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Global-Warming Skepticism Hits 6-Year High

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Chris Mooney writes at Mother Jones that a new study, from the Yale and George Mason University research teams on climate change communication, shows a 7-percentage-point increase in the proportion of Americans who say they do not believe that global warming is happening. And that's just since the spring of 2013. The number of deniers is now 23 percent; back at the start of last year, it was 16 percent (PDF). The obvious question is, what happened over the last year to produce more climate denial? The answer may lie in the so-called global warming "pause"—the misleading idea that global warming has slowed down or stopped over the the past 15 years or so. This claim was used by climate skeptics, to great effect, in their quest to undermine the release of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's Fifth Assessment Report in September 2013—precisely during the time period that is in question in the latest study. "The notion of a global warming "pause" is, at best, the result of statistical cherry-picking," writes Mooney. " It relies on starting with a very hot year (1998) and then examining a relatively short time period (say, 15 years), to suggest that global warming has slowed down or stopped during this particular stretch of time." Put these numbers back into a broader context and the overall warming trend remains clear. "If you shift just 2 years earlier, so use 1996-2010 instead of 1998-2012, the trend is 0.14 C per decade, so slightly greater than the long-term trend," explains Drew Shindell, a climate scientist at NASA who was heavily involved in producing the IPCC report. This is why climate scientists generally don't seize on 15 year periods and make a big thing about them. "Journalists take heed: Your coverage has consequences. All those media outlets who trumpeted the global warming "pause" may now be partly responsible for a documented decrease in Americans' scientific understanding.""

44 of 846 comments (clear)

  1. Re:An ode to wankery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah it's amazing how every d*ck with an internet connection is suddenly an expert on the weather and climate change. The latest study on how many scientist's actually deny climate change found the number to be less than 0.01%. So Practically every scientist in the world, who isn't being paid off by the Koch brothers, says that climate change is happening and it is man made. Yet we all feel qualified to say its crap. Based on what studies that we've done? Oh, it's snowing out so the earth can't be getting warmer. One of the side effects of global warming is more extreme weather conditions. Thus extreme cold could also be a result of global warming.

  2. Re:An ode to wankery by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah it's amazing how every d*ck with an internet connection is suddenly an expert on the weather and climate change.

    Yep. Education and/or experience is no barrier to being a fully qualified climate scientist. All you need is opinions and you're as good as the guys in white coats.

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    No sig today...
  3. People are tired of the endless guilt trip. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why do people choose to misinterpret global warming? Because they are stress out from the endless guilt trip on everything they do.
    The issue is everything we do has some sort of trade off. But it feels like we are being judge for every choice we make.
    Do you use reusable grocery bags? Then you better be sure that you clean them good enough, otherwise you could get sick from the germs.
    Do you use new plastic bag? Then here is this documentary about a sea torturous who dies from eating your plastic bag that you threw away.
    How about if you stick with good old paper? Your Cold/Frozen food creates condensation and break the bag and you waste all this food.

    How about the car you drive?
    A hybrid, which needs more green house gasses to build.
    A small, car which cannot carry enough people and good thus needing an extra car.
    A medium sized car, which gives off more carbon, and yet still doesn't fit everything you need.
    A large car/Suv/Truck you can carry what you need however a lot of time you just polluting gas.

    Do you cut down that large tree in you back yard? If so you can prevent it from falling on your house, if not it can suck up so much more carbon?

    Don't even get me on, food choices....
    We do want to do good, however there are so many tradeoffs we need to think about, and with science showing us more, it overwhelms us, and in essence paralyzes us. So we choose what science we choose to follow and what we choose to disregard as a coping mechanism.
    It is emotional, it isn't about being stupid, of ill informed, it is just about being emotional on your choice.

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    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:People are tired of the endless guilt trip. by dasunt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We do want to do good, however there are so many tradeoffs we need to think about, and with science showing us more, it overwhelms us, and in essence paralyzes us. So we choose what science we choose to follow and what we choose to disregard as a coping mechanism. It is emotional, it isn't about being stupid, of ill informed, it is just about being emotional on your choice.

