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Code.org: Give Us More H-1B Visas Or the Kids Get Hurt
theodp writes "Fresh off their wildly-hyped Hour of Code, Code.org headed to Washington last Thursday where H-1B visas were prescribed as the cure for U.S. kids' STEM ills. 'The availability of computer science to all kids is an issue that warrants immediate and aggressive action,' Code.org told Congress. "Comprehensive immigration reform efforts that tie H-1B visa fees to a new STEM education fund,' suggested Code.org co-founder Hadi Partovi, is 'among the policies that we feel can be changed to support the teaching and learning of more computer science in K-12 schools. We hope you can be allies in our endeavors on Capitol Hill.' Also testifying with Partovi was inventor and US FIRST founder Dean Kamen, who also pitched the benefits of H-1B visas (PDF). 'We strongly encourage Congress to pass legislation that directs H-1B visa fees to enable underserved inner-city and rural schools to participate in FIRST,' Kamen testified. 'Specifically, these fees should support efforts to enable underserved inner-city and rural schools to participate in FIRST.'"
Like asking if you want fries, or how to fill out forms to receive government cheese.
Train what you have, fix what you have, rather than importing more of the problem. It's like selling a product at a loss, but making up the profit on volume.
Dean Kamen is a cool rich guy, and like most rich guys, can afford to advocate things that don't impact him.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
... to make sense anymore.
They might as well say "Wombat refuges must be funded so as to secure America's future in space exploration.
The whole thing is a non sequitur.
Visas have nothing what so ever to do with the academic success of American kids. Nothing.
Aliens could come bubble out of the 10th dimension and seal the US off in a pocket universe... and guess what... they could still get a decent education. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!?! Because immigration has nothing to do with education. The US could be utterly isolated and yet have a fantastic education system.
Example? Look at Japan... notice how their education system is terrible because they don't have really permissive immigration policies.
Oh wait, their education system is great despite having pretty tight immigration.
Stupidity. Anyone that honestly gets suckered into such arguments should get the word "moron" tattooed on their forehead. Just for efficient identification.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
what they're worth. Flood the market with H1Bs, so they can tank the amount paid because then there is lots of competition. STEM education is there, the people are there, the (large) businesses simply don't want to pay them the $100k+ they deserve. They want a large pool of $20k/yr workers.
So what if we allowed zero H-1Bs? Wouldn't wages for these positions go up, which would attract more people to the fields requiring workers. If they need workers so bad, why isn't anyone willing to pay increased wages for it? (tongue firmly planted in cheek) By the way, this is coming from someone who recently helped hire a great programmer and wonderful person from India on this very type of visa.
There are plenty of coders in the country ready, willing and able to take these jobs. You're just too cheap to pay them what they're worth or willing to wait the three months it will take to get them up to speed.
Hauling in people from other countries who are no better than the ones here is just an excuse.
Again, you want the unemployment rate to decline? Hire people who are unemployed. They'll work harder and better for you than someone who has a job because they don't want to go back.
Oh, and Slashdot, the fuck off applies to you as well. Your interface just plain sucks and selecting 'Classic' doesn't do shit. Hmmm, maybe we do need more H-1B visas so you can read this site.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Drop the program and most of the INS madness. Instead for a fixed cost, say around that of a cheap new car, allow anyone to enter and stay indefinitely on a green card.
So let me get this straight... Code.org wants to tie H-1B visa fees to education programs, and somehow that's twisted into the headline saying they want more H-1Bs?
It sounds more to me like they're saying "if you're going to bring in a foreign tech worker because Americans aren't good enough, you're going to pay for American STEM programs so Americans are good enough in the future". I can't really object to that idea.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Lego and Robotics, sounded like great things to get my boy involved in STEM, when I was asked to help coach I was shocked to find it was $800 for a team of 6 kids (the cost is per team, we just happen to be on a small private team) most of these teams are school funded so tax dollars pay for it. I'd love to see the financial breakdown of that organization. BTW Up to the state level I never found a employee, just volunteers. Still wondering where the money went.
Another fact I found annoying, It mattered little how good you were at STEM it was more about cheer leading and exposure. The kids from that team went to state, and while all the other teams were nice and friendly, they did not appreciate watching teams who lost on the field advance because essentially team spirit was 50% of the the score. I understand professionalism and all, but "rah rah, go team go" won't help you in a career like real results.
None of those kids wanted to participate this year. They don't think it's a fair competition.
We should shun them, isolate them, and otherwise keep them away from real society. There's no hope for them.
You were a social worker, and your plan to fix society is to remove the undesirables? Why can't we all get along, social worker? Why? I'll tell you why: because you don't want people to get along.
