New Home Automation?

conduit in anticipation by EthanBernard · 2014-01-13 13:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

Place thin wall plastic conduit, as big a diameter as you can fit, within the walls between rooms in anticipation of whatever future technology you might have to route through there.

Re:conduit in anticipation by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2014-01-13 14:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

And start by running two CAT-5 and two coax cables to each WALL in every room. Yeah. Yeah wireless... Yeah, whatever. Run the cables.
Re:conduit in anticipation by bob_super · 2014-01-13 14:27 · Score: 5, Informative

Start using them by running two CAT-6, a pair of multimode, and if you can afford it (4000ft2?) a pair of singlemode fiber. Don't need to connect them yet, just have enough space for outlets.
At least two of these conduits per room, opposite walls/corners. At least one conduit to each outside wall of the house (put power in these ones too, not everything is PoE). Maybe one more conduit to the top of each outside wall if you want to add cameras-over-IP out of reach, while keeping regular plugs low.
Ideally you'd have all the conduits lead to two different rooms/closets/hidden_panels, in case you have to modify the house in the future, or if you expect people to come grabbing, whether they knock with a warrant or break the window.
Re:conduit in anticipation by immaterial · 2014-01-13 14:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

If he's running conduit there's no reason whatsoever to run all those unnecessary cables through it. The whole point of conduit is it makes it possible to pull whatever you need if and when you need it. I have conduit to at least three walls of each room in my house but I've only pulled cat 6 and tv cable to the specific walls I need at the moment. Why waste the money installing useless cable?
Re:conduit in anticipation by bob_super · 2014-01-13 14:51 · Score: 2

Agreed, but if you roll the cost of the single-mode into the house, it doesn't need to be re-budgeted when you find that 10GE (or in a few years 100GE) router that you absolutely have to have.
If this slashdotter has a significant other (at 4000ft2, you'd hope), that may not be a negligible thing. Not having to spend a few hours measuring and pulling it (unless you terminate your own fiber) may make it worth having a few strands that will never be used.
Did I mention having enough power near the conduits for the Christmas lights?
And if you really want to show off, have an expanded-beam fiber connector on a panel outside and/or in your garage... because 100GE to the pool is even cooler if you can hose the plug clean.
Re:conduit in anticipation by grub · 2014-01-13 14:52 · Score: 5, Funny

While he's at it, he may as well install some Twinax in case someone with an AS/400 comes for a visit and needs some Token Ring love.

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Re:conduit in anticipation by mhotchin · 2014-01-13 15:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Don't forget outside! At the very *least*, run conduit to the end of the driveway if it's any length - at least two, so you can run power and low voltage stuff (code usually forbids running both in the same conduit). Access for the deck etc also useful.
It doesn't hurt to run some other access points out the house as well, to help with future dev. I put in a carport, and the *one* available conduit coming out of the house made power and a camera possible. We have concrete sidewalk al around the house, so getting wires from the outside to the inside is very difficult now.
For music / audio about the house, you usually want access to the ceiling of each room, so you might want to think about conduit for that as well. Our house had wire installed, but not the right type - we had to live with it since I didn't want to rip out ceilings and walls everywhere.
Re:conduit in anticipation by cheater512 · 2014-01-13 16:13 · Score: 2

Run the antenna to a TV Tuner with Myth on it. Perfect for sending it to multiple places around the house at once.
Re:conduit in anticipation by ChrisMaple · 2014-01-13 16:25 · Score: 2

Put a fish in each conduit.

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Re:conduit in anticipation by Charcharodon · 2014-01-13 17:03 · Score: 5, Informative

You are correct, instead of running the wires, just run a length of string/cord through, that way later if you decide you want a run then just tie it off and pull it through. Don't forget to add another piece of cord along with the cable you are running!
Re:conduit in anticipation by MikeBabcock · 2014-01-13 17:04 · Score: 5, Informative

Update that to three CAT-6 + 1 coax, and you're doing well. Most signals can be piggybacked on CAT-6 these days (including HDMI and USB) so make those connections easily cross-connected and well labelled.

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Re:conduit in anticipation by auzy · 2014-01-13 23:22 · Score: 4, Informative

I work for a company who installs automation here in Australia (Mox BI VIC). Firstly, the good thing is that you have the opportunity to decide how you want to wire things now if the house isn't built.
1) Start by Wiring back the TPS for lights, downlights, and power points to a single rack. This means that you wont need to crack open the wall to change to a new tech in the future, even if you plan to use a retrofitable system. I cry a little when I see a new house being built, and a retrofitable technology tacked on. Structuring the wiring will make all the difference in the future.
2) Wireless technologies such as Z-Wave are great, however, keep in mind that technologies running on 2.4GHZ need to accept interference. If the idiot neighbors run a baby monitor on those frequencies, and you get dropouts, you cannot sue them, or force them to change. For that reason, only use wireless technologies for retrofits if possible (for multicolored lights, they may need to realistically be wireless though). Do not design a system that will rely on it (except for iPad/iPhone AV control).
3), Run more CAT5/CAT6 than you think you need. And keep in mind, CAT6A theoretically can run up to 10gbit/s up to 37m. There is higher quality unofficial standards such as CAT7A available, however, only install them if you have the money (because, they aren't official, and may not add any real benefit, but are nice to have).
4) Have a 15A socket in the garage. UPS's work better with it, and, in an automated home, it might be nice to have control of some features.. Also, try to get a high-amperage TPS run to the garage (for electric cars potentially in the future).
5) Single story house is TONS less painful for future changes than double. If you are doing double, be doubly sure that the wiring downstairs is right. You might not get a second chance without tearing serious holes in plaster (which we have had to do in a few systems to add/change extra functionality the client later wanted).
6) Run at least 3 Ethernets to every TV. You might want a matrix switch later, and you may also want to control your TV's. If you run a single CAT5 to each TV, you might regret it..
7) You might want electric blinds... Keep that in mind.. You may also want gate lock and front/back door to be openable via intercom.
8) The last problem is wall switches. Unfortunately, many common protocols at this time use a Bus wired system (we use CANBUS, which is utilised in cars also). If you run 6-core security wire in a chain to each point, and RJ45 back to the central rack, you should be covered (albeit, in an expensive way).
9) Pick a standard with an open protocol. To be honest, many protocols can be reverse engineered (it just takes time). If you have the protocol though, even if you pick a standard that dies, it may be possible to develop a software bridge that bridges between 2 protocols, and slowly phase parts of the system out.
Obviously, I am biased, but I recommend MOX Canbus (as I know MOX is committed to the system for the long haul), but, ultimately, the system you choose will also depend on your country anyway (because, it needs to be electrically approved in that country anyway).
Re:conduit in anticipation by RabidReindeer · 2014-01-13 23:44 · Score: 3, Informative