      I'm going with being stupid, emotional, and ill informed, plus I'm throwing in lazy. Look at your examples - grocery bags: Use the reusable ones, wash the damn produce once you take it out of the bag, and use reusable containers for other food. Grab the small car. Last time we used a van, it was for camping a year ago with friends, and they supplied a van they rarely used. Last time we needed a truck, we borrowed it, for yard work. We could have just as easily rented them, and it would be easier than trying to convince ourselves that we need a car, a van, and a truck. And cheaper! That large tree? If it needs to come down, it needs to come down. If not, it can stay. As for food, some of the best food for us tends to be food we make from scratch - which tends to take up less space, weigh less, and is easier to transport and store than eating out all the time or buying premade food. And don't give us the BS about time - there's plenty of easy one pot meals that only require a bare hint of foresight and setting a timer on the stove once it starts cooking.

      People are stuck in their habits, and they are trying to justify those habits, for the most part. It's amazing. Frugality and being environmental often goes hand in hand. Reduce, reuse, recycle. Arrange your life in such a way that trips can by done by foot, bike or bus. Preplan a bit. It's a time saver, cheaper, and healthier.

      So, personal story time: We live in a small house, ridiculously small by American standards. It's cheaper to live there (and less CO2!). Plus, the yard is just big enough for our hobbies, and nothing more, so we can get by with just a shovel and a manual push mower - which gives us more exercise, while being cheaper (and less CO2 than a gasoline mower and a snowblower). We're on bus lines, which means we don't need two vehicles. Ideally, we'd need zero and rent an hour car when needed - I think we're close to that point now. We're now both on bus routes to work - one bus each, no transfers. Pretty damn nice. The house is small enough that we don't have the urge to pack it with junk, which is, once again, cheaper. And since we don't have a house packed with toys, we have the urge to head out more (ideally on foot or bike), which contributes to our health. Oh, and we tend to cook from scratch which is, once again, cheaper.

      We've upped our income significantly quite recently since my better half got her second degree, and a job, and someone told her that we now could now afford to buy a larger home. The idea caused us to laugh. We already could afford more, but we're already saving money, and we'd rather save more for better things down the road (and early retirement). Why get caught up in the rat race where everyone is convincing everyone else that their wasteful lifestyles are needed? We figured it out - we have the good life. And unlike so many people, our debt is minimal, gets quickly paid off for the most part, and we aren't living from paycheck to paycheck. If we need something, we can get it without worrying too much about the price. But we both realize that we don't need a lot of things. And that's benefiting us while benefiting the environment as well.

  4. Re:An ode to wankery by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's not a peer-reviewed study, it's an informal systematic review.

    http://www.desmogblog.com/2012/11/15/why-climate-deniers-have-no-credibility-science-one-pie-chart

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  5. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by zoffdino · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One third of us still deny evolution as a fact. A smaller percentage want "Creation Science" to be taught in school (well, there's no creation, nor the subject scientific to begin with). When people can deny 4 billion years worth of evidence for a natural process, what do you think make them better at understanding something with only 100 years of evidence. God bless the stupidity of Americans.

  6. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Alain+Williams · · Score: 4, Informative

    The best models that they have are ones that have as part of them global warming. Can you point us at other models that have produced better predictions ?

    No, I thought not ... so let us go with the best models that we have, even if they do have flaws.

  7. Re:This isn't helping... by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

    Try reading and you'll see it says nothing of the kind.

    The country is facing growing public pressure from citizens to reduce air pollution, due in large part to burning coal. Its efforts to promote energy efficiency and renewable power stem from the realization that doing so will pay off in the long term, Figueres said. “They actually want to breathe air that they don’t have to look at,” she said. “They’re not doing this because they want to save the planet. They’re doing it because it’s in their national interest.” China is also able to implement policies because its political system avoids some of the legislative hurdles seen in countries including the U.S., Figueres said.

    There's no "only", there's no "this is the right way to do it", there's nothing like that. There's just "China is doing these things, this is why China is able to do these things".

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  8. Good page on debunking the "pause" by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Informative
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    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  9. Re:the sky is (not) falling... you're thinking abo by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well if it makes the Yanks feel any better, one can colour Australia blue from July 1 onwards, when the new senate repeals legislation as their first act.

    Our new PM (back in 2009) "The argument is absolute crap. However, the politics of this are tough for us. Eighty per cent of people believe climate change is a real and present danger." 4 years on and he convinced a majority of electors that action on climate change was "socialism masquerading as environmentalism".

    So it's not just conservatives in the US that regard climate change as a big socialist conspiracy...

