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Google Funds San Francisco Bus Rides For Poor

theodp writes "The LA Times reports that Google will fund free bus passes for low- and middle-income kids in a move to quiet the controversy surrounding tech-driven gentrification in San Francisco. In a statement, Google said, 'San Francisco residents are rightly frustrated that we don't pay more to use city bus stops. So we'll continue to work with the city on these fees, and in the meantime will fund MUNI passes for low income students [an existing program] for the next two years.' SF Mayor Ed Lee said, 'I want to thank Google for this enormous gift to the SFMTA, and I look forward to continuing to work with this great San Francisco employer towards improving our City for everyone.' But not all were impressed. 'It's a last-minute PR move on their part, and they're trying to use youth unfairly to create a better brand image in the city,' said Erin McElroy of the SF Anti-Eviction Mapping Project."

362 comments

  1. I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The land of the Free.

    But not so free as to be able to pick up passengers while stopped on a public road.

    For that you need papers and baksheesh.

    1. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But the community had to pay for a bit of yellow paint to mark the bus-stop and a Festivus pole to fix a sign with 'Bus-Stop' on it.

      That 'investment' needs to generate money!

    2. Re:I don't get it. by mean+pun · · Score: 1, Troll

      Should this mythical land of the free allow you to run a bus service with vehicles that are a menace to its passengers or other road users? Without proper education of it's bus drivers? Without any insurance? Would you mind if this bus service cherry-picks the profitable routes, so that companies that try to offer more balanced public transport go bankrupt?

    3. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Absolutely not, companies should be required to do things that make no economic sense.

      We should also extend that to individuals, in order to promote more balanced dining establishments, you should be required to eat at places you don't want to eat at instead of just cherry picking where you eat.

    4. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's == "it is"

      Its == possessive form of the pronoun "it"

      You == fail, fail, FAIL what 2nd-graders are expected to understand

    5. Re:I don't get it. by hax4bux · · Score: 2

      I work in SF and I am not threatened by the Google Bus. How this was marked "insightful" is beyond me.

    6. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yikes!

    7. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only fat people eat on a regular basis. Those of us who are thin and popular subsist on celery stalks and vitamin water.

    8. Re:I don't get it. by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      But the community had to pay for a bit of yellow paint to mark the bus-stop and a Festivus pole to fix a sign with 'Bus-Stop' on it.

      Perhaps things differently in the US. In the UK cities, there is yellow (no parking) paint everywhere. The only difference at bus stops is that the pattern is different. As for the pole and sign, the bus companies themselves pay for that, naturally.

    9. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a single guy, I eat out on a regular basis, and am thin. The cost is acceptable to me because cooking for myself is a waste of my own time. It not where you eat that makes you fat, it's what and how much you eat.

    10. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I work

      Well, you already have your answer why you aren't threatened.

    11. Re:I don't get it. by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But the community had to pay for a bit of yellow paint to mark the bus-stop and a Festivus pole to fix a sign with 'Bus-Stop' on it. That 'investment' needs to generate money!

      This, so much this.

      Seriously, San Francisco - What the fuck? I don't understand why this even counts as an issue - Would it really help your budget that much if you could force Google and company to take public transit to work? Or more likely, would it just massively increase congestion on your roads and make the average SF'er bitch about those damned geeks driving up the cost of parking spaces?

      Like it or not, Silicon Valley didn't destroy SF, it made SF. You want to go back to the 1970s? Just move to Detroit today, and enjoy your cheap housing and everything that comes with it.

      The Google buses amount to nothing more than carpools, an environmentally friendly way to move a few thousand people from home to work and back every day. Just admit it, this has nothing to do with public transit, and everything to do with gentrification - Not a bad word, BTW, it just means making the slums safe for human habitation again.

    12. Re:I don't get it. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Absolutely not, companies should be required to do things that make no economic sense.

      I don't think anyone wants anyone to do that. Where do you see that?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    13. Re:I don't get it. by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      The Google shuttles are a net benefit to the city as a whole. But they are a symbol of much deeper, broader problems brought on by economic growth, increases in income inequality, and slow housing growth. Economic growth in the bay area has brought a tremendous influx of people, but various regulations have made it difficult to feed demand. This, combined with sharp increases in income inequality, has resulted in soaring housing prices. For a lot of residents, that means they're being forced out of their homes, sometimes their homes of many years.

      I would very much like to see the city change the laws so that Google pays for its use of public bus stops, and the city in turn uses that money to expand its public transportation system. It would furthermore be nice to see some action on the side of increasing incentives for building new housing.

    14. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Without proper education of it's bus drivers"

      All the bus drivers know the difference between "its" and "it's"

    15. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how is that idea (running a bus service) different from sharing a ride at extreme scale? Certainly better than if every tech worker would take their own car. Really, Google's approach is smart and they are not the villains they are portrayed to be.

    16. Re:I don't get it. by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      As opposed to food grown, raised, harvested, inspected, transported and sold by your closest family members? I eat out every day because I can afford it, my annual basic medical check up and blood test always come back 100% down the middle and my BP is 110/60. I'm 5'10" 175 and I'm over 40. You can't explain that.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    17. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking as a non-american.. you've never been land of the free, that's a big joke. If you were land of the free you'd be able to travel to cuba, give open source software to countries the current president doesn't like, and all the other bullshit you all put up with; my favourite one being that you're still taxed even if you're not living or making money in the US.. that's right even when you leave land of the free they're still fucking with you.

    18. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only fat people eat out on a regular basis.

      I know some very fit and thin people who eat out quite often.

      They eat at places which prepare food well and they choose what they
      eat carefully.

      Not everyone is poor, thin, and ignorant like you are.

    19. Re:I don't get it. by cduffy · · Score: 0, Troll

      [...] everything to do with gentrification - Not a bad word, BTW, it just means making the slums safe for human habitation again.

      So people who make less money than you are also less than human?

      If you can't appreciate why gentrification is a problem, I suggest that you're living in quite a bubble.

    20. Re:I don't get it. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Well, step in front on one. Then see how threatened you feel.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    21. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's exactly how the Google bus service started. Employees car pooling, then picking up a van to fit more people. Then a couple of vans, all employee run. Then Google asked their employees if they would scale up the car pool they had built and now we have Google busses. This was an employee driven venture to benefit employees and the environment. Removing the busses just puts them back in privately owned mini vans again.

    22. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So then the busses either stop and put more cars back on the road (the employees aren't going to just quit working after all and this does nothing to affect housing prices), or the busses just stop at not bus stops.

    23. Re:I don't get it. by sabri · · Score: 0

      I suggest that you're living in quite a bubble.

      The only one living in a bubble is this commie idiot named Erin McElroy. According to her own resume she has done nothing to contribute to society (sorry, I don't call "art" a meaningful contribution: "Grids and Birds and Such", my ass).

      I wonder if she gets up in the morning and pees acid instead of urine. Google spends their cash on helping those less fortunate and she's still not happy. If course not, in her Marxist views, making a profit is bad. Go back to Mother Russia, Erin.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    24. Re:I don't get it. by SJHillman · · Score: 1

      Just because people already live there doesn't mean it's safe for them to do so.

    25. Re:I don't get it. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      I would very much like to see the city change the laws so that Google pays for its use of public bus stops,

      Google is paying for its use of the public bus stops, after enough people complained. But I believe there's a statutory cap on how much they can be made to pay - the city can't arbitrarily make Google buy a puppy for every SF resident each time they use a Muni stop.

    26. Re:I don't get it. by floodo1 · · Score: 1

      Environmentally friendly is when Google employees don't live in SF and work in Mountain View a few dozen miles away. THAT is the core issue here.

      --
      I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
    27. Re: I don't get it. by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      Sorry trying address gentrification is akin to trying to treat the symptom without treating the cause. Poor people and middle class people are pissed that they don't have jobs. They don't have jobs because America's fiscal policy is nonexistent because of the GOP. The moment the government starts spending and/or taxing less, the sooner the negative aspects of gentrification become less problematic. Today the federal government is over-taxing and underspending. It is no wonder that on a microeconomic level this is translating to higher income inequality.

    28. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how does this alternative depend on Google? Must they only look for talent in Mountain View? Must they demand their employees move there? Must they rebuild Mountain View to make it attractive for their employees?

