 cartridges, or arcade PCBs on your PC so that you can create ROM images useful in emulators? I know about Retrode, but that's for Super NES and Sega Genesis games, and it seems perpetually sold out.

    1. Re:Legally getting ROMs into the system by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Not this argument again. Nobody cares, they just download, even if it's illegal. In practice you're not going to get in trouble for only doing that.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  21. Steam and the Steambox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Steam were just a service where I could just buy games, I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, what Steam mostly is is DRM. It's obstructionware that insists on being present. I don't like having to wait for it to load, having to wait for it to retry and fail to find a network connection, and having to check "Offline" every single time I run something. I don't like it blowing my mods away, forcing me to do updates, and randomly unsorting and resetting my list of Skyrim mods if I don't save my edits fast enough. Steam DRM kills the Steambox for me, which is very sad because the Steambox is a Windows 8-killing PC in spite of Valve's efforts to try to steer perception away from that.

    1. Re:Steam and the Steambox by Yosho · · Score: 1

      having to wait for it to retry and fail to find a network connection, and having to check "Offline" every single time I run something

      Why don't you either:

      1) Get a stable network connection? or
      2) Just leave it running in the background after you've started it in offline mode so you don't have to go through the oh-so-arduous process of double-clicking on the icon and starting it again?

      And I've never had an issue with it blowing away any of my Skyrim mods, so maybe you're doing something wrong? Try using the Nexus Mod Manager to take care of that.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    2. Re:Steam and the Steambox by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Skyrim is a poor choice of examples there. What's the mod scene for Skyrim on the consoles? Steam's DRM is only annoying if you consider it in a vaccum, but that's a stupid way to look at it. Skyrim hasn't been released without DRM, correct? Without Steam, it would have been on Origin, which is also DRM. Without either, it would have been not released on the PC at all, and you wouldn't have any mods, from what I can tell.

  22. SteamOS now supports... by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

    ...AMD GPUs, apparently. I haven't tried it yet, but I've been waiting to get it set up on a gaming rig I built for our living room.

  23. Re:This thing is DOA by gman003 · · Score: 1

    Awesome, my enemies are forced to resort to puerile ad-hominems. That must mean they can't actually argue with my logic, which means I'm right.

    Either that, or you're just trolling, but you made me feel better so you failed at that as well.

  24. Re:Adapter by lordofthechia · · Score: 1
    --
    Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
  25. It's like buying a short story anthology by tepples · · Score: 1

    Short indie games are short by design.

    True. Compare to fiction: not every novel has to be Rand's Atlas Shrugged or Tolstoy's War and Peace or even Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. Sometimes there's only time for a novella like Wells's The Time Machine or Malhotra's I Moved Your Cheese. And in the same way that one can pick up a short story anthology for the price of a novel, one can pick up a pile of indie games for the same price as a 50-60 USD AAA game.

  26. Re:This thing is DOA by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    Well, most game controllers plugged in to the joystick port (often provided by the sound card). Sure, even that was a bit crusty solution, but worked perfectly for the era.

  27. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 1

    It's not size that matters, but how you play with it. ;-)

    Who is to say that the Steam Box will not be a better platform than current consoles? Let's see what Valve come up with first, before judging.

  28. Re:How many wireless 1st party 360 controllers exi by spire3661 · · Score: 1

    Really? Because in 30 seconds I found 5 places selling it. Amazon can have one to my house by Thursday or i can drive to Frys 15 miles away and have it tomorrow.

    --
    Good-bye
  29. Re:This thing is DOA by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

    The controller is over-engineered and silly, and apparently the SteamBox consoles themselves are going to sell for $500. That's insane. This thing isn't in the same league as an Xbox One or PS4. There are barely any games for it, and barely any announced!

    No, it's not the games that are killing steambox, it's the competition.

    Steamboxes start at $500 and go on up - the initial list I saw, you can get ones that go to $1400+.

    Well shit, you know what? Everyone who wants to buy one (i.e., not you and me, who can install SteamOS on their own PC) will head down to Best Buy and look at it. You can get a PS4. An Xbone. Or a Steambox. Best Buy will probably carry 4 or 5 of them, all with technical gobbledogook of nVidia this, Core i5 that, blah blah blah. And no, Best Buy will not carry one that costs more than $500 because people will just laugh and walk by it.