  10. Re:An ode to wankery by oscrivellodds · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the big trend these days. We must respect everyone's opinions equally. It doesn't matter if they are expert in a specific field or know nothing but what they see on the "news". All are of equal value. That's why we don't tell kids who are getting F's (do any of them get those any more?) that they are stupid. We let them find out what the world thinks of dummies after we push them along and graduate them. Then they find out that they are dopes and can't get/keep a job that pays a living wage (are there any of those any more?) and start taking antidepressants.

    The US is in the death throws of democracy. Future generations (in other countries) will study this period of US history to try to figure out what happened. How did stupidity and ignorance get elevated to virtues?

  11. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This kind of messages does not help your cause.

    1) Stop insulting people. Maybe it is that the arguments where not convincing enough, or simply wrong.

    2) The doomsday predictions that do not happen demolishes credibility

    3) Revolutionary speech ("deniers"? "denial"? what scientific language is that?) does much more harm that help

    4) Changing definitions and arguments do not help also: change means increase in extremes, but the original argument and studies used median temperatures? now in winter is climate change but then in summer it will be global warming again? the polar bears will go extinct in 2010, no, wait, in 2012, no, wait, in 2013, no, wait, in 2014... in the mean time, the climate scientists studying the phenomena got trapped in ice? The arctic disappears but the antarctic grows and the explanation is *global* warming?

    5) Instead of name-calling and political agendas, the scientific argument must be addressed: How something with a (comparative) small influence of less than 0.01% of CO2 in atmosphere has such importance in models when something much more important (H2O as gas cause hothouse effect but as clouds increase albedo!) that is so complex that a really small variation in the model can cause huge changes in results gets no attention? why the uncertainty of the most important factor in climate (the amount of radiation in the sun) is not shown in uncertainty in the results? Those 2 really basic problems with the underlying theory never seem to be explained, lets not talk about more complex and subtle ones... instead, the results are presented as dogmatic-religion certain and whomever is not convinced is so a "denier" (I suppose the term "heretic" was considered too reveling). That the predictions does not concur with the observed results apparently is not important: "is a sort-term fluke", but whatever short-term observation that DOES concur with the predictions is considered a very important factor.

    5) Attacking arguments not to the arguments themselves but only saying that they come from big-oil-lobby makes people suspect you come from the green-tech-lobby, the nuclear-lobby or the whatever-lobby, and in the end does not accomplish anything useful

  12. Re:Propaganda Piece fudges truth . . . News at 11 by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

    Your "translation" is a complete nonsequeter: the article states that a 17-year window is a necessary condition, not that it's a sufficient one.

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  13. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Informative

    If I google "California rainfall reconstruction" (because there weren't many rain meters out in California in the 1800s) I get a pile of articles on the subject showing data going back over 1000 years:

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=california+rainfall+reconstruction

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  14. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a Scholar link which gives more relevant results.

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  15. Exactly 0% argue static climate by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The brilliance of "climate change" is that the possibility range of "change" is kinda infinite.
    In one stroke you can bin everyone who'd gainsay you in any way with Flat Earthers.
    That there is some nifty rhetorical kneecapping. Bravo.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:Exactly 0% argue static climate by Immerman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Climate change became the more popular phrase simply because so many people refused to accept that just because he planet as a whole is warming doesn't mean that every area also gets warmer. Most of the warming will happen at the poles, and that will fundamentally alter the thermal engines driving large-scale weather patterns, which can mean hotter summers and milder winters for some places, but can also mean colder summers and/or winters, as well as slower-moving storm systems which are responsible for flooding/snow-ins and droughts since their payload is all dropped over a much smaller area.

      TLDR: Global warming is what's happening to the *entire planet*. Climate changes are the far more complicated regional results.

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  16. Re:This isn't helping... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apparently the UN Climate Chief just said that only Communism can stop global warming.

    No, she didn't. She said that communism is good at dealing with that kind of thing, not that democracy was incapable of fixing it. She made the rather obvious point that communist states find it easier to act for the collective good, while in democracies people tend to act in their own interests.

    This just shows how desperate the sceptics have become now it looks like they are losing the debate. They have to try and conflate dealing with climate change with that old enemy communism. Kinda surprised they haven't figured out how to link recycling to helping terrorists yet.

