Facebook Debuts New Gender Options, Pronoun Choices

beaverdownunder writes "Facebook has recognized it's a gender-diverse world — at least in the U.S. In addition to Male or Female, Facebook now lets U.S. users choose among some 50 additional options such as 'transgender,' 'cisgender,' 'gender fluid,' 'intersex' and 'neither.' 'Users also now have the ability to choose the pronoun they would like to be referred to publicly: he/his, she/her, or the gender-neutral they/their.' A post on Facebook's Diversity page said, 'When you come to Facebook to connect with the people, causes, and organizations you care about, we want you to feel comfortable being your true, authentic self. An important part of this is the expression of gender, especially when it extends beyond the definitions of just "male" or "female." ...We also have added the ability for people to control the audience with whom they want to share their custom gender. We recognize that some people face challenges sharing their true gender identity with others, and this setting gives people the ability to express themselves in an authentic way.'"

Comments

What's the difference?

[schneidafunk]

Honestly, what is the difference between "Trans Person, Gender Variant, Gender Questioning, Bigender, Androgynous, Pangender and Transsexual."?

Re:What's the difference?

[thesandtiger]

I don't know, but it seems important enough to some people to make the distinction, and it's reasonably easy to accommodate them if they ask, so why not just roll with it?

Re:What's the difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only real difference is that if you don't acknowledge the existence and the validity of these various identities names, you're going to get yelled at by feminist and equality extremists groups from all over the internet... but mainly tumblr.

Re:What's the difference?

[tsqr]

Honestly, what is the difference

Obviously, you are one of the 50-odd varieties of insensitive clod!

But what I want to know is, what does "Neither" mean when there are 50 other choices?

Re:What's the difference?

[kimvette]

or:
3. You have ambiguous genitalia

Re:What's the difference?

[phoenix03]

This is kind of the same feeling I've always gone with. I think the vast number of names can get a little excessive, but I guess if the LGBTQ community needs that level of granularity in how they define themselves, might as well go with it. How other people decide to live their life, as long as it doesn't impact mine adversely, is their own business - as is what they call themselves.

Re:What's the difference?

[SJHillman]

Gender is not the same as Sex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

Re:What's the difference?

[misexistentialist]

TMI, that's why. It's sexual exhibitionism, and it's gross.

Re:What's the difference?

[kruach aum]

Because the thing that allows language to be a communicative tool is that words have the same meaning for almost everyone. Rather than providing clarification, this glut of undefined terms destroy the ability of language to convey meaning.

Re:What's the difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

" tricker for people who had a dick but didn't want one" Stop whining and just live the life you were given. Stop being the victim.

Re:What's the difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

It can mean a variety of things. It can often mean that the external genitalia between a person's legs seems to be something between a vulva/vagina and a penis. This can take the form of, for example, what appears to be a vulva with very swollen labia majora and a very large clitoris that can physically resemble a very small penis.

Such persons are referred to as 'intersex' and while it's still a minority of humans, it's more common than I thought it was. The condition exist in degrees, and due to social expectations, relatively few intersex people advertise that fact if they can "pass" as one sex or the other.

Re:What's the difference?

[Dan East]

Or how about:
3. The rest of us really don't want to know any details about your reproductive anatomy.

Re:What's the difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks. A quick scout around reveals some wildly different numbers for incidence - A study by Thyen U et al in Germany found 1 in 5,000; the Intersex Socity of North America cites a study that found 1 in 100; Hughes IA, Houk C, Ahmed SF, et al give 1 in 4,500; Hamerton JL, et al give 1 in 4,200. Given that often parents decide what gender to bring a child up as and then have surgery to remold genitalia to that shape in the first few months of life, I wonder how many people don't even know that they were born with ambiguous genitalia?

Re:What's the difference?

[wonkey_monkey]

I have ambitious genitalia.

Re:What's the difference?

[Opportunist]

And "3. it's complicated"?

Re:What's the difference?

[Opportunist]

True. Proof: Everyone here has a gender. Very few have sex.

Re:What's the difference?

[Hognoxious]

what is the difference between "Trans Person, Gender Variant, Gender Questioning, Bigender, Androgynous, Pangender and Transsexual."?

Not much. None of them like beta, that's for sure.

Re:What's the difference?

