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Code.org: Give Us More H-1B Visas Or the Kids Get Hurt
theodp writes "Fresh off their wildly-hyped Hour of Code, Code.org headed to Washington last Thursday where H-1B visas were prescribed as the cure for U.S. kids' STEM ills. 'The availability of computer science to all kids is an issue that warrants immediate and aggressive action,' Code.org told Congress. "Comprehensive immigration reform efforts that tie H-1B visa fees to a new STEM education fund,' suggested Code.org co-founder Hadi Partovi, is 'among the policies that we feel can be changed to support the teaching and learning of more computer science in K-12 schools. We hope you can be allies in our endeavors on Capitol Hill.' Also testifying with Partovi was inventor and US FIRST founder Dean Kamen, who also pitched the benefits of H-1B visas (PDF). 'We strongly encourage Congress to pass legislation that directs H-1B visa fees to enable underserved inner-city and rural schools to participate in FIRST,' Kamen testified. 'Specifically, these fees should support efforts to enable underserved inner-city and rural schools to participate in FIRST.'"
Like asking if you want fries, or how to fill out forms to receive government cheese.
Train what you have, fix what you have, rather than importing more of the problem. It's like selling a product at a loss, but making up the profit on volume.
Dean Kamen is a cool rich guy, and like most rich guys, can afford to advocate things that don't impact him.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
... to make sense anymore.
They might as well say "Wombat refuges must be funded so as to secure America's future in space exploration.
The whole thing is a non sequitur.
Visas have nothing what so ever to do with the academic success of American kids. Nothing.
Aliens could come bubble out of the 10th dimension and seal the US off in a pocket universe... and guess what... they could still get a decent education. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!?! Because immigration has nothing to do with education. The US could be utterly isolated and yet have a fantastic education system.
Example? Look at Japan... notice how their education system is terrible because they don't have really permissive immigration policies.
Oh wait, their education system is great despite having pretty tight immigration.
Stupidity. Anyone that honestly gets suckered into such arguments should get the word "moron" tattooed on their forehead. Just for efficient identification.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
what they're worth. Flood the market with H1Bs, so they can tank the amount paid because then there is lots of competition. STEM education is there, the people are there, the (large) businesses simply don't want to pay them the $100k+ they deserve. They want a large pool of $20k/yr workers.
So what if we allowed zero H-1Bs? Wouldn't wages for these positions go up, which would attract more people to the fields requiring workers. If they need workers so bad, why isn't anyone willing to pay increased wages for it? (tongue firmly planted in cheek) By the way, this is coming from someone who recently helped hire a great programmer and wonderful person from India on this very type of visa.
There are plenty of coders in the country ready, willing and able to take these jobs. You're just too cheap to pay them what they're worth or willing to wait the three months it will take to get them up to speed.
Hauling in people from other countries who are no better than the ones here is just an excuse.
Again, you want the unemployment rate to decline? Hire people who are unemployed. They'll work harder and better for you than someone who has a job because they don't want to go back.
Oh, and Slashdot, the fuck off applies to you as well. Your interface just plain sucks and selecting 'Classic' doesn't do shit. Hmmm, maybe we do need more H-1B visas so you can read this site.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
So let me get this straight... Code.org wants to tie H-1B visa fees to education programs, and somehow that's twisted into the headline saying they want more H-1Bs?
It sounds more to me like they're saying "if you're going to bring in a foreign tech worker because Americans aren't good enough, you're going to pay for American STEM programs so Americans are good enough in the future". I can't really object to that idea.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
We should shun them, isolate them, and otherwise keep them away from real society. There's no hope for them.
You were a social worker, and your plan to fix society is to remove the undesirables? Why can't we all get along, social worker? Why? I'll tell you why: because you don't want people to get along.
I was an inner city American youth, and I was interested in programming, software, and computers. Social workers like you actively prevented me from working in IT because "you live in the inner city so you must be a thug."