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  17. What guilt? Stick it to the man! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People are under the erroneous impression that they are giving up something good. They feel guilty because they have been conned by the marketers. Fell guilty about trying to live more ecologically? Congratulations! You are a sucker! Big corps WANT you to be stubborn and keep buying their shit and sucking the money out of YOUR wallet.

    Big cars? Look on the road. How many people actually fill them up? They are mostly single drivers - maybe two.

    Food? We've been brainwashed into thinking eating what we evolved to eat (vegetables, fruits, nuts, a very small amounts of meat - which is optional) as being depriving. The big junk food makers have conned us into thinking that green salad is tasteless and we need a shit load of salt and grease. I've changed my tastes back to where they should be and I find prepared foods - pretty much anything that I don't cook - to be too salty and too greasy.

    Grocery bags? Whatever. I do all of them. I reuse the plastic bags - they're great for picking up dog poop when you walking it.

    AND -this part I LOVE - living ecologically saves money (use less expensive gas, cook healthier meals, medical costs go down, dont' get suckered by big corp America) AND it sticks it to the man!

    No sir! The green and crunchy people have shown me that I can loose weight while eating as much as I like, reduce healthcare expenses (lost weight, better LDL/HDL ratio: 1.0 Baby!, and less stress on the knees and other joints), help local farmers - they grow awesome stuff, save on gasoline, and more money in MY pocket - all because I'm living like an eco-"whackjob" as Neil Boortz used to say.

  18. Here we go again... by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    responsible for a documented decrease in Americans' scientific understanding

    Oh, FFS. The core of "scientific understanding" is critical thinking and questioning presented "facts", the possession of which naturally results in skepticism when doing so invokes this sort of garbage. "Clearly anyone who doesn't blindly accept what we're saying, without question, doesn't understand science" isn't "science", it's dogma.

    I've still never had anyone offer me any reasonable answers to many of my legitimate questions on these "studies." e.g.:

    1. 1. Some studies claim to be based on as much as 1000 years of temperature data. Exactly how widespread, accurate and rigorous was temperature recording during the Dark Ages?
    2. 2. How, exactly, is 100, 200, or even 1000 years a suitable sample period in geological terms? It seems remarkably short-term.
    3. 3. Why is any study that doesn't rival "Young Earth Creationism" in Anthrocentrism derided and disregarded as "bad science"?
    4. 4. Is there anything to any of these studies that's *not* spawned of wanton use of extrapolation?

    Okay, admittedly #4 is more an expression of frustration. I'm not a geologist or meteorologist, so pointing me at the raw data doesn't tell me anything, but having it "translated" for my by "experts" has proven all but useless, since this "debate" still doesn't seem to have much to do with science as opposed to politicization of funding.

    Ideology and science are incompatible, whether it's about teaching schoolkids about evolution, or the world catching on fire. As it is now, I still don't know if global warming is a thing, if it's a human-caused thing, or if it's bullshit. All that's come out of this whole thing is that I pretty much don't care, since the way it's being handled is more like two schoolkids arguing over whether Batman can beat up Superman.

    1. Re:Here we go again... by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1) You reconstruct data from proxies. That lets you get back a lot further than 1000 years.
      2) Obviously this is why you do "1"
      3) It's hard to say, as there are few studies which actually claim global warming isn't happening. There are plenty of studies criticising methodologies and exactly what the end results are, lots of academic back-biting but there is a remarkable consistency across field and technique in the general conclusion that mean temperatures increase.
      4) It's observational science. The entire basis of empiricism depends on interpolation and extrapolation.

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      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  19. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by ganjadude · · Score: 5, Interesting

    actually what is happening is that most climate change skeptics do not dismiss that the climate is changing, We know you mean AWG change. We simply believe that either

    A - there is not enough data or data has been cherry picked to push an agenda

    B - there is change and it is natural, who do we think we are to believe we have as much power to actually change the climate or

    C - The costs to "stop" if thats even possible climate change is far greater than we are willing to spend.

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  20. Re:Propaganda Piece fudges truth . . . News at 11 by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is no huge record of colds in the northern hemisphere.
    You know, Europe, also Skandinavia (which technically belongs to Europe), Russia (yes, left side of it is also Europe) IS ALSO IN THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE
    And here we have since decades records warmth winters. Particular this one. You know: Finnland, polar circle, christmas: +7 degrees centigrade. That is ridiculous warm it should have been around -30 degrees centigrade, or colder. Note: if you missed the small word: polarcircle.

