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New England Burns Jet Fuel To Keep Lights On

First time accepted submitter inqrorken writes "During the recent cold snap, New England utilities turned to an unconventional fuel: jet fuel. Due to high demand for heating, natural gas supplies dropped and prices skyrocketed to $140/mmBtu and prompting the Mid-Atlantic RTO to call on demand response in the region. With 50% of installed generation capacity natural-gas fired, one utility took the step of running its jet fuel-based turbines for a record 15 hours."

53 of 230 comments (clear)

  1. Jet Fuel? by sokoban · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You mean, Kerosene? I guess Jet Fuel sounds cooler though.

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    1. Re:Jet Fuel? by crmanriq · · Score: 5, Informative

      From Wikipedia (ya, I know...) on "Jet Fuel"

      "Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). It is similar to diesel fuel, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines. .... if it fails the purity and other quality tests for use on jet aircraft, it is sold to other ground-based users with less demanding requirements, like railroad engines."

      So still not much of an event, other than to say "ooh, wow. Jet Fuel."

      --
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    2. Re:Jet Fuel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except that they add a few additives to it when its actually 'Jet Fuel'. Eg: they don't recommend burning 'Jet Fuel' in a kerosene heater because the additives make it stink (a bit more). When you run straight kerosene in Jet Aircraft, it doesn't burn quite as nicely (I've seen Russian MiG 29's burning straight kerosene, and they smoke a bit when spooling up and taxiing on the runway). I also assume they weren't burning JP4 (but I also assume that the locals don't have SR-71 Blackbirds laying about). I'm always surprised by people who yap that 'surely jet engines must be running something like super-ultra #1 aviation gasoline', but I then just assume that they have no idea how jet engines work. I *had* to learn when I got an AD in Electronics Engineering, and along with it took one class in Avionics (just the cockpit and E&E pit of a Lockheed F104 Starfighter). They insisted we had a good general knowledge of engines, flight controls etc. along with knowing the intricacies of the radar, direction finding, pitot static tube sensors, etc.

    3. Re:Jet Fuel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, they mean kerosene-gasoline blend, more commonly knows as jet fuel.

      Not exactly. While Jet B is a 70/30 blend, The more widely used Jet A/A-1 fuels are kerosene.

    4. Re:Jet Fuel? by icebike · · Score: 5, Informative

      You might be tempted to believe this was just the usual "Headline Hype" on the part of Forbes.

      However, in this case it was an appropriate use of the term since the units fired up were in fact combustion turbines, (jet engines turning turbines), also used on many Navy ships.

      As a consequence, the grid operators have resorted to some rather unusual steps. Energy Choice Matters reported today that ISO-New England asked Public Service of New Hampshire (PSNH – a subsidiary of NorthEast Utilities) to operate its entire generation fleet this week to help keep the lights on. This included firing up several infrequently-deployed combustion turbines which ran on jet fuel.

      These are usually used as a source of last resort. They are usually avoided even for peaking demand. They are loud, suck fuel like crazy.
      They exist for precisely this type of emergency, fuel shortage, scheduled down time of gas fired plants, or any grid failure.

      In Alaska where I lived for 30 years, you saw exhaust from the turbines, you knew your next electric bill was going to hurt, because hydro and gas plants were down. You also knew that the LAST backup system was in use, so you stoked up the wood stove and turned off all unnecessary electrical load.

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    5. Re:Jet Fuel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      suck fuel like crazy

      That's not even an understatement. At my utility we have three such units which would only be run on emergency, and we have fairly reasonable storage tanks on site, but once they start running it's only a matter of time before they run out, and tanker trucks can't unload fuel as fast as these things burn it.

    6. Re:Jet Fuel? by rotorbudd · · Score: 5, Informative

      "No, they mean kerosene-gasoline blend, more commonly knows as jet fuel."