Place thin wall plastic conduit, as big a diameter as you can fit, within the walls between rooms in anticipation of whatever future technology you might have to route through there.
I didn't really know what I needed until the house was completed. If I'd had it to do over again, I'd have paid more attention to what runs down the external walls.
I have enough attic clearance to run whatever new cabling I need to interior walls, but the pitch of the roof is such that dropping anything new down an outside wall would probably require opening up the roof in that area. Not enough clearance inside the attic.
Re:conduit in anticipation by RulerOf · 2014-01-14 00:20 · Score: 2

Did I mention having enough power near the conduits for the Christmas lights?
Heh. The best thing I ever read on a box of Christmas lights was this year, on the side of an LED strand: "connect up to 87 units end-to-end."

He shouldn't have to worry about this one :D

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Re:conduit in anticipation by AmiMoJo · 2014-01-14 00:42 · Score: 2

If the idiot neighbors run a baby monitor on those frequencies
Calling someone an idiot for buying an off-the-shelf FCC certified product to monitor their child's health just because it interferes with your gadgets that run in the same unlicensed frequency band is a bit harsh.
The OP might want to consider what he makes the walls of his house out of though. Faraday cage on the outside, lots of 5GHz access points on the inside.

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Re:conduit in anticipation by tobiasly · 2014-01-14 04:11 · Score: 2

If he's running conduit there's no reason whatsoever to run all those unnecessary cables through it. The whole point of conduit is it makes it possible to pull whatever you need if and when you need it. I have conduit to at least three walls of each room in my house but I've only pulled cat 6 and tv cable to the specific walls I need at the moment. Why waste the money installing useless cable?
Because maybe then some broadband company later on will come buy up all your dark fiber. Profit!
Re:conduit in anticipation by Jarik+C-Bol · 2014-01-14 09:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

And this is how you put the cord in the conduit. You tie a plastic bag to the end of the cord (which should be on a good spool), stick it in the conduit, and then hook a shop vac hose to the far end. Most people cut a clear soda bottle to use as an adapter between the shop vac hose and the conduit. The result is, the vac pulls the bag (and the cord) through the conduit, and when you see the bag land in the bottle, you shut the thing off. I saw someone pull over a run over 100 feet long, buried underground that way,(not digging that up to add cord) and it worked like a charm.

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Re:WTF? by Nutria · 2014-01-13 13:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

WTF do you need to ask questions that are really none of your business?

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Z-Wave by tftp · 2014-01-13 13:41 · Score: 5, Informative

Z-Wave is the only one that you want to have. Insteon is not very reliable, being dependent on power lines for signaling (at low baud rate, to make things worse) and nothing else can compare to these two.

Z-Wave is entirely RF-based and requires no wiring. However make sure you have plenty of Ethernet everywhere because you will want to have Ethernet-connected sensors such as the power meter, the solar inverter, and a bunch more - plan for those ahead of time.

Plan also for video cameras for security and Ethernet cables to them for IP (or coaxial cables if you pick analog cameras.) You will need entry/exit keypad controllers to operate things (don't know what kind of property you got.) Basically, plan everything before they are done with framing. Make sure all wires are in steel conduits, so that they are protected from Mickey Mouse. You will need live + neutral + protective ground everywhere.

Re:Z-Wave by hawguy · 2014-01-13 14:01 · Score: 2

IMO ethernet AND coax should go to each living space, possibly two (or more) outlets of each for bigger areas. I had both installed in each non bathroom area in my house after having to gut the walls after a fire and it's been remarkably convenient and useful. Most important, good inter-connected battery-powered fire alarms, possibly fire suppression (sprinklers) and good insurance.
I wouldn't bother pulling coax unless you have a known use for it -- all of my video comes in over IP (delivered wirelessly to the TV's). I actually have ethernet (Cat-5 or 5E) in the walls in most rooms, but don't have a use for it, I can stream ripped DVD's over Wifi from the fileserver upstairs to the TV downstairs.
Though I would run conduit with a pull-string as others recommended.
Re:Z-Wave by Nkwe · 2014-01-13 14:12 · Score: 2

Z-Wave is the only one that you want to have. Insteon is not very reliable, being dependent on power lines for signaling (at low baud rate, to make things worse) and nothing else can compare to these two.
If you think you might ever want to use Insteon (which does have some issues, but has some cool features as well), make sure you include a neutral to all of your wall switch boxes. Typical house wiring carries the hot and neutral lines between the ceiling fixtures and drops only a hot "send" and hot "return" to the wall switch. The cost before you close the walls of running 14-3 over 14-2 wire to the wall switches is minimal, the cost of changing after you close the walls is high.

As others have said, run coax and Ethernet from a central location to each room and consider running empty conduit from a central location to each room as well to handle whatever future wires you may want.

