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EU Commission: Corruption Across EU Costs €120 Billion

cold fjord writes with news that the EU has completed its first report on corruption in member states, and the results aren't looking too good. From the article: "'The extent of corruption in Europe is 'breathtaking' and it costs the EU economy at least 120bn euros (£99bn) annually, the European Commission says. EU Home Affairs Commissioner Cecilia Malmstroem has presented a full report on the problem. She said the true cost of corruption was 'probably much higher' than € 120bn. Three-quarters of Europeans surveyed for the Commission study said that corruption was widespread, and more than half said the level had increased. 'The extent of the problem in Europe is breathtaking, although Sweden is among the countries with the least problems,' Ms Malmstroem wrote in Sweden's Goeteborgs-Posten daily. The cost to the EU economy is equivalent to the bloc's annual budget. For the report the Commission studied corruption in all 28 EU member states. The Commission says it is the first time it has done such a survey. "

196 comments

  1. ... meanwhile in USA ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    We do not have "corruption commission" in the States, therefore we do not have any solid figure of how much corruption is costing the American taxpayers.

    However, there are cases that are so notorious that they can't keep it secret any longer ... such as that obamacare website that cost the taxpayers hundreds of millions - a website assigned to a company without any open bidding, and the company just so happened (yeah, right) to belong to a university classmate of Michelle Obama.

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by mattydont · · Score: 1

      I thought Edward Snowden was part of the corruption commission...... Or are we just talking financial corruption?

    2. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are anti-Obama, but you still think you are being impartial and simply reasonable in taking the opportunity to make that post.

    3. Re: ... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly when you are talking about schools like Yale and Harvard there are a lot if business leaders and others in positions of power who "just so happened to be classmates." Simply having been classmates with someone when we are talking about top level Ivy League Universities doesnt IMHO even rise to the level of being any more than coincidental, certainly not suspicious.

      The no bid contract on the other hand (nearly always suspicious and ALWAYS bad for taxpayers) coupled with the facts that they were tremendously under-qualified for this type of work and were unproven in being able to handle such a large scale web development project do, coupled with the previous information, rise to the level, IMO, of being extremely fucking likely to be some sort of unscrupulous run-of-the-mill government cronyismish corruption.

    4. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by SlippyToad · · Score: 1, Insightful

      such as that obamacare website that cost the taxpayers hundreds of millions - a website assigned to a company without any open bidding

      I thought smart people came to Slashdot. I didn't realize Fixed News Fuckwits were paid to troll here too.

      You should have sharted. It would have been more useful than your ODS garbage.

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
    5. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Who needs corruption? We've got lobbyists!

    6. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by umdesch4 · · Score: 2

      Pardon my ignorance, as I'm not American, but I'm confused about this. I thought that the two parts of the contention that you quoted were the "true" parts. Ie. that the website cost taxpayers millions, and that it was a no-bid contract. The part I thought was debunked was that there was any connection between Michelle Obama and this former classmate. Yet, you were modded insightful for calling the OP a fuckwit based on his first two premises...multiple times. What did I miss...?

    7. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh please Bush and Obama are amateurs compared to DOD. We are talking BILLIONS in price hikes, overruns,kick backs, look up what went on with the M114 or M60A2 to see how REAL pros do that corruption, sheeit they knew they were turkeys before they had even left the testing ground and STILL bought it, or the M247 Sergeant York where not a damned thing worked and it failed to even hit a stationary target yet STILL got sold, because the fix was in!

      So you can wave your little donkey and elephant flags all you want, the guys making the REAL money don't change every election, they stay right there in DC making bank on gov side then the lobby side.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      In the first bidding round CGI apparently won a competitive bidding between 4 companies (CGI, IBM, QSSI, and Computer Sciences).

      However, after CMS dumped CGI, it brought on Accenture. Technically, the way that Accenture was hired was a no-bid contract (because the normal government bidding process rules were bypassed because they would have taken at least 6 months and that delay would have been disaster). Since there was no competitive bidding, it's impossible to know what happened, but the smart money is on CMS noting that the California website was working and they picked Accenture.

      The real question is though why did Accenture want to do it now (it's a paltry $90M contract) when they weren't one of the original bidding companies? The smart money is that they were promised something bigger if they fixed the mess and what that will be the real story that we will discover what that will cost later...

    9. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by umdesch4 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that. I guess I have some more reading to do. This whole story just gets crazier every time I hear a new piece of it.

    10. Re: ... meanwhile in USA ... by letherial · · Score: 1

      "of being extremely fucking likely to be some sort of unscrupulous run-of-the-mill government cronyismish corruption."

      What you might call corruption is just another day in DC, We cant elect someone not already infected by this corruption.

    11. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 2

      you have to read between the lines. OP was a douche. Nobody likes douches. Myself, I don't know any europeans with corruption, so I can't speak to the accuracy of this report.

    12. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The website was made by a company that was contracted under the bush administration to do general IT service work for the government. They did a piss poor job at substantial expense, to be sure, but it was not a no-bid contract - they were one of four eligible companies which bid on the contract for the website.

      The no-bid and Michelle Obama nonsense is parroted by people who consume right wing news (propaganda) and mistakenly believe it to be true.

    13. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to add to your list the M2 (Bradley). Which I would have never known about had they not made that movie.

    14. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by erikkemperman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We do not have "corruption commission" in the States, therefore we do not have any solid figure of how much corruption is costing the American taxpayers.

      I hear you guys call this "campaign contribution". Maybe that will help you find some figures -- I am told they are rather outlandish.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    15. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by daem0n1x · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't worry, the biggest difference is that corruption is legal in the US, while it's illegal in the EU. Apart from that detail, it's business as usual.

      It's funny that it's the European Commission talking about corruption. All top-level politicians in Europe are in bed with the business world. They keep trying to pass corporate-friendly legislation and create new tax-evasion routes. Sometimes, it's so blatant that they have to retreat. Often, these legislations pass undetected. Politicians spend some time in public office acting as corporate moles. After that, they are given comfortable positions in corporations as a reward for their good services. This behaviour is publicly known and, honestly I can't see any way out of this shit. If someone tries to change anything, they'll come up with some "sexual scandal" to silence him. Just look at what happened to Hollande because of the tax raises on the rich.

      Europe is fucked, just like the USA. The foxes took over the hen house.

    16. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by daem0n1x · · Score: 2

      Who needs corruption? We've got lobbyists!

      That's simply legalised corruption.

    17. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pentagon Wars. Great movie to show how stuff works more than it should happen.

    18. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by N1AK · · Score: 1

      they'll come up with some "sexual scandal" to silence him. Just look at what happened to Hollande because of the tax raises on the rich.

      Yeah. The way they tricked him into repeatedly getting onto that bike and going to the same house with the same woman in it! If you meant, and just poorly expressed, that the scandal was only revealed because he annoyed the wealthy then you're selectively ignoring the dozens of times that low-tax or pro-business politicians have been outed for scandals.

    19. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by daem0n1x · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Having a mistress is not a scandal. What people do in their private sexual lives is not my business. It's a shame that the American puritanism has managed to come across the pond and is being used as a political weapon here in Europe.