Admit it, social worker. Social workers like you would be out of a job without thugs, wouldn't you? A social worker's real job is to perpetuate social stereotypes, isn't it? You are the problem with society, social worker. You are the problem.
As a side note, the United States is already one of the biggest spenders on education, and yet gets very mediocre results.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/06/25/where-u-s-stands-in-education-internationally-new-report/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/
So even if they decide to throw a lot more funding for this STEM education it is unlikely to have any real impact.
If I had a nickel for every "consultants by the pound" pitch where they sent in just barely competent coders for me to review, I'd be a millionaire (all of the big subcontinent body shops are guilty of this). Then they've got the balls to pay these poor saps peanuts and attempt to bill me $100-200/hour (depending on how many hours they've spent in front of an Idiot's Guide to C## training video). Then you see all the even poorer saps who are going through 2 or 3 layers of additional consultancies before they make it to our HR dept's door. I feel bad for them, but...I'd rather just recruit at local universities and get people who have identifiable skills, already speak English that most folks can parse, and won't get rotated back to the subcontinent randomly as one or more of their handlers has "visa issues."
Talk to your local university with a decent Engineering or Comp Sci curriculum and start recruiting. Save time, money, aggravation, and help our own college grads get into the game. I refuse to even take calls from the body shops anymore even though my corporate overlords are trying to force the issue. It's just not worth the hassle.
Citizens have all these pesky rights to quit, ask for raises, etc. that you don't have to worry about when you're employing someone who knows they're going to get booted out of the country if they don't do exactly what you tell them to do.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
TFS is not very clear, but if you read it closely (twice, in my case) it appears these guys are suggesting diverting the money collected from H1-B visa applications into "STEM" (how I hate that acronym) education for poor American kids. That makes a little bit more sense insofar as, if you stand on your head and squint, it looks like a token effort to tax immigration to pay for education in the US.
It's funny how everyone who makes his living on research or advocacy for a particular problem says the solution to that problem is to provide more funding for his organization. That is what TFS appears to be really saying - a bunch of people working on STEM education want more government funding for STEM education. Film at 11. ;-)
I don't know how much an H1-B visa fee is, but it must be less than the salary difference between an H1-B guest worker and the actual labor rate set by the domestic market. Otherwise no one would make money off H1-B workers and there would not be this constant clamor for more of them. This small amount of money, collected from a relatively small population of H1-B workers, will never be more than crumbs from the table anyway. It might be enough to fund a dog and pony show like FIRST, but not nearly enough to effect systemic change in the educational system.
In September 2013, the IEEE magazine ran a special series on the STEM "crisis," and based on that, I am now convinced that crisis is nothing more nor less than wishful thinking that high-tech industries can someday, somehow get skilled workers for less than the fair market rate.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Better yet, instead of redirecting H1-B fees to inner schools, reduce the number of STEM related H1-Bs. This should allow wages in these fields to increase and with increased wages there will be more people wanting to pursue careers in those fields. You would think a country based on capitalism would understand how supply and demand works.
35% of IT related graduates over the past three years have failed to find gainful employment in their field. It would seem difficult for a company to justify H1-B employees given that. The only logical conclusion is that H1-B visas are being used for some other purpose than a shortage of skilled workers. I would posit, as many others have, it is to keep costs low to maximize shareholder value.
I have always hated the comment about hitting the ground running. It is effectively impossible for anyone to do so since they don't know the internal structure and political climate of the company. At best they can make educated guesses but they don't truly know what they're getting into until they're working for a few weeks.
Any time an interviewer uses that phrase should send up warning signals to the interviewee that the company doesn't really know what they want and the job will not be what is advertised.
If you want someone to hit the ground running, hire from within.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
First, force companies to pay H-1B workers a lot more - unless they pay for training of an American for the entire duration that the H-1B worker works for them. Then, if the American they trained does not work for that same company at least as long as the training period, penalize the company the salary difference they saved. This forces the company to pay the American what they're worth, or lose a lot of money otherwise.