      Jet fuel has no gasoline in it.
      In fact most turbine aircraft engines are limited to just a few hours of operation with any amount of gasoline mixed into the fuel.
      After that you you get to overhaul the hot-end with the added bonus of tossing some very expensive turbine wheels of blades away

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    7. Re:Jet Fuel? by OneAhead · · Score: 2

      It would somewhat surprise me if these large terrestrial/naval turbines had the same stringent purity requirements as their lightweight high-performance counterparts used in aviation. Probably GP is right and these things run on kerosene that doesn't quite meet the standards for being labeled "Jet-A". Which doesn't mean they're fuel-efficient or cheap to operate... burning metric tons of kerosene in large turbine engines won't make for cheap electricity, regardless of its grade.

    8. Re:Jet Fuel? by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      Back when I was in the Navy in '72, we often used small quantities of jet fuel, known as "JP5," as a paint thinner. (I'm talking about 1 cup or less, mostly used to clean brushes.) I was told at the time that it was basically kerosene. Now, however, I'm wondering if it had some special additives to help it work jet engines, especially in the jet turbines that helicopters use.

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    9. Re:Jet Fuel? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      Actually a lot of peaking plants now are natural gas fired turbines. Natural Gas is a lot cheaper than jet fuel.

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    10. Re:Jet Fuel? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      They probably are using home heating oil. Jet engines can run on just about anything that burns. What you do not want is too much soot or any abrasive material in the fuel.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    11. Re:Jet Fuel? by Pharmboy · · Score: 2

      I believe utilities have fixed rates, but also charge fuel surcharges, for times when fuel prices go up or down. Even carriers such as UPS, Fedex an long haul truckers do this. Right now, our trucking prices are based on a percentage discount against normal rates, PLUS fuel surcharge, around 22% right now. Power companies do the same. Of course, this varies from state to state.

      --
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    12. Re: Jet Fuel? by Turboglh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I overhaul the Pratt & Whitney units used by a lot of utilities, and their use in high demand situations isn't uncommon, that's why they're installed.

      Also, the choice of fuel on older units is predominately liquid fuel (jet a), with a mix of dual fuel (usually started on liquid and switched to gas for running) and straight gas.

      So, unless you have a dual fuel setup on your units, you're stuck running whatever fuel you always use and you have no choice in switching based on the fluctuations in fuel costs.

    13. Re:Jet Fuel? by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Here in Europe we've got subsidised wind farms, lots of wind, and not enough demand because it's quite warm. The result in December was negative wholesale electricity prices.

      I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether negative energy prices are good for the market or not.

    14. Re:Jet Fuel? by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative
      They are the same thing as in the jets, but since a lot of them are pretty old (but low hours) they are back from when the fuel requirements were a bit lower. Also I suspect a lot of the requirements are related to safety in situations where you cannot park a fire truck on the wing instead of actual engine operating requirements.

      burning metric tons of kerosene in large turbine engines won't make for cheap electricity

      It's expensive as hell which is why these things are normally a fallback for unusual peak loads.


      Some jet engines used for power generation have been adapted to use different fuel sources, such as a little 20MW Avon jet that's running on coal seam gas in one project.

    15. Re:Jet Fuel? by icebike · · Score: 2

      Actually a lot of peaking plants now are natural gas fired turbines. Natural Gas is a lot cheaper than jet fuel.

      Exactly, but in this case, as the summary mentions, there was a shortage of gas (or fear of shortage) and they fired up
      the jet turbines.

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      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    16. Re:Jet Fuel? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Great post - that little buzzword, "jet fuel" really doesn't mean what the uninformed think that it means.

      A couple points:
      There are various grades of jet fuel, and those various grades are suitable for a number of uses. Aboard ship, we burned JP4 in our boilers. JP5 would burn just as well, with less soot, but it was more expensive so we always specified JP4 in our fuel requirements.

      I've often read stories of aviation facilities rejecting fuel deliveries when it failed one test or other. That fuel is invariable accepted as a lower quality fuel, and used in less demanding aircraft, or used for power generation, or even used for diesel fuel.

      As for TFS, the reference to " an unconventional fuel" is completely off target. Following the links, one discovers that the generation plants have turbine powered generators ready to go online at a moment's notice. There is nothing "unconventional" about their use, other than the economic pressures which dictated their use. It is simply unusual for jet fuel to become more available and/or economical to use than natural gas. In short - the generation companies were ready at a moment's notice to fire up these jet fuel generators, which really are quite "conventional".