      Maybe this is a strange concept for you Americans, but most Europeans don't give a fuck about politician's private lives. It's what they do at their work that matters. Anything else is just diversion used by the hidden powers for manipulation.

    20. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      You can find out how much the campaign contributions are, but finding out how much they cost you is much more difficult. A $1m campaign contribution would normally bring more than $1m of benefits. How much more is the unknown number.

    21. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is upvoting this pseudo-conspiracy theory wank?

    22. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Quila · · Score: 1

      I don't really care much about their private lives, but if he's diddling a young intern, we have a problem.

    23. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Just read a GAO report. They are usually pretty solid.

    24. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that china has found there is significantly higher corruption among officials with mistresses. Probably true in the rest of the world too.

    25. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have known a few people in fairly senior positions.
      I have never met anyone whose private life was sleazy and whose public life was scrupulously honest.
      I suppose, as a theoretical matter, it could happen. But it seems somewhat unlikely, and I haven't met an actual case. (OTOH, most politicians I've met actually _are_ honest. They don't get much praise for it, and they tend to be in positions close to their constituents.)

    26. Re:... meanwhile in USA ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      All that proves is that a man bad a hiding his mistress is also likely bad at hiding his corruption.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  2. Relation to Debt Crisis? by ScottCooperDotNet · · Score: 2

    Why are countries most affected by the debt crisis also the most corrupt?

    1. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      You haven't seen corruption until you've done business with China.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are countries most affected by the debt crisis also the most corrupt?

      Good question. Another question would be why countries which are most corrupt are also the countries most affected by the debt crisis.

    3. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't seen corruption until you've done business with China.

      Way to stay totally relevant dude.

    4. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try Montréal. If we're not #1, we're at least a #2 behind China.

    5. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a natural consequence of the welfare state. Once citizens depend on Santa Claus politicians for their bennies, the politicians power becomes insurmountable; they're immune, so they abuse their positions.

    6. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that corruption in the US is beyond trillions right?
      this compared to the US looks like nickles and dimes, the US doesn't just have a 1 trillion dollar corruption problem it has a 10 if not 30 trillion corruption problem.. (if you want to feel superior, you're not on the winning side)

      europe is just 100x more transparent..

    7. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Jade_Wayfarer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Russian here. I just had a laugh of the day, thanks )

      --
      Absence of proof != proof of absence.
    8. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by MachDelta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...which is why those hardcore libertarians running Sweden are counted "among the countries with the least problems," right?

    9. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It always comes back to beneficiaries with you RWNJs, doesn't it?

    10. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      What does welfare have to do with corruption? It's not the poor welfare recipients that are bribing the politicians.

    11. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus, you're nearly as bad as the second part of "how are babby formed," you know that?

    12. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russian here. I just had a laugh of the day, thanks )

      Even so, you should queue behind India.

    13. Re: Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I thought it was obvious that corruption is a huge money sink.

    14. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corruption causes crisis, and crisis causes more corruption. They are actually strugling to keep any normal activity going. Corruption will take over. It's no wonder Nordic countries are getting a bit tired of paying the lazy currupt basterds of the south. IF they can't get their shit together EU will fall apart.

    15. Re: Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go home. You are drunk. Or worse.

    16. Re: Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was obvious that corruption is a huge money sink.

      Rather. And I would have that this was obviously the point of my rephrasing GP's question in the direction of putative causality.

    17. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Plammox · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hello? The least corrupt countries (Denmark, Finland, Luxembourg and Sweden) are the ones with the largest welfare systems.

    18. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Egypt is a contender!

      So is almost all of sub Saharan Africa.

    19. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by khallow · · Score: 1

      What does welfare have to do with corruption? It's not the poor welfare recipients that are bribing the politicians.

      Rather the other way around. I suppose it's one of the reasons I've never cared for this variety of welfare. The poor aren't being bribed in favor of my interests.

    20. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Okay, so from context, I'm guessing that something in that post was ironic/sarcastic. Not sure which part, though, not being all that familiar with Sweden. What do you mean?

    21. Re: Relation to Debt Crisis? by madprof · · Score: 2

      Because those are the countries whose corrupt inefficient systems lead to bad choices?
      Incompetence in doing things like collecting taxes is left to go unchallenged. Money is spent on things that aren't needed because politicians are bribed. Services are unfairly provided due to nepotism.

    22. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Zembar · · Score: 1

      Saying that everything that you disagree with is corruption does not make it so.

      Also, by your definition, promising to lower taxes during an election is also a bribe.

    23. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It all depends on how you measure corruption. The study seems to have measured how many Europeans have come into direct contact with corruption, i,e, offering or being offered a bribe. My country (the Netherlands) scores quite well on that score; no need to pay of anyone at city hall unless you want to get something done in real estate or construction. Bribery is so uncommon here that the vast majority of people never suspect that a bribe is asked for when their request is turned down. But below the surface, where most ordinary citizens don't venture, it exists. Some have compared the nature and level of corruption here to that of Japan.

      The study does lighlight such factors, and as far as I know Sweden also has a lot less of this hidden corruption compared to NL. Not because they are a nanny state, but because of functional transparency laws. In the Netherlands, comparatively few people bother to check on their government, and when they do, they find transparency laws that are ranked amongst the worst in the world. Corrpution exists where it is profitable, undetected or unpunished. In that light, I shudder to think about what we can find in the EU offices themselves...

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    24. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree with the sub saharan Africa comment. In South Africa our current president, Jacob Zuma, recently upgraded his mansion with "security upgrades" to the value of at least five times more than the total estate of Nelson Mandela. In the past six years the Zuma family has become the richest family in the entire country.

    25. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Ahh I didn't know Africa had been decimated by the Sub Prime Market crash!

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    26. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by sir-gold · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals are concerned about meeting the interests of the most people possible, conservatives are only concerned with their own personal interests.

    27. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      BTW, in socialist countries, welfare is a kind of bribe, it keeps the poor masses living on those welfare payment in line, making sure they keep voting for the political parties who keep promising them the best short-term deal.

      Because Denmark, Finland, Luxembourg and Sweden are well known for their "poor masses".

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    28. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      President of Shmuckovia (yelling from the presidential balcony): "People! People! Relief is here! I am taking the extraordinary measure of canceling the debt of the People! All debts are null and void! No longer will you be crushed by debt as a result of..."

      President's Advisor (in hushed and secretive tone): "My President! What are you doing! This is just a peace rally! Gah! We're doomed, you fool!"

      President of Shmuckovia (obviously confused): But...but...I HAD TO DO SOMETHING! You said the peasants were revolting!"

       

    29. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by TheHonch · · Score: 1

      I slipped when modding... Why is there no undo?

    30. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Plammox · · Score: 1

      Well, least corrupted if you look at how corruption is defined in the laws of the land. A lot of the corruption is legalized by law(state sanctioned or state run monopolies, or oligopolies run by politicians) and thus not counted towards the corruption score in international rankings.

      That's a lot of conjecture in one post. But then again, conservative shills with their ritual hate of wealth redistribution would write something like that.

      Would you care to give some examples from the countries in question? (SE, LU, FI, DK)

    31. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sweden has one of the most socialist governments and one of the most extensive welfare states in europe...