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
You're not 22 anymore, so they can't hoodwink you into working 70 hour "crunch time" 52 weeks a year. You probably expect paid vacation, also.
Also, regarding these code.org people:
WHORES! FILTHY SYPHILITIC WHORES! Burning alive is too good for these people.
get with the program--multiculturalism is COOL and if you are against mass immigration you are a bigot and probably the next Hitler.
The fact that multiculturalism and mass immigration makes millionaire investors richer is just a coincidence. Just keep saying that....Just keep saying that....Just keep saying that....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
GP:
I constantly talk to people I cannot hire because of raw smarts issues.
Parent:
Guess what.. most people are idiots!
The attitudes! And people wonder why kids are reluctant to go into the field.
"Hey kids! You need to learn coding! You won't get jobs though because you are stupid! So, sign right up kids!"
See, if it were me - just lowly stupid-unintelligent me - I'd be creating a campaign to show HOW kids and current coders are coming up short.
Like, "Hey educators! The analytical skills are coming up short, so how about concentrating on that instead of the technology du jour?"
And if you are currently having problems finding people, how about ignoring Dice, LinkedIN and other lamoe places.
But hey! I'm stewpid.
apprenticeships and more put into trades schools will fix the education part and it can be done in less time that the older college system at a lower cost.
et me shed some light on this as a former H-1B visa holder.
Technically speaking, H-1B visa holders also have those pesky rights. In reality, it is like, some nice pesky rights you have there, it would be a shame if you have to walk through the immigration maze another time.
H-1B visa has no restriction on changing jobs. But you have to restart the process if you are in the applying the green card through the employment based channel. Another rub is that there is a quote system. (I am always wondering if this is considered as special treatment based on country of origin). The numbers of green cards granted each year for some countries such as China and India is very limited. Just by coincidence, those countries have the most H1-B visa holders.
If a H1-B visa holder does not want to endure the insanity a few more (normally 5-10) years, you stay at you current job till you got your green card. The system is designed nicely so that different processes collaborate together to persuade the H1-B visa holder to waive those pesky rights. There was a push to adopt the simpler immigration system like Canada's point system. but the immigration lawyers argue against it because it would reduce the quality of the immigrants. How considerate of them.
well start looking at people who don't have B.S and other degrees. AS lot's of them are very theory based while the tech / trades schools are more hands on.
Say it, brother/sister!
For example, management often thinks a new developer can be instantly productive. S/he can't, because no matter how competent and experienced that developer is with the language and toolset, s/he doesn't know anything about the company's internal code library which is protected by trade secrets and NDAs and other dire consequences if anyone outside the company ever learns about it. And that internal knowledge is often more critical to the job than what the developer could possibly bring with them.
So if a manager thinks that anyone is going to contribute directly and immediately to the company's success on their first day, run! Some more fun translations between interviewer-speak and reality:
- "Fast-paced environment": We replace actual decision-making and prioritizing with simply whipping the employees to work harder.
- "Comfortable office space": We supply you with a $200 chair.
- "Open office plan": We have one room we rented out for $400 a month, and we haven't bothered even installing cubicles yet.
- "Break room with perks": We have a coffee machine.
I am officially gone from
This type of thing is so frustrating.
For example, I applied for a job recently that wanted 1-3 years of Linux admin experience. While I never had formal paid experience, I do have 15 years of:
Somehow, I don't know why they can't extract/find 1 year of experience in there. I can understand if they were asking for 5 or 10 years, but the bar seems low. In other words, what technical day to day tasks does someone in the job face, that I can't handle or figure out? Judge me on my actual technical merits, not something arbitrary.
Pay is not an issue either. Their top pay would represent something like a 40% increase from what I make now, which I do not expect to get. They list no floor. I would be estatic to get even a 5%-10% increase, but can understand that I may have to take the same money or a slight pay cut because of the experience factor (which is fine since I get by well on my current salary).
Of course, the job listing states the team is overwhelmed with work, but the job has been posted over a month. One would think they may have to re-adjust expectations in order to fill the job and get some relief.