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    17. Re: Jet Fuel? by apc512599 · · Score: 2

      As opposed to wind technology which has been around for hundreds of years....

    18. Re:Jet Fuel? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Negative prices for how long? An hour? Two hours?
      Does it make economically sense? Sure as hell it does! Or why do you think power companies give the power away FOR FREE, and PAY ON TOP OF IT to the guy who takes it?
      Does it ever occure to you that the company that is buying today might be the same one that is selling tomorrow?
      That is it what the european spot market for energy is about!

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    19. Re:Jet Fuel? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      I wish people would stop calling them jet turbines they are gas turbines. They are not the same engines used on planes. They share the same core but often will have extra exhaust turbine stages. Even the engines on modern jet airliners are not really "jet engines" anymore since most of the thrust comes from the fan on a turbofan engine and not the jet exhaust.

      --
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    20. Re:Jet Fuel? by rotorbudd · · Score: 2

      I've been working on turbine powered aircraft for over 40 years and have never seen ANY jet fuel delivered that had avgas blended into it.
      A 70% gas blend would hot start any engine so bad it would be destroyed before it reached idle speed.
      Rolls allows, on it's turboshaft engines, 25 hours total with 10% mix of avgas for starting in very cold weather. Any more than that and you throw the turbine wheels away. (70 grand or more for 4 wheels)
      Pratt doesn't like any avgas in their fuel at all.
      The problem is the lead and sulphur in all avgas blends. It does bad things to the high heat materials that turbine components are made of.
      BTW, I run lots of JetA in my '83 Mercedes 240D.
      Just add some 2-stroke oil for lubrication.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
    21. Re:Jet Fuel? by fnj · · Score: 4, Informative

      What is the primary difference between gasoline, and any diesel or kero fuel? Gasoline is explosive, whereas all of the heavier oil fuels burn instead of exploding. Just about the last thing that any operator of an oil based combustion engine wants, is an explosive fuel. Gasoline will readily destroy any of those engines in pretty short order.

      Complete and utter bullshit. Ever heard of detonation? An atomized near-stoichiometric gasoline-air mix, port-injected and then compressed in the cylinder, burns smoothly under proper conditions in a gasoline (spark ignition) engine, and detonates loudly and roughly when improper conditions are allowed to occur. In a diesel (compression ignition) engine, the fuel is SUPPOSED to burn promptly at the instant of injection. It CAN'T burn any more quickly than it is injected, and the injection is controlled. The precise profile of the burn is controlled by the profile of the injection. Modern diesels have several injection events (up to a dozen or so) spread out in time for each cylinder cycle. If you inject gasoline or kerosene instead of diesel fuel, it doesn't "explode" any more or less than when you inject diesel fuel. Or you can inject peanut oil.

      The reason pure gasoline or a high percentage of gasoline as fuel is destructive to modern diesel engines has everything to do with the extremely high pressure injection system and next to nothing to do with combustion. The injection pump and injectors are designed for the specific lubricity characteristics of diesel fuel. Change that to gasoline and you will quickly destroy thousands of dollars' worth of parts. Heck, even too high a percentage of biodiesel is destructive to modern designs. Usually anything over 5% bio will void the warranty.

      You (DISCLAIMER!) put either gasoline or diesel fuel in a (SMALL!) open container in a cool, well ventilated area, and try (CAREFULLY!) to light it with a match, and the first thing you may find is that it is difficult or impossible to light it that way. If you put a wick in it, you can light either one easily, and they BOTH burn completely controlled, just like an alcohol lamp. If you atomize any of them, gasoline, diesel fuel, or alcohol in air and light the mixture, they will ALL explode.

      Gasoline has a much lower flash point than the others. All that means is that a dangerous vapor can form around an open container if not adequately ventilated, and that vapor if ignited can explode. For gasoline, the flash point is far below room temperature, and actually below even very cold winter temperatures - excluding arctic circle and beyond at their very coldest.