    32. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sweden has one of the most extreme welfare states in the world, as do some of the other countries with very low corruption figures (and some that are hugely corrupt). There does not appear to be a correlation between the two. Welfare states have some huge drawbacks (as well as some benefits), but corruption does not seem to be among them.

    33. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Well, least corrupted if you look at how corruption is defined in the laws of the land. A lot of the corruption is legalized by law(state sanctioned or state run monopolies, or oligopolies run by politicians) and thus not counted towards the corruption score in international rankings. Funny that, just invent a BS reason for a protection racket(protecting the state's or your own profits, not the people...) and BANG! Not corruption, just the way the country is run. BTW, in socialist countries, welfare is a kind of bribe, it keeps the poor masses living on those welfare payment in line, making sure they keep voting for the political parties who keep promising them the best short-term deal.

      Well people giving votes for money and politicans giving money for votes is more like two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, but it's not corruption. Forget the government for a moment, if you want to say win a contract and it doesn't matter how good or bad your bid is only how much you bribe the person in charge, that's corruption. It's a form of fraud where the person doesn't do what he's hired to do, he's secretly lining his personal account at the expense of his employer. The money isn't taken from the employer directly but it's the company or government stuck with the bad bid who is ultimately paying the price, the ones paying the bribe will recover it through inflated prices and shoddy quality. Like a store clerk cooperating with shoplifters to empty the store for a cut of the profit.

      Very often the bribe is simply to get them to do their job like you're supposed to get a permit assuming your papers are all correct, but unless you pay the bribe it's going to get misfiled or lost. Or it's to make them not to something, like corrupt police who'll create some bullshit charges unless you pay them not to get arrested. As bad as the system might be, being constantly hustled that way is much worse. The system tends to be equally unfair for everyone, while the corrupt are all trying to gouge as much as possible out of you. And it's not like it's an either-or, just because the store is a monopolist it doesn't help that it's also robbed blind by corrupt clerks, it just makes you double screwed. Granted, I do feel some of my tax money go to useless paper pushers but I find corruption much, much worse.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    34. Re: Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather, especially in Greece, it is a huge source of missing income.
      If you just have to bribe someone 1000 Euro to skip paying 100000 Euro in taxes, it's no wonder your government runs out of money.

    35. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually the report very much tries to cover it. For example by asking businesses if they think the only way to succeed is by being "well connected politically" and similar questions. They do very much report separately on individual corruption and local or state level one. For the individual corruption, they also split it out by sector, noticing for example that in Poland corruption is basically universal in healthcare, but also almost only there, whereas in Spain it is mostly building permissions.

    36. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Megol · · Score: 2

      It's more correct to say that welfare states have huge benefits as well as some drawbacks. One of the most important is IMHO that what's called "the American dream" - that of social mobility not only is a theoretical construct but common.

    37. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The poor aren't being bribed in favor of my interests.

      They are bribed to not rebel. That's why you can give these modern-day "let them eat cake" statements without worrying about being dragged to a guillotine.

      But human beings tend to regard whatever they're used to as the "natural" resting point of things. That's why politicians can't comprehend that if roads are not maintained, they'll be gone eventually. That's why people can't comprehend that if they don't stop stuffing their face, they'll have a heart attack and die. And that's why conservatists can't comprehend that if they implement their policies of removing all maintenance from civil society, they'll get a civil war.

      I'm starting to think it'll take a major Western nation falling to anarchy to drive this point home again. Russia's fate did that once, but is old enough history to be ignored nowadays. Thanks for volunteering America.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    38. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And India. I had an Indian employer freak out and try to fire me when I pointed out that giving laptops we didn't even build to the purchasing agent was bribery. Given that he'd tried to bribe *me* 3 times before I worked for him, I understood it was part of the workplace's style.

    39. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not due to the welfare state, but due to free high-quality education. The welfare state certainly has benefits, but it comes at a cost: it rewards people for not working, thus boosting unemployment and taxes have to be very high and strongly non-linear, which is not only fundamentally unfair, but it also puts a penalty on hard work and investment.

    40. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      Sweden has one of the most socialist governments

      You're claiming that Sweden has the largest number of nationalized (i.e. expropriated by state) factories? I didn't know that.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    41. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      He's not the one confused here.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    42. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Flammon · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I know you're trying to be funny by saying that libertarians are running Sweden but there is some truth to that. Sweden is rank fairly high on the economic freedom index. They have somewhat low corporate taxes and stay out of wars and these are things that you'll find in common with libertarians. Having that said, they are not a wealthy country either measured as a whole or per capita. Like other socialist countries, they have to enjoy a lower standard of living than countries with smaller governments.

    43. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes welfare special is that politicians get to bribe people with other people's money. This concept is called socialism, or social democracy depending on the degree to which is carried out.

    44. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      Nationalized assets != Socialism.

      Socialism can be other things than just appropriating the means of production.

      Similarly, dictatorships might nationalize assets but won't be socialist, even if they may claim to be.

    45. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      "Welfare states have huge benefits."

      I see what you did there!

    46. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      They're all way behind Spain...

      --
      No sig today...
    47. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by bazorg · · Score: 1

      If we consider that the questions on the survey were:
      "do you feel that corruption is widespread in your country?"
      and
      "do you feel that corruption affects you personally?"

      then it's an unsurprising result. If people are told their country is corrupt and bankrupt when it is obviously going through a serious crisis, it is easy to believe in that story and perpetuate that perception of a broken country.

    48. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Evtim · · Score: 1

      No, I disagree. Best comment on the subject ever was done by my better half. Picture : we are eating a breakfast and BBC World is on the TV. Some man in the studio was just talking about Russian oligarchs and Putin and bla bla and in the end with pathetic aplomb he says "In short: Russia is a Mafia state"!

      My wife looks up briefly and says "Of course it is a Mafia state. So is the West only here it is legal, so they don't call it Mafia".

      'nuf said..

    49. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to get out more. Russia, India, and most of the rest of the world say Hello!

    50. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals are concerned about meeting the interests of the most people possible, conservatives are only concerned with their own personal interests.

      The thing about conservatives that always stuck me as being strange is that they consider self interest to be a virtue and they despise socialism but they are also often fierce followers of Christianity which, let's face it, is a pretty socialist religion. When judgement day comes the last will be first, the first will be last, one repenting sinner will rouse more joy in heaven than ninety nine righteous men and you will get no bonus points for having been rich during your earthly life unless you were very industrious at giving most of your wealth away and most rich people do not do that.

    51. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with the sub saharan Africa comment. In South Africa our current president, Jacob Zuma, recently upgraded his mansion with "security upgrades" to the value of at least five times more than the total estate of Nelson Mandela. In the past six years the Zuma family has become the richest family in the entire country.

      Didn't he also re-purpose SAAF rescue helicopters as personal VIP transports?

    52. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are bribed to not rebel.

      Except that they would have no reason to rebel even without welfare.

    53. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not because they are a nanny state, but because of functional transparency laws. In the Netherlands, comparatively few people bother to check on their government, and when they do, they find transparency laws that are ranked amongst the worst in the world.

      Heh, the current mayor of Reykjavik in Iceland ran for office promising, among other things, 'transparent corruption' in the form of a website where he would conscientiously list every single bribe he took (In case you are wondering, he's a comedian by profession and it was a jab at the local conservatives who were and still are pretty corrupt).