Consider running alarm wire to every window and door to support physical alarm switches (either mechanical or magnetic reed). Hardwired alarm switches are generally better than wireless (more secure, look nicer / better hidden, don't need batteries, and cheaper (if installed before you close the walls))

Not really an automation thing, but central vacuum is cool.
Re:Z-Wave by djrobxx · 2014-01-13 14:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you think you might ever want to use Insteon (which does have some issues, but has some cool features as well), make sure you include a neutral to all of your wall switch boxes.
You want this for Z-wave also. There are two-wire Z-wave switches, but they usually require an incandescent bulb. To expand on this a bit - make sure that lighting switches are wired with a constant hot and neutral, and separate load wiring. Usually this means the line and load's neutrals and grounds are tied together in the switch box, and the hot is switched. There are some other more creative ways to do lighting circuits that make things more of a pain when trying to replace switches.
If you can, get the electrician to label the load wire (the one that runs to the light). That can sometimes be a pain to figure out if there's only line and load in a single gang box. I also second the suggestion for alarm wiring. Figure you want motion sensors and wires to every door and window run to some central location. Changing the batteries on these is a big pain if you have a lot of sensors, and the sensors can also be part of your automation logic.
Re:Z-Wave by Joe_Dragon · 2014-01-13 14:51 · Score: 2

cable boxes and satellite need coax to the box. Also some channels are locked down with HDCP.
Re:Z-Wave by kriston · 2014-01-13 14:59 · Score: 2

Yes, coaxial cable is absolutely required. Don't skimp. It has more bandwidth and it's 100% reliable.
When I renovated the basement, I bought a spool of quad-shield dual-line RG-6 cable with copper core and ran it to every wall in the basement and to every wall on the main floor. Then I ran a pair to every bedroom since I was able to use a riser to the attic. Then used a high-frequency splitter in the basement. This is how you get whole-house DVR working properly.
You *want* to have RG-6 copper-core cable to each point in addition to ethernet. You need it for all home television service. No matter cable, FiOS/fiber, U-verse, or IP-TV, they all use MoCa to communicate with the other TVs and you want to have that. Satellite also needs two cables to each point.
Plus your home DVR solution, whether cable, satellite, will use the RG-6 cable with MoCa to distribute the video to your TVs. The MoCa connection will be the only one that will allow you to reliably distribute non-buffered HDTV to all televisions in the house from a whole-house DVR. FiOS, for one, requires it.
RG-6 is not for analog--it's for modern televisions of all types.

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Kriston

Run Everything to a Low Voltage / Electrical Close by DanSSJ4 · 2014-01-13 13:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Make sure you run everything, Coax, Cat5/6, Lighting Electrical, Alarms, etc. to a single Telco Closet, or one on each floor.
The biggest problem is usually having to run or rerun wires after construction do to poor planning.

Also put at least one Ethernet jack in every room. Wireless is subject to interference from neighbors, other 2.4 & 5 ghz devices, etc. plus you get use them for video, audio, etc. in the future if necessary.

That is where I would start, that way if you find later that you overlooked something, or decide to change some automation devices you will have the flexibility to do so.

I like the Bayweb Thermostats, it is easy to manage multiple HVAC units, which you will certainly have with a house that size.

Re:WTF? by hawguy · 2014-01-13 13:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

WTF do you need to ask questions that are really none of your business?

Since we all live on a planet with finite resources, overconsumption of limited resources is everyone's business.

Clap on! Clap off! by pcwhalen · 2014-01-13 13:45 · Score: 3, Funny

I've fallen, and I can't get up! [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ ]

Boy, I'm old.

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Don't. by ddt · 2014-01-13 13:46 · Score: 5, Informative

Ever lived in a house with a built-in intercom? Find yourself using it? Don't feel bad. No one else does, either.

For long-term value, try to resist the urge to automate it today. Lasting value will come from routing high quality, shielded cables both for data and power to multiple outlets in every room as well as creating strong rooms and creating lots of easily accessible, strong mount points where you can install things you'd like to automate with whatever the latest and greatest tech is. They might be mounts for motors for pulleys for shades or mount points for light fixtures or for a robotic arm that changes your baby's diapers or a landing pad for flying bot that fetches you snacks from the kitchen. The thing is, tech is changing *so* ridiculously fast now, that no matter what you choose today, it's going to be not only obsolete in no time, but in all probability some kind of maintenance and even security liability later.

If you design those mount points in to look attractive instead of like nubs of unfinished 2x4, that's going to be the real art of making a house that a hacker can thrive in but that can improve continuously over time and that can be of value to someone in the market for a house 10-20 years later. Goes without saying, but removable wall panels are also a great way to make a house far more maintainable into the future.

Re: Don't. by pcwhalen · 2014-01-13 14:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Guy I know is a builder. Has a closet on the top floor of his house that opens into a crawlway [lighted with LED lamps] leading to each room on the top floor. There are 2 large pieces of PVC pipe with wiring running in and out. One is to the 1st floor room below and the other is to the 2d story room beneath. There is a set of 2 larger PVC pipes that lead to the basement and electrical switching and panels. He has a strand of fish tape [http://www.harborfreight.com/50-ft-fish-tape-38156.html] in each to facilitate pulling wires.
He said it doubled the cost of wiring the house, but it has future proofed any wiring or room access needs.
He is a guy with a lot of money and WAY too much time on his hands, but I thought it was cool. He shows it off at cocktail parties. 7,000 sq. ft. house, sold it for 4 times the cost to build it 6 years earlier.