      The autoignition temperature of gasoline (280 C) is actually a little HIGHER than #2 diesel fuel (256 C) and substantially higher than jet fuel (210 C) and kerosene (220 C), but the flash point is much LOWER than any of them.

      The state of the diesel art circa 1980 was much more forgiving. The owners manual not only allowed mixing up to 10% gasoline with the diesel fuel to prevent gelling, it specifically allowed for using a mixture of gasoline and fresh straight 10 weight motor oil as an alternative fuel when nothing else was available. They would also run just fine indefinitely on 100% biodiesel, or even a variety of unprocessed vegetable oils.

      Even my 1999 VW was run by me for a substantial period of time on both 20% biodiesel and straight 100% biodiesel with no ill effects whatever (although by that time anything over 5% was disclaimed by VW)

  2. Invisible Hand by Mateorabi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So this wasn't an equipment failure requiring a backup, but just market price fluctuation: The cost of natural gas per Watt generated went above the cost per Watt of the fuel for the backup generators, due to the high demand for natural gas as demand rose as temperatures fell. Sounds like Econ 101.

    1. Why didn't the wholesale electric prices rise in tandem with the gas price to keep generation economical? Capped by fixed residential rates?

    2. Why didn't the generators use the derivatives market to hedge against spikes in gas prices so they'd be able to keep buying as demand/price rose?

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    1. Re:Invisible Hand by khallow · · Score: 5, Informative

      2. Why didn't the generators use the derivatives market to hedge against spikes in gas prices so they'd be able to keep buying as demand/price rose?

      I don't know. But this was allegedly predicted by analysts.

      A central challenge is that - especially in New England - most power generators do not contract for firm gas pipeline capacity under their unilateral control and instead rely on "if and as available" gas non-firm capacity, or, in some cases, capacity held by third parties. Pipeline capacity has routinely been added to meet the needs of gas customers who desire firm service and are willing to execute firm contracts for such service.

      The majority of gas-fired power generators in New England opt for non-firm gas transportation services. The generators have long observed that the electric market does not provide the proper incentives to encourage them to contract for firm transportation. NGA has encouraged the development of solutions to this power market dilemma, which causes uncertainty for the entire regional energy market.

      So apparently, pipeline capacity is built based on "firm capacity" contracts, but the peaking load generators don't have the incentives to purchase those contracts.

    2. Re:Invisible Hand by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Interesting
      FTA: Natural gas is classified as a 'just in time' fuel delivery system.

      This anomaly was preceded by huge increases in the underlying natural gas spot market price, in perfect timing with the additional cold bestowed on the region by Polar Vortex storms.

      Surely, speculators didn't drive up the price of a commodity right before the storm hit?

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    3. Re:Invisible Hand by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why didn't the generators use the derivatives market to hedge against spikes in gas prices so they'd be able to keep buying as demand/price rose?

      Well, they might very well have had hedges to allow them to buy at normal prices, but then they're left with a choice - take that super-expensive gas that they can buy and burn it, or turn around and sell it to somebody else at market price and burn something else. If they can get more selling the gas than it would take to fuel their generators with jet fuel, then they're going to sell the gas and buy jet fuel.

      Just because they have the option to burn gas doesn't necessarily compel them to do so...

    4. Re:Invisible Hand by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surely, speculators didn't drive up the price of a commodity right before the storm hit?

      Yes, it would have been much better for DEMAND to drive up prices right after the storm hit so that consumers would be unable to see the price rise coming and reduce their reliance on natural gas and suppliers would be unable to increase production to meet (and profit from) the increased demand (perhaps by rerouting from other areas which would not need the natural gas as desperately). Yes, that would be much better. ?s

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:Invisible Hand by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ah, the "markets will fix everything" (but didn't read the linked article) types.

      Wholesale electric prices did rise, to about $950/MWH, for about half an hour around 5 AM EST this morning. That didn't last long. It's now around $150/MWH. The price goes up and down by a factor of 3 or so in a normal 24 hour cycle.