    54. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      Montreal is just doing its spring cleanup right now. There's probably not an abnormal level of corruption, but it's all getting ousted right now, which makes it a lot more visible than normal.

      In fact, I'd love to see the same process undertaken in other places... The EC should push for that if they think corruption is so bad, instead of just saying "Well it's rather bad and it's costing us a lot of money!" DO SOMETHING.

    55. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather the other way around.

      It's not a two way street. Think boss-employee relationship. The employee is supposed to do stuff for the boss.

      The People are the boss of the politicians. When a politician brings welfare and favorable laws and other pork back to the people who voted for him, that's just the politician doing stuff for his boss.

      The poor aren't being bribed in favor of my interests.

      You're not entitled to the poor acting in favor of your interests.
      If you want to blame somebody, look in the mirror. Who did you vote for who failed to fight for your interests?

    56. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      And for being lazy, you can tell my the huge amount of debt the countries carry

    57. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brazil here. Look at him, Russia, he is so cute.

    58. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The real question you should be asking is "why did they get rid of the confirm button?"

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    59. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You do know that corruption in the US is beyond trillions right?
      Citation please?

    60. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Socialism is not some 'thing' separate and apart from various implementations - it ~is~ the various implementations.

      Youre coming very close to the No True Scotsman BS.

    61. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      And corruption in China is absolutely nothing compared to the level of corruption in India.

    62. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Socialism can be other things than just appropriating the means of production.

      I lived in a socialistic country, and I was constantly bombarded from all my educators with the claim that socialism is all about appropriating the means of production and instituting planned economy. You must be living on a different planet.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    63. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really can't get behind someone who says hard work and investment is "penalized" when an investor still makes more money than a non-hard worker, and likewise that not working is "rewarded" when a typical worker makes more than somebody collecting unemployment. Likewise, the idea that any net-income-after-taxes curve that increases monotonically is more fair than any other curve is bizarre. You could just as easily argue that the most fair is a flat dollar amount from each person regardless of their income, or a percent tax on the logarithm of their income. Furthermore, I take issue with the idea that hard work is rewarded at all in an economy that does not have social mobility. Social mobility is a prerequisite to fairly rewarding hard work. The very definition of social mobility is such that if the lower economic classes don't have it, then hard work won't let them leave those lower classes, and thus they can't be rewarded.

      It really sounds more like you feel that hard work and investment isn't rewarded enough, and unemployment isn't punished enough. It's the latter aspect however that increases upward social mobility, and it's paid for by the former aspect, so there's your tradeoff.

      I'd say the social mobility aspect is so important, and so prerequisite for having a fair system that actually rewards hard work, that it would be worth it even if it decreased net economic output. I'm not convinced it even does that because social mobility can also help optimize job placements (and the Scandinavian economies are no slouches on the world stage).

      Kind of like, even if economists got together and decided that chattel slavery would improve the economy, it still wouldn't be worth re-implementing it because it's so monumentally unfair (and most economists have decided that slavery isn't a net benefit to economies anymore anyway). Note: I'm not comparing being poor to being chattel, just trying to make the case for net economic benefit not even being the overriding factor.

    64. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I think you mean that you lived in a totalitarian socialist country. Socialism comes in many types, eg co-ops and credit unions are socialist as they are owned by the collective.
      Totalitarian is bad whether socialist or capitalist.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    65. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      I don't see why you would say that.

    66. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by khallow · · Score: 1

      And that's why conservatists can't comprehend that if they implement their policies of removing all maintenance from civil society, they'll get a civil war.

      Then there are other sorts of mental failures, such as ignorance. For example, the people who think that they can give free unicorns to everyone and somehow maintain any sort of society, much less a civil one.

      I'm starting to think it'll take a major Western nation falling to anarchy to drive this point home again.

      When that happens, let's see how many "social safety nets" they had in place. For example, when we look at major Western nations which are falling apart, they tend to have a lot of social programs. They're countries like Greece not like the US. Similarly, when one looks at the worst off states in the US, they tend to have a lot of social safety nets, like California or Illinois rather than like Utah or Texas.

      I think the fundamental problem is that consequences are ignored. For example, the use of welfare to bribe the public to ignore corruption. Or the hard fails that come when one prioritizes wants in a poor way, such as elevating social safety nets over tax collection, law enforcement, or road building.

      The Greek government would be pretty close to balancing its budget, if it could actually collect the taxes it wants to collect. But it valued promising things over paying for those things.

    67. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by khallow · · Score: 1

      If you want to blame somebody, look in the mirror. Who did you vote for who failed to fight for your interests?

      I don't "want" to blame someone. And it would be incorrect and counterproductive to blame myself for something over which I didn't have sufficient control.

    68. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but socialism is a social order. You can have credit unions in a non-socialist country, because they are voluntary. And perhaps a socialist country can allow the existence of credit unions in addition to state-owned banks. But the kinds of productive asset ownership in a socialist country are forced, though. You don't get exceptions in a socialist country, that's the point I was making.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    69. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't "want" to blame someone.

      Then don't expect much change. If you want your interests furthered, you have to actually do something about it. To do something, you have to identify a problem - ergo assigning blame.

      And it would be incorrect and counterproductive to blame myself for something over which I didn't have sufficient control.

      No, it's correct and very productive.

      First, it's productive because as said above, assigning blame identifies a problem.

      As for correct, you have identified that you didn't have sufficient control. Now whose responsibility is it that you have sufficient control? Only you my friend. Do you expect somebody else to fight for your freedom for you?

    70. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by khallow · · Score: 1

      To do something, you have to identify a problem - ergo assigning blame.

      No. You can have a problem without having anyone to blame. And you can have someone to blame without actually having a problem.

      As to the rest of your post, I find it very disingenuous. Living in a populous democratic society, my ability to control that society is by definition very limited (unless I should happen to muster enough power to make that society other than democratic). There will never be a politician in such a society who would represent my interests precisely, even if I were that politician.

      And certain dynamics like the two party system or entitlements in the US are extremely well entrenched. There's a huge force multiplier to those who benefit from the dynamic of bribing with entitlements. I do not believe that there are enough people with my sensibilities to overturn these things at this time.

    71. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You can have a problem without having anyone to blame. And you can have someone to blame without actually having a problem.

      Irrelevant to my point. My point is if you want to do something, you have to first identify a target for your actions. It doesn't have to be some"one". It can be some"thing", as you railed against democracy (a thing) in the rest of your post (and again you demonstrate my point that once you blamed democracy for your limited control, you realize that it is up to you to "muster enough power to make that society other than democratic")

      I take it you don't "want" to do that either. So I repeat what I said: don't expect major change.

      As to the rest of your post, I find it very disingenuous

      And I find yours to be defeatist and reeks of learned helplessness. Oh the system is too entrenched. Can't do it "at this time" (So when? After the radicals succeed in make things even worse? After the collapse with millions losing their shirts, starving, dying, etc?)

      Difference is, if you're right about me, it doesn't change the situation you're in. Everything you complained about will still be there, spiraling towards entropy.

      If I'm right about you, however, you just might have hope. Maybe there's something you or some other more courageous American can do. I can't tell you what it is though, as that would just be me telling you what to do, instead of you figuring out what you want to do.

