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NRC Expects Applications To Operate Reactors Beyond 60 Years

mdsolar writes with news that the aging reactor fleet in the U.S. will likely see units hitting 80 or more years of use before being decommissioned. From the article: "Officials of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission and the nuclear power industry expect the first application to be filed with the agency in 2018 or 2019 for a license renewal to operate a power reactor or reactors beyond 60 years. At a Nuclear Energy Institute forum in Washington Tuesday, neither NRC nor industry officials named specific plants considered likely to apply, and it was not clear from their remarks if any nuclear operator has yet volunteered to be the first to apply." Also see the staff report on preparing for the first applications. The proposed operating license changes would place no limit on the number of 20 year extensions, so perhaps a few reactors will end up in operation for a full century (if there's anyone left who can remember how to operate them then).

38 of 135 comments (clear)

  1. Oh NRC... get your crap together by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The existing nuclear plants are definitely approaching end of life. New nuclear plants and technologies are pretty damned far away. The NRC definitely needs to shut down some of the older plants. What's more, the NRC definitely needs to start approving new plants and nuclear technologies more quickly. The licensing process is amazingly expensive. We're quickly going to arrive at an energy crisis due to lack of action.

    1. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by iggymanz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      reactors can be refurbished (usually "head" replacement, about $120M ten years ago), steam generators and primary coolant pumps replaced, etc.

      I was scheduler in nuke plant, saw all those things done

    2. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that they don't want to allow any new reactors to be built. Also if the existing reactors are shutdown they all end up out of work.
      The best solution, as far as any employee of the NRC is concerned, is extend the existing reactors life.

      For the record, I am pro Nuclear power.
      But I am also cynical as hell.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    3. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by nojayuk · · Score: 4, Informative

      I recall reading somewhere that the NRC has a two-year backlog in its approvals process i.e. a power generating company submitting paperwork for a Construction and Operating Licence (COL) today will get it looked at in 2016 at the earliest with a three to five year delay after that for a yes/no decision. The NRC is a US government department hence it's underfunded and woefully understaffed especially in the technical divisions as there are better career opportunities for the qualified engineers needed to go analyse the intensely technical submission documents for a new build.

      As for existing plants reaching end-of-life, that's debatable. Usually by the thirty-year mark a plant's non-core units are in train to be replaced, things like steam generators, main pumps etc. Almost all of the current US reactors have upgraded to digital control systems if they were originally built with anaogue controls back in the 1970s. The key irreplaceable parts of a reactor are the reactor vessel and its containment and since they were originally overspecified and overbuilt to an almost ludicrous degree and they have no moving parts in themselves they usually pass inspection with flying colours. It tends to be external factors that will downcheck a reactor -- safety systems, steam generators etc.

      If the NRC was to shut down older plants simply because they are old their capacity will be replaced with gas and coal, not nuclear because they're a lot less effort in terms of paperwork and currently they're about as cheap to run assuming no-one cares about the pollution they spew into the atmosphere 24/7.

    4. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by ChefInnocent · · Score: 4, Informative

      Although very limited, there are 4 new reactors being built. 2 at Vogtle, and 2 at VC Summer. It would be nice if we could move a little faster, but at least it is a start. There is also an older style one being built at Watts Bar.

    5. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 2

      A few extra decades of metal fatigue, what could go wrong ???

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    6. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 2

      If the engineers and safety ppl have top say in the matter it would likely be ok.

      The problem is the money men and bean counters often end up with top
      say and that doesn't end well as seen in other boondoggles.

      --
      google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    7. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      It will be interesting to see if once those new reactors are completed and on-line they can compete with renewable solar and wind energy.

    8. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by Void2258 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that nuclear power has accrued such a bad reputation. And this with comparatively few accidents. But 'nuclear' is such a huge bogeyman that it is virtually impossible to build any new plants now, regardless of advances in technology. No one wants to have one in their 'back yard' under any circumstances. Given the psychological climate, we are better off working to move on without nuclear energy.