      You're thinking alternatives are only "Google shuttles employees from SF" and "Employees live in Mountain View", when more probable alternative in absence of that bus is "Employees drive to work in their own cars".

      Think about another environment friendly alternative - protesters could move to Mountain View and Google can build an office instead of one of vacated buildings. Would this alternative be absurd? Why? And would same logic apply to the one you propose, then?

    29. Re:I don't get it. by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      I will never understand how flowing money into an area is bad. Harlem used to be a shithole, now its a fairly nice neighborhood, roads are not crumbling no more, gangs are not killing people every other day.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    30. Re:I don't get it. by BigFire · · Score: 1

      They want their cut of the money. It's not about right or wrong. It's just about money.

    31. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One fucking dollar !

      Can *anyone* run a bus service using city bus stops for a dollar ?

      How about a shuttle van ? For one dollar ?

    32. Re:I don't get it. by cduffy · · Score: 2

      I will never understand how flowing money into an area is bad.

      Pricing people out of the homes and neighborhoods they're established in is disruptive. If your rents go up by 50% -- or you own, but your property taxes double -- that's a nontrivial personal hardship, particularly for folks who don't have wiggle room in their budgets to start with.

      I live in East Austin -- a historically poor neighborhood. Last time I got involved in community governance was interesting -- went to a meeting to discuss whether a developer should be given a license to redevelop a recycling plant into a condominium project.

      Half the people there -- including the faction I showed up with -- wanted to insist on mixed-use development with storefront space. The other group -- representing historical neighborhood residents -- wanted to ensure that low-income housing was included in the development. It wasn't feasible to accommodate both of us with the available funding; suffice to say that the debate process was informative.

    33. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the average american is an authoritarian christian retard. hope someone bombs this retard-infested shithole of a country and gives us a constitutional republic or something.

    34. Re:I don't get it. by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      making the slums safe for human habitation again.

      So people who make less money than you are also less than human?

      Uh, no - it means people who make significantly less money than me tend to live in unsafe places.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    35. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only fat people eat out on a regular basis.

      The pathetic thing is that you aren't trolling or joking. You really did say this very stupid thing in complete earnest.

    36. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they aren't, and no you don't.

    37. Re: I don't get it. by Cyberax · · Score: 2

      Actually, government needs to start spending _more_ and taxing (rich people) even more. That _will_ help the economy right now. As it is, government has been contracting for 6 years now.

    38. Re:I don't get it. by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Uh, no - it means people who make significantly less money than me tend to live in unsafe places.

      ...and when those places are "gentrified", the people in question are forced to move by rising rents, typically into another "unsafe" location but now with more transportation time/costs.

    39. Re:I don't get it. by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Which has what to do with your claim that the OP implied that poor people aren't human, exactly?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    40. Re:I don't get it. by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Gentrification typically displaces people who are previously reasonably happy living in a neighborhood "unfit for human habitation".

      If the prior residents considered it fit for themselves (or, at least, the best fit available given their means)... well, you tell me what conclusion I should draw.

    41. Re:I don't get it. by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      No, you re-wrote what the OP said. He didn't say "unfit for human habitation" he implied that they were living in a place unsafe for human habitation.

      That doesn't mean the occupants aren't human - it means that they're living a place that isn't safe. This is fairly basic English language comprehension.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    42. Re:I don't get it. by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      and everything to do with gentrification - Not a bad word, BTW, it just means making the slums safe for human habitation again.

      And why were they "unsafe for human habitation" in the first place? Because they were populated with poor people some of whom are low level criminals*.

      Consider yourself as an honest poor person (a janitor or whatever), you've lived in an area all your life, it's not the best area and crime is higher than you would like but you have friends there and you know how to avoid the thugs and so-on. Then rents start rising, the local criminals can no longer afford the rent but neither can you so you are forced to move to another poor area which is likely further from your job, where you don't know the local crime patterns and where you likely don't have any friends (it's unlikely everyone will be forced to move at exactly the same time and even if they are it's unlikely they will be able to move together). Oh and moving is always expensive and disruptive even when it's something you do for your own benefit.

      * Rich people can be criminals too but they tend to commit different sorts of crime.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    43. Re:I don't get it. by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      I guess I just look at property values going higer as a good thing, id love if the place I own sky rocketed and I could leave.new york, then again I dont have kids

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    44. Re:I don't get it. by cduffy · · Score: 1

      I understand the plain meaning of the words. I objected to their subtext. This, too, should be fairly straightforward English language comprehension.

    45. Re:I don't get it. by CycleMan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The difference is owning vs renting. If you own and prices double, you can cash out if you want to. If you rent and prices double, no soup for you. Maybe you pay the extra; maybe you move and take a longer commute and find a new daycare and relocate your kids to a new school and say goodbye to the neighbors you've gotten to know and love. It can be very disruptive to community and continuity, and I understand the concern.

      50 miles south of San Francisco, there are discussions about whether the owner of a mobile home community can decide to sell the land to a big housing developer. The senior citizens who live there know that if he is able to sell, they'll have to move out of the area because there are no affordable alternatives, and good luck taking your manufactured home with you.

      California adds an interesting wrinkle with its Prop 13, a 1979 law saying that housing values for tax purposes can only rise 2% each year if you don't sell your home and property tax is capped at ~1% of housing value, so property tax bills are pretty stable compared to other places. That law was partly to keep elderly from being pushed out of their homes by skyrocketing property taxes. However, properties are reassessed at market value upon sale, so if these folks have to move, their new home may carry a hefty tax increase without necessarily being any nicer of a place to live.

    46. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Would you mind if this bus service cherry-picks the profitable routes, so that companies that try to offer more balanced public transport go bankrupt?"

      There.

    47. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.
      You invented the subtext then forced it onto another while claiming it was insulting.

    48. Re: I don't get it. by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      Today the federal government is over-taxing and underspending.

      I'm not from the US but I believe that the US government is currently spending something like $1.00 for every $0.60 it earns in revenue. Income inequality in the US is not entirely the fault of politicians and CEO's, it is the unintended side-effect of a society that still believes they too can become obscenely rich through honest, hard work - if they could "just get a break".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    49. Re:I don't get it. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I objected to their subtext

      That's LordLucless's point, you perceived a subtext where there was none and then promptly put the words of the subtext (that only you perceive) into the author's mouth. It has nothing to do with comprehension and everything to do with your pre-existing (and firmly held) opinion on the subject. You appear to see only the negative impacts of gentrification, but like many social issues it is a double edged sword. Sure some people are permanently priced out of the area where they grew up but others find job/business opportunities that would not be possible in that area without the influx of cash required to rebuild a slum.

      Disclaimer: Yes I have experienced being homeless, in my early twenties I lived in a 4 man tent for 3 months with wife, baby, and dog in tow. The problem of inequity is not due to people living in nice towns, there is more than enough wealth in the US (and the world for that matter) for everyone to enjoy a reasonable living standard. The problem is a global society where it's considered normal to have the world's richest 500 people "earn" more than world's poorest 3,500,000,000 people in any given year. According to Red Cross figures, the combined income of these fortunate 500 is enough to end world poverty four times over. I have nothing personal against these people, I actually quite like some of them. However society has been overgenerous to them, we grow resentful of their wealth and power but do nothing about it because deep inside we all wish to be in their shoes "one day".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    50. Re:I don't get it. by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the odds are good that he would feel threatened for long.

      --
      Write failed: Broken pipe
    51. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      That is factually incorrect.

      Google didn't stop on a public road and pick up passengers, they stopped at San Francisco Municipal Transit Authority (SFMTA) stops, which are paid for by SFMTA, and are for the exclusive use of SFMTA riders, who contribute to the building and maintenance of those stops with the fares they pay on SFMTA vehicles.

      How would you like to go to your local bus stop for your morning commute and find a crowd of Google employees there, blocking your way? What if you needed one of the 2 or 3 seats that are at every stop because you have a mobility issue, and those seats were filled with Google employees? How would you like the garbage can at your bus stop to always be overflowing because the stop is now serving double the riders it was built for, and those extra riders are all Google employees? And how would you like it if one of the buses you take was shut down because of lack of funding when there are people at your bus stop all the time who are not paying and who are not taking the SFMTA?