[gstoddart]

I'm pretty sure I don't want to know the answer to this, but what exactly is "ambiguous genitalia" and how many people actually have it?

It's called intersexed, and here is some stats and more information on it. For years, doctors would just say "well, we can't tell, so take your pick boy or girl, and then the kid grows up and says 'WTF?' " because it was an arbitrary choice.

For some people, gender identity is a little more complicated than "penis or no penis" -- I've known a couple of trans people over the years, and once had a co-worker who began the process after I'd known him as 'he' for several years.

Trust me, nobody would go through all of that stuff (the reaction of people, the hormones, the discrimination, the cost, the upheaval to your life, the surgeries, people telling you you're going through a phase) unless they were REALLY certain that was what they needed.

I won't claim to understand it fully, or even be able to explain it well. But I do know these are real things, and that the people going through them have to deal with a lot of stuff which I sure as hell wouldn't wish on anybody.

Re:What's the difference?

[Elledan]

Ambiguous genitals can mean a lot of things. They can be just variations on what we often refer to as 'regular' genitals, as in female or male, with a gradual transition between these two extremes.

There's also hermaphroditism - a sub-set of intersex - whereby both types of genitals are partially or fully present. Basically put this means having both a penis and vagina as well as a certain selection of internal reproductive organs.

Coincidentally I'm also a hermaphrodite, and although I used to have both testicles and ovaries at the same time, I was born fully infertile without a womb. You can find more details about my situation on my (easy to find) site :)

As for how often it actually occurs, intersex as an umbrella term is something in the order of 1:1,000 to 1:150 individuals who are born with an intersex condition.

Re:What's the difference?

[Sarten-X]

I have a friend that is a true chimera. She has about 50% male cells and 50% female cells, and that included the cells that developed into genitalia and gonads. She has one ovary and one testicle, and a mix of hormones that wreak havoc on her.

At birth, the doctors assigned a male gender on paper, expecting that the female parts would be easier to remove later, but that hasn't been the case. At puberty her hormones changed more toward female, making a male gender probably lethal. She now considers herself female, and is just waiting to have a bit of invasive surgery.

That's about the most extreme form of ambiguous genitalia you can have, having developed from an ambiguous genome. Like most extremes, it's exceptionally rare, with only a few dozen people currently living. Less-extreme examples however, like 90%/10% splits, are relatively common, with a few hundred thousand such people worldwide. Some of those present visible symptoms, and some do not. Of course, that's only genetics. What someone associates as is another complicated issue.

As a society, we like to classify things in easy categories, like "male" or "female", but reality rarely supports such a clear distinction.

Re:What's the difference?

[Chameleon Man]

Society nowadays refuses to acknowledge and accept genetic predisposition. No matter how true it is.

Re:What's the difference?

[gstoddart]

The simplified version is that sex is biological, whereas gender is cultural/social. It's not a difficult distinction.

Except that some people don't feel that their gender matches their biology, and never have. To them, the plumbing has no relation to their identify as they experience it.

And then it becomes much more complicated.

Re:What's the difference?

[serviscope_minor]

but what exactly is "ambiguous genitalia"

Think about it from a developmental point of view.

Babies start off with gonads and a urethra and some bague other involutions, tubes and structures.

If you develop one way, the gonads move up and in and become ovaries. The tubes connect to one involution and become fallopian tubes. One of the ducts shrinks and sometimes disappears completely. The involution enlarges and becomes the uterus, etc. Some bloodfilled structure remains as the clitoris.

If you add a bunch of testosterone, the gonads move down and out and become testes. The tubes still connect to the involution, but it changes shape and merges with the urethra. The duct enlarges an becomes the prostate. The blood filled structure enlarges joins with stuff and becomes the penis. etc.

Basically, any of those parts can go wrong.

Re:What's the difference?

[kruach aum]

But this is not more precise language, because none of these terms have rigid definitions, because the people who use them use them inconsistently. More precise language is always to be welcomed, but more terms does not necessarily mean more definitions.

Re:What's the difference?

[Wonko the Sane]

Nothing. They all have mental disorders relating to self image, usually due to being molested as a kid. Oops, did I just drop a big bag of reality on the discussion?