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Re: Don't. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-13 14:29 · Score: 4, Informative

A space for running pipes vertically is called a chase. Be careful, a chase is also a way for a fire to very easily get from the basement to the attic.
Re:Don't. by JoeMerchant · 2014-01-13 15:32 · Score: 4, Funny

>Ever lived in a house with a built-in intercom? Find yourself using it?
I did, I never would have installed it myself, but since it was there, yeah, we used it, and would have used it more if it had decent sound quality.
That was a uniquely laid out house, 2800sf in a sort of U shape - intercom went from one tip of the U to the other - beat the hell out of waving your arms frantically in the window to get attention followed up by charades / sign language, which we also did sometimes when the intercom was on the fritz.
Re: Don't. by DerekLyons · 2014-01-13 20:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

I was about to say the same thing - chases are dangerous, that's why they have specific regulations in the fire code.
And that brings up another thing... if you want to 'futureproof' your house, tech is about the third or fourth thing on the list at least. Build the house to code or beyond (preferably beyond). Make sure there is maintenance access and load paths to major equipment (water heater, heater, washing machine, dryer). Look to building in accessibility features (hallways wide enough to take wheelchairs and power scooters, a place for a ramp in the future, a handicapped shower/tub, all the stuff you or a future buyer will want when they get old).
Goddam geeks are always worried about the latest shiny, and never concerned about tomorrow.

Re:WTF? by ZipprHead · 2014-01-13 13:47 · Score: 2

Mod parent up. 4000 really?

Z wave by LynnwoodRooster · 2014-01-13 13:47 · Score: 4, Informative

It's what I'm starting to use and it's pretty good so far. Door locks, window/door sensors, thermostats, motion sensors, lights, outlets, dimmers, etc. Pretty handy so far. Scripting with LUUP (a LUA like language) is pretty simple, and you can get it to play pretty easily with other whole-house solutions (like SONOS).

For example, when I get home, I can use my cell phone to open the garage door, turn on the garage light, the hallway light, the family room light, turn on the tea maker, and fire up SONOS to the Pandora station of my choice. At night, I can issue a single "time to sleep" command and the house locks itself up, sets lights/temperatures appropriately, and I'm set.

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Re:Z wave by R3d+M3rcury · 2014-01-13 14:28 · Score: 2

I can use my cell phone to open the garage door, turn on the garage light, the hallway light, the family room light, turn on the tea maker, and fire up SONOS to the Pandora station of my choice.
I assume your cell-phone talks to the Internet which talks to your house which causes all of these things to occur? Or is it that you're close enough to home that you can hop on your WiFi network (mine works okayish in the driveway) and nothing is Internet accessible?
I'm curious because I've debated getting this capability for our garage door because I am sometimes unsure whether or not I closed the garage door--it's an OCD thing. So having the ability to check my cellphone to see if I closed the door would be helpful in getting to work on time. My garage door opener has an "Internet Link" which goes to the manufacturer's website and I can check the status or open/close the garage door via that. Of course, I'm not sure I like that idea that somebody over in China can hack their way in and open my garage door. I've debated just using a wireless webcam in the garage so that I could look at that go, "Hey, it's dark. The door must not be open."
Re:Z wave by djrobxx · 2014-01-13 14:38 · Score: 3, Informative

It's what I'm starting to use and it's pretty good so far. Door locks, window/door sensors, thermostats, motion sensors, lights, outlets, dimmers, etc. Pretty handy so far. Scripting with LUUP (a LUA like language) is pretty simple, and you can get it to play pretty easily with other whole-house solutions (like SONOS).
You're describing the Vera, which is primarily a Z-wave controller but supports lots of other protocols and ethernet/serial devices. I use this as well. The best part is that there aren't monthly fees to use it, and the community is writing new drivers for things in LUA all the time. Most other HA solutions I've seen are very nickel-and-dime.
Re:Z wave by blakelarson · 2014-01-13 15:53 · Score: 2

Do you have kids? I have trouble reaching monk-like mindfulness with chattering kids, both arms full, and below-zero temps. Sometimes I wonder if the garage door closed. Or want to watch it go all the way down (snow can pile up and make the door bounce off the bottom).
Re:Z wave by Jmc23 · 2014-01-14 02:16 · Score: 2

Have you not realized that kids are just little scout robots you can send out to do jobs like check if the garage door is closed? They also fetch drinks quite well.

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I recommend RedCloud for your Entry Control by DanSSJ4 · 2014-01-13 13:47 · Score: 2

I recommend using Red Cloud for Entry Control, it is absolutely reliable, feature rich and has excellent support.

Keys are a big inconvenience, plus it's nice to give keys to neighbors, house guests, relatives, etc and be able to specify dates, times, etc. for access as well as being able to deactivate a key whenever you want.

You can control all the doors with a Smart phone, in fact you can use your phone as the key, by holding it up to the reader.

Re:Insteon by tftp · 2014-01-13 14:06 · Score: 4, Informative

I have exactly 42 addressable Insteon devices, plus some access points and some motion sensors that are not addressable. The reliability of all of them hovers about 90%. Note that Insteon retransmits up to 4 times if ACK is not seen. Only one device has 60% reliability, and that is probably due to wiring that leads to it. I also have one Insteon thermostat; it is so bad (crashes) that I cannot have it in the network.

The largest problem is when you walk into a room and press a button. Two events are generated at the same time, and they are competing for bandwidth. Oftentimes one of them is not delivered to the controller. Insteon is not that good at resolving collisions.

I have some Z-wave devices, since I'm developing their firmware (we have the license and the SDK.) Z-Wave is faster, and this means that probability of collision is lower. There is also spatial separation of segments of a larger network - RF reaches only some nodes, but not all of them. In power line based systems all nodes hear all other nodes because the injected signal is pretty loud. (Exception is RF connections of Insteon, but even then if several access points hear your motion sensor they may both retransmit.)

One obvious advantage of Insteon is cost - these are cheaper devices. But expect about 5% of them to fail on you. I have three devices that are dead now. Insteon also works in steel NEMA boxes; Z-Wave will require the antenna to be dragged out.

Where to begin ... by xplosiv · 2014-01-13 14:10 · Score: 4, Informative

I highly recommend you check out CocoonTech.com, especially the forums, as there are thousands of folks who have done this, and can bring you up to speed pretty quick. There is also a guide on the site (Wiring your home 101) which will tell you what wires you should run assuming budget isn't an issue (this lets you pick and chose what wire really matters to you).