I was an inner city American youth, and I was interested in programming, software, and computers. Social workers like you actively prevented me from working in IT because "you live in the inner city so you must be a thug."
Admit it, social worker. Social workers like you would be out of a job without thugs, wouldn't you? A social worker's real job is to perpetuate social stereotypes, isn't it? You are the problem with society, social worker. You are the problem.
As a side note, the United States is already one of the biggest spenders on education, and yet gets very mediocre results.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/06/25/where-u-s-stands-in-education-internationally-new-report/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/
So even if they decide to throw a lot more funding for this STEM education it is unlikely to have any real impact.
If I had a nickel for every "consultants by the pound" pitch where they sent in just barely competent coders for me to review, I'd be a millionaire (all of the big subcontinent body shops are guilty of this). Then they've got the balls to pay these poor saps peanuts and attempt to bill me $100-200/hour (depending on how many hours they've spent in front of an Idiot's Guide to C## training video). Then you see all the even poorer saps who are going through 2 or 3 layers of additional consultancies before they make it to our HR dept's door. I feel bad for them, but...I'd rather just recruit at local universities and get people who have identifiable skills, already speak English that most folks can parse, and won't get rotated back to the subcontinent randomly as one or more of their handlers has "visa issues."
Talk to your local university with a decent Engineering or Comp Sci curriculum and start recruiting. Save time, money, aggravation, and help our own college grads get into the game. I refuse to even take calls from the body shops anymore even though my corporate overlords are trying to force the issue. It's just not worth the hassle.
Citizens have all these pesky rights to quit, ask for raises, etc. that you don't have to worry about when you're employing someone who knows they're going to get booted out of the country if they don't do exactly what you tell them to do.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
TFS is not very clear, but if you read it closely (twice, in my case) it appears these guys are suggesting diverting the money collected from H1-B visa applications into "STEM" (how I hate that acronym) education for poor American kids. That makes a little bit more sense insofar as, if you stand on your head and squint, it looks like a token effort to tax immigration to pay for education in the US.
It's funny how everyone who makes his living on research or advocacy for a particular problem says the solution to that problem is to provide more funding for his organization. That is what TFS appears to be really saying - a bunch of people working on STEM education want more government funding for STEM education. Film at 11. ;-)
I don't know how much an H1-B visa fee is, but it must be less than the salary difference between an H1-B guest worker and the actual labor rate set by the domestic market. Otherwise no one would make money off H1-B workers and there would not be this constant clamor for more of them. This small amount of money, collected from a relatively small population of H1-B workers, will never be more than crumbs from the table anyway. It might be enough to fund a dog and pony show like FIRST, but not nearly enough to effect systemic change in the educational system.
In September 2013, the IEEE magazine ran a special series on the STEM "crisis," and based on that, I am now convinced that crisis is nothing more nor less than wishful thinking that high-tech industries can someday, somehow get skilled workers for less than the fair market rate.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Better yet, instead of redirecting H1-B fees to inner schools, reduce the number of STEM related H1-Bs. This should allow wages in these fields to increase and with increased wages there will be more people wanting to pursue careers in those fields. You would think a country based on capitalism would understand how supply and demand works.
No Amnesty.. Reform = actually enforcing laws..
No more H1Bs - there are plenty of willing unemployed US citizens..
35% of IT related graduates over the past three years have failed to find gainful employment in their field. It would seem difficult for a company to justify H1-B employees given that. The only logical conclusion is that H1-B visas are being used for some other purpose than a shortage of skilled workers. I would posit, as many others have, it is to keep costs low to maximize shareholder value.
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I have always hated the comment about hitting the ground running. It is effectively impossible for anyone to do so since they don't know the internal structure and political climate of the company. At best they can make educated guesses but they don't truly know what they're getting into until they're working for a few weeks.
Any time an interviewer uses that phrase should send up warning signals to the interviewee that the company doesn't really know what they want and the job will not be what is advertised.
If you want someone to hit the ground running, hire from within.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
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First, force companies to pay H-1B workers a lot more - unless they pay for training of an American for the entire duration that the H-1B worker works for them. Then, if the American they trained does not work for that same company at least as long as the training period, penalize the company the salary difference they saved. This forces the company to pay the American what they're worth, or lose a lot of money otherwise.
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
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From the opening statements, Congress allocates about $3 billion to STEM education already.
You're not 22 anymore, so they can't hoodwink you into working 70 hour "crunch time" 52 weeks a year. You probably expect paid vacation, also.