    72. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      Socialism (as Marx envisioned it anyway) is the exact opposite of self interest.

    73. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      And for being lazy, you can tell my the huge amount of debt the countries carry

      Yes well: Sweden 38.2% of GDP, Luxembourg 20.8% of GDP, Finland 53.1% of GDP, and Denmark 45.6% of GDP. (From the CIA world fact book, est. for 2012).

      From the same source: USA 70% of GDP (and that's apparently not counting it all).

      "Huge" debts indeed... So we're lazy? Well it takes one to know one I guess...

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    74. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      I forgot to include the Sarcasm tag.

    75. Re:Relation to Debt Crisis? by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      Well you fooled me at least, so it wasn't a complete loss. :-)

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  3. Re:€120 Billion ... So Convenient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think your calculator needs new batteries.

  4. Re:Faaaaaaaaaart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So submit a story instead of whining.

  5. What a load of bull by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    You gotta add at least one digit to that.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  6. "probably" much higher? by Main+Gauche · · Score: 3, Interesting

    120 billion euro? Internets, you so funny.

    To put things in perspective:

    1. Estimates of just medicare/medicaid fraud in the US easily approach $100 billion. I'd bet those estimates are conservative.

    2. Medicare/medicaid spending is only about a fifth of the US budget. (That doesn't necessarily mean that total US fraud is 5 times the above figure, but suggests it's much larger than $100B.).

    3. The Eurozone's GDP is about equal to (slightly larger than) that of the US.

    Put it all together, and tell me with a straight face that fraud in the Eurozone is 120 billion euro (about $160 billion). Keep in mind that for every Sweden there's an Italy.
    Yeah, it's "probably" much higher, like the Broncos "probably" lost.

    1. Re:"probably" much higher? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that for every Sweden there's an Italy.

      Fraud isn't quite corruption, for example taking bribes is a seperate issue from fraud, though often highly related.

      But yes, I'd be shocked if the corruption cost is 'only' 120B Euro for Italy alone.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    2. Re: "probably" much higher? by Damarkus13 · · Score: 1
      The article is about corruption (bribing officials and whatnot) not fraud.

      So, that doesn't really put anything in perspective.

    3. Re: "probably" much higher? by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think Main Gauche is more correct. What you don't see about political corruption is that the losses invest in themselves for more losses down the road. Borrow 1 trillion to stimulate the economy, but you really just paid off your buddies? Well that 1 trillion is gone, but you'll have to pay interest on it constantly. Institute corrupt policies on education, and you reap the losses of having stupider people. Corruption isn't just 100 billion dollar bad. If it was, any steadfast leader would pay it each year to remove it. Corruption is destroy your government, society, and civilization bad, and in the short run people's lives can be ruined.

    4. Re: "probably" much higher? by Damarkus13 · · Score: 2
      I'm not saying corruption is good, I'm just saying fraud != corruption. Medicare fraud, where bills are issued and paid for services that did not take place, is not the same as corruption. The article cited even mentioned that basically all bills are paid, and that they try to find the fraud after the fact. So, no preferential treatment, no deliberate intervention by officials, not corruption. Not good, but not corruption.

      Also of note, the $130 billion is not the amount of corruption, it is the cost to the economy in loss of growth.

    5. Re: "probably" much higher? by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Corruption isn't just 100 billion dollar bad. If it was, any steadfast leader would pay it each year to remove it. Corruption is destroy your government, society, and civilization bad, and in the short run people's lives can be ruined.

      Exactly. And that is before we factor in the cost in human lives. For example see the incredible increase in suicide rates in Spain in the wake of its scandalous banking and housing corrupticon, wheremajority of the top bankers and politicians have been implicated or sentenced but not jailed in corruption cases.. It got so bad that the bailed out banks were forced to tone down their house repossessions as pensioners were leaping from the windows to their deaths when the police came knocking to throw them out into the street. (tone down, not stop).

      Isn't it funny that you almost never see a graphic displaying suicide statistics, especially lately. If there is one statistic a corrupt politician does not want the common folk to see too often, this must be it...

    6. Re:"probably" much higher? by nbauman · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. Estimates of just medicare/medicaid fraud in the US easily approach $100 billion. I'd bet those estimates are conservative.

      According to that link, the GAO estimated $48 billion in "improper payments." I suppose that's "approaching" $100 billion, if you are free to take any number and double it.

      The GAO didn't say "fraud," they said "improper payments." Big difference.

      The author of that article said that Medicare fraud is 10%, but private insurance fraud is only 1.5%. Funny thing, he used to work for the Council for Affordable Health Insurance, which is a private insurance industry lobbyist.

      I went to a doctor about a bad knee. He gave me an x-ray, and billed the insurance company
      $1,000. When I got home, I read a medical journal article about my knee problem. They said that x-rays aren't necessary. I wonder how much the private insurance industry loses to fraud. I'd like a calculation made by somebody who isn't a lobbyist for the private insurance industry.

    7. Re:"probably" much higher? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Keep in mind that for every Sweden there's an Italy.

      As an Italian, I'd like to remind everyone that Italian corruption alone (60bn) accounts for half of the total of Europe losses.
      So the average in Europe is actually much lower than you usually think if you exclude Italy.

      Now we are also risking big fines if we do not pass laws that will fix the situation, but as you can guess, the politicians are not really inclined to do this...
      Everyone is still following berlusconi, who is the father of our new election law (the previous one was ruled unconstitutional), even though he is not in the parliament anymore...

      So actually, comparing the Italian corruption with any first-world country is actually laughable in any case...

      Did I mention the proven interactions between the state and the mafia, or the convicted parliament memebers? Well, we can talk for hours on that...

    8. Re:"probably" much higher? by GbrDead · · Score: 1

      Eurozone != EU

    9. Re:"probably" much higher? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Everyone is still following berlusconi, who is the father of our new election law

      You really shouldn't have thrown *all* your meat hooks away.

    10. Re:"probably" much higher? by Walterk · · Score: 1

      It seems fairly easy to figure that out. Take the total health expenditure per capita, which for the US according to the OECD was $8508. The second in the list is Norway, with $5669. Norway isn't exactly an ill country, so that leaves $2839 per head (33.38%) unaccounted for.

      If you'd compare it to a purely tax sponsored public system like Britain's NHS, that takes 3405 per capita, which would leave $5103 (or 60%) unaccounted for, somehow soaked up by the insurance industry.

      Enjoy your free market!

    11. Re:"probably" much higher? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      In the case of corruption related to medicare disability fraud, the "fraud" part is the healthy person wanting to be on disability; the "corruption" part is the doctor and/or government agency helping him to do so.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re:"probably" much higher? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      So actually, comparing the Italian corruption with any first-world country is actually laughable in any case...

      It may not seem that way politically, but Italy nevertheless is a first-world country.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:"probably" much higher? by Kiuas · · Score: 2

      $1,000. When I got home, I read a medical journal article about my knee problem. They said that x-rays aren't necessary. I wonder how much the private insurance industry loses to fraud. I'd like a calculation made by somebody who isn't a lobbyist for the private insurance industry.

      No, what you'd actually like, is a system of health care in which the price of the simplest medical procedures is not gigantically inflated by profit margins. There is no way an xray costs a thousand dollars.