      San Francisco is a very, very small city. (10 km by 10 km.) The SFMTA stops are very small and very cramped even without the Google employees. You can miss your bus because two arrive at the same time and you can't get over to the one you want to take because there is no room at the stop. How would you like to find out that you must missed your bus because you couldn't get past a bunch of Googlers who shouldn't even be at that stop? And who aren't even contributing to public transit by paying fares, and whose company pays about 6% per year in taxes?

      We have laws that are supposed to apply to everyone equally. It's not possible for 20 or 30 private companies to pull up their buses to SFMTA stops, therefore it is illegal for anyone to do so. That's the most basic law-making, and the most basic protection for equality. The fine for a commercial vehicle using these stops is almost $300 per incident. The SFMTA cops who give out $70 tickets to riders who don't pay their fares just ignored the Google buses. The SFMTA supervisors (who are also cops) just ignored the Google buses. Meanwhile, they gave out $300 fines to cab drivers who stopped at SFMTA stops, and to tour buses, and anyone who was driving for a small company. Google should have been fined and then stopped right away. Instead, Google racked up over $500 million in stops. Why? Turns out it was just simple Texas-style “the rich can do what the fuck they want.”

      > land of the Free

      You mean the freedom of the rich to be above the law? Because that's what you're promoting.

    52. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      And the community had to pay for the land for the stops, and the cleaning of the stops, and the garbage collection, and the signage, and the transit cops who patrol those stops, and the seating at those stops, and the accessibility studies and improvements made to those stops, and the studies that figured out how big the stop needs to be to serve only SFMTA vehicles.

      Just because something is a public sector company does not mean it is free for your taking. Google stole from SFMTA just as if they had setup Google stores inside a mall and didn't pay for the retail space.

      Public transit is very, very important in San Francisco because the city is too small for everyone to drive. One of the major symbols of the city are the cable cars, because cable cars and street cars are how most people get around. The idea that a private company has the right to squat on SFMTA stops is absurd. When they are a giant, hugely-profitable advertising company who pays 6% in taxes? Then you really piss people off.

      The defenses of Google here are absurd. There's no defense for stealing. Doesn't matter what it is. When you're rich and you steal, that is even worse. When you steal from the community, that is even worse.

      How would you like to be a garbage collector for SFMTA and you go out one day on your route to empty the garbage at SFMTA stops and suddenly there is twice as much garbage at every stop because now they are combination SFMTA/Google stops? You're not getting paid by Google, only by SFMTA, but now you have to pick up Google garbage also.

      How would you like to be an old lady who can't get a seat at her local street car stop anymore because Google 30-somethings are sitting in all the seats? She is paying for SFMTA with her taxes and by paying fares, and Google is paying nothing for the stops and barely pays any taxes at all.

    53. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i dunno about sf, but here... private vehicles CANNOT USE PUBLIC BUS STOPS because it is illegal for them to stop there, even to pick up or drop off a person (if you're doing that, you better be *legally* parked outside of the bus stop)... only the public busses (or bus stop maintenance vehicles) may stop, park or idle at a bus stop.

      if google wants to shuttle their employees around a vast metropolitan area, fine. they should build their own fucking network of park-and-rides on private property, and license/permit them, their vehicles and their drivers accordingly.

    54. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      5'10" @ 175 is overweight. You should be closer to 160 unless you're buff.

    55. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      > Seriously, San Francisco - What the fuck?

      So what you're saying is, the Google buses can just stop in front of your house.

      The Google employees can just show up one day, unannounced, and hang out on your lawn, sit on your fence, drop garbage on your property.

      You will be happy to clean up after them, repair damage to your property, because hey — Silicon Valley!

      Right? I mean, you're pretty quick to volunteer SFMTA property and maintenance to Google. You must be willing to give your own, right? Or are you a fucking hypocrite?

      When SFMTA was building stops for each streetcar or bus line, were they supposed to build them big enough for the SFMTA vehicles and riders, or were they supposed to build them big enough for any private company to also run buses through there? If you engage your brain for about a half a second, you can easily see it is impractical to open up SFMTA stops to all private vehicles. You can't have 10 people waiting for a Google bus, 10 for an Apple bus, 10 for an Oracle bus, 10 for an HP bus, and 10 for an SFMTA bus at a bus stop that only holds 15 people. That is why it is illegal for private companies to use the public bus stops. Because it's not possible for everyone to do it. So nobody can. It's not possible for the public transit system to build and maintain stops for private companies.

      Should SFMTA be forced to hire more transit cops and supervisors and garbage collectors and build more seating and shelters and expand every stop because Google wants to use the SFMTA infrastructure for free?

      > carpool

      You also can't carpool at an SFMTA stop. There is no room for that. There is barely enough room for SFMTA vehicles and riders. If you carpool, you have to stop someone other than the bus stops, because the buses are already stopping there. It is clearly marked. Google simply chose to ignore the law because they feel they are special.

      This is not fucking Texas. San Francisco is 10 km by 10 km, the entire city. Many bus stops already do not have enough room for just the SFMTA riders.

      > slums

      There are no slums in San Francisco. Gentrification is not the process of some kind of bad people that exist in your head being forced out, and some kind of good people that you approve of because Silicon Valley moving in. The people who are being forced out were born and raised there and worked to build the city all their lives. The people who are coming in are from elsewhere and they want to live in pretty San Francisco that the people they are forcing out built for them.

      It's almost funny that you think some tech worker coming in and taking an apartment from a hard-working family is something to celebrate. The irony is, one day, San Francisco will have another huge earthquake, and the tech workers will all die because they don't know how to take care of themselves without a ton of infrastructure and a ton of people propping them up, but all the people who could have saved their lives will be in Oakland and Berkeley and so on. The SF neighborhoods will have no resilience because they have no diversity. It'll just be a bunch of tech people complaining the 4G is down while they starve to death and get malaria.

      > Like it or not, Silicon Valley didn't destroy SF, it made SF

      That is not true. SF was a thriving city for generations when Silicon Valley was just an orchard. But even if it were true, why would that give Google the right to break the law?

      Are you saying there are 2 classes of citizen? One that gets fined for breaking SFMTA bylaws and one that doesn't? Are you saying that a firefighter who breaks an SFMTA bylaw should be fined but Google gets off? Because the firefighter doesn't contribute like Google does? Google, who pays 6% taxes? Or are you saying that the people who feed Google employees through farms, restaurants, and grocery stores are just low-class trash who should have to obey the law, but Google doesn't have to?

      I guess that is what you're saying.

      You're pretty much exactly the kind of sociopath that has given tech people such a bad name and lead to so much tension here in San Francisco.

    56. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      > Just because people already live there doesn't mean it's safe for them to do so.

      WTF are you even talking about?

      San Francisco is a very, very safe city.

      The people who are being forced out are not criminals, they are not living in slums. They are hard-working people with jobs and kids and ties to the community.

      You need to get out more. Your concept of the real world is not accurate. Your ignorance is pathetic.

    57. Re: I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      > Income inequality in the US is not entirely the fault of politicians and CEO's, it is the unintended side-effect of
      > a society that still believes they too can become obscenely rich through honest, hard work - if they could "just get a break".

      No, that is incorrect. That is absurd. That is blaming the victim. A victim who doesn't even have a way to see a doctor.

      The US has always lacked equality. There was slavery for generations after every other Western country gave it up. There was Jim Crow after that. There was the Drug War after that, which locks up poor marijuana smokers and cocaine users for decades while rich marijuana and cocaine users become President of the United States. The country was started by rich slavers and the laws are all written for the benefit of rich slavers.

      People in the US work really, really hard, and they don't even have health care. The country is filled with people who work 40 plus hours per week and can't afford to pay their rent and feed their kids. The work that people do to help their community (for example, picking vegetables to feed people, or working as a supermarket cashier to feed people) is totally disrespected, totally undervalued. The lack of a health care system is a genocide on anyone who is not rich. Firefighters who were injured on the job can't get health care. Cops have trouble feeding their families. Military are the biggest users of food stamps. Wal-Mart workers are the biggest privately-employed users of food stamps, even though Wal-Mart is outrageously profitable.