      The current plants will stay operational indefinitely until there is an accident or there is simply a lack of ability to operate them. No new plants will be built. There was a brief window before Fukushima when public opinion was turning around, but after that accident, no amount of propaganda or new technology will be able to overcome the deep cultural fear of nuclear accidents.

    9. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could be the parent was confusing embrittlement from stray neutrons with metal fatigue.

      --
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    10. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by budgenator · · Score: 2

      Westinghouse's AP1000 has some new technologies and 4 of them are being built in the US. I'd like to see more work on modular reactors like NuSale's concept and thorium reactors.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    11. Re:Oh NRC... get your crap together by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      The key irreplaceable parts of a reactor are the reactor vessel and its containment and since they were originally overspecified and overbuilt to an almost ludicrous degree and they have no moving parts in themselves they usually pass inspection with flying colours.

      They won't last forever though, eventually neutron embrittlement will win.

  2. Training is allowed by jandrese · · Score: 2

    The proposed operating license changes would place no limit on the number of 20 year extensions, so perhaps a few reactors will end up in operation for a full century (if there's anyone left who can remember how to operate them then).

    You are allowed to train people how to operate machines even when the machine is old. I'm pretty sure people will still understand buttons and knobs even in a future where everything else is touchscreens and direct neural interfaces or whatever.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:Training is allowed by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know, my experience with older technology is you can often teach someone the high-level stuff, but when you get into the really low-level stuff there's invariably a zillion little things which come down to lore and things you've seen before and just know about them but which aren't written down.

      I have yet to see any sufficiently old system which is fully documented, actually matches what the documentation says, and doesn't have a bunch of little 'quirks' which prevent the new guy from ever truly understanding it beyond the basics.

      Not knowing that you need to jiggle the control rod 3 times and do a quarter turn to the left to operate it is likely the kind of thing which is going to end badly.

      Which is precisely why I've known mainframe programmers who retired, started collecting their pension, and then started getting 5x their salary in consulting fees to keep it running for their previous employer. Because, try as they might, you just can't find someone who really grasps the entire system.

      I can't tell you how many times in my professional career the answer to "why does this work like this?" has been followed up with "now that's a funny story" followed by a description of some bit of arcane knowledge which nobody else truly understands except the guy telling the story.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Training is allowed by OzPeter · · Score: 2

      Which is precisely why I've known mainframe programmers who retired, started collecting their pension, and then started getting 5x their salary in consulting fees to keep it running for their previous employer. Because, try as they might, you just can't find someone who really grasps the entire system.

      Totally unrelated anecdote, but sort of related to your mainframe programmers. I did an HMI change over job a few years ago where the system had been designed and built by one guy and was full of all sorts of non-standard ideas and gotcha's (my fav was the onscreen button that wrote straight to the PLCs I/O). He had this idea that he was going to retire and then come back and support the system on contract rates. But apparently he pissed off so many people that when he retired they were glad to see him go, regardless of the state of the HMI.

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    3. Re:Training is allowed by BUL2294 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that nuclear reactors are, by regulation, among the most-documented entities on earth. From functionality to maintenance logs to upgrades, nuclear plants & their owners are extreme documenters--to decrease liability and meet government regulation. You don't hear stories of nuclear reactors in places like the US, Canada, UK, Western Europe, etc., with "documentation problems" or knowledge transfer continuity. (Pay people to stay to do an easy job & they will...) Sure, a part schematic may be on paper as opposed to stored electronically, but they'll have multiple copies onsite, a few copies at the power utility offsite, and at the NRC or other national nuclear regulatory agency--and everyone who should know where those copies are, do know... And that documentation would be designed so that anyone with the requisite engineering knowledge & skills should be able to read it...

      Nuclear plants are not run like IT shops--and thank God for that...

      --
      Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
    4. Re:Training is allowed by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      You know, my experience with older technology is you can often teach someone the high-level stuff, but when you get into the really low-level stuff there's invariably a zillion little things which come down to lore and things you've seen before and just know about them but which aren't written down.