    And so you have the consumer having to choose the "best" $500 box out of the 4 or 5 in front of them. What will make the choice for them? How it looks. Because they can't make the choice!

    And never mind the whole "Good" "Better" "Ultimate" strategy - the only ones most consumers will see are "Good" because they're priced like the PS4 and Xbone.

    And sure, maybe the first units will sell. But take it two years later, and "Good" no longer is adequate - they're going to see people with PS4s and Xbones playing games, while they're stuck with a new SteamBox purchase or run in "Crappy" mode.

    End result - developers will bitch about PS4 and Xbone graphics holding them back, but also first-gen Steamboxes as well,if they want the platform to be viable because the consumer is not going to be buying a new one in a couple of years. And no, they're not going to spend $100 to put in a new video card either ($150 with Geek Squad!).

    We saw it this time around - the PS3 and Xbox 360 holding PC graphics back. The Steambox is an obvious attempt to revitalizing PC gaming (most AAA titles are ported from consoles, and if you're lucky, they release same day) as well as giving developers freedom to use high end graphics again.

    And nevermind when instead of Tier 3 PC manufacturers (i.e., OEM assemblers) you have Tier 1 (they make it all - they design their own motherboards, etc) integrating all but the video card on a single board, removing excess parts, and selling what was a $500 SteamBox for $400. Or slapping it all together so its not swappable on a single board for $350.

    The steambox is trying to put choice into consoles, which is the whole reason consoles exist - you go to the store, you buy it, you play it for many years and they're all the same. When you have now a dozen manufacturers with a dozen different models, and probably a half dozen more cheaper ones coming out, suddenly it doesn't look so easy for the consumer anymore.

  30. Could it be improved by... by csoh · · Score: 1

    attaching some additional pieces of hardware like some rubber, plastic pad, spring ,small stick to make it behave like real joystick? I remember that there were some hobby projects to make something attached to MSX numpad to make it work like joystick long long ago.

  31. Mode of failure makes little sense in a home by dbIII · · Score: 1

    I don't see the big deal about running HDMI cables unless they are very long. I have no hassles with ten metres and really can't see any prospect of any unless there are a lot of machine tools or other sources of a lot of intense electromagnetic noise around. Washing machine motors etc shouldn't put out enough to be a hassle even if you loop the cable around it.

    1. Re:Mode of failure makes little sense in a home by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Cat5 cable isn't shielded.

  32. Re:This thing is DOA by N1AK · · Score: 3, Funny

    Not sure if emotionally stunted whiny cunt or troll...

  33. Re:This thing is DOA by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

    Never heard of any of them. Are you sure they're as famous as you think they are?

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  34. Re:This thing is DOA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's fine and all, if you're ok with games that you have already been playing for years and shitty indie titles.

  35. Re:This thing is DOA by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Maybe you should branch out. Just because a game doesn't have some shitty pre-movie trailer at the cinema doesn't mean it's not a great game. I highly suggest Bastion and Psychonauts for some actual unique and very intriguing story telling.

  36. Re:This thing is DOA by jma05 · · Score: 2

    None of them warrant a $599 SteamBox purchase to play them. Most of them are laptop (with integrated graphics) material. Now if someone brought out a SteamBox in Ouya price range (at least for starters), it would make sense.

  37. Re:Adapter by TuxThePenguin2205 · · Score: 1

    You can on Linux. I have enjoyed playing Fez and Super Meat Boy that way. For some reason Trine2 doesn't like it but so far that is the only game I've found that has any issues.

  38. Re:This thing is DOA by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

    With games like Psychonauts, Bastion, Wasteland, Fez, Frozen Synapse, Brütal Legend, Aquaria, FTL, Super Meat Boy, Stacking, Shank, To The Moon, Hotline Miami,

    Aren't those games "already" on various consoles? So why favor the Steambox, which isn't even on the shelves yet, when you can already have those games on a PS3/Xbox360.