      I work on the in the health care system of Finland, and even though I don't know about xray pricing here, I can tell you that if the figures I've seen from the States are anywhere close to correct, patient transfers via ambulance for example are anywhere from 4-8 times cheaper here than they are in the States. The main reason for that is that even though private for-profit companies are used here as well to supplement the capacity during rush-hour, the bulk of the transfers is handled by the hospital district themselves and done with no profit-margin attached. In addition, the private operators are chosen based on their prices, so anyone trying to charge something extraordinary will not get a contract.

      So I'm not saying that competition is bad, or that private contractors are bad. What I'm saying is that the current insurance-based 'free market' model is the prime reason the US is spending more money on health care per capita despite being probably the only OECD country with millions of people without access to it,

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    14. Re:"probably" much higher? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      That's a good way of looking at it.

      I used to calculate it like this:

      You pay a dollar premium to an insurance company. They take 15% or 20% of that off the top for administrative costs and profits (that's the item called "loss ratio" in their annual report). The doctor gets 80 cents, and he has to spend another 15 cents for administrative costs, so he's left with 65 cents of your premium dollar.

      The funny thing is that most of that doesn't go to insurance company profits, it goes to administrative costs.

      The other ways that the American health care system is more expensive than any others is doctor's income ($200,000/year for a general practitioner, $400,000/year or more for a specialist), over-treatment (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health/doctors-and-hospitals/choosing-wisely/index.htm), and our heavy over-use of technology (we over-use CT scans so much that they're a significant cause of cancer http://www.consumerreports.org...).

    15. Re:"probably" much higher? by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      No, what you'd actually like, is a system of health care in which the price of the simplest medical procedures is not gigantically inflated by profit margins. There is no way an xray costs a thousand dollars.

      Keep in mind, that any time you see US medical prices, they are inflated because insurance only pays 33 - 66 cents on the dollar. The hospital charges $1000, but only ends up getting $333 from insurance in most cases to apply to costs, and part of that has to go to helping pay for those that won't or can't pay their own bills.

  7. Perhaps... by apc512599 · · Score: 1

    The commision should resign in shame like last time...

  8. Re: €120 Billion ... So Convenient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ummm.... No it isn't.

    I cannot make heads or tails of your comment or even posit a guess as to whether you were serious, trolling, joking, or just plain ignorant...

    Or, what in the world, if it is the case that you were infact being serious rather than trolling around, the actual point you were trying to get across.

  9. This is what you get by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 0

    When you allow Greece and Italy to be part of your organization.

    1. Re:This is what you get by sir-gold · · Score: 0

      I don't know about Greece, but whoever who allowed Italy into the eurozone should have known that the birthplace of the mafia would be completely corrupt. Italy had so much surplus corruption that they even exported it to the US.

    2. Re:This is what you get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didnt get that. eurozone means euro-disney-dollar-shekels, right? not LIRA!
      FYI, the Italians, with their love of leather shoes and fine wine, DID NOT STEAL...wait for it...... ALL THE REAL MONEY....wait for it..... IN CIRCULATION!

      You think Italians are ganxta, you got lessons to learn....
      try the old documentary entitled, "The Money Masters", it`s on youtube, it`s 3 hours looooong, but it`s good as gold ore

    3. Re:This is what you get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Italy had so much surplus corruption that they even exported it to the US.

      Interesting thing about the founding of America, people generally don't sell all their stuff and travel for a couple of weeks to a foreign nation if everything is fine back home. When looking at the history of Europeans that migrated to America there are essentially just two stories: People trying to escape starvation and criminals trying to escape the law.

    4. Re:This is what you get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the most important category: those hoping to exploit the starving criminals and natives.

    5. Re:This is what you get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You forgot the most important category: those hoping to exploit the starving criminals and natives.

      Not really. The voyage alone was such a hazard that one wouldn't undertake it unless staying at home was even more dangerous.
      After traveling became safe you still risked all your life savings (If you had any.) by going there. Those who did were those who'd rather risk it overseas than stay and risk it back home.
      It's not really until airplanes became a viable form of transportation that people who weren't in a tough spot started to move between the continents.

    6. Re:This is what you get by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Obviously you didn't get the Bunga Bunga Party invite :D

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    7. Re:This is what you get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You forgot the religious zealots, a major early group of migrants that is still very influential in contemporary American society.

    8. Re:This is what you get by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      There is nothing wrong with my English.

      You want to get all grammar-nazi on me? I can play that game too:

      The word "America" is supposed to have a capital first letter, because it's a proper noun.
      The present-tense form of the word "corrupt" is "corrupt", not "corrupted".

  10. Let's call it lobbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and problem solved.

    1. Re:Let's call it lobbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Europe has lots of lobbying in addition to corruption. In fact, European corporations receive even more in government handouts than US corporations.

    2. Re:Let's call it lobbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, these corporations don't have the NSA doing their industrial espionage for them.

    3. Re:Let's call it lobbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they do have the NSA doing their industrial espionage on them.

  11. Re:€120 Billion ... So Convenient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey fuckers!

    Sheesh, people will fuck anything. Do you watch out for needles? They're not so easy to find.

  12. 120Billion? by hackus · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Try like 38 Trillion if you do a little Math on the LIBOR rigging.

    None of these people EVER go to jail.

    Remember that when you go to get a small business loan and want to work for yourself, instead of going on Welfare and working 50 hour weeks at 4 different jobs.

    Sorry we can't give you a loan, you are not Microsoft, or McDonalds.

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    1. Re:120Billion? by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      Shhhhh. Don't you know there is a media ban on talking about the Libor corruption case. Last thing we want is the peasants rising up demanding true never-do-this-again type justice to rein down on those financial big-wigs who perpetrated this theft. I mean, the peasants only got cheated out of their life savings on their home loans it is not like it was a real crime... Oh, look over there Football Champions League, yay!

    2. Re:120Billion? by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      None of these people EVER go to jail.

      Yep don't start a charity start an investment bank and fuck the Economy that way the Government will pay you for receiving you seven figure bonus.

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  13. Re:Faaaaaaaaaart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, because submitting a story guarantees it'll be published.

  14. Did they just patch democracy? by atari2600a · · Score: 1

    Let's see how this plays out....

  15. Too much inclusion by hooiberg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is what happens when the EU keeps including all kinds of countries in south and eastern Europe that do not have their affairs in order. Where human rights are for those who can afford them and where government employees need the extra tidbits to make a living. And north western Europe pays the cost of it.

    1. Re:Too much inclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      NEWSFLASH!!! Hollande, Franc, and Ireland voted "Nee","Non", and....
        "fuckoff or I`ll Pound yuz"

      The rest of the "euroshekel" zone were deceived by newspapers, television, their respective Member-State finance-ministers, tre-usury-officials, and of course the arch-conspiritors, the central bankers to the respective member-States.

    2. Re:Too much inclusion by Xest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If that's the cost of bringing those nations up to Western European or even Scandinavian standards then what's the problem?

      No one's under any illusion that expansion means bringing countries into the EU with problems, in fact, that's kind of the point. The goal is to sort them out and hence make Europe ever stronger.