      A few days ago some posted a picture of my submarine shortly after launch to our re-union group's Facebook page. As a joke, I said everyone should post their age on that date. After I was challenged to be first (two days shy of two weeks after my second birthday for the record), a bunch of other guys chimed in... most of us were somewhere about that age as well. Even though the boat was over twenty years old by the time we all got there, we had no problems operating her and neither did the guys who took her to PSNS to be decommissioned and scrapped ten years later. In fact, all over the world, equipment decades old is working just fine. Your experience appears to be with older computers and programs. Programs aren't physical hardware, and apples and oranges doesn't even begin to convey the scope of the difference.
       

      Not knowing that you need to jiggle the control rod 3 times and do a quarter turn to the left to operate it is likely the kind of thing which is going to end badly.

      The world of physical hardware doesn't work that way. Doubly so for a nuclear reactor - if it doesn't work to spec, you fix it so that it does work to spec. You replace the control rod control switch, or adjust the shims on the drive, or whatever.
       

      I can't tell you how many times in my professional career the answer to "why does this work like this?" has been followed up with "now that's a funny story" followed by a description of some bit of arcane knowledge which nobody else truly understands except the guy telling the story.

      That's why the apocryphal line "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization" was written.

    5. Re:Training is allowed by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Documentation is one thing, having people around who really understand the design principals and most critically what to do in the event of an accident is quite another. The problems they had at Fukushima were made worse by the fact that the people on the ground didn't understand what was happening. Monitoring systems failed and they didn't appreciate the potentials risks and didn't do the necessary checks that might have prevented meltdown.

      Nuclear plants are complex. Mistakes have very serious consequences. Documentation alone is insufficient, you need extensive training programs and high wages to retain the skills you invest in, and at the moment that isn't happening.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:Training is allowed by sjames · · Score: 2

      And that's why instead of just handing the new recruit a pile of manuals and saying good luck, they have a system of seniority in place. As long as you keep hiring new guys to work alongside the old guys, that lore gets passed on.

      Unfortunately, it looks a little better on the quarterly report if you skip the new hires and kick the can down the road. Right up until the road ends in a cliff.

  3. Nuclear energy neglected by ignorance. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is really sad how the US cannot come with a good strong Nuclear Energy Policy and rules and regulations.

    Being that voters on both sides a full of complete ignorance that they just make it worse.

    The Democrats who support environmentalists (Scientists) and "environmentalists" (Tree Huggers) often get them confused and will be happy to believe that nuclear energy is like a controlled atomic bomb, thus must be decommissioned at all cost.

    The Republicans who are in bed with the Oil industry will sometimes tolerate nuclear energy, however do not have the guts to push for it as it will step on the Oil Industry.

    So what happens, we get regulations that are overly strict in the wrong areas and have gaping problems in the other.

    Is nuclear energy a Clean Safe and Too cheap to meter? No, not by a long shot. However we have a trade off of saving CO2 output (our current big problem) with Storing and keeping safe hazardous waste for a thousands of years (a future problem, which could get better over time). There are a lot of safety protocols in place and newer designs get safer, I doubt we will see a nuclear explosion, however accidents could create nuclear radiation leaked which are toxic, that said coal spews out a lot of toxic stuff already. These safety protocols comes at a cost, so yes you will still need to meter to pay for the upkeep and running. However it is a source of energy that can be produces without killing the budget.

    Nuclear along with Wind, Solar, Hydropower should all be added to the American clean energy strategies.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Nuclear energy neglected by ignorance. by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Nuclear beats hydrocarbons by a mile, and I'm not sad that Japan is restarting their reactors and the US is supporting plans for the first new nuclear power plant in over 30 years, all in just the last few days. I don't feel like I have any of the irrational bias against nuclear you are talking about.

      At the same time, I wonder if nuclear is enough cheaper than solar and wind to bother with? It is really hard to accurately value a huge investment that expected to last 80 years. What technological advances and political changes might happen in that time? 80 years ago it was 1934.