  39. Re:This thing is DOA by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

    You forgot to mention boot floppies. Far to many /.ers still twitch when remembering having to tweak autoexec.bat and config.sys to get Tie Fighter to run.

    --
    Redundancy is good And also good.
  40. Re:How many wireless 1st party 360 controllers exi by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Uhh, no, you're just wrong. They are being sold everywhere. Not only at Fry's, but at Best Buy, Walmart and Gamestop too, if you're stuck in the past and need a physical store for some bizarre reason.

    I can only speak to the walmart and gamestop nearest me, and they don't stock new wired controllers and the gamestop seldom has a used one.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  41. Re:This thing is DOA by binarylarry · · Score: 1

    QQ

    --
    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  42. First vs. third party by tepples · · Score: 1

    The Best Buy, Walmart, and GameStop stores near me had wired controllers when I checked a month and a half ago, but they were all third-party. All first-party controllers I could find were wireless. And even if wired first-party controllers were more widely available, that doesn't help someone who already owns several wireless controllers.

  43. Inducement per MGM v. Grokster by tepples · · Score: 1

    An individual who runs pirated ROMs on a gaming PC is unlikely to get in trouble. A company that makes and sells gaming PCs and markets them on their ability to run pirated ROMs is far more likely to get in trouble for inducing copyright infringement. MGM v. Grokster.

  44. Cutting holes through the wall by tepples · · Score: 1

    I don't see the big deal about running HDMI cables unless they are very long.

    From one room to another, they would be very long, and not everybody has both permission and inclination to cut holes in the wall to run the cable. The advantage of a console or set-top PC is that you don't have to negotiate with your landlord for permission to break the walls, and you don't have to pay an electrician to pull the cable through the wall if local laws require it, and you don't have to also pull USB, which requires a repeater every 5 m, for the game controllers, and someone else can be using the PC for surfing the web while you're gaming.

    1. Re:Cutting holes through the wall by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Fair enough in a lot of cases but I just don't buy the argument about electrical interference.
      I don't see anything wrong with ten metre or so HDMI cables so long as it is convenient to do so. You are correct that USB would be impractical beyond 10m since the cheap extenders don't chain and the expensive ones make you wonder why you aren't spending that money on the set top pc you are describing.

      The main reason I don't have a PC near the TV is if it has to have the grunt to play new 3D games (or even h264 when it came out) then it has to be relatively expensive and have plenty of cooling. Big fans are not so much of a hassle if they are ten metres away from where you are sitting with a wall in the way.
      Of course with MS Windows one user interferes with the other out but in X you can have two keyboards and mice. MS Windows also tends to put things up on the screen in the room that you are not in, such as notifications that the thing is going to reboot, so such a setup has annoyances in MS Win7.

  45. Re:This thing is DOA by Archibald+Buttle · · Score: 1

    WRONG! You can play XBox 360 games on the Xbox one.

    This is not true. They're completely different platforms with no backwards compatibility at all. Same as PS3/PS4.

  46. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 1

    Seriously? You've never heard of Tim Schafer? Double Fine Productions, previously LucasArts? Tim is responsible for absolute classic games like Secret of Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango, and of course, Psychonauts, Brütal Legend, and Stacking, from my list.

    Super Meat Boy and Fez? They are very high profile indie games. Creators and games were also the subject of an excellent documentary: Indie Game: The Movie.

    Wasteland. Created by Interplay Productions, and used as the basis for Fallout. You must have heard about the Fallout series of games, surely!

    Bastion, To The Moon. More high profile indie games.

    Actually, I didn't create my list with the idea that these games were famous. My criteria was more about quality. These are _excellent_ games. Very much recommended to play. It's just coincidence that some are well known. Anyone with a decent knowledge of gaming culture would know the all. I didn't even mention any of Valve's own games.

  47. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 1

    True, you don't need a high powered machine to play these, although I'd recommend something more than integrated graphics for some of them. Valve's own games, which I didn't mentioned, would certainly benefit from more power.

    Steam Machines will be created by many different manufacturers. So who knows, maybe one will be priced around the Ouya range. Time will tell.

  48. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 1

    Some of these are on consoles. Some are exclusive to specific consoles. Some are only available on PC.