      There's hedging going on in power, natural gas, and weather. But it doesn't affect the amount of generating capacity online on an hour by hour basis.

      Read PJM 101 to understand how this works. Electric power in the PJM region is normally driven entirely by markets. However, PJM grid control in Valley Forge, PA can order "non-market actions" to keep power on, and generating companies (which are not all utilities) are obligated by their contracts with PJM to obey those instructions or pay huge penalties. PJM doesn't do this often. Yesterday and the day before, though, were bad days. Both days, there were Max Emergency Generation alerts . The longest was from 19:19 EST on Thursday to 08:45 Friday. That's because some generating capacity was down, and peaking plants had to be used to make up capacity. That's part of what peaking plants are for.

      Wind power didn't help. Wind power was at a low when power was most needed. Even with wind farms spread over many states, wind power in the PJM area goes up and down over a 4x range.

      (Sometimes power is really cheap. The price can even go negative. Load varies over about a 3x range during a normal day, and around 2-5 AM, it's at minimum. All the plants that burn fuel shut down first. Much of PJM's power comes from Ontario Hydro, and when they have too much water in their reservoirs, they have to let some out through their generators. So they continue to produce power even if the price they're being paid briefly goes below 0. Adjusting the output of nuclear plants is slow, and they'll also sometimes generate even if it costs them. The wind farms usually prefer to shut down rather than pay, and so, late at night, sometimes the giant wind turbines feather their props and slow to a stop.)

    6. Re:Invisible Hand by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not to mention that storing enough gas on site to run a generation facility is pretty much impossible and dangerous.

      Even spec prices don't do you any good unless you have a direct pipeline to the source. Most places are on the large pipe network, and there is no way you can blindly pump gas in form your spec source and expect it to arrive ONLY at the those sites with spec contracts.

      Its easier to just add a fuel surcharge to the end user's electric bill. Which is exactly what happens in most places.

      --
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    7. Re:Invisible Hand by foobar+bazbot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ain't any "Econ 101" "supply & demand" thing. There's plenty of natural gas around to the extent that it just get wasted:

      http://www.theglobeandmail.com...

      Natural gas? Cheap and abundant.
      Natural gas in pipelines flowing to New England power plants? Not so much.

      If you don't understand how that would make a difference, it's likely you never took this Econ 101 you speak of. (That, or perhaps you think pipelines work by magic, and any mass flow rate through any size pipe is feasible from both engineering and economic perspectives? To put it in Ted Stevens-like terms, pipelines are like the internet, not like a truck.)

      Not to say the natural gas market in New England is, or bears particularly close resemblance to, the elegant, efficient resource-allocation method modeled and taught in Econ 101, but your attempt to use the practice of gas flaring as evidence that there wasn't a genuine scarcity of usable natural gas in a certain place and time discredits you by revealing a serious failure in competence and/or honesty. (I wouldn't claim to know which.)

    8. Re:Invisible Hand by NapalmV · · Score: 2

      So if you can't explain it through a shortage of natural gas, you're now trying to blame it on a shortage of iron pipe? You're winging it, there's no shortage of iron either. So we have the resources and the demand, yet the "invisible hand" failed to connect them? where's your "econ 101" when you need it?

    9. Re:Invisible Hand by spectrumlogic · · Score: 2

      What's interesting in this argument is the absence of discussion about a National Energy Policy. How many times can we realistically feign betrayal (profiteering and/or price/term fixing) before we realize we have to bake-in (rather than imply) social contract terms simultaneously with legal protections or preferences afforded to industries such as Energy. As soon as we get caught up in the details of the “market”, we divert attention from important issues...that the terms of the market are artificially created/supported by these protections and tend to establish havens for rent seekers and profiteers (unresponsive to public opinion). $40 natural gas is not competitive with other fuels...it is profiteering. Is it too much to expect provisioning for a cold winter might be a part of the social responsibility? Or will we simply allow unprincipled men to create profiteering triggers that we will inevitably trip. In the early days of the automobile before the rules for the infrastructure of the roads was fully thought out, the proverbial farmer plowing the road in front of his farm to generate towing fees was universally recognized as “bad form”. Are we holding out this problem is intractable? ...or that we lack the will to bring it under control?