This. I'll never understand why when someone "thinks they're the opposite gender" we don't try and fix their mind to match their body but instead are willing to send them through some incredibly dangerous and life-shortening medical procedures to do the exact opposite.

$$$

Also, there's far too much child sexual abuse in the world, with a disturbingly high fraction of they population complicit in one way or another, for society to talk honestly about the topic. There is a very vocal minority with an extremely strong incentive to divert any discussions away from that area.

Re:What's the difference?

[Sarten-X]

Ok, everybody. Self-classification is gross, because misexistentialist says so.

In the interest of public decency, you are now "poor" if you're unable to afford food or clothing, and everyone else is "rich". There is to be no further differentiation, so we can forget all of that "middle class" nonsense.

It you were born within the bounds of the United States of America, you are an American. Everyone else is a foreigner, regardless of immigration, heritage, or temporary circumstances.

Whenever the ambient temperature is above 32 degrees Fahrenheit, it is "warm", and for the sake of avoiding disgusting differentiation, everyone must wear their state-issued "warm" clothes. At 32 degrees Fahrenheit and below, it is "cold", and we all must wear the appropriate "cold" clothing.

Of course, not everyone will want to follow these new rules, but we have a suitable and tasteful classification for that as well. Those who conform will be considered "comrades", and those who violate these basic rules for a civil society will be deemed "unpersons" and will no longer be welcome here.

Re:What's the difference?

[serviscope_minor]

Stop whining and just live the life you were given.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

--George Bernard Shaw

Re:What's the difference?

[gstoddart]

Ill note you didnt answer the question of "how many people actually have it".

The hell I didn't.

The second link provides statistics on how many people with the various types by births and was identified as such.

I'll note that you didn't read the links. But if you need it spoon fed to you:

Not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) one in 770 births
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to "normalize" genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births

Re:What's the difference?

[sexconker]

Stop whining and just live the life you were given.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

--George Bernard Shaw

What fucking horseshit.
Reasonable people do reasonable things and expect others to do the same, unreasonable people do unreasonable things and expect others to do the same.
Making the world change in an unreasonable way does not beget progress.

Re:What's the difference?

[sexconker]

If all of them are going to become mainstream, LGBTQ is going to need a whole lot more letters. I think it'd be best if we picked a handful of definitions and allowed for ranges within them. Vegetarianism has done this - sure, there's various names like octo-lacto-vegetarian for different degrees of it, but most of the time getting that specific only matters in the context of certain situations. I have no problem with recognizing different genders, but the more you try to granularize it, the more trouble you're going to run into defining them until every person on Earth uses a slightly different definition.

Vegetarian - doesn't consume animal products.
Vegan - doesn't consume or use animal products.
Hypocrite - claims to be a vegetarian but eats dairy, or fish, etc.
Moron - claims to be vegan but has a leather satchel.

"Vegetarians" who eat dairy or fish are absolutely not vegetarians and would never have called themselves vegetarians a few decades ago. But LA and New York hipster shits decided it was in vogue, then idiots who weren't vegetarians wanted to claim to be one, so they did, and now the word has been ruined.

Re: What's the difference?

[pla]

Because people want to know your gender for a reason, not just as an abstract set of meaningless adjectives you wish applied to you.

In most cases, I really don't care about your gender. If I bother to look it up or ask, though, I damned well want an answer like "male", "female", "indeterminate", or "undisclosed". And if I bother to inquire about it, I want your answer of "male" to mean the genotype XY, not "it's complicated but I tend to wear men's clothing and take top during sex". In that case, just go with "undisclosed".

And yes, before some pedant chimes in, I know the difference between genotype and social gender identity - I just don't care if your self-image involves referring to yourself as a translucent cloud of neon green glitter.

Re:What's the difference?

[mwvdlee]

Is there also a "Don't want Facebook to know" option?

Re:What's the difference?

[mcgrew]

In the fifteenth century, yeah. Not today. Lack of a dick does not make you a woman and the presence of one does not make you a man. As yet we cannot change a person's gender, only their appearance. Whether you're a man or a woman depends on whether or not you have a Y chromosome.

That said, there are a very few folks with some strange DNA; two Ys, Two Y's and an X, three Xes, etc. However, these folks have far worse problems than gender identity.

Re:What's the difference?