      Income equality in the US comes from all that anti-worker attitude plus the fact that worker productivity has soared over the past 30 years, but wages have remained stagnant. The benefit of all the productivity gains went only into profits, not into wages. And, taxes on the rich have fallen and fallen and fallen, even as the rich use most of the infrastructure such as cops, trucking lanes, air traffic controllers, subsidies, massive bailouts, and all the oil and other natural resources that they are exploiting.

      It's not possible for you to understand what life is like with no real public schools or public medicine. The people you are thinking are somehow waiting for a break that makes them rich got almost no real schooling, and in many cases not able to go to college even if they had the marks. And the majority have never had a medical checkup in their lives. Their vote may note even be counted, let alone, count for anything. Life is so much harder in the US than in other Western countries.

      So what I'm saying is that workers are powerless in the US. You can't blame them for income equality or any other problem in the US. The country is designed to be a hell-hole for workers and that benefits the rich who run the companies and own the politicians. The US politicians of the 1940's discovered that universal health care was necessary when they called up the country's young men for WW2 and only 75% could pass the physical, and that is why UK, Germany, and Japan have universal health care since WW2. But in the US, that was ignored for almost 100 years now, solely to commit a genocide on the poor. The US is designed this way. The people who are to blame are the people who benefit from it and refuse to reform it.

    58. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      Harlem was never a shithole. It is a fountain of culture that you would respect if you had any culture yourself.

      But even if you are right, why were the roads crumbling before and not now? Why was there a lack of policing before but not now? When has Manhattan ever been poor?

    59. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      You must make an awesome contribution to your community. Wishing you could cash out and leave.

      The people who are being displaced by income inequality are the ones who volunteer at an old folk's home, or restore a park, or who are raising the next generation of leaders and inventors and hard-working members of the community. Their wages have been frozen for 30 years even as their productivity soared. Their taxes have remained high even as rich people's taxes have plummeted. They have been suffering a kind of genocide as the United States is the only country that fails to live up to its responsibility to provide health care for all of its citizens, and instead has its doctors running an income-extraction con game.

      The problem is, you lack empathy. Either because there is something actually wrong in your head, or because you are too ignorant of the real world to have developed it.

      With 30 years of flat wages, 40,000 people dying unnecessarily and millions more suffering unnecessarily every year because of lack of access to health care, African-American kids being shot with impunity by cops and even private citizens, I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY HARD-WORKING FAMILIES BEING KICKED OUT OF THEIR HOMES IS A BAD THING.

    60. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 2

      The problem is not just that housing prices have gone up. The bigger problem is that wages have not gone up, even as worker productivity has soared. And taxes on the rich have gone down, even as they use more government services than ever. So the country is operating for the benefit of a very, very small number of citizens who just take for granted that they can have someone else's home if they want it, because that person is a wage slave who only has a 1980 level of income and can't defend themselves against 2014 accounting.

    61. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 2

      > Uh, no - it means people who make significantly less money than me tend to live in unsafe places.

      They are unsafe because of poor schools, poor policing, the wage freeze, and the drug war.

      When rich assholes want cocaine they go to the “bad” neighborhoods and start asking people to sell them cocaine. That creates a huge demand for cocaine dealers in that neighborhood. Then the cops show up and incarcerate the cocaine dealers, who later return to the neighborhood and the only job they can get at that point is cocaine dealer. The rich assholes are never incarcerated.

      And the rich assholes complain that their taxes are too high, so they get reduced and the schools in the “bad” neighborhoods get closed.

      Cops take the cue that the people in the “bad” neighborhoods have no political power and they terrorize them.

      The vast majority of the people in a “bad” neighborhood work hard all day at jobs that keep society functioning. They are health care workers and supermarket cashiers and factory workers and transit operators and teachers and military and so on. And their wages have been frozen for 30 to 40 years, even as the cost of everything went up. Even as rich people continued their private health care scam that causes health care to cost many times what it costs in other Western countries, even as we don't care for everyone.

      The fact that your solution to all this is to drive everyone out of that neighborhood and put in rich people who the cops will a) protect, and b) not incarcerate for drug offenses shows that yes, you believe people who aren't rich aren't human. You're happy with a society in which you have to be rich to be safe, and so fuck all of the people who aren't rich.

      The irony is that one day you will have a heart attack or be in a natural disaster and your life will be saved by someone from one of those “bad” neighborhoods that you didn't want to share tax money with, that you didn't care were being terrorized by police, that you didn't care were being terrorized by rich assholes who want to buy cocaine, that you didn't care had flat wages for the past 30 to 40 years, that you didn't care were being driven out of the neighborhoods where their families lived for generations in order to make yet another neighborhood for rich people.

      I sure hope you are not a Christian, because you're exactly the person that Jesus of Nazareth said wouldn't get into heaven.

    62. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      The idea that there was no subtext in the original comment is absurd.

      > You appear to see only the negative impacts of gentrification, but like many social issues it is a double edged sword.

      You are speaking in some kind of academic terms, but forgetting that we are not talking about rich displacing poor in some fair way. Wages haven been frozen for 2 generations while the cost of everything soared, even as worker productivity soared. Taxes on the rich have fallen through the floor even as they use more government services — the rich use more cops, more firefighters, more military, more trucking lanes, more air traffic controllers, more of everything the government does than the poor do. And there is a radical, artificial health care system in the US that is a genocide on anyone who is not rich, and is a moral obscenity according to every single religion in the world.

      So we are not talking about some natural gentrification, we are talking about a deliberate war on anyone who is not rich. Everyone who takes home a paycheck should be taking home at least double what they are taking home now, and the high taxes they pay should already include their basic health care and basic education. People who are rich right now are being artificially made richer and people who are not rich are being artificially made poorer.

      This article is about a giant corporation who pays 6% taxes riding atop the publicly-created Internet and deciding it can also use the public transit stops for its own bus fleet without even paying. The sense of entitlement is outrageous. And at the same time, there are working people who make less money than their grandparents and can't get in to see a doctor.

      So there may be some academic good side to gentrification in your mind, but there is no good side to genocide. There is no good side to robbing the poor and giving to the rich. There is no good side to having no equality. There is only massive human suffering and waste.

    63. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      You exposed the flaw in the environmentally friendly excuse that Google is hiding behind. But the core issue here the lack of equality in the US. The rich take what they want without paying, they break whatever laws they want without being arrested or fined, while the rest of us have our wages frozen for 40 years, get fined or arrested or shot by a cop at the drop of a hat, and now can't even get a fucking place to stand at a bus stop.

      During the time when SFMTA cops failed to fine Google buses for stopping at SFMTA stops, the SFMTA cops gave out $1 million in fines to regular, everyday people. Google ran up over $500 million in fines that they are not even being asked to pay. So they give some charity to make it gloss over. Nobody wanted charity. What we wanted was EQUALITY.

      There are people appealing their SFMTA fines and saying, “I used an SFMTA stop once and was fined $271, Google used them thousands of times and was fined nothing. So why should I pay?” The only answer to that is, “you are a second class citizen who must obey all laws and Google is a first class citizen who doesn't have to.”

    64. Re:I don't get it. by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Uh, no - it means people who make significantly less money than me tend to live in unsafe places.

      They are unsafe because of poor schools, poor policing, the wage freeze, and the drug war.

      Good, so you agree with me.

      When rich assholes...snip snip snip, rant rant rant....you're exactly the person that Jesus of Nazareth said wouldn't get into heaven.

      All I said was that saying "slums are not safe" does not imply "slum-dwellers are subhuman". All the rest was you projecting, and a mighty fine job you did of it, too.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    65. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      > * Rich people can be criminals too but they tend to commit different sorts of crime.

      No. Rich people commit all the same crimes as poor people. There are rich Harvard guys selling cocaine to other rich Harvard guys.

      What is different is that rich people don't get arrested nearly as much. Rich people don't get terrorized by cops. Cops who want to make their arrest quotas at the end of the month don't go into a rich neighborhood and frame a bunch of people — that is what poor neighborhoods are for. And if a rich person is arrested, there is a bunch of nodding and winking as their rich lawyer gets the rich judge to let them off easy.