  3. Re:What the heck is RTO? by lxs · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sheesh! A quick Google search tells us that iRTO is the Really Terrible Orchestra.

  4. Importance in diversity of energy sources by acidradio · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In recent years there has been a movement to quickly shutter "old" power plants that run on fuel sources like coal, oil and other less environmentally friendly fuels and totally replace them with natural gas plants. Natural gas has come way down in price also which helps force that along. But what happens when supplies of natural gas either radically go up in price or become limited due to some other distribution problem? It's a good thing that they had these peaking units ready at the standby along with a sufficient amount of fuel.

    Where I live (Minneapolis) a number of the local coal power plants have been completely converted to natural gas. There is still one large coal-fired plant though north of town (Xcel Energy's Sherco) that is not viable to convert to natural gas at this point and still runs on coal. Sherco was the quintessential baseload coal fired power plant cranking out 2400MW through three units. It has now be relegated to being a peaking unit for the most part, turned up and down as necessary. Recently one of the three turbines violently shattered, had to be rebuilt and was offline for many months. Sherco is the kind of power plant that was meant to be fired up and ran continually for a couple of years without downtime and without significant variation in the throttling/output. I can only speculate but I don't think that treating it like a peaking plant and constantly varying the output is good for it... and a number of other similar power plants around the country.

    1. Re:Importance in diversity of energy sources by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is not a problem with market-based solutions. It is a problem with a certain segment of our politicians waging a "war on coal". As to "why drug companies don't make new antibiotics", well that would be an interesting theory, if it were true that they do not actually do so. The main reason that it appears that drug companies don't make new antibiotics is because all of the "easy" ones have already been developed.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  5. In other words... by MrLogic17 · · Score: 4, Informative

    During peak load, the utility ran peaker plants. This isn't unusual.

    Now, running a high cost peaker for 15 hours, that's noteworthy.

  6. The gas probably just wasn't there. by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Informative

    NE is violently opposed to building any energy infrastructure.

    For instance the Weaver's Cove LNG terminal proposal in Fall River, MA was ultimately shot down because regulators believed there wasn't enough demand for natural gas in NE, despite the region having one of the highest prices for natural gas in the country. Apparently price is not an indicator of demand.

    Fall River is also in the process of shutting down a coal power plant (which the local residents are apparently dancing with glee over, despite the two huge cooling towers they made them build recently) , which is presumed to be replaced by natural gas capacity elsewhere in the region.

    --
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    1. Re:The gas probably just wasn't there. by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Informative

      NE is violently opposed to building any energy infrastructure.

      Of course they are, they buy it all from Canada for less than what we pay for it at home. And about half the time the NE-US buys it at us from a loss on our side, you really don't *need* to build new power plants or generators---unless you want to supply on your own side. As it stands, you're getting a hell of a deal from us.

      --
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  7. Re:5th dimension; let the sunshine.... by novium · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well, they should get off their fannies and do something about this whole ridiculously resilient ridge that's keeping it from raining at all this winter in California (and is possibly related to the arctic conditions elsewhere...?) Damn it, you just can't trust the military industrial complex to do ANYTHING right. Where are the supervillains when you need 'em?

  8. Re:5th dimension; let the sunshine.... by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

    I see your tinfoil hat is in proper working order.

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  9. iced... by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sounds like an excuse to bust out the extraordinarily high price cap. First shut down the coal plants, then free up prices. Newly minted fortunes. Thanks, Obama the careless.

  10. Re: What the heck is RTO? by Orne · · Score: 5, Informative

    Regional Transsmission Organization. After the deregulation of the bulk electric system, these companies are given the responsibility of monitoring high voltage transmission reliability. They commonly are also Independent Service Organizations, which operate regional wholesale electric markets.