      I live in Western Europe, I always have, and I'm happy to pay that cost. It's nice to know we're living on an ever more secure and ever more prosperous continent. Far better than the alternative of having constant repeats of Yugoslavia on our borders over and over and over which cost far more again in terms of military effort to contain or defuse the problem, far higher cost in terms of lives, and far higher cost in terms of ever more desperate people emigrating West trying to escape the war not able to bring anything with them, not even an education, because even their schools had been bombed.

    3. Re:Too much inclusion by wertigon · · Score: 2

      In the short term, this is true. Including countries with lesser living standards will cost the EU as a whole.

      In the mid-term (10-25 yrs), these countries will adopt some practices from EU-regulation, get an influx of highly educated workers that start to build up the country, all the while exporting cheap labor (both goods and services meaning immigrants coming to clean your house).

      In the long term (25+ yrs) we will see a strong economic country with high education and living standards. Not including these countries in the EU is very shortsighted thinking IMO.

      I do however agree that the EU cannot expand further until the economy is fixed - unfortunately the Euro is tanking very hard right now, but it may yet be possible to fix it, somehow. Don't blame it all on the poor countries though, that's just racist.

      --
      systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
    4. Re:Too much inclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's the cost of bringing those nations up to Western European or even Scandinavian standards then what's the problem?

      It isn't. The problem is that money is annually used to line the pockets of a select few. That's not the European or at least certainly not the Scandinavian standard. Extreme income differences are only more likely to spark things like Yugoslavia once again.

      This isn't about improving infrastucture or paying taxes but how the money is used and how legislation is bought, regulatory capture and the revolving door between corporations and government.

    5. Re:Too much inclusion by Xest · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But it's not a constant, it's changing over time. Many of the Eastern European nations have seen healthy declines in corruption towards the Western European and Scandinavian standards which is my point. There are still problem countries i.e. Greece and Italy but the financial crisis brought those glaring exceptions to the forefront of scrutiny such that even they can no longer get away with it and are being forced to deal with it.

      Income differences are continuously decreasing too as new entrants become more prosperous over time from having their cheap starting base opened up to the demands of the wealthier nations creating jobs.

      It isn't going to happen overnight, but it most definitely is happening. It's not like things are stagnant, it's not as if all EU nations are in the same place they were when they joined and nothing has improved or changed, that view is very much wrong.

    6. Re:Too much inclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also think that specifically criticizing the new countries is unfair.
      Yes, corruption is still very common in many (on the other hand, look at Estonia. I think they were also at the forefront in fighting for transparent lobbying in Brussels), but they at least made great progress, I believe all of them did.
      On the other hand, Spain, Italy and Greece seem to have made little progress. Well, Italy may be unfair, every now and then they seem to make quite an effort, but it doesn't seem to change all that much.

    7. Re:Too much inclusion by Xest · · Score: 1

      Agreed, Estonia is a particularly impressive nation, punching way above it's weight in so many ways.

      At the end of the day the EU puts strict rules on even entering the organisation, so many of the nations with corruption problems have come a long way even before they're actually a member state. Once they are they're still bound to long term improve plants or they risk losing membership. This is one thing the EU is very good at - improving balance of wealth across the continent.

      Nations like Poland have been massively transformed such that after the wave of hundreds of thousands of Polish immigrants to the UK many are now returning because they can have UK levels of comfort and prosperity back home now whilst the UK gains another nation that's got the wealth and need for it's vast services industry and so forth. It's win-win.

    8. Re:Too much inclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finn here. Europe is full of too many pakistanis, somalis and slavs to ever really be corruption free.

    9. Re:Too much inclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because corruption in the EU (apparently estimated at hundreds of billions of euros) is certainly only due to the inefficient (and/or kleptocratic) governments of south and eastern Europe. It's not like the biggest and best example of large-scale corruption and widespread fraud in the financial sector happened in London (with negative effects on the global economy on the order of hundreds of trillions of euros), or anything like that.

      Poor Western Europe. Boo hoo. Cry me a river.

  16. Open Corruption Project? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was in Bruxelles a few years ago, two guys at the next table in the restaurant openly dealt about removing unwanted topics from a meetings agenda. In the end, an envelope was handed over to the gouvernment employee.

    Corruption is like rats. The more rats you notice or even see in an area, the bigger the population.

    There are people e.g. in the EUs purchase chain that cannot be passed without "additional payments", and all companies involved happily pay and keep their mouth shut out of fear that the will be left out for future contracts. And nobody is going to do anything about the corruption in the EU, as too many people profit from it, at least enough people to effectively prevent any successful control mechanisms.

  17. It's a survey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The results come from a survey, it's an opinion. We all know media dictates opinions, except in italy: there is no corruption on italian tv's.

  18. Welcome to Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same as dictatorship but we give you the ilusion of choice!

  19. Only higher than in the US because... by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    tons of stuff that is called corruption over here is seen as harmless lobbying and such on the other side of the pond.

  20. Swiss banking commission... by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Funny

    EU Commission: Corruption Across EU Costs €120 Billion

    Swiss banking commission: Corruption Across EU Earns us interest on €100 Billion

  21. And now? by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    Great to know corruption costs so much money (as if we didn't know that already)..
    But what are they gonna do about it? I guess the won't as the corruption is in high places and they want to continue receiving their scammoney..

  22. Wisdom follows, pay attention! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You do not understand what the European Union is. It is not an economic alliance. It's sole purpose is to prevent large war breaking out in Europe (cue WWI and WW2). Efficiency, anti-corruption, economic competitiveness are all tertiary compared to the great aim of peace, complete with doves carrying olive branches, lions and lambs napping together and whatnot.

    If the EU ever falls apart, Britain, France and Germany will jump at each other's throat, Russia will invade Eastern Europe and the gunpowder barrel called the Balkans will simply explode. The use of nuclear weapons will lead to WORLDWIDE destruction.

    Therefore EU must be kept together, no matter how much it costs and how much of that budget goes to waste. Anyhow, if a corrput person receives millions, he will spend them on Ferrari, yacht, villa and gambling. The money soon returns to the circulation in the economic sphere and no long-term loss is evident.

    1. Re:Wisdom follows, pay attention! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is said, that the secret three-part blueprint of the founders of the EU is:
      1. no more war
      2. no more famines
      3. there is no point three--all the rest is bonus, following from the first two.

    2. Re:Wisdom follows, pay attention! by el+momia · · Score: 1

      Therefore EU must be kept together, no matter how much it costs and how much of that budget goes to waste. Anyhow, if a corrput person receives millions, he will spend them on Ferrari, yacht, villa and gambling. The money soon returns to the circulation in the economic sphere and no long-term loss is evident.

      Santa Claus is actually your parents!

  23. Re:EU is classified as an "Organised Crime Syndica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wow, what a conspiracy theory bullshit. Like any other sovereign state or supranational organization, the EU is not required to be audited by a chartered accountancy, but is audited by the ECA. Every year the ECA signs off the accounts provisionally, the only problem is that the current rules for the EU account audit require a 100% compliance for a full sign off, which is something no entity will ever achieve. You just need one person to lose a single receipt and you are non-compliant. Only so far, nobody has seen the need to figure some more realistic rules, and until then the ECA report every year is an invitation to sensationalist media and conspiracy theorists. There's plenty wrong with the EU, but this really isn't the issue.