Also, regarding these code.org people:
WHORES! FILTHY SYPHILITIC WHORES! Burning alive is too good for these people.
get with the program--multiculturalism is COOL and if you are against mass immigration you are a bigot and probably the next Hitler.
The fact that multiculturalism and mass immigration makes millionaire investors richer is just a coincidence. Just keep saying that....Just keep saying that....Just keep saying that....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
This makes about as much sense as when the Clinton administration opened trade with China by personally promising reforms in Chinese government and an increase in Chinese demand for American cars and products, leading to an increase in manufacturing jobs. Yep, makes perfect sense.
remember, above all else, the USA was from the start set up to make the rich richer.
James Madison, the designer of the federal constitution, wrote that the structure of the fed govt created by the constitution was to preserve wealth inequality by making it harder for the majority to control the govt.
Don't you love the constitution?
eat shiat and bark at the moon
GP:
I constantly talk to people I cannot hire because of raw smarts issues.
Parent:
Guess what.. most people are idiots!
The attitudes! And people wonder why kids are reluctant to go into the field.
"Hey kids! You need to learn coding! You won't get jobs though because you are stupid! So, sign right up kids!"
See, if it were me - just lowly stupid-unintelligent me - I'd be creating a campaign to show HOW kids and current coders are coming up short.
Like, "Hey educators! The analytical skills are coming up short, so how about concentrating on that instead of the technology du jour?"
And if you are currently having problems finding people, how about ignoring Dice, LinkedIN and other lamoe places.
But hey! I'm stewpid.
apprenticeships and more put into trades schools will fix the education part and it can be done in less time that the older college system at a lower cost.
I think pizza hut and others pay more for mangers with the same unpaid OT needs.
TO many places use salaried pay to get lot's of OT work out of people with out paying for it as well use it or lose vacation policy that you can't use all of it due to the high work load. Or OT comp time goes to vacation but you don't get the time to use all up.
If you want someone to hit the ground running, hire from within.
You can also hire back people who had previously left your organization. I've done it before and the current position I'm in is back in an organization I'd left previously.
There may be some changes to absorb but people who come back do have the ability to actually hit the ground running.
More cheap foreign labor, and pulling the floor out from under the market by making basic coding a common skill. Then it won't pay any better than flipping burgers.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Waiting for the teachers' unions to start raising bloody hell about the impact to their livelihoods. Hmmm, given the clout they have with politicos, this may actually work to all our favor.
I'd like to see H1B's cut back or eliminated along with easier availability of Green Cards. I don't mind competing with foreigners for jobs in the U.S., but I do mind competing with foreigners who are in a weak bargaining position that hurts all of us.
Just looking at it as a practical issue, if you reduce demand by bringing immigrants in to do the job (especially at sub-market rates), then the people here will have less incentive to learn those skills.
By eliminating short term demand spikes, you are reducing the long term supply of workers.
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The problem with H-1B Visas is that they smell like indentured servitude. I say abolish them, and then create a visa program for skilled professionals that is not tied to a specific job or business sponsor. That way, the "guest worker" would have some actual bargening power and could change employers.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
et me shed some light on this as a former H-1B visa holder.
Technically speaking, H-1B visa holders also have those pesky rights. In reality, it is like, some nice pesky rights you have there, it would be a shame if you have to walk through the immigration maze another time.
H-1B visa has no restriction on changing jobs. But you have to restart the process if you are in the applying the green card through the employment based channel. Another rub is that there is a quote system. (I am always wondering if this is considered as special treatment based on country of origin). The numbers of green cards granted each year for some countries such as China and India is very limited. Just by coincidence, those countries have the most H1-B visa holders.
If a H1-B visa holder does not want to endure the insanity a few more (normally 5-10) years, you stay at you current job till you got your green card. The system is designed nicely so that different processes collaborate together to persuade the H1-B visa holder to waive those pesky rights. There was a push to adopt the simpler immigration system like Canada's point system. but the immigration lawyers argue against it because it would reduce the quality of the immigrants. How considerate of them.
well start looking at people who don't have B.S and other degrees. AS lot's of them are very theory based while the tech / trades schools are more hands on.
When I was in college in the early 90's, a lot of us would cut tobacco for local farmers during the summer. It was hard work, but it paid damn well for the time ($7/hr. in cash at a time when minimum wage was still $4.25). A few years later I went back and was talking to some old friends from the area and I asked them if they still cut during the summers. They told me that the farmers had started bringing in illegals for $4-$5 an hour, basically the same as minimum wage (by then up to over $5 an hour) and so the locals no longer bothered (it paid just as well to work much easier jobs).