  11. They should use the jet fuel by ozduo4 · · Score: 2

    to jet somewhere warmer like sunny OZ. http://www.weather.com.au/

  12. New England you say? Well let me chime in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I live in Maine. Originally for the south midwest. VERY south midwest. That said, from what I've seen up here, in Maine, New Hampshire, Mass. there's so much waste in heating going on that with proper backing of several billion and a 10 year plan, I could double that money redoing select pre-40's buildings into modern energy efficient levels.

    Where I live, its costing $400-500 a month right now in heating oil. That will likely go through March, somewhat into April. Getting on a yearly contract for heating oil, is the preferred method, since you're locked into a per gallon price. I won't be hear that long, so not happening. Not complaining, just my situation.... So, it's month to month on oil, or whever we need it. There is natural gas here, which the stove runs off of. That's it though. That's the ONLY use for natural gas where I live. In the south, nat. gas is used for stove, and water. Yes! My hot water runs off fuel oil! Absolutely absurd! Looking around, it would be VERY trivial to throw in a nat. gas water heater and integrate the piping for hot water if you wanted to switch between the two.

    Let's forgoe that idea for a moment though. Let's look at inline electric water heaters. Energy efficient, on demand. VERY good idea, IMO. This building is from the 20s or 30s. Updated to modern standards? Yea right. The wiring looks to date back to some time between the 40s to 50's. Possibly earlier. There are 5 circuits for the 3 bedroom 1200ft apartment where I live. Only 1 outlet is grounded in the entire apartment, and that's for the regrigerator. So, can we put an inline water heater in? NOPE! No GFCI plugs anywhere. Fixing the hot water, requires fixing the electric.

    It isn't even about keeping the lights on where I am though. It's ALL about heating. In my apartment, there's MAYBE 1 or 2 lights on at any given time. Seldom more than that ever. The main power draw is 3-4 computers, and a refrigerator. That's it.

    Heating is all non-electric here. And that's the problem! They gone from heating using, or not using in my case, electric from fuel oil. Did they bother to redo any insulation? HIGHLY doubtful. Where I live, the majority of people rent. The property owners? Some blue collar worker looking to make a few dollars on a 2nd building. Upgrades? This apartment was lucky enough to get double paned windows this past winter. Wow. That must have been a hellacious oil bill before they got put in.

    The real problem here, is you have all these old buildings from that early 20th, that haven't been looked at from an energy footprint standpoint. Millions of buildings! Here's the kicker. They'll likely be used for at least another 30 years. Probably longer. What are the odds that someones going to do a cost benefit in modernizing their 2nd house, when it would put them further in debt for the remainder of their lives. They won't. What does it say about the US in general, when you have millions of very energy efficient homes, and no one doing cost benefit and offering up incentives? Well, if they are offering up incentives, I sure haven't seen or heard anything about it.

    Here's the choice as I see it: Either you improve a whole bunch of homes that are sorely out of date from a modern energy efficiency position, and evaluate fuel oil vs. electrical for heating and hot water needs in New England, or you do nothing. In the event you do nothing, more and more of your money overall, goes to oil and the coal plants, that could have gone to updating infrastructure that would otherwise continue to be stagnant. My bet? No change. People apparently don't like change and improving things in this country. I do, and I tell as many people about it as possible. Why? Cause why not? No one else seems to want to discuss it.

  13. [OT] mmBtu? by multi+io · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Due to high demand for heating, natural gas supplies dropped and prices skyrocketed to $140/mmBtu

    Off-topic question: Do these people actually invent new units of energy for each application?

    Wikipedia

    A BTU is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of 1 pound (0.454 kg) of liquid water by 1 F (0.56 C) at a constant pressure of one atmosphere.[1] As with calorie, several BTU definitions exist, which are based on different water temperatures and therefore vary by up to 0.5%.

    The unit MBtu or mBtu was defined as one thousand BTU, presumably from the Roman numeral system where "M" or "m" stands for one thousand (1,000). This is easily confused with the SI mega (M) prefix, which multiplies by a factor of one million (1,000,000). To avoid confusion many companies and engineers use MMBtu or mmBtu to represent one million BTU.

    Somebody must have thought really long and hard to come up with that stuff.