    66. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      Nobody gives a shit if Google buses are a net benefit to the city as a whole. The issue is that they used SFMTA stops without permission, without payment, and in violation of the law. Then when the people of the city asked the government of the city why the fuck Google is allowed to do that even as all other companies and individuals who do that are fined, the city said, well, Google will pay something to charity? How is that? Not fucking good enough. We have equal protection under the law in this country. You can't fine me for doing something and not fine Google.

      If the Google buses are indeed a net benefit to the city as a whole, then they should be part of the public transit. They are no benefit to me if I live in SF and I work in Mountain View, but not for Google. In that case, they are just a bus that I'm not allowed to take. But they are not part of the public transit because Google doesn't pay its fair share of taxes, and neither do most Silicon Valley companies.

      Google can't have it both ways. They can't not pay taxes, not contribute to public transit, then run their own buses and say they have a right to use public transit infrastructure. And they can't skip out on the fines they owe and at the same time say they are doing good for the community.

    67. Re:I don't get it. by gig · · Score: 1

      Google owes $500 million in fines for the stops they made. It is $271 per incident. There are people paying that right now for doing what Google did. Only Google is getting a free pass.

      It's against the law to use SFMTA stops if you are not driving an SFMTA vehicle. Period. What you are thinking of as a cap is actually the fact that there is no legal way to enable a private company to pay for a pass that lets them be the only one to break a law.

      It would be impossible for SFMTA to support all the private transportation in the Bay Area stopping at its stops. That is why it is illegal to do so. There would be no room for SFMTA riders or buses if that were the case. We're supposed to have equality under the law. There is no defense for giving Google an exemption to be the only private company that can abuse SFMTA infrastructure.

    68. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general, I don't like calling people "entitled," but that's exactly what these SF fucknuts are being: spoiled little brats. And I don't mean the Google folk, I mean the people complaining about the Google folk.

    69. Re:I don't get it. by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      This is only the case if the bus stop has a red curb. Not all bus stops do. Do you have evidence that Google primarily (or even occasionally) stops its buses at stops with red curbs?

    70. Re:I don't get it. by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      They are a benefit to you, however, because they reduce the city's traffic (provided you use the city's roads).

      As for Google paying for the stops, Google is in support of that. It's not Google's fault the city is slow to act on the issue.

    71. Re:I don't get it. by godefroi · · Score: 1

      Won't someone please think of the old ladies?

      --
      Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
    72. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentrification is a positive thing. Detroit would gladly trade you your problems for theirs.

    73. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Google shuttles are a net benefit to the city as a whole. But they are a symbol of much deeper, broader problems brought on by economic growth, increases in income inequality, and slow housing growth. Economic growth in the bay area has brought a tremendous influx of people, but various regulations have made it difficult to feed demand. This, combined with sharp increases in income inequality, has resulted in soaring housing prices. For a lot of residents, that means they're being forced out of their homes, sometimes their homes of many years.

      I would very much like to see the city change the laws so that Google pays for its use of public bus stops, and the city in turn uses that money to expand its public transportation system. It would furthermore be nice to see some action on the side of increasing incentives for building new housing.

      This would be nothing compared to if Google just paid it's full corporate income tax.

    74. Re:I don't get it. by Meski · · Score: 1

      You'll cry if Google pack up and move to somewhere friendlier, too. Six percent of what google make is one hell of a lot of money for you to lose.

    75. Re:I don't get it. by Meski · · Score: 1

      No, they are humans that make less money than I do. You're the one constructing a straw man here.

    76. Re: I don't get it. by Meski · · Score: 1

      They need to tax middle income more. That's where most of the money is. If you taxed 100% of income of the 1% you still wouldn't have enough. Realise that when you say tax rich people more, you are including yourself in that. When you're quite happy saying "tax me more" then we can go forward.

    77. Re: I don't get it. by Meski · · Score: 1

      Why are Walmart so profitable? Because they have customers. The best way to make Walmart stakeholders listen to you would be to take that away from them.

    78. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would. Top 1% get about 30% of income and own something like one half of the total wealth.

    79. Re:I don't get it. by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1
      It's not the '70s anymore. People don't look like beanpoles. And at middle age, you pack on bulk if you like it or not, and my body type seems to be more muscular. People ask me if I work out but all I do is bike, kayak, walk. That's all. No weights. When I was 170 I was at my peak of biking. There wasn't too much fat to lose. We're not talking biking to the corner store either.

      In any case, if 5 pounds overweight and perfect check ups is the result of my "scorched plate" policy of eating whatever I feel like (I'm munching through some gruyere as I type), that's still pretty good, no?

      I might eat a few slices of cake and drown them with an espresso before going to bed.

      Did I mention I also never get headaches? And I'll probably lose the 5 pounds in spring when I start biking to work again. It's also entirely possible my legs are oversized for the rest of me since I don't have a car and walk a lot too. Oh and I skate.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    80. Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you honestly think that the year has anything to do with an individual's physical fitness? That's a whopper of an excuse if I've ever heard.

      I am right around your age, except at 6'5" I'm significantly taller than you and I have an athletic/muscular body type weighing 180lbs. You are overweight and simply in denial about it.

    81. Re:I don't get it. by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      "Do you honestly think that the year has anything to do with an individual's physical fitness?"

      I can't parse that sentence. The time of year? Yes, of course it does. I'm in Montreal. We have this thing called winter. If you think you're as active in winter as in summer in a Nordic climate, come on up and show me. It was -19 Celcius today. Even I don't bike in this cold. I could, but the salt and gravel is rough on my road bike. My hybrid got stolen. (Did I mention Montreal?)

      The year, as is my age? Of course it has something to do with my physical fitness. Are you insane?

      You are gangly and skinny and I am robust. Deal with it. Do you think I have a gut or something? And "around" my age? Hoo boy, have I got news for you, you're at the cusp of some dramatic changes in your body! Guaranteed. Keep in touch, let me know when you hit middle-age. You'll see.

      Here are is an overweight individual for you to complain about:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

      I get the feeling you are trumpeting the BMI as some sort measure of individual physical fitness. BMI is a demographic tool. It has little to do with individuals. I suspect my legs are far heavier in proportion to my frame than you'd expect. It's one of the reasons I don't like swimming, my legs always sink, you see, muscle and bone don't float.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    82. Re: I don't get it. by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      They need to tax middle income more. That's where most of the money is. If you taxed 100% of income of the 1% you still wouldn't have enough. Realise that when you say tax rich people more, you are including yourself in that. When you're quite happy saying "tax me more" then we can go forward.

      I wish more people understood the fact that while state and local governments are "revenue constrained," the federal government has no such constraint. The only fiscal priority the US should have at this point is to end the recession and recover. The federal government does not need to balance its books, and it does not have a long term solvency problem. The federal government can spend whatever it wants as long as inflation is stays within normal boundaries. Federal Tax policy and fiscal spending is the mechanism by which inflation can be increased or decreased. Today mainstreet needs more money. Payroll taxes is the first simple thing the government can do to boost the economy out of recession. There are absolutely zero downsides from doing this. While recovery takes places, inequality can be addressed with tax reform.

      I'm saying this on a tech website because while most people who read this will think i'm crazy, I have faith that enough of you are open minded to actually understand the truth of how the US monetary system actually works.

    83. Re: I don't get it. by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      Payroll taxes is the first simple thing the government can do to boost the economy out of recession.

      I'm meant to say "eliminating payroll taxes"

    84. Re: I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't say why that posters opinions are worthless, making your post worthless.

    85. Re:I don't get it. by denobug · · Score: 1

      The State of Texas will gladly accept Google's proposal to build their next headquarter. We have plenty of land in West Texas in the deserts!!!!

      Oh, wait, most people working for Google DON'T WANT TO MOVE TO TEXAS. It is probably a symbol of barbarianism with cowboys and horse wagons with no freeways and tall buildings. I guess the tax incentive won't convince them to move for a variety of reasons. Don't think the 6 percent tax is really that bad for them...

    86. Re:I don't get it. by Meski · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that 6% is a good deal for Google, but its a lot for a state to lose. I'm fairly sure Texas has a lot of freeways and tall buildings. Dallas comes to mind (both the city and the soap - yes, I'm that old)

  2. Do away with the commute by invictusvoyd · · Score: 1

    Now that google is laying high speed fibre networks, why not let the employees telecommute over their Gbps links ? That solves the problem of them crowding public transport and the etc .