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  21. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unfortunately scientists have to use models based on physics, and not curve-fitting.

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  22. Re:Count on every Warmist... by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Informative

    You realised you linked to a search with one result about a pro-climate-change lobby, and all the rest are reports on anti-climate-change lobbying efforts several times it size?

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  23. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Show me the historical data, please. Does it actually support this climate change theory?

    Now this is a really tough one. Who do I trust? Some random bloke on the Internet, or virtually every actual scientist on the subject in question? Decisions, decisions...

    Yes, the data does support the theory. There are even meta-studies being done. One of the recent ones checked all studies published on climate in 2013. That was 2200 or 2400, something, I forgot the exact number. I do remember the exact number of the studies who disagree with climate change. It was easy to remember: One.

    That's 0.05%. In a graphical diagram, it would be too small to print.

    Now if you have a better theory - scientists are always willing to listen to better theories. However, given that tens of thousands of eyes have looked at the available data and agree that the current theory is the best one around, it's not you who gets to demand proof, it is you who must bring the supporting evidence for your pet theory.

    Your water theory may even be in there somewhere, as a contributing factor. But it doesn't explain the ice caps melting, for example.

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    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  24. Re:An ode to wankery by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How did stupidity and ignorance get elevated to virtues?

    I wish I had an answer for you, other than the media. The last 20 years has been the "coming out" years for stupidity. Ignorance and stupidity are rewarded and intellectualism, logic and reason is to be avoided because it's "geeky". No one seems capable of critical thinking anymore. There are people who know they are stupid, and are proud of it! Really - with all thees low-brow TV shows like "honey boo boo", "duck dynasty" , " kardashians", etc - they seem to make being stupid vogue somehow. Then on the flip side of the coin, last month CNN did a short bit on CERN'S LHC and the 2 reporters were giggling, making jokes, couldn't keep a straight face during the piece. They were obviously uncomfortable reporting on this subject for fear they may get labeled a geek or something. Perhaps our future is shown in the movie "Idiocracy". I fear for our future generations. I saw something here on Slashdot the other day which I posted on my fridge; that sums it up:

    "“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”"

  25. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's how you derive models for simple systems, and parameterise models where we already know that a particular function is a good fit - you probably fitted force to strain using Hooke's law as your function to find the force constant of a spring. Unfortunately we already know that climate is a good deal more complicated than Hooke's law; in systems like these there has to be some physical justification to the model that you're using. Otherwise you might be fitting to a large number of points but only forecasting a few, as these authors are, and therefore your model is likely to be overfit and therefore unsound. Or you could just create a good model by dumb luck. Remember epicycles?

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    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  26. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And until someone can show me a model that can predict 15 coin tosses in a row, I'm not going to believe that a tossed coin will come up heads 50% of the time!

  27. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by operagost · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, scientists have to present explanations that people without advanced degrees have to understand. Telling people they're stupid deniers because they don't understand your data-- especially when you won't admit your mistakes, and wrap it up in rhetoric-- is not going to do the job. That chart actually helps to explain the earlier errors in analysis and explain how the current cooling trend doesn't contradict the long-term warming trend.

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    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  28. Re:There can't be global warming by tpstigers · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, science has been pretty clear about this. If there is any question, it's not whether global warming exists but whether humans are responsible for it.

    What's really happening is that global warming - like evolution - is no longer a scientific argument, but a political one. These questions are no longer being asked in the arenas of logic and reason. In those arenas the questions have already been answered. In the political arena, however, "science" isn't governed by logic and reason.

  29. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by E++99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the best models are worthless and have not made any good predictions, should we really "go with them" just because they are the best?

  30. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by pepty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most Americans cant tell you how many states we have, and they will gladly sign a petition to ban the use of H2O, So please do not judge global IQ based on the land of morons I live in.

    I think we're a good stand in for global ignorance. Where we stand out is willful ignorance/ideologically motivated cognition in otherwise educated and numerate people. If you want to see an educated conservative republican lie about the answer to or subconsciously misunderstand a simple math problem, just phrase it as a gun control question. Figure 7:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2319992

  31. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A - there is not enough data or data has been cherry picked to push an agenda

    There are over 10,000 published studies on the subject, and dozens of meta-studies checking on them. To be true, your claim A would require that 99.9% of the scientists in this subject are either corrupt and/or total idiots.