You have so many options, it really depends on the time you are willing to put in, budget, and features you want.

I recommend you use an Elk M1 or HAI Omni Pro II security/automation panel as the 'core' of your system if security is really important to you, or if automation is your main vice, then look at the SmartThings, Vera, ISY-99, and HomeTroller (Zee) hardware controllers.

Most of us top this installation off with a software component, so we can bridge/interface many protocols and technologies (this way you aren't stuck with just one solution). Most popular commercial software solutions are Homeseer and CQC, but there are many alternatives, free, open source, etc.

Currently, Z-Wave, INSTEON, UPB, ZigBee, and WeMo are the popular protocols.

If you have the budget, consider hardwiring your home automation light switches, as the wireless/powerline based solutions aren't perfect, plus you have to worry about latency/security. CentraLite, Crestron and Lutron RadioRA are popular commercial solutions. They usually require dealer/installer access, but if you really look around, you could get access to the hardware (I'd probably combine RadioRA with a HAI/ELK panel).

There is so much more to tell, so if you have any other questions, ask away, and don't forget to check out the CocoonTech home automation forums!

Plan, use structured wiring and go high-end. by sg_oneill · 2014-01-13 14:10 · Score: 2

If your building from scratch, then design your homes wiring in a structured manner. Consider having twisted pair runs around the house for touchpanels or switchpanels (RS485 is still the greatest automation protocol since sliced cheese IMHO) with that and power connections coming back to small hideable racks around the joint. Have Cat5 and Fibre ports around the house, and perhaps instead of messing around with home handyman junk like X10, consider using high end gear like the AMX's and Crestrons of the world. Not actually expensive if you snarf all that stuff off ebay!

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Re:WTF? by denis.b.bergeron · 2014-01-13 14:17 · Score: 2

Maybe he have 10 children. I was raised in a house of over 4000 sq ft.,with 6 people, my mother having 2 art business in the house, myself having a photo lab. one of my brother doing mecanics, another one electronic, 4000 sq ft, is not enough when you do something with it, not everyone are using they house only for sleeping.

Re:WTF? by denis.b.bergeron · 2014-01-13 14:18 · Score: 2

I'not american and was raised in a over 4000 sq ft house, and have 9 inches ;-)

Outdoor electrical outlets by crow · 2014-01-13 14:36 · Score: 2

One thing I wish our house had more of is outdoor electrical outlets. You never know when you will need them for gardening tools or holiday decorations. Having them switched is even better, especially if you do a lot of holiday decorating.

Re:WTF? by noh8rz10 · 2014-01-13 14:46 · Score: 3, Funny

so instead of Denis Bergeron your name should be Penis Burgeoning. Pics or it didn't happen.

Zigbee by An+Ominous+Coward · 2014-01-13 14:47 · Score: 2

Zigbee's the best option for home automation ecosystem. Zero-conf mesh networking for great range even through walls/floors, and lower power so all these devices don't bust your electricity bill. And if your utility installs a smart meter with home-area networking, it'll probably be Zigbee, so smart appliances can get usage and price data from there.

Hard wiring to every room with RS-485, RS-422 by kriston · 2014-01-13 14:52 · Score: 2

Since you have the grand opportunity to design your house before it's built, you want to use the best home automation protocol available. Hard wiring to every room with the RS-485, RS-422, TIA-485-A family is the best long-term bet. This will always work now and in the future. It won't be affected by obsolescence, RF interference, or electromagnetic interference.

You can extend your house later with the toy protocols later like Zwave, INSTEON, Zigbee, Bluetooth 4.0/Smart/WiBree, or whatever. For the core home automation where reliability is required, like lights, doors, alarms, sensors, you should use ANSI/TIA/EIA-485. The wires will be the same as your ethernet in case you ever change your mind, but if you design it right, you won't need to.

You rarely see any theaters, hotels, or shopping malls using anything else but ANSI/TIA/EIA-485.

--

Kriston

Use KNX as your system by Harlequin80 · 2014-01-13 14:52 · Score: 2

I did a huge amount of research on what system to go for when I was looking at doing the same.

The final result was that KNX represents the best system to go for. It is the only open standard meaning you have many many manufactures (as opposed to CBUS) it integrates with pc systems allowing you to do 100% customisable setups and its wiring is simple.

You have to run a seperate cable to every device you control but given you are building this is easy. The cable can support (off the top of my head) 128 devices on one cable. Each device is individually addressed and the on/off status is reported back meaning you can still use manual style switches with no problems.

As others have mentioned make sure you data wire your house as well while you are there but this is a different question.

Expect however to spend $20k+ if you are going lights, access, hvac, sensors, etc. If you want to keep your costs low during the build period run the cable where ever it is needed and add the devices later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNX_(standard)

Re:WTF? by ls671 · 2014-01-13 14:54 · Score: 4, Funny

Hi Denis!

This is Lea Samson from HR, could you please come see me tomorrow when your are in the office? I have an important matter to discuss with you regarding your career advancement.

--
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.

When in doubt by FuzzNugget · 2014-01-13 15:05 · Score: 2

Conduit. You never know what might be invented or standardized tomorrow and render your cabling obsolete.

