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AMD's Kaveri APU Debuts With GCN-based Radeon Graphics
crookedvulture writes "AMD's next-generation Kaveri APU is now available, and the first reviews have hit the web. The chip combines updated Steamroller CPU cores with integrated graphics based on the latest Radeon graphics cards. It's also infused with a dedicated TrueAudio DSP, a faster memory interface, and several features that fall under AMD's Heterogeneous System Architecture for mixed-mode computing. As expected, the APU's graphics performance is excellent; even the entry level, $119 A8-6700 is capable of playing Battlefield 4 at 1080p with medium detail settings. But the powerful GPU doesn't always translate to superior performance in OpenCL-accelerated applications, where comparable Intel chips are very competitive. Intel still has an advantage in power efficiency and raw CPU performance, too. Kaveri's CPU cores are certainly an improvement over the previous generation of Richland chips, but they can't match the per-thread throughput of Intel's rival Haswell CPU. In the end, Kaveri's appeal largely rests on whether the integrated graphics are fast enough for your needs. Serious gamers are better off with discrete GPUs, but more casual players can benefit from the extra Radeon horsepower. Eventually, HSA-enabled applications may benefit, as well."
It can't even run Solitaire. Good luck trying to run any games with this CPU or Xbone or PS4.
The summary did not state what the prices are. Are they cheaper to buy than the Intel chips they are being compared with?
I had a game console with AMD GCN graphics (the "Flipper" GPU) back in 2001. I played Super Smash Bros. Melee on it.
Saying something is "capable of playing" a game at X settings is a completely pointless statement for almost all hardware because the ability to play is based almost solely on having enough memory to load all of the assets. They need to state the average frame rate it gets at whatever settings they are playing it on.
You could play BF4 on a 300 MHz processor as long as you have enough memory, it would just look like a slide show.
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I'm helping a friend with a custom, low-cost gaming machine. We'd looked into using an APU, and I looked into it again today when I saw this. The gaming performance just isn't there yet. They're fine for regular desktop use, but even the top-of-the-line one can't handle gaming.
The two things that could still be useful are GPGPU, and dual graphics. Having an on-chip GPU just for compute purposes, especially with all the enhancements they've added, would be very useful if more things used GPU compute, but it just wasn't worth it for this build and this user. And they have spoken a bit of using both the integrated GPU and a discrete graphics card in tandem, similar to using two GPUs in Crossfire, but they haven't released the drivers for it, nor listed which cards will work, and the card they chose to demo it with was their bottom-end graphics card. Given all that, and that a similar CPU without the integrated graphics was about half the price, I couldn't justify getting one.
I am pretty impressed with how tightly they've integrated them, though. Much better than Intel's offerings. If they made one that had the graphics horsepower for gaming, I'd have used one.
Really looking forwards to the HSA benchmarks.
Nothing out there will tax these chips. All GPGPU codes are written asuming hugh latency between CPU and GPU. With shared caches these things have nanosecond latency and should beable to bring the GPU to bear on a much wider class of algorithms.
Now, it's always worth shipping the data to the GPU, since if it's in the L2 cache, it's there for the GPU as well.
It will take a while before people code to this though.
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Prices are on the first page of the anandtech review.
While the GPU is good, the Kaveri CPU is slightly slower than Richland in the benchmarks - after 4 years of waiting that's a big disappointment.
It's 1:2 AMD:Intel, at the kindest level.
It's 2:3 with radeons:nvidia.
In Finnish kaveri mean buddy. Quite fitting name :)
Since AMD has gone fabless, who do they now use to manufacture these chips?
The article also notes that a lot of the tech in these is new, so older games don't necessarily take advantage of it. It would be interesting to see how this looks a year from now.
It's very exciting seeing both AMD and Intel compete to push embedded GPUs. More and more of the computer is being pushed onto the CPU's package (SoC); one day we can expect to see RAM become embedded too as a new level of cache that is more than sufficient for even gamers. The reason why discrete GPUs and other components will ultimately lose is latency. GPUs and CPUs will reach a point where the bottleneck that exists between them will hinder communication enough that embedded GPUs will become a necessity. The same goes for RAM. One day we may even see hybrid CPU/GPUs, such that some cores will be more general purpose where others are more special purpose. Ultimately we can thank our phones for helping drive this push; especially since phones are rapidly approaching the performance of desktop and laptop computers.
Most of the people who decide they still need a full-sized desktop computer will be completely covered with one of the AMD A-series APUs, at a bargain price. Only the remaining 1 out of 5 users are power-users who need the highest CPU and/or GPU performance, and have to resort to expensive Intel CPUs and discrete graphics boards.
Kaveri marks the third distinct and new chip design in its so-called high-end APU family. However, from Llano (the first) through Richland and now Kaveri, AMD has made almost ZERO worthwhile improvements in the consumer space that matters.
The 'vastly' repaired BULLDOZER architecture proves to be as crap as ever, using insane numbers of transistors, and insane amounts of power, to run slower by fay than Intel designs from the beginning of Intel's new CPU architecture (Sandybridge). Meanwhile, AMD stomps Intel on the GPU side, BUT Intel's GPU performance is so putrid, much better than Intel = utter garbage.
Only at 45W has AMD made great strides. Problem is, desktop users either want MUCH cheaper solutions than Kaveri, or much more powerful gaming solutions. Kaveri is 'great' exactly where the market does NOT exist. Ironically, this matches Intel's current problem with its dreadful FinFET tech- where Intel gets great power saving at the wrong part of the curve- again around 45W. Neither AMD or Intel see significant performance improvements at much lower power usage, where their chips can find their way into SANE mobile designs.