    That is the kind of grandiose claim that can be dismissed without argument unless you have supporting evidence. You are probably familiar with the saying about extraordinary claims.

    B - there is change and it is natural, who do we think we are to believe we have as much power to actually change the climate or

    Again, a world-wide community of scientists, from every cultural and political background have been studying this subject for decades. They not only believe it, but have the data and the models and the studies to back up their claims. Where is your supporting evidence?

    C - The costs to "stop" if thats even possible climate change is far greater than we are willing to spend.

    That is the only valid argument, because it is political and not scientific.

    Yes, we could absolutely argue that heck, to hell with everything, let's just ignore it. Except that the damage that climate change causes is already estimated in the billions per year.

    The cost to "stop" is massive, because we've built our society on an unsustainable model. In simple terms, you have a family and a house and a car, but it's all built on credit - you spend more every month then you make. It worked this far because your bank and your credit card company are happy to give you credit. You don't know exactly how long you can maintain this, but you do know it's not forever.

    In that simple model, it should become obvious that even though stopping will be painful (smaller house and car, probably), the longer you wait, the more painful it will become.

    Unfortunately, we are human beings and pleasure in the now (which is certain) is psychologically more valuable than avoiding pain in the future (which is uncertain). It's just how evolution turned out to work best for us (unless you're also a creationist, in which case you believe in a truly terrible, sadistic and utterly fucked-up god).

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    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  32. Re:Count on every Warmist... by phlinn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That study is presented in a fundamentally dishonest way. 0 TLDR version: It's deceitful to label that disagrees with any portion of the alarmist agenda (disliking a carbon tax for example) as a climate change denier. Taking all groups that fit under that broad category and totaling all of their funding regardless of what percent actually goes to climate issue magnifies the deceit.

    --
    "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
  33. Re:Failure condition? by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's not major theories that will need to change, it is the details. We know that CO2 warms the earth, and we know CO2 is being added to the atmosphere.

    The question is how much, and it's still an open question (there's no scientific consensus on how much). The estimates range from .9 degrees to 7 degrees for a doubling of CO2 (the warming effect grows logarithmically, so each subsequent doubling has the same effect as the previous). CO2 by itself will only give around .9 degrees, but there are hypothesized feedbacks that could amplify the effect of the CO2. Some of those hypothesized feedbacks are a lot more doubtful than others, but the point of the computer models is to understand the interplay between the various feedbacks.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  34. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by turkeyfish · · Score: 4, Informative

    "in the mean time, the climate scientists studying the phenomena got trapped in ice?"

    "The arctic disappears but the antarctic grows and the explanation is *global* warming?"

    You suggest erroneously that the ice trapping a Russian vessel in the antarctic was caused by cooler conditions leading to more ice formation. In reality the trapping occurred because sea ice was blown by the wind trapping the vessel during the antarctic summer. There is abundant evidence that the antarctic, both East and West, is also melting, which is one of the reasons there is more sea ice, since when glaciers calve at greater rates there is more floating ice. Indeed the grounding line for the Pine Island glacier is rapidly advancing inland at rates not previously recorded in recent geological times.

  35. Re:The Unanswered Question by fredprado · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The answer is that you don't need to argue that the world is not getting warmer. The world got warmer and colder multiple times in the last billion year, and glaciers advanced and receded multiple times during this period. Still here we are.

    Skeptics do not contend that there are climate changes, they defy the notion that human factors are as significant as the alarmists say, and the theory that what is happenign now is outside the bounds of what already happened to Earth many many times.

  36. Re:It is about development by Tanktalus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wow. Really?

    If your doctor tells you that you need antibiotics, you weight the risk and cost vs the reward to determine your course of action. In this case, the risk to you is low, the cost is similarly low, the reward is that your infection likely goes away faster (in extreme cases, saving your life, but not in general).

    If the AGW politicians tell you that you need to sacrifice your entire standard of living in order to curtail a problem that they still don't understand (and, let's face it, they don't understand it because they still can't predict it, even on a decade-by-decade basis, nevermind year-over-year), the risk is high (no understanding of likely outcomes), the cost is even higher (likely resulting in many human deaths), and the rewards are vague.

    Those aren't even kind of similar. For an analogy to work, there must be a reasonable amount of similarity, and your analogy has almost none.