This is my field of expertise by amxcoder · 2014-01-13 15:05 · Score: 2

My job is actually programming home and business A/V and environment control systems for a living. While it won't be the cheapest option, if you want the best, go with one of the 2 biggest and most reputable manufacturers out there: Crestron Electronics -or- AMX. These are the systems that the big luxury homes/mansions get. Crestron -> http://www.crestron.com/ AMX -> http://www.amx.com/ Both manufacturers make wide assortment of proprietary touch panels, keypads, and central control processors for every possible scenario. Both are networkable, and can control anything that is IP / Serial / IR / Relay / or Voltage controllable. They are completely customizable, and do just about anything you want them to do. Each program that is written for these are usually unique to the system and clients desires of what they want. The downside to these options, is they don't come pre-programmed, and you can't get your hands on the delevopment suite without being a dealer. The reason is, these are not just setup/configured like other options out there, they are complete embedded platforms that require programming to get them to do things. Same with the touch screen interfaces, you actually have to design/build the GUI front end, and can make it look and work how ever you want. The other advantage, is they can work and control anything you want to throw at them, but they also make lines of audio/video devices that are suited to doing things like whole-home audio distribution, or whole-home video distribution. They make everything from their own pre-amps, surround sound devices, to HD video matrix routers for routing sources around the house. For the best of the best, these two manufacturers are the cream of the crop. (notice: I do not work for either of these two manufacturers, but I have programmed both of them for 14 years, and run my own programming contract business by providing programming for these system. )

Re:WTF? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-13 15:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

WTF do you need to ask questions that are really none of your business?

Since we all live on a planet with finite resources, overconsumption of limited resources is everyone's business.

That's great. A few questions .... Since you have no idea where this house is going to be (Orlando or the Outback), how it's going to be used (shop space? home business?) and who is going to live there (extended family? orphans?) how is it that you know it involves "overconsumption"? Could you clarify the existence of this nebulous planetary authority that makes it "everybody's" business? Is everything that consumes finite limited resources "everyone's business"?

Will the state that specifies or limits the size of a bedroom also stay out of it? After all, things that go on in the bedroom tend to result in the consumption of many resources. (children or diseases)

Do you know where the committee that oversees you meets? Someone here might want to put in an application.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell

Dennis, call from Lea Samson from HR? by pcwhalen · 2014-01-13 15:31 · Score: 2

Dennis. It's your father. Your mother got a call from a lady named Lea Samson, about your penis? We're all kinda concerned.

Our offer to pay for the corrective surgery still stands: accidents during circumcision are reversible.

--
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain with all your metadata.

Re:WTF? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-13 15:32 · Score: 2

Are you sure he isn't bragging about his music collection?

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell

Off the Geek Track by ATestR · 2014-01-13 15:43 · Score: 2

Ok, I may take some flack from everyone on this, but I'm not going to suggest more wiring in the walls, etc. etc. Instead, I would suggest, if you have the option, to consider earth sheltered concrete. Properly designed, you can minimize heating and/or cooling load on the structure, potentially eliminating the need for gas/oil/electric furnace all together.

That said, once you've got your basic structure, feel free to load it up with all the wires, wireless, automation, and other toys you like.

--
âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

Reliability over Gadgetry, I say by rolfwind · 2014-01-13 15:51 · Score: 2

People really put in a lot of money to save people. Automation in it's current state aint gonna save you a dime (especially lights and crap) and cause a lot of headaches when it comes time to fix. Especially light switches where the ~$1 switches are damn reliable tech.

I have all sort of low tech solutions, but for lighting, I recommend fixtures that take a normal A19 edison bulb. People always want to put in fancy flurorescent lights (not CFLs, just the odd shaped pieces) but the bulbs are always more expensive and never advance. With the standard A19, you can be assured of being able to buy the latest and highest variety tech. If you like track lights, you can buy A19 track light fixtures as well pretty cheap if you look around that look fine (as low as $5 ebay sales new, $7-9 normal)

Then buy 60w Cree light bulbs at Home Depot, they are the best and with subsidies, they cost $8 a piece in my area (down from $13 unsubsidized).

Unlike CFLs, they are instant on, use a few watts less electricity, and look normal. And the 2700k watt variety should attract less bugs (no ultraviolet emmittage) but that shouldn't be conflated with no bugs.

I installed lights, noticed the reflectors were less than optimal in ceiling lights and outdoor lights, that the 60w just wasn't strong enough, used a hightech item from the supermarket known as aluminum foil, placed it strategically and hidden from normal view and was able to get more light than 100w equivalent (23w) CFLs or 100w incandescent. My kitchen went from 256 watts fluorescent tubes to 76w ceiling lights (mostly because the tubes were typically places in center of the room trying to light be sheer power whereas the ceiling lights were placed accordingly). My living room went from 69 watt CFLs to 28.5w cree leds with the same lighting just because of aluminum foil.

My greater point is that aluminum foil and other simple stuff is much more reliable than fancy gadgets that turn things off every once in a while

You can also consider light switch motion detectors, but they too are expensive but at least it's a single point of failure and can be replaced with a standard switch should things go wrong.

The only tech I would really use is a good thermostat.

Talking about that, if you have any interest in solar and the like, look into David W. Allan's home in Colorado, situated 6000 ft high, that uses only solar passive heating.

http://www.naturalbuildingblog.com/david-w-allans-solar-home/

I find the Trombe wall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall

Solarium with ducts, and eutetic salts concept fascinating.

They pretty much adhere to the KISS concept, which is what I recommend overall.

Re:WTF? by mattr · 2014-01-13 16:04 · Score: 2

It is less than 30 ft x 50 ft x (2 floors + 1 basement). That's not a giant house unless you are in the middle of the city.

Re:WTF? by hawguy · 2014-01-13 16:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

WTF do you need to ask questions that are really none of your business?

Since we all live on a planet with finite resources, overconsumption of limited resources is everyone's business.

That's great. A few questions .... Since you have no idea where this house is going to be (Orlando or the Outback), how it's going to be used (shop space? home business?) and who is going to live there (extended family? orphans?) how is it that you know it involves "overconsumption"? Could you clarify the existence of this nebulous planetary authority that makes it "everybody's" business? Is everything that consumes finite limited resources "everyone's business"?

Will the state that specifies or limits the size of a bedroom also stay out of it? After all, things that go on in the bedroom tend to result in the consumption of many resources. (children or diseases)

Do you know where the committee that oversees you meets? Someone here might want to put in an application.

I'm not sure why the location matters - are square feet smaller in Orlando? Are home building supplies shipped in from some other planet to the Outback?