    1. Re:[OT] mmBtu? by subreality · · Score: 2

      so working in megaBTU makes perfect sense.

      You just demonstrated the problem: mmBTU == kiloBTU, not megaBTU.

    2. Re:[OT] mmBtu? by fnj · · Score: 2

      MM or mm to mean million is a moronic bean counter business MBA practice. It should have died a horrible death many decades ago. MM in the real world is nonsense for mega mega, which should be T for tera. And mm is millimeters in the real world.

      M (mega) is million, k (kilo) is thousand.

      Any idiot can convert BTU to MJ, but when you see M as a multiplier and it doesn't even mean million, how moronic is that?

  14. Re:Not unusual in the least. by inqrorken · · Score: 2

    Actually, the Northeast is home. While shale gas has brought a ton of jobs to the region, and has helped to limit energy costs (just look at European residential electric rates!) we're using it in a blundering fashion. The point here is that we can't just switch everything over to the current wonderfuel - there are other articles, from the polar vortex earlier this year, that report that the Northeast's gas pipeline capacity was maxed out. As ever, we've got to be smart.

  15. Re:SR-71 = JP8 by stjobe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    SR-71 = JP8

    No, the Pratt & Whitney J58 engines of the SR-71 ran on JP7, a fuel specially made for those engines and that aircraft.

    --
    "Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
  16. Re:Not unusual in the least. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

    Actually, the Northeast is home. While shale gas has brought a ton of jobs to the region

    Living in the fatted area, "a ton of jobs" is industry codswaddle. The jobs are mostly subcontractor type jobs, and as soon as they are done in your area, those jobs disappear. It's only reasonable, you need a fair number of people to drill the wells and bring them online. After that? almost no one. In my area, it was about 2 years. There have been some sad stories about idiots who thought they were long lasting jobs. I recall one form a restaraunt owner who was shocked. She saw dollar signs, then had to lay off most of her staff. The field workers stopped coming in when they left. A friend took a job in th egas fields, then bought a house, despite my pleas that he not. He lost his job before hte first payment was due.

    So yes, you can take the job if you absolutely need to, but never fool yourself that it is not very, very short term.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  17. Cold, Starvation, Cannibalism.. by formfeed · · Score: 2

    Burning Jet fuel is just the beginning..
    Historically, it's not uncommon for some New England colonies not to make it through the winter.

  18. Peak load assets by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 3, Informative

    What *should* be scary but is being ignored by the larger public is how utilities are increasingly running "peak load" assets as if they were "base load" assets. To wit, combined-cycle turbine plants are not usually designed for continuous operation like this; they're designed to be brought online during peak load *only*. Base load assets like coal and nuclear carry the non-peak loads. The peak load assets are going to have much more intensive maintenance costs if they keep running them like this, leading to higher prices for consumers and the ugly potential for brownout/blackout when these peak load assets break down unexpectedly.

    Disclosure: I'm a tech consultant working with TVA right now, and this info comes direct from people who run these assets. We *need* more base load assets like coal and nuclear, but government regulations are making that extremely difficult. Indeed, we're having to *shut down* coal plants due to new government regulations, further stressing an already-fragile national power infrastructure. Thank god we're *finally* building some new nuclear assets (TVA's Watts Bar Unit 2, and Georgia Power's Plant Vogtle Units 3 and 4) but we need to be doing this on a much larger scale to meet growing demands for power. Conservation will only take you so far; at some point -- a point I think we passed some years ago -- you must expand capacity to keep your system fault-tolerant.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  19. Only as a consequence by Zeorge · · Score: 2

    Ships only have two fuel holds: marine diesels and JP5. Also, those engines are leased by the navy, and possibly by the power plants, and considering maintenance costs it only makes sense to use the recommended fuel type. In a pinch you could use a lower grade fuel but if you do that for too long you get a crust that forms on the turbine blades which then results in dismantling the engine and replacing the blades. Considering that the engine is within the bowels of the ship and would require cutting holes through the deck plates to remove them, you use actual JP5 for an aircraft. It just doesn't make sense not too.