    ________________________________________
    Have you exchanged ..a walk on part in the war .. for a lead role in a cage ..

    1. Re:Do away with the commute by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even when given the choice to telecommute, I often choose not to. I often find its much easier to get work done face to face, that and when you're in an actual work environment (or at least, aren't at home) there are fewer distractions.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    2. Re:Do away with the commute by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Same here, I think we let work encroach into personal life enough as it is. Home is home, I want nothing to do with work at home.

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    3. Re:Do away with the commute by kevingolding2001 · · Score: 0

      I often find its much easier to get work done face to face

      You're not a programmer.

    4. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even when given the choice to telecommute, I often choose not to. I often find its much easier to get work done face to face, that and when you're in an actual work environment (or at least, aren't at home) there are fewer distractions.

      How much did you get paid for saying that???

    5. Re:Do away with the commute by invictusvoyd · · Score: 2

      The tech stuff is better done via electronic communication rather than bringing our "human" personalities in the way . To think of it , the entire outsourcing industry "telecommutes" ..

    6. Re:Do away with the commute by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      And we all know how well outsourcing works out for everyone.....

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Do away with the commute by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      I often find its much easier to get work done face to face

      I often find it is much easier to get work done cheek to cheek

      . . . but that depends on the meaning of the word "work", in in the Clintonian sense of what the meaning of the word "is" is . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    8. Re:Do away with the commute by mellon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am a programmer, and I find working with other programmers nearby to be very valuable. Having randoms wander into the office is not so good, but there's a good synergy to over-the-cube-wall conversation when you are coding in a team. Having worked from home for the past decade, this is the primary thing that I miss. The commute, not so much... :)

    9. Re:Do away with the commute by mellon · · Score: 1

      Hm, brings new meaning to the term "pair programming."

    10. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fewer distractions.

      Try getting work done when your idiot coworkers are blasting conservative talk radio all day long. "We'll put a boot up your ass, that's the American way!"

    11. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Home is home - it would be nice to spend some of ones waking life *at* home - after all, often the reason to work in the first place is to *buy* a home.

    12. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Work from home? But but but but but but... who's gonna disturb you every eight seconds with anecdotes?

      Captcha: slacking

    13. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. I'm pretty much a telecommuting master, as are the people I choose to work with on a daily basis. We get more done and build start-ups which end up selling for millions from the comfort of our home offices. Just because YOU haven't figured out how to work from home without distraction or proper collaboration doesn't mean many others haven't.

      Working with all sorts of people, even those in remote places in the world, is something I always will love. I for one will never move to California, even though I do fly in for a couple weeks now and again due to the idiotic gun/hunting laws. I prefer living in suburban/rural areas where I can enjoy life without the distraction of city idiots.

    14. Re:Do away with the commute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We get more done and build start-ups which end up selling for millions from the comfort of our home offices.

      Yeah, who in VC business doesn't know A. Coward and his disruptive start-ups!

    15. Re:Do away with the commute by Bengie · · Score: 1

      You find working with others nearby to be very valuable because you rely upon them to do your work for you, don't you? You're not a real programmer, you're a goddamn leech. Real programmers need not synergy nor companionship beyond that which the machine provides.

      A recent study shows that trolls have a very high rate for mental illness. You may want to get that checked.

    16. Re:Do away with the commute by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      You actually get a choice? Your response kills it fo those of us who do enjoy working at home. Fewer distractions, then in an office? You must work in a monastery.

      There will come a time when from an energy stand point, telecommuting or work at home will be the preferred way to save energy. That we ahve the technology today to do this is a reflection of the 19/20th century mentality of middle/upper management. Try this next time, say "I love telecommuting" and when it is offered then and only then say no thanks. If they insist then please please just say yes.

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    17. Re:Do away with the commute by mellon · · Score: 1

      That's what slashdot is for.

    18. Re:Do away with the commute by Ronin+Developer · · Score: 1

      People in our office respect the privacy of others. But, when collaboration is needed, having the people there makes all the difference - either for a quick discussion or to setup a conference room (so, as not to disturb others who are also working).

      Besides, it keeps me from going nuts working out of my home office all day without seeing or speaking to another soul - humans are meant to be social creatures.

      It's going to snow again tonight....I miss the office already...sigh.

    19. Re:Do away with the commute by hawguy · · Score: 1

      Even when given the choice to telecommute, I often choose not to. I often find its much easier to get work done face to face, that and when you're in an actual work environment (or at least, aren't at home) there are fewer distractions.

      Most of Google's employees in the area can already get 50mbit or 100mbit internet from Comcast, I don't think gigabit is going to make them much more effective as home workers.

      For years, widespread telecommuting has always been just around the corner, "if only we had (faster computers, high quality webcams, faster internet, younger managers, etc)" But if even Google and their limitless technology resources still find worthwhile to have a San Francisco satellite office and ship workers 40 miles from SF to Mountain View, then maybe the limitations of telecommuting are not technical.

    20. Re:Do away with the commute by hawguy · · Score: 2

      I often find its much easier to get work done face to face

      You're not a programmer.

      Of course not, the programmers have been outsourced to India and other cheaper counties. It's the developers that are still coming to the office to collaborate with others in the company design and build software solutions (perhaps farming out some of the programming to offshore workers). If your job can best be done without face-to-face contact with others in the office, then it may as well be offshored someplace cheaper.

    21. Re:Do away with the commute by hawguy · · Score: 1

      >Working with all sorts of people, even those in remote places in the world, is something I always will love. I for one will never move to California, even though I do fly in for a couple weeks now and again due to the idiotic gun/hunting laws. I prefer living in suburban/rural areas where I can enjoy life without the distraction of city idiots.

      You must be the only person that actually travels to California for the gun/hunting laws. You're a good argument that California gun laws make it a better place for living.

    22. Re:Do away with the commute by tepples · · Score: 1

      If your job can best be done without face-to-face contact with others in the office, then it may as well be offshored someplace cheaper.

      Agreed, provided that "cheaper" includes the cost of handling time zone barriers, language barriers, and the loss of the possibility of even occasional face-to-face contact.

    23. Re:Do away with the commute by bjwest · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. You don't like telecommuting, and want nothing to do with it, so it shouldn't be an option for anyone.

      Wait, I have a simpler solution. If you don't want to telecommute, don't take a job that requires you to telecommute.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    24. Re:Do away with the commute by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      I think it was wording badly but im pretty sure he meant he would not live there due to the idiotic gun laws. and I dont blame him

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    25. Re:Do away with the commute by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen many workplaces where it's possible to respect the privacy of others, because they insist on building open-plan work areas, or cubicles with extremely low walls so everyone can see everything you're doing, whether you're taking a quick break to look at Slashdot or you're picking your nose.

      Yes, it is a little maddening not having anyone to talk to all day, but it's even more maddening working in a bullpen or open-plan work area (aka the Panopticon) and having zero privacy. I'll take the telecommute, thanks. At least then I don't have to waste so much time (and risk my life) in traffic every day.

    26. Re:Do away with the commute by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      He's making pro-gun people look like morons who can't write decent English.

    27. Re:Do away with the commute by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Or probably just an editing mistake.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
  3. SF Gentry opposes Gentrification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Busing in "youths" sounds like a great way to keep property values down.

    1. Re:SF Gentry opposes Gentrification by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Definitely. The Google busses should be permitted, but required to be common carriers since they utilize common resources. Force them to carry whatever urban riff-raff want a free ride out to Mountain View. I'm sure there are urban youths who could make it a profitable venture to head out there.

    2. Re:SF Gentry opposes Gentrification by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So if you have a private car and live in the Bay Area, should you also be required to carry whatever urban riff-raff want a ride to wherever you're going?

  4. "Unfair"? by physicsphairy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'It's a last-minute PR move on their part, and they're trying to use youth unfairly to create a better brand image in the city,' said Erin McElroy of the SF Anti-Eviction Mapping Project."

    This truly bothers me. This guy is like the members of MADD who are upset with ride programs because it means people won't get caught for DUI. Or those who are gleeful when civlians die in a way that proves their point.