If he had some special use for the house like running an orphanage, or devoting half of it a shop or a photo studio or some other special use, you'd think he would have mentioned it since that would be pertinent for automation. All he said was "my dream home" and "4000 sq ft", so it's not unreasonable to assume a single family home.

And yes, everything that consumes finite resources is everybody's business, that's why water and energy policies are so often in the news -- you can't separate water and energy from consumption, since whether it's food, lumber, or home automation equipment, everything needs water and energy to create. For that matter, you can hardly separate water and energy since the two are so intertwined.

Any individual can ignore the consequences of overuse, since it's true that one person really doesn't make any difference. But that doesn't mean that as a society that we should encourage it. The population is growing and, barring any catastrophes, will continue to do so for the foreseeable future - in 50 years there could be 100 - 300M more people living in the USA (depending on which population growth figures you believe) and it will be a lot harder to accommodate that growth if everyone lives in 4000 sq ft houses. Plus, as the world population grows and more and more people graduate to a 1st world lifestyle, energy (and other resource) demand will grow even faster than the population.

And don't forget. by MadMaverick9 · 2014-01-13 16:14 · Score: 2

Copper wire mesh - to keep the radio signals out.

What I've learnt from automating my own home by aXis100 · 2014-01-13 16:14 · Score: 4, Interesting

I've nearly gone as far as I can automating systems and devices my current home - temperature & humidity sensing in most rooms, motion sensing in every room, zoned ducted evaporative aircon, a couple of split reverse cycle aircons, z-wave lighting and exhaust fans, and mains power monitoring.

-- Lighting ---
Z-Wave works mostly well enough, and I use this to automatically turn on lights when motion is detected, turn off lights after a while with no motion, or turn off when I go to bed. Unfortunately the turn-on the signal can take up to several seconds on a large 1-wire network, so even when the motion sensor triggers quickly you can still be halfway across a room before the lights turn on which is a pain. On top of that, I cant disable the z-wave dimmer soft-on and soft-off feature which is a pain when you're trying to get quick response. For the turn off, it's probably not worth it since I upgraded to LED lights as the power saved is negligible.

At the price of parts + install being $150 - $200 per light fixture it's not really been worth. A few minor conveniences and a lot of annoyances. I think I'd be better off with no automation on most regular light fixtures, and just some inline z-wave switches on frestanding lamps and mood lighting. Maybe automation on the living room and master bedroom for convenience / scenes.

-- Temperature / Humidity ---
Temperature and humidity sensing in every room has been great. In Australia where I live it's quite uncommon to have a whole house climate control system, so I've used these to help come up with a automated strategy for every room that integrates the available air conditioning systems. Also I've used the temperature, humidity and (calculated) air speed in each room to create a "feels like" temperature. Controlling against this rather than the dry air temp has given a much better result.

I've been using 1-wire devices as sensors, which need 1 or 2 twisted pairs for comms and power - cat5 is great. The DS18B20 temperature sensors are very cheap, have been very reliable and can send signals over long distances. Unfortunately the DS2438 based humidity sensors are not as good and I've had to partition the network a 1-Wire hub. Currently I still have intermittent errors with just 30m of cable on each DS2438 leg, whereas the DS18B20 temperature sensors could cope with a load of 100m plus. If I was building a new house I'm not sure if I'd use them again due to the issues with humidity sensing, but I'm not convinced there's many other affordable alternatives either. For reference the DS18B20 sensors are costing me about $2 each, and the DS2438 based humidity sensors (using a Honeywell humidity IC) are about $20 each from parts. Since I work as a control engineer, my next preferred option would be modbus slave devices over RS485.

-- Air conditioning ---
For the split reverse cycle aircons I used a central GlobalCache IP2IR infrared blaster, and then ran long wires with a concealed IR emmitter fitted inside the aircon head units. This works fine but the IR programming for air conditioners is painful. I wish there was an automation interface standard for them.

For the ducted aircon I had to integrate the zone controller using an arduino for digital IO, communicating back to the central server via RS232 serial (over cat5). I upgraded the fan to use a VFD (variable frequency drive) and this can be controlled directly over RS485 using MODBUS RTU.

-- Conclusion --
If I had my chance again I'd probably just run multiple cat5e or cat6 to every room
- 2 to 4 at floor level for computers and TV's
- 1 or 2 behind the light switches for potential CBUS or other wired lighting control systems. These would be wired to a seperate patch panel
- 1 or 2 behind a wall mounted sensor enclosure - this could then have both a temp/humidity sensor and IR emitter fitted. These would also be wired to a seperate patch panel

Ideally I wouldnt run any mains power to wall light switches - all of t

Wrong approach by El+Puerco+Loco · 2014-01-13 16:17 · Score: 3, Funny

If my staff were so absent mindedly leaving so many lights on and doors unlocked that I had to consider installing a home automation system, I would begin by replacing the butler. He really ought to be doing a better job of keeping the help under control.

Always behind the curve by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-13 16:34 · Score: 4, Funny

In my first house, I put in coax everywhere for 10BASE2 to be on the cutting edge. It was cool until copper came out.
In my second house, I put in CAT5 everywhere for 100BASE-T to really future-proof the wiring. Then fibre was the rage.
In my third house, I put in fibre everywhere for ATM and wasted a lot of money. Did I say I wasted a lot of money?
In my fourth house, I put in CAT6 everywhere for 1000BASE-T since it should also do 10GBASE-T. But my runs were longer than 55 meters.
In my fifth house, I said, #%!% it, and didn't wire anything. It became a ghost house where if I pick up my wireless phone, my Wi-Fi connection dropped, my Wi-Fi cameras went nuts, and my Wi-Fi controlled lights flipped randomly. It was great for Halloween.

Movin's a bitch.