  24. Malmstroem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So no UTF-8, and not even any ISO-8859-1? What is this, the 1970s?

    1. Re:Malmstroem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck, they even left out the n in her first name...

  25. self-enforcing cycle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with a crappy economy the rising star in job security is anything with "bureaucracy" in it.
    nothing needs to be done/create and paper is shuffled.
    once the economy has tanked enough, partly thanks to "red tape" and a efficient bureaucracy (everything’s relative, this
    is from the point-of-view of bureaucracy) graft and corruption are chosen by all parties to at least "get something moving" (the "fuk-it" moment).
    this again puts more power into the hands of the bureaucratic machinery (i got dirt on you).
    again, nothing is ever created. it is fake power and just a idea in peoples minds (scare them with legalese): if you cannot look at a piece of paper money and NOT see just paper, then you can understand "fake power".
    so in conclusion having a "paper shuffling job from the government" is sweet and gets defended "the wrong way" in times of tanking economy.
    this automatically leads to corruption and graft and even more bureaucracy until it is "too big to fail" and just morphs into the new normal state
    without actually addressing the root cause of a floundering economy : )

    "MEOR bureaucracy to the rescue(tm)!"

  26. Re:EU is classified as an "Organised Crime Syndica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just need one person to lose a single receipt and you are non-compliant.

    Where I work, if you lose a receipt then you can either ask the merchant if they can print a replacement otherwise you're held personally liable for the charges. I guess things are different in government.

  27. We don't have corruption in the US. by oscrivellodds · · Score: 1

    We used to have corruption, then we legalized it through the Citizens United vs FEC case. It IS the system now.

  28. Sweden != low corporate taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have somewhat low corporate taxes and stay out of wars and these are things that you'll find in common with libertarians.

    If you're an entrepreneur, you pay over 55% in (taxes + social security employer's part). Even for a 1-person start-up company.
    I always thought this was rather on the high side. Please elaborate, or I'm assuming you're talking out of your ass.

    1. Re:Sweden != low corporate taxes by Flammon · · Score: 1

      Corporate tax rate is relatively low. 22% in Sweden vs 40% in the United States.

      http://www.kpmg.com/global/en/...

      Don't get me wrong, I'd confidently place a socialist label on Sweden as a whole but it's not as socialist as some might think.

  29. mistresses by ProfBooty · · Score: 1

    Americans get uppity about mistresses as it means the politician is compromised in some way. The politician could be blackmailed over it. The politician is not trustworthy. It implies that they are corruptible and have lied and makes us wonder what else they have lied about.

    In our military, extra martial affairs are illegal for these very reasons.

    --
    Bring back the old version of slashdot.
    1. Re:mistresses by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      The politician can only be blackmailed if the revelation of said mistress is a cause for concern... which is only the case in the US. If the notion of a mistress is not an issue, then its being revealed isn't either. I don't even see what "corruptible" has to do with having a mistress (unless you take the religious extra-marital corruption line, in which case I'll just let you have fun with that).

    2. Re:mistresses by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Americans get uppity about mistresses as it means the politician is compromised in some way. The politician could be blackmailed over it. The politician is not trustworthy. It implies that they are corruptible and have lied and makes us wonder what else they have lied about.

      In our military, extra martial affairs are illegal for these very reasons.

      All of that is ridiculous.

    3. Re:mistresses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that the revelation of a mistress to a wife is a cause for concern, regardless of what continent you live on or what your job is. And as the saying goes, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." Ignore this at your own peril.

    4. Re:mistresses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How? Someone has entered into a contract (marriage) and made an oath to uphold it. Then broke the contract and lied while giving the oath. How are we supposed to trust someone to uphold their oath of office and contractual obligations to millions of people when they failed to do the same for their spouse?

      All of that is ridiculous.

      Hopefully I have cleared up the confusion. If not, may I suggest a remedial class on logic or ethics?

    5. Re:mistresses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The politician can only be blackmailed if the revelation of said mistress is a cause for concern... which is only the case in the US.

      I suppose, in addition to all the voters not minding an affair, the spouses also don't mind in Europe?

    6. Re:mistresses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The compromise is relative to puritanism.

    7. Re:mistresses by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      I suppose, in addition to all the voters not minding an affair, the spouses also don't mind in Europe?

      Well... they mind, but you can always find another one. Changing the voters is a lot more difficult.

    8. Re:mistresses by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      How? Someone has entered into a contract (marriage) and made an oath to uphold it. Then broke the contract and lied while giving the oath. How are we supposed to trust someone to uphold their oath of office and contractual obligations to millions of people when they failed to do the same for their spouse?

      Comparing apples and oranges.

    9. Re:mistresses by i · · Score: 1

      Actually, Hollandes popularity poll number was raised after this affair was published.
      In France, having a mistress is a natural thing. The only requirement is handling it discrete. In Hollandes case he did that, but the journalists did nevertheless find it out when they found that he leaved his resident through a backdoor and went to the mistress on a bicycle.

      --
      Mundus Vult Decipi
  30. South America then... by el+momia · · Score: 1

    is not that bad ;)

  31. Re:Faaaaaaaaaart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It can't be published if nobody submits it. Take a chance, just like everybody else that submits one.

  32. Re:Chump by Chickenlips · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering if you actually read the NY Times article you linked to, and have you read anything since? stunning-new-report-undermines-central-gop-obamacare-claim

  33. The More Government, The More Corruption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember Lord Acton's maxim: Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    The bigger government gets, the more corrupt it is. The larger government is, the wider scope for graft, fraud and kickbacks.

    This is one reason the Soviet Union was among the most corrupt and incompetent governments in the world.

    The longer a welfare state runs, the more corrupt and dependent on government handouts its people become.

    Greece is the inevitable endpoint of the European cradle-to-grave welfare state. All welfare states end up there eventually.

  34. Greece is the logical endpoint of the welfare stat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Chapter One (the introduction of unsustainable entitlements) leads eventually to Chapter 20 (total societal collapse): The Greeks are at Chapter 17 or 18."

    "What’s happening in the developed world today isn’t so very hard to understand: The 20th century Bismarckian welfare state has run out of people to stick it to. In America, the feckless insatiable boobs in Washington, Sacramento, Albany and elsewhere are screwing over our kids and grandkids. In Europe, they’ve reached the next stage in social democratic evolution: There are no kids or grandkids to screw over. The United States has a fertility rate of around 2.1, or just over two kids per couple. Greece has a fertility rate of about 1.3: 10 grandparents have six kids have four grandkids - i.e., the family tree is upside down. Demographers call 1.3 “lowest-low” fertility - the point from which no society has ever recovered. And compared to Spain and Italy, Greece has the least worst fertility rate in Mediterranean Europe."

    "So you can’t borrow against the future because, in the most basic sense, you don’t have one. Greeks in the public sector retire at 58, which sounds great. But, when 10 grandparents have four grandchildren, who pays for you to spend the last third of your adult life loafing around?"

  35. Bloc's annual budget by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    TFA says:

    The cost to the EU economy is equivalent to the bloc's annual budget.

    What is this number? It is supposed to compare to 120 bn EUR of corruption, but the sum of EU member states budgets is much much higher. Is it the budget of the EU itself?