    They're all available on Steam, and playable on Linux.

  49. Re:This thing is DOA by gman003 · · Score: 1

    It only came out on PC at all in 2013, which is when I played it. Mac+Linux support lagged only two months behind Windows support.

    And I used it as an example both because it's still one of the bigger-name and higher-price Linux games, and because I really enjoyed that game and will name-drop it given the slightest excuse.

  50. Re:Adapter by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

    I think windows doesn't know how to handle standard Bluetooth devices. On osx you just plug up the controller and hit the PS button and it auto pairs.

    --
    Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  51. Authors of decades-old shareware demand iMoney by tepples · · Score: 1

    True, a PC maker could bundle something like Midway Arcade Treasures or Namco Museum with new PCs. But there are a lot of old games whose copyright ownership has become untraceable over the decades. And even for games whose copyright owner is still in business, there are still a lot of copyright owners who either are entirely unwilling to license or insist on unreasonable royalties, as Hairyfeet discovered when he tried to do much as you suggest.

  52. Steambox One costs no more than the Xbox One by tepples · · Score: 1

    Fair enough in a lot of cases but I just don't buy the argument about electrical interference.

    Laws that require hiring a bonded electrician to install HDMI, USB, or Ethernet likely exist as a safety (or safety theater) measure arising from the 115 or 220 volt (depending on region) AC lines in the walls.

    The main reason I don't have a PC near the TV is if it has to have the grunt to play new 3D games (or even h264 when it came out) then it has to be relatively expensive and have plenty of cooling.

    Manufacturers of SteamOS PCs claim to have solved the cost and cooling problems. This preview of iBuyPower's Steam Machine guesses a price on par with that of the Xbox One.

    1. Re:Steambox One costs no more than the Xbox One by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      The main reason I don't have a PC near the TV is if it has to have the grunt to play new 3D games (or even h264 when it came out) then it has to be relatively expensive and have plenty of cooling.

      Manufacturers of SteamOS PCs claim to have solved the cost and cooling problems. This preview of iBuyPower's Steam Machine guesses a price on par with that of the Xbox One.

      Cooling doesn't have to be noisy. To be fair, my dual-core 3.2GHz Phenom II, GTX460 isn't the latest and greatest, but the TDP is up there and requires a decent amount of cooling. According to the sound meter on my phone (which is probably inaccurate), the noise level is 2-3dBA above ambient noise, sitting at my desk right next to the PC. Hard drive search noise is subjectively the most apparent, and it's still very mild due to vibration-damped mounting and could be solved completely by either using quiet laptop drives or SSDs. Heck, I'm even using the stock AMD CPU cooler, which is surprisingly quiet when you let the motherboard control its speed.

      I make do with a well-designed case and some very quiet fans running at reduced voltage. Antec make some really nice cases for quiet computing, with layered panels, vibration-damped hard drive mounting etc., and I've found that BeQuiet! makes some of the best quiet fans that still provide good airflow.

      Building a quiet yet decently-powered computer is not hard, you just have to start with the right components, and the case+fans+PSU are the most important by far. The case needs to be steel, relatively heavy to dampen vibrations, have multi-layered panels and soft rubber feet. It also needs to have space for large fans, the bigger the better. 120mm or even 140mm are prefereable, since they can still deliver good airflow when running at 7v instead of 12v for reduced noise. It also matters a lot to have the inside of the case as free of clutter as possible, the time taken to properly route cables really pays off in the end.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  53. Is SecuROM ported to Linux yet? by tepples · · Score: 1

    I really hope that Valve/Steam puts more pressure on publishers to just ditch their DRM options.

    PCs that ship with SteamOS are probably pressure enough, as a lot of these third-party digital restrictions management libraries aren't ported to the Debian GNU/Linux operating system that underlies SteamOS. As far as I can tell, the only StarForce I can get on Linux is an early NES shoot-em-up by Tecmo, dumped from the Game Pak with the INL Retro copier.

    However, I don't see this being possible w/o Steam being a monopoly.

    Once the iBuyPower Steam Machine comes out, SteamOS will have a (temporary?) monopoly on mass-produced set-top gaming PCs.