    When it comes to something like donating money to help poor kids, I don't care who is doing it or why. I care that the kids are being helped. It's obvious who views them as political pawns when one person feels it's "unfair" that they are receiving financial assistance because it doesn't play into his picture of the world. I'll bet Mr. Erin McElroy donates exactly $0 to help these kids out.

    1. Re:"Unfair"? by x_IamSpartacus_x · · Score: 5, Informative

      It bothers me too. In my opinion it's part of a subtle temptation and accidental attitude that is very common in humanitarian/NGO/missionary work.

      Let me explain.

      I am a missionary working in Sub-Saharan Africa trying to fill a hole in the medical care here. In a developing country there are expected and predictable shortcomings in the medical system and I find myself trying to help cancer patients where the State cannot. Now, the tempting mindset is to hope that the State never actually develops enough to do what I do, thus, I never find myself redundant and always feel needed and like I’m filling a purpose. That is, of course, a horrible thing to hope. Of course I hope my service is redundant soon and of course I hope that what I do won’t be needed soon. That would mean fewer people were suffering! That would be great! It would also mean I’m no longer needed and I could find myself and my family in some trouble looking for a new place to serve.

      The “I hope the problem never goes away so I never find my cause pointless” mindset is what is likely going on here. Erin McElroy of the SF Anti-Eviction Mapping Project likely dedicates her (his?) entire life or, at minimum, most of his (her?) emotional energy on this project and so any progress Google and others make to help things get better means Erin is more and more redundant and less and less needed. That is a scary thing for someone who lives for a cause and therefore, while fighting for their cause, there is often a self-defeating hope that the cause never actually succeeds.

      That’s just what I’ve noticed in the “I have a cause” field at least. YMMV.

    2. Re:"Unfair"? by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

      The mindset you describe, self-preservation, is the reason that we never actually want to solve problems, win wars, cure diseases, or actually fix anything.

      There is too much money to be made fighting wars, so we don't try to win them. There is too much money to be made treating cancer symptoms, so we don't try to cure it meaningfully. There is too much money to be made lobbying against polluted air, so we lobby for half-assed solutions that don't work. There is too much money to be made fighting the "war on drugs," so we make no effort to eradicate drugs. There is too much money to be made fighting crime, so we make no meaningful effort to reduce crime. Police departments love federal paramilitarization dollars.

      It's all personal greed and self-preservation.

    3. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In fact, it's even better if our 'solution' subtly causes the problem it nominally solves.

    4. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's better to cause another problem in a cycle of problems. Crop rotation keeps the nutrients fresh.

    5. Re:"Unfair"? by rmstar · · Score: 0

      When it comes to something like donating money to help poor kids, I don't care who is doing it or why.

      This is myopic at best. Part of the reason corporations get away with so much is that there exist people who are happy to let them off the hook as soon as they spend a little on charity.

      The issue is that by giving a little to poor kids, this behemoth of a company can get away with the continuing destruction of the neighborhoods where there is affordable housing. It really is a PR move that does not solve any problems on a medium to long timescale. It is important to understand that charity is the sort of thing that just perpetrates problems and is only good as a stopgap. It would be much better if things could be aranged in such a way that charity wasn't necessary.

    6. Re:"Unfair"? by indeterminator · · Score: 3, Insightful

      can get away with the continuing destruction of the neighborhoods where there is affordable housing

      If a bus line "destroys the neighborhood", you have bigger problems than the bus line.

    7. Re:"Unfair"? by Zeio · · Score: 1

      The poor dont need free bus rides to shuttle them from hours away to get to a wage slave job serving the modern patrician. If this was sim city, or an ancient Rome city, the slaves were properly called such (just as we wage slaves are today) and the rich had a place for them to live close by. A heck of a lot better than driving 4 hours a day to slave away for money thats being constantly inflated to prevent people from climbing up and out.

      Google is the best brightest and smartest most driven people who day in an day out figure out how to shovel ads in our faces.

      --
      Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
    8. Re:"Unfair"? by k8to · · Score: 1

      It's not a "bus line". It's a point to point service that causes parts of SF to become artificially more desirable to Google employees than they would be otherwise, whose wealth is propped up by Wall Street investment patterns.

      This causes those particular neighborhoods to have housing costs move out-of-reach of median incomes.

      Whether or not you see this as unjust is a matter of debate, but it's not equivalent to a city bus route, which is a resource for everyone.

      The taste would be far more palatable if the Google workers were working in SF, and thus Google was paying taxes on the work of these employees in SF. That would bring proportional funds into the city to cover infrastructure costs. Unfortunately, Google can pay lower office costs in the south bay because of the sprawl pattern.

      --
      -josh
    9. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting perspective, and I don't doubt it happens too frequently.

      But I suspect that's not what's happening in this case. McElroy's group (Anti-Eviction) is trying to organize what is essentially a union, with the goal of collective resistance to a landlords' right to evict non-paying tenants. In order for their organization to exist they need people who feel victimized. Google employees are the enemy because they can afford to buy, or at least pay their rent.

    10. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Methinks the whiney assholes complaining about Google buses and all sorts of stuff are the ones who made their own neighbourhoods cesspools of hate and decay.

      It's a frigging bus service. I have yet to see hard evidence that it causes more problems than it solves.

      What do they want - Google employees to take cars? Or for them to clog up existing public buses[1] to get to work? Google packing up and moving to some other city? The Google buses may slow down other vehicles (including buses), but if the Google employees used cars or public buses they'd slow the buses down too! So unless the Google bus drivers are really terrible they aren't really causing more problems.

      Hey Google why don't you tell SF to fuck off and set up elsewhere? Like in my country for instance?

      [1] I suspect the public buses are subsidized - so Google employees using more of it doesn't help the $$$ situation.

    11. Re:"Unfair"? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      There is too much money to be made treating cancer symptoms, so we don't try to cure it meaningfully.

      And yet...

      My cancer was cured September 2012. Bone Marrow Transplant. Worked like a charm (aside from the "almost killed me" part - was very rough for a while after the transplant).

      Problem is that there isn't an easy way to cure "cancer", since it is actually a myriad of different problems covered by a single word. Some cancers they can cure, some are pretty much impossible to cure, most they are still working on developing cures, and doing as much "treating" (mitigation of effects) as is practical in the meantime.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    12. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, a variation of Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

      Pournelle's [paraphrased] Iron Law of Humanitarian Orginizations states that in any Humanitarian Orginization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work to further the organization itself.

    13. Re:"Unfair"? by indeterminator · · Score: 1

      The Google workers who live in SF still pay their taxes in SF, right? I bet they also use local services quite a bit. Property price increase should be welcome to those currently living there, it's much better for them, and the economy as a whole, than prices going down. I admit that I don't fully understand the dynamics of the situation (I don't live in the U.S.), but most places would welcome wealthy neighbors.

      If a point-to-point service makes an area so much more desirable, then maybe it was under-valued in the first place. I can't imagine the place being a slum, and then suddenly all googlers want to move there, because free commute.

      There is a bigger problem behind all this: unequal wealth and/or income distribution. Fighting a point-to-point private commuting service is not going to fix that.

    14. Re:"Unfair"? by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      The problem as I understand it is that when prices go up, so do property taxes, and that people on low incomes get forced out of the area.

    15. Re: "Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Googleplex will be 3 million. Square feet - that is about 3 more Transbay Towers.

      How easy would it be to build 3 more Transbay Towers in SF?

    16. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's OK to get people evicted from their homes because Google buys them bus tickets? I'm not in any way opposed to Google paying for bus tickets, but I am against them enabling the behavior that gets people evicted from their neighborhoods.

      Remember, companies like Google are making people rich and then giving them incentives to move into areas without enough housing.

      dom

    17. Re:"Unfair"? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Now, the tempting mindset is to hope that the State never actually develops enough to do what I do, thus, I never find myself redundant and always feel needed and like I'm filling a purpose.