Now, I'm sure those farmers, if asked, would have been happy to tell the government "We just can't find Americans willing to do the work." But what they really MEANT was "We just can't find Americans to do the work AT THIS WAGE." There were plenty of Americans willing to do the work when the farmers paid a decent wage (I was one of them). But when the illegals came in, it artificially drove down the wages to the point where Americans were simply driven out. No legal citizen was going to do such tough, nasty work for the same wage they could get working anywhere else.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Say it, brother/sister!
For example, management often thinks a new developer can be instantly productive. S/he can't, because no matter how competent and experienced that developer is with the language and toolset, s/he doesn't know anything about the company's internal code library which is protected by trade secrets and NDAs and other dire consequences if anyone outside the company ever learns about it. And that internal knowledge is often more critical to the job than what the developer could possibly bring with them.
So if a manager thinks that anyone is going to contribute directly and immediately to the company's success on their first day, run! Some more fun translations between interviewer-speak and reality:
- "Fast-paced environment": We replace actual decision-making and prioritizing with simply whipping the employees to work harder.
- "Comfortable office space": We supply you with a $200 chair.
- "Open office plan": We have one room we rented out for $400 a month, and we haven't bothered even installing cubicles yet.
- "Break room with perks": We have a coffee machine.
I am officially gone from
This type of thing is so frustrating.
For example, I applied for a job recently that wanted 1-3 years of Linux admin experience. While I never had formal paid experience, I do have 15 years of:
Somehow, I don't know why they can't extract/find 1 year of experience in there. I can understand if they were asking for 5 or 10 years, but the bar seems low. In other words, what technical day to day tasks does someone in the job face, that I can't handle or figure out? Judge me on my actual technical merits, not something arbitrary.
Pay is not an issue either. Their top pay would represent something like a 40% increase from what I make now, which I do not expect to get. They list no floor. I would be estatic to get even a 5%-10% increase, but can understand that I may have to take the same money or a slight pay cut because of the experience factor (which is fine since I get by well on my current salary).
Of course, the job listing states the team is overwhelmed with work, but the job has been posted over a month. One would think they may have to re-adjust expectations in order to fill the job and get some relief.
With the obsolesence of currency approaching, one would think these fools would get it.
The U.S. is so messed up :(
One thing that would make it a little less messed up would be to have an auction for H1b visas, rather than allocating them like IP address ranges to big companies. It would be interesting to see what happens when Microsoft, Oracle and Cisco start bidding up the price of cheap labor visas.
It's simple from the corporate position; you'll spend less on STEM contributions than what you will save by driving compensation costs down with H-1Bs.
The proposal is outrageous on its own; train kids for nonexistent jobs that have been outsourced to the lowest bidders.
The suggestion that H1Bs are enabling opportunities to foreigners by providing a path to immigration is equally offensive. The reality is that any individuals interested in immigrating are going to do so via the traditional means, and that's assuming they didn't come here to study first.
The vast majority of H1B applications are filed by outsourcing companies in an amusing twist of irony. These companies are realizing that a remote workforce can be problematic. So they've discovered that they've got a cash cow in H1Bs. Apply existing employees for H1Bs and then charge double or triple for the opportunity to ship them over to the US. In most cases they're still cheaper than employing Americans, especially for higher level positions. And if an outsourcing company has someone critical to a client then they've got them by the balls. Pay more to retain that employee or they've already got someone lined up to hire him. I've seen it happen firsthand.
Second, we really need to end this mentality that dumping more money on the inner city is going to fix anything. That money almost always goes to building a beautiful new school to replace the old one to create the illusion of progress and that the government cares. But the same old problems persist. And there's a fundamental reason for this; if the parents don't care and can't be bothered to participate in the education of their children then the kids will never excel.
This is why teacher reviews is such a problem. A poor teacher in a better district is always going to score well. But a good teacher stuck merely trying to keep order on the class in a bad area will always score poorly. Not that the schools in wealthier communities are much better with all the helicopter parents and self-important, spoiled brats.
I haven't even touched on the fiasco that is common core, where they're not only trying to impose what to teach but even how to teach it, oblivious to the variety of teaching techniques and individual personalities. It's typical garbage formulated by management who is completely disconnected from the realities of the situation. The fact that politics plays a factor here only makes it worse.
Fix those fundamental cultural problems and then we can start talking about fixing the schools. But it's next to impossible to even get started when you've got assholes undermining the entire system for their own gain.
The appeal of H1Bs is that it's easier to exploit those workers. What the government should be doing is giving green cards to anyone with a degree or proof that the have a good handle on English and can sustain themselves. But that inevitably means empowered immigrants who are more likely to question the crap offers they're given.