Re:WTF? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-13 17:16 · Score: 3, Funny

It is well known the America's Germans beat Russia's Germans to the moon. I don't think China had any, hence the delay.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell

Powerless by camperdave · 2014-01-13 17:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

Having just gone through a multi-day power failure due to an ice storm (Toronto), I suggest that you put a little thought into what you might need if you had a long term power outage. You don't say where you are, but in a lot of places, it can get awfully cold without power. If you live in a winter climate, I suggest that you have a "warm room"; a room within the house where even the interior walls are insulated. That room should have a properly vented and working fireplace or wood stove, and/or gas heating, and be large enough for the entire family to sack out in sleeping bags. Having a backup generator is also a good idea. Multiple exits on different sides of the house are a good idea, in case your front door gets a two inch thick coating of ice on it, and you can't get out.

I'm not saying be a prepper, but a few precautions while the house is in the planning stages could save your life, or at least make a tough situation more tolerable.

--
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!

Re:WTF? by pete6677 · 2014-01-13 17:51 · Score: 2

I'd much rather have someone "wasting" square footage than to have some dictator telling me how big of a house I can have.

Re:WTF? by ShakaUVM · 2014-01-13 17:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

>And yes, everything that consumes finite resources is everybody's business, that's why water and energy policies are so often in the news -- you can't separate water and energy from consumption, since whether it's food, lumber, or home automation equipment, everything needs water and energy to create.

I propose we create a system that will regulate how society allocates limited resources to people. We could even set it up so that people who contribute more to society are given more allocations, in order to incentivize them to contribute to society instead of just consuming resources. We could even create a secondary market for allocations, so people could choose what interests them more - energy, housing space, water, location, etc. We could even set up the government to operate by just taking percentages of these allocations, and trading those allocations to accomplish things like building roads and parks.

We could call this system "money".

Web Controlled Power Switch by FrogBlastTheVentCore · 2014-01-13 18:02 · Score: 2

http://www.digital-loggers.com/lpc.html

I love these guys. They aren't an "integrated solution" or anything, but they can turn eight sockets on and off in response to GET requests, run scripts, do time-related things, auto-power-cycle on failed ping... It's dead easy to slap together custom web pages/apps to trigger them. I use Siri to turn my lamps on and off alone or in clusters. "Turn off the bedside lamps", "turn off the foot lamp", "make it dark", "let there be light." The flexibility is what makes it fun. If I had your money, and had Ethernet next to every outlet, I'd have a hundred of them.

Re:WTF? by hawguy · 2014-01-13 18:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

>And yes, everything that consumes finite resources is everybody's business, that's why water and energy policies are so often in the news -- you can't separate water and energy from consumption, since whether it's food, lumber, or home automation equipment, everything needs water and energy to create.

I propose we create a system that will regulate how society allocates limited resources to people. We could even set it up so that people who contribute more to society are given more allocations, in order to incentivize them to contribute to society instead of just consuming resources. We could even create a secondary market for allocations, so people could choose what interests them more - energy, housing space, water, location, etc. We could even set up the government to operate by just taking percentages of these allocations, and trading those allocations to accomplish things like building roads and parks.

We could call this system "money".

That sounds like a wonderful system -- I'm curious about your plan to ensure that those who contribute more to society are given more allocations of this so called "money" rather than money being used to reward those that already have money.

http://theunderstatement.com/post/3999331289/us-wealth-distribution-visualized

Flexible non-metallic conduit by rlh100 · 2014-01-13 18:44 · Score: 2

When I did the same thing for a house I had stripped down to bare studs it was a year or two before cat 5 wiring became the norm. So the house has a lot of cat 3 wiring in the walls, but no cat5. What I discovered and wish I had used is flexible non-metallic conduit. In 100ft rolls is it about 35-40 cents a foot. Run it to every location you might want Ethernet or cable. Run a cat 5 cable there as well. This allows you to run other types of wire as needed pulling it with an electrical fish tape. Check that the installers do not kink the flexible conduit. The other thing you might think about is running Ethernet to more locations than you think you need. Where you aren't going to use it immediately just leave it in the wall and install a blank outlet cover.

Have you thought of in the wall wiring for speakers? This takes some forethought because you have to figure out where the A/V system will be and where the speakers will be.

If you are going to install an alarm system, have an alarm company design the wiring for it.

A final suggestion. Just before they are going to install insulation and button up the walls, go around with a camera and systematically photograph the studs, wiring and plumbing. In a couple of years when you are wanting to screw into a stud or figure out where the plumbing is, you have photos. Be systematic in the sequence so you can figure out which room and where you are later.

Re:WTF? by Yoda222 · 2014-01-13 18:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

There is already something called money, but it's definitely not set it up so that people who contribute more to society are given more allocations.

Conduit, cameras and security by swb · 2014-01-14 00:35 · Score: 2

I like the idea of conduit for wiring because it allows you to add or replace cabling you otherwise wouldn't be able to, but I think you have to be smart about the structure of the conduit so that you have accessable, big junction boxes to enable long pulls or pulls between areas that aren't in a straight line.

One thing I'd like as an existing homeowner is video cameras and monitoring. I don't think I'll ever have them where I want them, though, because the wiring to corners of eaves and other locations is so onerous. In a new house I'd definitely want to plan for this because these are a lot harder to retrofit than wall locations.

The same is true for alarm wiring.

Re:WTF? by Neil+Boekend · 2014-01-14 01:04 · Score: 2

I wouldn't use the name money for that. It's to confusing as there is already a system with completely different features under that name.
You should call it credits or something like that.

--
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.

Re:WTF? by halltk1983 · 2014-01-14 03:52 · Score: 2

I think he's saying that if you're using up as much as you can afford, it's probably hypocritical to condemn someone else for living to their max. After all, you could also live at the level of many people who make it with much less.

--
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.

Backup Power! by Scotland · 2014-01-14 04:43 · Score: 2

I just went through the same power failure, and came to a different conclusion:

Install a natural gas generator with an automatic switchover when the power goes out. The cost wouldn't be too different, I think, but this way you wouldn't even notice a power outage.

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