      Large-scale thermal plants can store energy to moderate the supply, and we would need a more integrated national grid give more flexibility. But it seems doable. I'll grant there would still be some cost premium, so it won't happen if left to the market alone, but then again markets don't care about global warming or the problems of long-term waste storage (even if that's really just a political problem). I really like the fact that wind and solar can simply be torn down and hauled away, or upgraded as need be.

    2. Re:Nuclear energy neglected by ignorance. by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      "The Republicans who are in bed with the Oil industry "
      ARRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!
      Oil does not compete with Nuclear, solar, or wind! It is less than 3% of the electrical power in the US!
      Natural gas yes, coal yes. Oil no! It drives me crazy every time I see people post about how we need to cut your importation of oil by building Solar, Wind, or Nuclear plants. We need to cut your consumption of coal by building Nuclear, Solar, and Wind!
      Fear of the Middle East seems to be the favorite tool of those that want manipulate people. It does not matter if it is the left or the right.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Nuclear energy neglected by ignorance. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Actually oil is interested in keeping cheap, clean energy down. They see the Tesla Model S and shit bricks. An all electric car that critics are saying is the best vehicle on the market. Any new electrical capacity is bad from their point of view, especially if it isn't coal or gas.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Nuclear energy neglected by ignorance. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      There is a very real danger that come the mid 2020s people building new nuclear plants will be looking pretty silly in the face of what Germany will have done. Maybe they won't, but it's a definite risk for investors.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  4. Re:"the aging reactor fleet" by rossdee · · Score: 2

    I thought they were already decommissioning the USS Enterprise (CVN65) which was the only ship in The Fleet that had really aging reactors.
    The Nimitz class had a newer design of reactor, which they only needed 2 of per ship.

  5. Re:"the aging reactor fleet" by Mike+Kirk · · Score: 4, Informative

    The company I work for is involved in the Nuclear Work Management industry: and companies owning a "fleet" of reactors is common terminology. "Legendary Slashdot commenting"? (after carefully avoiding Google :) )

  6. Re:"the aging reactor fleet" by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > You don't talk about a "fleet" of reactors unless you mean a nuclear-powered Navy

    Everyone calls it a fleet.

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/France/
    http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C-Cool-running-reactor-fleets-0801141.html
    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/China--Nuclear-Power/
    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-G-N/Japan/

    I like that righteous indignation you used while illustrating that you know absolutely zero about the topic you are pontificating on.

  7. Re:"the aging reactor fleet" by TWX · · Score: 3, Funny

    Would a gaggle or reactors work better?

    How about a murder of reactors?

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  8. Run to failure by mdsolar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Looks like they want the closing of a nuclear power plant to happen on the Fukushima model. Run them till they are overwhelmed by circumstance.

  9. unemployed operators by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 2

    if there's anyone left who can remember how to operate them then.

    Seven years ago I met a former chief operator for Connecticut Yankee nuclear plant no.2; he had just been let go from the governing body at Stanford responsible for setting curriculum for nuclear plant operators, due to cutbacks in (federal) funding.

    We speculated then that the U.S. would someday see the need for building new or updating existing nuclear power plants. So, what was obvious to us then, seems to be the future.

    And, yes, finding qualified engineers to run the plants will be very, very difficult.

  10. Idiots in power by EvolutionInAction · · Score: 2

    I used to really love nuclear power. I believed that a safe plant was simply a matter of good design and good regulatory structure.

    Then came the safety shutdown of the medical isotope reactor at Chalk River. "Good!" I thought. "The system works just like it should." The pressure started mounting because of the shortage. The safety commissioner refused to reopen the plant, and the pressure got worse. Then the government fired her and ordered the plant open again.

    Nuclear plants are great, until the time comes when closing them is just too expensive. Then the government changes from engineering them to be safe to legislating them to be safe. Because nature is bound to follow legislation /s

    1. Re:Idiots in power by inhuman_4 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Chalk River medical isotope issue was different though.

      Everyone agrees that the regulator did its job by shutting down the plant for not meeting the once in a million years safety ratio that is the standard. However the plant was not a power plant, it was a research plant producing medical isotopes. So issue wasn't whether the ractor met the standards, it didn't. The issue was the probability of people getting injured or dying from a plant malfunction was significantly less than the probability of people dying from not getting those medical isotopes.