[Valdrax]

Yes, I am because that's exactly what's happening. Sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the opposite sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. I don't need to see 50 god damned options so you can personally identify the exact brand/amount of penis/vagina/other you like or don't like to me.

Sexual orientation != gender != physical sex (and certainly != some fetish).

And frankly, it's isn't about you. Or me. Or anyone else but the person trying to deal with their own identity. I'm lucky to be part of the majority, but I've known people who didn't fit into the simple M/F boxes, and if it helps them find a place, then I'm all for it.

Re:What's the difference?

[gorzek]

Few things have a "set meaning" because that's how language works. Meanings are consensual, not static nor existing in some abstract, pure form. Any identity one claims is not necessarily a precise description of who they are--I know several people who, in fact, do not find any of the existing gender or sexual orientation designations precise enough to fully agree with, but they'll claim the one that's closest because it's preferable to have some identity than be left in the uncomfortable position of not having a term to identity with at all.

The issue with "male" and "female" is not a lack of precision but rather their narrow scope and insufficiency for describing various realities. There is a difference between having to use a term you don't identify with at all and using one that you don't completely identify with but find close enough to suit your purposes.

This is why "male" and "female" (or, if you prefer, "man" and "woman") get modifiers. Designated male/female at birth, trans woman/man, etc. In and of themselves, they don't necessarily say enough to constitute something one is comfortable identifying with.

Basically, the purpose is for people to have terms describing identities they are comfortable claiming as their own, rather than forcing them to fit inside boxes others have built and insist on keeping narrow and limited. I may be explaining it poorly but that's where I'm coming from. (I say this as a hetero cisgender male, so I have no personal stake other than my friends who do.)

Re: What's the difference?

[Obfuscant]

And if I bother to inquire about it, I want your answer of "male" to mean the genotype XY,

So if someone asks you where the bathroom is and you can't immediately tell from how they are dressed whether they want the Gents or the Gals version, you think the proper way to determine the answer is to know their genotype? You'd really tell a post-op trans XY now-woman to use the men's room?

Re:What's the difference?

[AlphaWolf_HK]

Because after a point you have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to being politically correct. I mean we already have to write "he or she put on his or her hat" where we used to just write "he put on his hat" when writing about an unknown person, because the later method might offend somebody when no offense was ever intended.

I mean what, now we have to go back and rewrite every personnel database management system to include every new form of gender that somebody can philosophically surmise in order to comply with anti-discrimination laws? Shit, every year somebody comes up with a new one.

Really, if gender is that unimportant to you, then just pick one of the two at random and let everybody else get on with their business.

the difference?

[Cruciform]

Transgender vs. Transsexual generally refer to someone who hasn't had surgery, and someone who has, respectively.
An androgynous person doesn't present as one gender or another.
Gender questioning is pretty obvious, with the individual in the process of working out inner feelings and unsure how they're presenting.
Bigender, I'm not sure of. Maybe someone who is comfortable switching gender roles in a culture with 2 or more genders. (Some cultures have several)
Pangender sounds like a lot of work.

Re:Super gender queer

[DeathToBill]

Indeed this seems to be almost the last taboo of Western society. We've come around to divorce, adultery, homosexuality, bisexuality, 'free love', transexuality, BDSM, gay marriage...

But promise two women you'll never leave them and it's prison for you, mister.

Instead of 50, why not none, or 1 billion?

[petes_PoV]

The people you _really_ know (as opposed to merely have "friended") will already know your gender, preferences, propensities and how you wish to be known. For all the rest, it shouldn't even matter. If you want to refer to a person, use their name, initials (e.g. PP) or online nickname.

Either that, or let each individual FB-er choose a unique description for themselves - in their own language.

Re:Instead of 50, why not none, or 1 billion?

[Sockatume]

To be blunt, they can't perform demographic analysis for advertising on the basis of a free text field.

Re:Database Upgrades?

[Shados]

Like you said, 1 to N, then its just the primary key to store.

Even if you only use 1 character, you still need link tables for display text, translations, etc. So this doesn't add much.

Re:Gender neutral?

[tsqr]

No, "they/their" is plural. Using it as gender neutral for a single person is just stupid and bad grammar.

