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Ukrainian Protesters Receive Mass Text Message Ordering Them To Disperse
schneidafunk writes " Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.' was the message sent to thousands of protesters as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect."
From NYTimes: "... Protesters were concerned that the government seemed to be using cutting-edge technology from the advertising industry to pinpoint people for political profiling. Three cellphone companies in Ukraine ... denied that they had provided the location data to the government or had sent the text messages, the newspaper Ukrainskaya Pravda reported. Kyivstar suggested that it was instead the work of a 'pirate' cellphone tower set up in the area."
This chart has some interesting tidbits on laws that were just put in place in the Ukraine.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
I've been following this stuff all day, because this just got seriously violent:
> Police authorized to use firearms, two dead from shooting already
> Ban on using fire hoses in sub-zero weather lifted
> Hospitals tending to wounded protesters have been attacked by police
> Snipers out in force
> Armored Personnel Carriers already deployed, an Army tank unit is being moved into the city
> Opposition members of government resigning en masse
> over 100,000 protesters in Kiev main square
Things are very bad for Ukraine right now. I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over, but I can certainly recognize the nature of the government's response.
Everybody should scan through this - the images alone are powerful: https://twitter.com/Euromaidan...
Every time advertising industry develops a new way to track you, every time you unquestionably surrender your data in exchange for some trendy app you invite and enable this kind of abuse. The only defense is strong privacy laws and consumer push-back against tracking.
Why this technology exists? Because people accepted invasion of privacy from pioneers like Foursquare, so it was feasible to commercially develop this technology to the point where any totalitarian government can purchase 'turnkey solution' for a couple millions. Now every Banana Republic dictator can deploy it against unwilling citizens.
"Lets go do some crimes! Bring your phone. I want to take a selfie!"
Not a place I want to be contactable... Burner protest phone for the win.
TFA say:
The NY Times reports that the "Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday."
The NY Times does not say that at all. It does say what the summary says. According to the NYT, The carriers claim that they did not give location data to the government, and that a "pirate cell tower" was used.
And the fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi. And the fact that they don't have any enforcement arm, while the Stasi had the power to arrest anyone at will. And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design. Nor to they hire informant among the public. And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it), while the Stasi was closely tied to East Germany and almost took over the country at some point, the way Poutine (ex KGB, remember) did in Russia. So yeah, exactly the same. Especially if you have no idea of what you are talking about.
No enforcement arm? Like DHS, FBI, DEA, *insert TLA here* that have institutional procedures to falsify the origin of the evidence?
None of these organisations are enforcement arms of the NSA. They are separate organisations with separate mandates, and in practice, who aren't even especially friendly or helpful among each others.
The NSA cannot arrests anyone the way the Stasi could without having to tell anybody.
Aren't especially friendly? What do you call all their fusion centers and data sharing agreements? The NSA is the intelligence arm. Those other agencies are tasked with enforcement.
Well, that's the theory. In actual reality, the relationship between the NSA, the FBI and the CIA is far from easy. In fact, lack of collaboration between them is one of the biggest reason why 9/11 happened. They roles and responsibilities sometime overlap. For example, the NSA isn't the only signal intelligence organisation in the US. The military has their own. Historically, the CIA had their own too. But the NSA never had any enforcement branch, while a shitload of US organisations have (did you know NASA has its own law enforcement division?)
Obviously, if you see the US government (or any other government) as some kind of monolithic entity that always goes the same direction in unity, you won't care about the distinctions between all these organisations. In reality, it's far, far from being that simple. Politics is everywhere, even in the intelligence community.
And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.
Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.
Nor to they hire informant among the public.
I would be very surprised if the didn't, the basically force companies like google to hand over information. They hire people to put back doors int encryption algorithms. Why do you think they are are above doing the same with the general public. The only reason I can see, is it maybe less efficient, than monitoring all electronic communication.
And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it)
or crazy good at it, so good at it that you don't even know they are doing it, the USA is a democracy, well compared to East Germany, so they have to be a little more subtle about it.
the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi.
Translation: It's okay, as long as we do it more efficiently.
they don't have any enforcement arm
Translation: Outsourcing is the new black.
they don't systematically create files on their citizens
Translation: It's not a file if you never look at it! And it's not systematic because... we... uh... use computers to do it!
Nor to they hire informant among the public.
Translation: Paying people is SO 1980. We have Facebook now.
they don't seem to be politically active
Translation: Outsourcing is the new black.
I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over
A quick summary:
The protests started small and peaceful when president Yanukovich bowed to Russian pressure and reversed the political course away from signing the association agreement and trade deal with EU. Many people had high hopes for that and got disappointed. Still, the protests were in 10,000 people bracket, demanding to keep the EU course, and were almost dissolving in a few weeks, except for a few die-hard fans.