I'm all for importing as many smart talented people as we can, but not as indentured servants, which is what H-1B is. Give them green cards and a path to citizenship and the freedom to change jobs.
Well to be fair to those social workers, you did end up as someone who posts anonymously...
Just like we were told that allowing the state to create lotteries was going to make all sorts of money available for the schools. If that were really the result, we wouldn't be seeing property tax increase referendums appearing on the local election ballots year after year.
Just like the fees that we were being charged by the phone company were going to be used for building high-speed internet access to rural areas.
When the hell will we learn to stop believing these liars? Whenever they trot out the ``think of the children'' argument you can be certain that the only thing they're really concerned with is their quarterly profits. The children -- along with the rest of us -- always get the shaft.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Rather than pit them against citizens under conditions where their employers can exploit them then throw them back to Bumphuqistan, have a reasonable (five years max) path to becoming Americans instead. Maintaining the "brain drain" is greatly in favor of the US economy. Training our competition then sending them back is pants-on-head retarded.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The real motivation for ever-more H-1B visas: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/13/oracle_sued_over_pay_discrimination/
"$50,000 is enough for an Indian."
How much of that Congressional funding is earmarked to be used in purchasing by the schools on technology that will be obsolete before the students even graduate?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I was talked into running a FIRST-based Jr. First Lego League Robotics club at my 3rd-grader's school. The materials provided were awful. For instance, the instructions suggested handing each kid a few Legos to put together, then having them talk about what feelings they had when gazing at them. Considering the high skills serious 3rd-grade Lego users have, they were immediately bored by the program materials and beginners-level kits provided. We ordered more advanced materials mid-stream, but it took them weeks to even ship them out right. They lost the order, then sent something else instead the second time around. FIRST puts on great airs, but they don't deliver much. There's no evidence they've put any serious thought or effort into it at all. It's just a vanity thing for Kamen. A disgrace, really.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I've owned 2 houses & know it's all "Location, Location, Location".
Tech isn't everywhere, but where it is, it's booming.
My kids will start school soon, so I"m in a rush to a diversified tech area before they won't want to leave.
Because where will the next great tech startup likely succeed? wherever they can get developers!
Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
H-1B visas are a scam and they DO suppress wages - these corporations only like the market when it benefits themselves; when they have increased resource demands they do not want their costs to rise up. They get government to stop market forces.
Sure they pay H-1B people going rates but it keeps wages from RISING while supplying indentured servants which are naturally more desirable to MBAs.
They need to pay more if they want to attract talent, they need to TRAIN employees instead of expect them to list whatever buzzwords the HR drones have on their checklists. They need to RETAIN employees but with non-compete clauses, deportation (H1B,) short term market rewards, and golden parachutes they don't have to care about retention.
Good paying jobs with a path to citizenship and a good quality of life are what make people from around the world want to become citizens. REAL immigration reform would address the green card issues and completely destroy H-1B loophole. Then you have to restore business culture to the way it used to be by taking away their wishlist items which has created most our problems today. Remember what happened when George Lucas got everything he wanted and everybody listened to him unquestionably.... Giving successful people everything they want is not recreating what made them successful in the first place.
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Let's get one thing straight.
There are a fuck-ton of conservatives in Congress. There are not a fuck-ton of liberals in Congress.
There may be a bunch of Democrats in Congress, but they sure as heck aren't all Liberal. This is vs the Republican party where they are all Conservative.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
The primary reason people buy citizenship is for the welfare benefits.
Actually, it's for the economic benefits. It's a choice whether those benefits are due to welfare rather than opportunity or other possible advantages.
to the companies complaining about US regulations yet refusing to move their businesses out of the US
I don't see a lot of "refusing" here. Over the past few decades, a lot of US manufacture and other business has moved out of the US via outsourcing. Similar movement between the states happens as well, with California and the Rust Belt states in particular losing businesses and employees to other parts of the US.
You're implying that the political act of buying a certificate makes one's bloviations on any particular subject more credible. Which, like all elite outgroup favoritism, is the position of the supplicant and the traitor.
The marginal value of a degree has nothing to do with education. It's the debt and the acculturation to bourgeois Whig values that employers consider desirable.
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
Love your words, I might have written a comment similar to yours on a different day. May I just add that the incompetent business leaders are so lacking in ability they can only imagine getting their positive returns from the low-hanging rotten fruit of exploitation and extortion of workers and couldn't create a true return or value if their lives depended on it.
Americans should be worried about creeping Caste system due to H1Bs/Immigrants from India.
Caste system is worse than terrorism. It's slow poison that will destroy your middle class.
to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_politics_in_India
Casteism