You should try to get in the habit of looking things up, just to be sure, before engaging in ad hominem. From dictionary.com's entry for "They":

Usage note
Long before the use of generic he was condemned as sexist, the pronouns they, their, and them were used in educated speech and in all but the most formal writing to refer to indefinite pronouns and to singular nouns of general personal reference, probably because such nouns are often not felt to be exclusively singular: If anyone calls, tell them I'll be back at six. Everyone began looking for their books at once. Such use is not a recent development, nor is it a mark of ignorance.

Re:Super gender queer

[SJHillman]

You forgot about bestiality, at least in certain parts of the South.

Sounds like a bad idea

[wisnoskij]

There will always be someone claiming to not fit into any of the classifications you supply, and now they can claim you are specifically hurting them.

These new genders are for hipsters, as soon as they become mainstream they will switch to something new and yell foul that you are not accommodating them.

Re:Gender neutral?

[Sockatume]

"It" is used exclusively to refer to nonhuman objects, and has a long history in writing as a way of emphasising that something ostensibly or previously human is not. If you can't see the reason for offense, you either don't read much or don't encounter human beings very often.

Re:Why not

[Yaotzin]

Or just:

• [ ] Male
• [ ] Female
• [ ] It's complicated

Re:Gender neutral?

[mjr167]

English (like most languages) has three third person singular pronouns: 'he', 'she', and 'it'. Other languages even have gender identifying second person pronouns and gender identifying plural pronouns. English seems to have gotten jipped on the supply of pronouns. If you do not understand our array of available pronouns and their correct usage, then you obviously do not use language much.

We often apply 'he' and 'she' to non human objects, however we balk at apply 'it' to people. In fact, in most other languages each object has actually been assigned a de facto gender. English is perhaps the most gender neutral language currently in use.

We get all uppity about people referring to themselves as 'we' because it makes them sound elitist due to the historic habit of royalty using 'we', so why should we let people incorrectly use 'they'? 'They' implies that there is more than one of you. The misuse of 'they' as a gender neutral person is a terrible abuse of the language.

The fact that our literature and fiction place so much emphasis on the usage of 'it' to refer to a dehumanized creature is telling about how much importance our culture places on gender. If it is now culturally acceptable to not have a gender, then it should be acceptable to call you 'it' since the removal of the gender is no longer offensive as gender is no longer a required trait of being human.

If you have no gender and don't want to be called a 'he' or 'she', well we have to call you something so 'it' is the correct choice (unless there is more than one of you). You can't both be offended at me applying a gender to you and then offended when I don't.

Re:Gender neutral?

[wonkey_monkey]

"It" is used exclusively to refer to nonhuman objects

"It's not you, it's me."

I miss the most important choice in that list

[Opportunist]

"Not your fucking business"

Re:I miss the most important choice in that list

[interkin3tic]

That choice is made by not signing up with facebook. Your personal information is pretty much their entire business.

Re:Gender neutral?

[Sockatume]

You're seriously claiming that the ability of a group of people to determine how they prefer to be referred to is Orwellian? Do you even know what "Orwellian" means? I mean, do you even know the plot outline of 1984?

Re:Super gender queer

[ClayDowling]

Dude, if prison is the worst thing that happens from promising two different women that you'll never leave them, you got off light. The real horror show is when you come home and they're sitting on your couch, having coffee.

Re:Super gender queer

[DeathToBill]

There's, like, this series of books? Something about low-resolution monochrome?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Why not

[TangoMargarine]

[ ] Male
[ ] Female
[ ] Likely To Be Offended

Re:Who care's

[Fwipp]

Labels are words that allow us to communicate things about ourselves. I'm not "allowing others to define" me by saying I'm a transgender woman - I'm describing myself.

Re:Super gender queer

[Ralph Wiggam]

But promise two women you'll never leave them and it's prison for you, mister.

You can promise 100 people that you'll never leave them and the government won't care at all. The government's crack down on polygamist sects was based on sexual abuse of minors and welfare fraud. In polygamist communities in Utah and Arizona, almost every family involved one legal marriage and the other wives file for welfare as unwed mothers with unknown fathers. It's impossible for one guy to support a dozen kids in the middle of nowhere, so they scam the government for grocery money.

Read the testimony of the 14 year olds that Warren Jeffs pressured into "spiritual marriages" with older men. This was not the Big Evil Government picking on an innocent minority group.