  54. You're kidding me by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Laws that require hiring a bonded electrician to install HDMI

    Are you actually being serious or is that some hysterical "the other tribe is creating a nanny state" bullshit?

  55. Parts of Australia require two licences by tepples · · Score: 1

    I lack the time to search through current city codes worldwide, but this answer to a question on Server Fault and this forum post and these comments to a Lifehacker article claim that at least one Australian state requires that even licensed electricians need or needed a separate data cabling licence.

    1. Re:Parts of Australia require two licences by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'm in Australia and can assure you that such a thing is utter bullshit.

  56. Re:This thing is DOA by deek · · Score: 1

    Gosh. Tough crowd. Do you heckle professionally, or is it just a casual thing?

    Of course I cherry picked! That was the basis of my list: show great games that are playable on SteamBox / Linux. Way to miss the point.

    Interesting that you singled out Psychonauts, as that often gets criticism for the difficulty of the Meat Circus level, supposedly ruining the game for many. I didn't mind it myself, but I can see their point. The insane asylum levels, and Lungfishopolis, are some of the most blindingly brilliant and creative game levels! Blows my mind. What a great game!

    As for the other games on the list ... they cover such a wide spectrum of gameplay, you can be excused for not having the good taste to appreciate them. ;-)

  57. No - licence for power and training for cabling by dbIII · · Score: 1

    The people commenting on that article have got it mixed up with electrical cabling even though they pretend that they have not. My nephew has just started an apprenticeship as an electrician and he can run ethernet cable unsupervised. The voltage and current is far too low for the electrical safety standards to apply at all.
    There is of course a training course for cabling but it's not a requirement. It's just a convenience for employers that don't want a fully fledged electrician but want someone with a clue about cabling. I can, and have legally run cable through commercial office buildings but it's usually more convenient to get electricians to do it since they have the ladders and are good at it.

    1. Re:No - licence for power and training for cabling by tepples · · Score: 1

      But it's still a lot more convenient for anyone but a hardcore geek to buy a console than to pull HDMI and USB cable through the wall. The commercial success of consoles shows that the majority of people are willing to spend the money and accept the limited game selection as payment for the convenience. Steam Machines add a mass-produced set-top gaming PC as a third option.

    2. Re:No - licence for power and training for cabling by dbIII · · Score: 1

      True, but where convenient it works, say if the PC is just in the next room or in a house with very easy underfloor access. A dedicated PC or console may be overkill if you just want to watch movies in a format that the normal hardware associated with the TV can't handle.
      For games I'm getting the impression that a dedicated console is nearly always superior to a MS Windows PC at this point.

  58. HTPC in a box; mods by tepples · · Score: 1

    Lots of people are too lazy to setup an HTPC.

    This is exactly the problem that PCs that ship with SteamOS are intended to fix, by providing a home theater PC in a box.

    Lots of people actually like Apple's walled garden

    Why? Is it a perception that restrictive developer qualifications are correlated with higher median quality of applications, or is it something else?

    or accept that Windows (8) PC as that's the only thing the big name store carries.

    That and their pragmatist friends and relatives have told them that Windows 8 can be tamed. Windows Vista too had become acceptable after Mojave (Windows Vista Service Pack 1) shipped.

    and when they say "I want to play games in the living room, the LCD response is PS4/XBONE or even the Wii U

    So what is the response to "I want to play game X with mod Y in the living room"? For example, third parties have made mods to Oblivion and Skyrim that make the experience much more enjoyable than vanilla versions by nerfing certain annoying mechanics. But the console versions tend not to allow mods to nearly the same extent as PC versions. The only recent console game I'm aware of with thorough mods has been Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and that's because security on the original Wii was cracked so quickly.

    Linux/SteamOS will be a more viable option alongside the other platforms, hopefully at least more viable than... the Mac (oh god the pessimist in me is now even more skeptical)

    I was under the impression that a port to Linux would make a port to OS X more viable because both Linux and OS X use OpenGL graphics.