      When presented with instructions to provide a temporary exception to the rule until other sources of the isotope could be brought online, the regulator said no. So things escalated until someone (parliament) had the authority to over rule the regulator.

      She was fired for not granting the exception, even though she knew what the balance of probabilities were. Basically she was power tripping.

    2. Re:Idiots in power by EvolutionInAction · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But they didn't! The damn plant had another safety shutdown because the reactor vessel was corroded to hell. I happened in 2009 and lasted over a year. Worldwide shortage of medical isotopes because *nobody had prepared for another shutdown.*

      And as a point of interest, according to the safety commissioner, the risk was pegged at 1 in 1000. Which is pretty damn far away from the one in a million standard.

  11. The NRC's job is safety by TroyHaskin · · Score: 5, Informative

    The NRC's job is safety. That's it. They have people stationed at power plants, and their only job is to ask questions and enforce policies such that the plant operates safely. With that beaten home, let's get to some specifics.

    The biggest concern for the current fleet of U.S. reactors (mostly all Generation II designs) in terms of long operation is embrittlement of the reactor pressure vessel (RPV) due to radiation damage (mostly neutronic). Embrittlement of the RPV comes into play when severe accident responses (for either Design Basis Accidents (DBAs) or Beyond Design Basis Accidents (BDBAs)) dictate fast, extreme cooling of the RPV that can lead to pressurized thermal shock (PTS) events. The biggest hurdle toward getting approval is proving which-and-every way to a high confidence level that a PTS breach of the RPV will not occur from this embrittlement. If plants cannot do this, the NRC will not issue a license extension because the plant cannot prove its safety. If you care to read more on it, consult 10 CFR 50.61 for details (or the whole thing at the10 CFR 50 Part Index.

    Are there other requirements? Yes (see the 10 CFR 50 index above). However, this is the one aspect I wanted to expound upon since turbomachinery has been replaced/upgrade, fuel is refreshed every 18 months or so, and piping is constantly checked. But I wanted to stress the safety issue. The NRC has 100% no qualms about telling a plant "no" if that plant cannot prove it is safe to operate.

    1. Re:The NRC's job is safety by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      The ongoing studies being done by the DOE are showing that embrittlement should not be a hurdle. The problem is that behavior curves had not been developed for 80 years of aging for the materials of concern. Ongoing experience plus R&D allows for extending those curves through proven methods. Still more work to do. Of course, if needed, simple annealing can take care of embrittlement. (simple in concept, quite a bit more challenging & costly to implement in the plant.). Cracking in welds can be easily seen via existing examination techniques, and repair methods already exist and have been used.

      Concrete is a bigger challenge. More work needs to be done on irradiated concrete aging. That work is in progress. By the time the first plants hit 60 years, that data will be solid and reliable for understanding longer term behavior. That work is important.

      Those are generic aging issues. Each individual plant could have specific issues of its own, like aged cabling, so the process of renewal must be thorough. Fortunately for the industry, great margins were designed into the plants to begin with, and many of the critical components can be replaced in part or in whole.

      What will likely play out is the some plants will retire at the end of their extended service period, just like any asset. Some of those might shut down a bit early if they have equipment problems that are too costly to repair for ongoing safe operation. Those that have the best performance will be likely candidates for another license renewal, which is typically 20 years. The utility industry is wary of becoming too dependent on gas. Extension of safe operating life of nuclear plants and/or new nuclear are the only viable options assuming coal is dying, or unless storage for wind power can be made economical.

  12. Re:Slashdot Users Expect Dice to Operate Beta Fore by sexconker · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yes it is.
    The message says "Buck Feta.".

  13. Re:Slashdot Users Expect Dice to Operate Beta Fore by Iniamyen · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why would you want to reject a cheese? This makes no sense.

  14. Re:Slashdot Users Expect Dice to Operate Beta Fore by vettemph · · Score: 2

    +1 would read comment again.

    where are my mod points.

    --
    The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.