But then the rulers decided they could simply "clean up" the remaining protesters at night using riot police. They beat up the poor guys (mostly students) badly. Dozens of people were heavily injured and had to stay in hospital. A few have gone missing. Extreme unjustified brutality was filmed on multiple cameras.
That's when the protests scaled up to 500,000 people at some points. They also formed militia troops from ex-military to keep them safe. And the demands shifted from the EU topic to the replacement and punishment of the police minister, prime minister, and possibly the president. Still, the protests were largely peaceful, they were just not going to dissolve this time. And the president chose to ignore them completely and wait it out. It's winter, after all.
After two months of waiting, seeing people won't go home, they decided to criminalize the protests, free speech in press and social media, and a whole range of other common freedoms, giving more power to the police at the same time. Bypassing all due procedures (not even counting votes), a 10-pack of corresponding laws was passed. Then everyone with a brain saw it was sliding towards a dictatorship, and disagreements with the riot police got hotter and hotter, until it eventually came to tear gas on one side and Molotov cocktails on the other side, and now also bullets.
If you want more detail, browse the BBC new archives, their coverage is generally good. The only common mistake in Western press is that they still call these protests "pro-EU", when in fact now it's more "anti-Yanukovitch and his party". The most active protesters are from the nationalist right wing and are strongly against any union either with EU or with Russia. And the bigger, more peaceful crowd is also more concerned about overthrowing the oppressive government right now, and discuss the foreign policy later.
And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.
I agree GP was engaging in ignorant hyperbole, but at what the NSA is doing seems worse: they just file EVERYTHING. So what if they might not categorize it into citizen files before they have a desire to do so?
They might not have a file on me ready to go, but I'm guessing with a few keystrokes, they could pull together all my texts, e-mails, facebook, and google searches, then with a few more keystrokes could pull up anything embarrassing on me in the event that they need to blackmail me.
Fortunately for me, my whole life is one big public embarrassment, so they got nothing, but still...
> FUD. Pure and unstrained. You might consider that if we didn't shoot/bomb/torture so many people and left them the fuck alone, they might not hijack a plane and crash it into our buildings.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive, so I don't really know what's your point.
> Why have it in-house? What do you call an organization that prepares material for the Commander-In-Chief and supplies data to lawenforcement agencies? Do you imagine the the NSA operates in a magical box, all alone, cut off from the rest of the US government, and the US government has no desire to use their information?
I never said that they were completely isolated. But there clearly was a willingness to enforce a separation of dutie on this matter (which makes a lot of sense), this separation of duties has clearly influenced the relationships between these organisations, and this is also clearly a difference between the NSA and the Stasi (and I'm kind of surprise to see people jump on THIS difference in particular).
> Fucking jackboot licking shill
Three persons called me shill on this thread; the three were AC. Now, I'm sure it must feel very edgy from your POV, but trust me, you guys don't sound edgy at all. You guys sounds like excited dicks who would say anything for a reaction, and can't handle a real discussion when faced with someone calling your ignorance.
Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.
Hum... no?
Great explanation, the collect information about everybody, about who called who. How can this not be systematically storing files on everyone. Or is it that it isn't a physical file, so its different.
The Stasi hired your neighbors to spy on you. At one point, one in 20 or one in 30 East german citizen (can't remember the exact ratio) was an informant on Stasi payroll. If you have any shred of begining of hint of evidence that the NSA is doing anything remotely close to that, please share it.
As I said it maybe just that just more efficient to monitor all electronic communication, but I am sure they pay informants when they deem it necessary, I will conceded the scale is probably smaller, since they have other means, of watching you.
Again, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Because it really sounds like speculation.
Neither do you, it is speculation based, the response of the government, when the NSA goes against the constitution, do the get forced to stop, no, the government goes after the whistle blower. I know its not isn't proof, but to me it strongly implies a lot of political influence.
Now the NSA helpfully gives 'tips' to the FBI every day. Mostly in the form of "We, uh, noticed this person doing something. Don't tell anybody we told you."
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
So millions of my tax dollars goes into paying AT&T to tell the NSA everyone I talk to, when I talk to them, and how long I'm on the phone, and the NSA just throws it away? They don't put that information in a file somewhere?
Well, now I guess I'm outraged for a different reason.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
This order to disperse sponsored by McDonalds- We do it all for you!
Would like some government approved fires with that?
No thanks. We have cocktails to make our own.
Just because you don't look at the file, doesn't mean it its not there (If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound). The file is stored systematically, just no human looks at it is only a technical detail and probably more to do with efficiency than anything else. The will probably run algorithms run over it to determine which they consider interesting, it would not be feasible for people to examine that much data.
It is interesting how "piracy" originally indicated a company (group of private individuals acting cooperatively) taking property or resources a government felt belonged to it or its citizens. Now it has come to mean a government or its citizens taking what a company considers its property or resources.