AMD has 'interesting' hardware features in Kaveri that will NEVER see a public API/SDK. Trueaudio, for instance, requires that developers pay AMD a VERY expensive license to access the hardware. The same is true for Kaveri's hardware video encoder functions, and JPG encode/decode. The same looks as if it will be true for Mantle development.
So, when you think about Kaveri, forget about those 'great' hardware features, since AMD intends for them NEVER to be public. Sure, in the future you may be able to buy one or two games or apps from developers who paid to use these features- but open-source TRUEAUDIO apps, forget about it.
AMD wants 178 dollars plus for the 'best' Kaveri- for this price you can choose amongst many much cheaper parts from AMD or Intel, AND afford a discrete GPU as well. Your CPU + discrete GPU will cost the same, use the same power, and run VASTLY faster. Pay a little bit more (say for a heavily discounted 7790 from AMD) and you have Trueaudio support as well.
Kaveri makes ZERO sense, from a price, performance or power usage POV, unless you want and NEED the 45W variant. So, the bottom line is this. Does a 45W APU have a modest power usuage so important, it is the dominant reason for buying? Answer "yes" and you need a Kaveri. Answer "no" and the Kaveri is a terrible choice (today) no matter what kind of PC you are building.
PS I am sickened- SICKENED- that AMD refused to build motherboards with the RAM soldered on, because then Kaveri could have utilised the same 256-bit GDDR5 solution found in the PS4, for no more money (save the cost of the RAM, obviously). A GDDR5 Kaveri would EXTERMINATE every competing Intel part. Kaveri with the same old s**ty 2x64 bit memory bus that has been crippling PC performance for well over a decade has Intel rolling on the floor with laughter.
I would say this discussion fits in well with the frequent discussions we have about the alleged impending death of the desktop computer. Consider the argument that PC's which were brand new around 2007/2008 are still so overpowered for most needs that this is the cause of declining PC sales. Now consider that much less expensive than Intel, yet also brand spanking new AMD chips are practically supercomputers compared to chips from that era. If my 2008 PC is still really fast, but I want to upgrade anyway, why pay the Intel premium (outside of some ultra-demanding professional use) when I can save so much and still have a computer that will be faster than I need for years to come. That's AMD's advantage in this game. I currently have a quad core 3 GHZ AMD system with GPU disabled in favor of a low cost NVIDIA card and it's great. I am waiting till next fall for the price to plummet on current 8 core 4 GHZ AMD chips for my next upgrade. And even then it will be just for the hell of it, not need.
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It's a pretty sad reading IMHO. The Kaveri APU does not seem even decidedly faster than the last generation A10. The only bright spot is that the 65watt TDP A8 APU is not that much slower than the 95watt A10 APU.
Still using a Phenom II 3x *CPU* and it's fast enough for my GNU/Linux system so I see little reason to upgrade it - but if I decide to do so then I would very much like to buy a CPU, not a APU. Would it be so hard for AMD and Intel to offer actual CPUs again? Am I the only one who would like to buy one at some point? APUs are nice if you want a cheap system with alright graphics.. but why do they force us to buy one even if all we want/need is a CPU?
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If it's AMD, it's not significantly faster now than in 2008. That's the problem with Kaveri. Same as Richland, just 15% better than trinity! maybe 5% more than Llano, which was SLOWER than Phenom II...which was Phenom done "right", which was maybe 10% over Athlon II...
You get the picture.
Radeon performance increases by ~20% in each new Mesa release. I think it should be ~60-80% Windows performance with Mesa 10 and Linux 3.12. It still doesn't support OpenGL 4.x, but it's getting quite good. Latest Mesa also has VDPAU video decoding acceleration (still a bit buggy), better power management, PRIME switching between integrated/discrete GPU also works. Unfortunatelly no crossfire yet.
Given that I don't play latest and greatest games (there are plenty of good 3 year old games), performance is sufficient for me.
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With the amd chips you also get full virtualization, encryption, ecc ram and overclocking.
The trend away from desktops to laptops continues. Both AMD and Intel design with this in mind. With Intel the biggest improvement to Haswell was power consumption, which really on a desktop is meaningless for the most part. Both are trying to greatly improve their integrated graphics, because making laptops with dedicated cards is expensive, and you can sell more of the cheaper ones. It is easier to make one more less design.
If you are buying a desktop for gaming the integrated graphics are almost useless dispute improvements (casual gaming, blah blah blah, will be on a phone or tablet now mostly). I would say most people getting a decent CPU will be getting a video card anyway, I mean an i5 or i7 is expensive enough. Though I am sure barebones i3's using only integrated video would be cheap. AMD is cheaper still, but worse in every regard, though their integrated graphics may be slightly better.
The integrated graphics are not totally useless. I recently had some hardware trouble with my video card, and it was nice to have an alternative for testing, and as a back up in case something goes wrong. For example if I had to send my video card back on warranty or something in the mail it would likely be gone for weeks. Which would mean I would have no computer for weeks unless I had another video card as back up that was compatible. This way you still have a computer while waiting for your video card to arrive, and can use it for many things, if not really any gaming.
NGC was the Japanese version; GCN was the North American version. Nintendo Power (U.S.) always used "GCN". It was possibly to avoid an existing trademark, much as Nintendo.com uses "N3DS" where it had used "DS" to avoid confusion with a brand owned by Dassault Systemes.