  59. Need upgrade anyway; iPad lacks disc drive by tepples · · Score: 1

    [Most gamers don't see lack of selection and lack of mods on Apple, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony platforms as] a serious enough problem to be fixed by upgrading/switching

    New games not coming out for PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 anymore is another problem. Should a gamer solve that by upgrading to PlayStation 4, by upgrading to Xbox One, or by upgrading to a Steam Machine? The Steam Machine would solve not only lack of new games for the old platform but also lack of selection and lack of mods.

    And this is where "games and Office" tips in the favor of Windows.

    LibreOffice is available for Windows and Linux. If you meant specifically Microsoft Office, that costs hundreds of USD extra anyway. And if you're going to be naming names, you could make the same argument about iWork or Final Cut: a PC isn't good enough, and you have to buy a Mac. And once you've bought a Mac mini, you already have something that can run Steam games for Mac and can be connected to a TV.

    I suspect many parents will be skeptical of the Steam machine as a living room console (I'm switching context to consoles now) as (AFAIK) there are no discs.

    How does Apple's iPad get away with not having discs? How do a lot of laptops? Do most people still prefer to buy a USB DVD burner for a PC and use it to rip CDs in iTunes? I know there still exist 70-year-old grandmas who prefer to use mix CDs as the physical embodiment of a playlist because it's something they can hold in their hands. But you can't even do that for books, video, or apps.

    there are people (so many that MS relented) who just wants to walk in a store

    Getting to the store depends on whether your city cleans up the road after a major snowstorm faster than your Internet provider restores service after the same snowstorm. I, for one, didn't lose power or Internet during the recent storm, but a snow emergency was declared in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And if you do end up losing power, you're screwed either way. But I'll grant that disc-based consoles are better for rural gamers, who usually can't get cable or fiber Internet.

  60. Getting a game greenlit on Steam vs. consoles by tepples · · Score: 1

    Well, in my definition of gamer, a gamer should upgrade to as many systems he can afford that has the games he wants to play. And keep his old ones around if they still work, removing them only after emulation/backwards compatibility is available

    How many daisy-chained composite and HDMI switch boxes would it take to keep a PlayStation 2, GameCube, PlayStation 3, PlayStation 4, and Wii U running, as well as an NES, Genesis, Super NES, and Nintendo 64 for games not on Virtual Console?

    This means, a person sticking to a PS4/XBONE can get his Sony or MS exclusives, but not miss out on "SteamBox exclusives", as that's not a thing.

    There are plenty of games that are exclusive to Steam, such as games from a developer that is not yet licensed for PlayStation 4 or Xbox One. Is it easier to get a game greenlit on Steam or on the consoles? (This ties into your comment about using Steam to gain experience.) Besides, like other X11/Linux PCs, SteamOS PCs run non-Steam games made for X11/Linux, such as the X11/Linux version of a PC game that uses multiple gamepads from a not-yet-console-licensed developer.

    The value added from mods is extra, on top of the value that the original game has.

    Tell that to anyone who bought Half-Life just for Counter-Strike or a Source game for Garry's Mod. Or are you claiming that this demographic is financially insignificant?

    How does Apple's iPad get away with not having discs? How do a lot of laptops?

    They aren't sold to be used in the living room with a big screen?

    I'll consider that once you explain what screen size has to do with software distribution media. Netflix, Hulu Plus, Amazon Instant Video, and video on demand from the cable company doesn't use discs yet play on a TV.

  61. Re:This thing is DOA by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

    Ouya launched with 104 indie titles, way more than XBone or PS4, and nobody cares because 90% of gamers only care about AAA titles, and 9% of gamers mostly care about AAA titles. Bully for Steam if this does take off, but as it is currently it would be a very poor choice as your principle gaming system, and it doesn't show particularly much promise to develop into something larger than the Ouya. Maybe if they can get a box out for $200, and a selection of popular games, non-nerds would be interested. Until then, it's a solution in search of a problem, where the principle attraction is old-ass games you could play on a laptop, but still costs a lot of money and is a bear to set up.

    Also, "long term thinking" is basically how the console industry works, with consoles sold at a loss to corner the market over the long term. Even a very successful console isn't expected to earn money for a few years.

    --
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