    I'm all in favour of technology improving our cheap-energy viability. But the problem is that the only realistic cheap-energy that is currently technically viable is nuclear. And that has the same group of environmentalists opposed to it as are trying to decry AGW. They're shooting their cause in the foot.

    Other than oil executives, most of the rest of us don't care where our energy comes from. But we know we need it. And most of us don't want to double (or more) our energy costs. We have a viable alternative. Use it. That will kill more opposition to AGW changes than any "scientific" argument you can come up with. Make our lives easier for less cost, and it will be adopted overnight (relatively speaking). Use your scientists to proclaim the actual safety of the nuclear industry. You'll do far more to remove carbon emissions than anything else currently being tried.

    It's the old adage - catching more flies with honey than vinegar. Don't accuse us, attract us with what we want. Cheap, reliable energy. Remember Aesop's fable about the North Wind vs the Sun. The man wears a coat to keep warm - blowing a cold wind only makes him hold it harder, but give him warmth and he sheds his coat willingly. Give us what we want, cheap, reliable energy, and you get what you want, fewer carbon emissions.

  37. Re:Which shows that people don't understand by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Science is not democracy. 99% of the scientists can and have been often wrong in human History. There is no real scientific model that is able to predict climate changes. All we have are conjectures and giving the weight of fact to them is irresponsibility.

    Wow, so much hogwash in so few sentences.

    First, yes, most scientists were wrong for a time, with the available data, and as proven later by other scientists .

    When science is wrong, it is almost always science which corrects itself. Very, very, very rarely (in fact, I don't know a single example, I just can't say for sure there isn't one) has a non-scientist disproven an entire field of science.

    Two, of course we have models predicting climate change. Are you living under a rock? What you probably mean is that the current models don't predict what exactly will change where exactly when exactly. Which is normal given how complex a system climate is, and how many feedback loops it contains, meaning that anything that happens will change everything again.

    Given the chaos (mathematically speaking) of the system, our predictions are fucking great. As someone said it in response to a similar bullshit "criticism": When scientists say "estimate", they often mean a precision that's equivalent to measuring the distance between New York City and Los Angeles to one millimeter.

    I always find it funny how people trust science with their lives when it comes to cars, airplanes or medical emergencies, but not when it's a bikeshed problem.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  38. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you had read that guys model, you had realized: there is no model.
    Regarding prediction: as far as I can tell current models predict the actual situation very well. If you can do better join the scientists and show them.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  39. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Truth_Quark · · Score: 4, Informative

    If the climate scientists have a model that accurately predicted the past 16 years then we can talk about the future.

    There are no models that did prediction 16 years ago. The Hadley Centre's had DePreSys predicts a decade, but that only came online in 2007, not 1997.

    So your requirement for talking about the future is set at impossible.

    That is stupid and dangerous. Talking about the future is both sensible and important.

    Until then the predictions of gloom and doom are about as believable as the heavens-gate cult.

    0.8C temperature rise over the past 100 years, all in a spatial and temporal distribution that matches the CO2 greenhouse effect.
    Measured energy imbalance at the top of the atmosphere, demonstrating warming.
    Continued sea level rise, demonstrating energy absorbance, either my melting ice sheets or my warming oceans, and thermal expansion.
    Extinction pressure on many ecosystems because of changing rainfall, temperature, and phenological changes.

    And you claim these observations are from predictions as believable as heavens-gate cult, because the last 16 years, the warming trend has only been about 0.05C per decade.
    Much like the "pauses" in warming in 1978, 1987, 1997 and 2003?

    I don't think you've thought this through.

  40. Re:Show me a climate model for the past 16 years by Truth_Quark · · Score: 5, Informative

    The most sophisticated models being trotted out by AGW alarmists are essentially little more than extrapolated curve fits to a chaotic data set.

    No, A model is not a curve-fitting exercise.

    Why don't you read up a bit on HadGEM3: Design and implementation of the infrastructure of HadGEM3: the next-generation Met Office climate modelling system, Hewitt et al, Geosci. Model Dev (2011).

    As you can see, it is not an extrapolated curve fit, but an imitation of the global atmosphere, ocean and biosphere, based on physics.

    And when something in the real world shifts and they are all wrong, they get fitted to the latest historical data and are suddenly right again.

    For instance?