      Never fear, the State will never actually be able to replace you (or anyone else with a useful skill). The State's area of expertise is bureaucracy, not medicine. The development of a State medical program will only mean that instead of people like you freely donating your medical services to those in need, they will be compelled to pay into a fund to provide their own medical services—which they still can't really afford, so something else will have to go, something they considered more valuable. The State doesn't provide anything; it just undermines people's priorities and substitutes its own. In this case, a propensity for medical care, whatever the cost may be to those ostensibly being cared for.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    18. Re:"Unfair"? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      If that's the real problem then don't complain about the prices, complain about the property taxes. Tax rates are well within the city's control. They are under no obligation to collect more taxes no matter how much the prices happen to increase.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    19. Re:"Unfair"? by kumanopuusan · · Score: 1

      The actual solution to unfair property taxes is to adjust property taxes.

      --
      Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
    20. Re:"Unfair"? by CycleMan · · Score: 1

      It's not a "bus line". It's a point to point service that causes parts of SF to become artificially more desirable to Google employees than they would be otherwise, whose wealth is propped up by Wall Street investment patterns.

      This causes those particular neighborhoods to have housing costs move out-of-reach of median incomes.

      I disagree with your use of the word "artificially" as every human construction can be called artifice. There exists sufficient mass transit in SF that SF Googlers can take MUNI to the Google bus stop from wherever they live in the city. The bus didn't cause all the Googlers to move to SF and take over the neighborhood; the Googlers were already living there and driving / carpooling / vanpooling to Mountain View in some number of vehicles that exceeded the number of buses now on the road. Every driver should be cheering. Yes, the bus means that some Googlers will decide to move to SF. No, you can't always have everything you want, not as long as others have the freedom to do what they want. Change happens. It's time for cooler heads to prevail, and for the neighbors to get to know the Googlers, invite them to integrate as a part of the awesome San Francisco community, tutor some inner-city kids, encourage them to use their 20% toward solving some local challenges, and embrace the future. Because San Francisco used to be so good at that.

    21. Re:"Unfair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google is located in MTV today because it's always been located in MTV. And I'm pretty sure the original reason for being in MTV rather than SF had more to do with proximity to Stanford than money.

      Also, there *is* a Google SF office.

  5. A severe distortion is here by drolli · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What would be unfair would be to continue to continue the division of rich, clean suburbs far outside the city, only ot be reached by environmentally unfriendly and space/road-wasting cars, and create infrastructure for the upper middle class there - and allow them to avoid contact with the less fortunate.

    To find efficient solutions (aka Busses) to transport workers in the city and thus mix income in parts of the city and even help other parts of the population to choose a efficient way of transportation and help in reducing the traffic is *not* unfair. If at all, it may be considered communist.

    1. Re:A severe distortion is here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and allow them to avoid contact with the less fortunate.

      Tell ya what. Convince the "less fortunate" (most of whom made bad decisions like getting knocked up) to be less violent, to act like they have the slightest bit of class, to really hate stealing, and generally to value leaving other people alone, and us terrible horrible people who don't want to associate with them will change our minds.

      Till then, you can keep on demonizing anyone who doesn't want to be mugged that day.

    2. Re:A severe distortion is here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Convince the "less fortunate" (most of whom made bad decisions like getting knocked up

      Convince your generation that pregnancy is a bad decision, and your generation will be the last generation, ever.

      CAPTCHA: prosper. What you won't be doing without progeny.

    3. Re:A severe distortion is here by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing several points here.

      First off, the most environmentally sound solution would be for these tech workers to live in the suburbs to begin with. The jobs themselves are in the suburbs, and the workers are commuting from the city to the suburbs simply because it's hip and trendy to (be able to afford to) live in San Francisco proper.

      Worse yet, this ends up putting more cars on the road, not fewer, because the people who do work in the city can't afford to live there. They are the ones who have to commute from the suburbs to the city. The clerk at the trendy organic grocery store or the bartender at the hipster bar, the stuff that gives "living in the city" its pricey allure, are faced with impossible rents or stiff commutes, and you can be sure as hell it's not their employers paying for a private coach to collect them from the sticks.

    4. Re:A severe distortion is here by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      First off, the most environmentally sound solution would be for these tech workers to live in the suburbs to begin with. The jobs themselves are in the suburbs, and the workers are commuting from the city to the suburbs simply because it's hip and trendy to (be able to afford to) live in San Francisco proper.

      And because the suburbs artificially restrict the housing supply (just as SF does, to be fair). As someone who lives near both Silicon Valley and SF, I'd much rather live in the latter myself if the rent wasn't hopelessly out of reach. It has nothing to do with being hip or trendy, because I will never be anything other than a hopeless dork; I simply like the city better.

    5. Re:A severe distortion is here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Till then, you can keep on demonizing anyone who doesn't want to be mugged that day.

      Strawman arguments are lies.

    6. Re:A severe distortion is here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then its harder for a bar to find staff; so they raise bar staff wages to account for it.

      If the bar staff keep taking less cash for a worse commute / higher rent then they only have themselves to blame.

      if costs of living rise, ask for a pay rise or move.

    7. Re:A severe distortion is here by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      But then its harder for a bar to find staff

      Not in this economy.

    8. Re:A severe distortion is here by drolli · · Score: 1

      As strange as it may seem, Megacities are the most resource-friendly way to live. Unless you are fortunate enough that you and your wife work at the same employer for you whole life, and schools for your children during all their school years are accidentally in the same suburb (pretty unlikely), and all shops happen to be directly in front of your door (that would be in the city), one or more family members will be commuting, and additionally you will go 10 Miles on the highway even for buying a small pack of milk. I always try to live at a place where i dont need a car (even to go to work) or, at worst, only need a car for going to the work/doing shopping and do everything else by foot/bike/subway/train/bus.

  6. Huh? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How does Google employees waiting at bus stops cost the city money? Where's this loss coming from that Google must compensate for? Or is this just knee-jerk hostility from the usual suspects?

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Huh? by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They should just have the employees picked up from privately owned locations whenever possible. I'm sure malls and stuff would like the extra foot traffic especially from Google employees who would probably have a little disposable income.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Huh? by hax4bux · · Score: 1

      There should be a Google helicopter. Should cure everything.

    3. Re:Huh? by rasmusbr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How does Google employees waiting at bus stops cost the city money? Where's this loss coming from that Google must compensate for? Or is this just knee-jerk hostility from the usual suspects?

      Well, it is probably not a coincidence that gentrification became an official problem about when it got to where white middle class people began to get priced out of inner city neighborhoods.

    4. Re:Huh? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Considering this is the US, the nearest malls are likely more than some 300 m (oh sorry, that'd be 900 ft for you guys) from the employee's home, and that means they'd need their car just to get to the bus stop, making the whole exercise moot. Besides I don't think those shopping malls like to have their car parks used as P+R.

    5. Re:Huh? by pauljlucas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How does Google employees waiting at bus stops cost the city money?

      On the one hand, they generally don't cost the city money; but it does give tech shuttles a free pass at using city bus stops that, if you or I stopped at (and were caught), we'd have to pay a fine.

      On the other hand, they do cost the city money in that that can (and do) delay the actual city busses from stopping at the stops and, as the adage goes, time is money. (The slower a bus goes, the more potential overtime the city will have to pay and the more busses the city will need to use for a given route to maintain the same headway.)

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    6. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ignorance is overwhelming. 300 meters is not the same as 900 feet. We don't measure those types of distances in feet. The distance you state is considered quite short. Most people are lucky if they live that far away from a main road. Finally, 'shopping malls' like having carpools and bus stops on the outskirts of the parking lot as it creates a pseudo captive audience. Would you, once dropped off at a grocery store parking lot to get into your car then go drive elsewhere to buy whatever is needed? Of course not. Now please go take your condescending nationalist bigotry elsewhere.

    7. Re:Huh? by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      but it does give tech shuttles a free pass at using city bus stops that, if you or I stopped at (and were caught), we'd have to pay a fine.

      Google using a community resource in this way has the side effect of making it convenient for Googlers who would otherwise choose not to live in the city. That bolsters its tax base while contributing to a reduction of traffic and vehicle emissions during the daily rush hours. That's all a win-win for the city.

      The real issue is that the opposition is using the bus stops as a pretext to combat the looming gentrification of the city that will raise rents and property values. Those who are vested in the status quo will find any way possible to obstruct that transformation.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    8. Re:Huh? by MacDork · · Score: 0

      How does Google employees waiting at bus stops cost the city money? Where's this loss coming from that Google must compensate for? Or is this just knee-jerk hostility from the usual suspects?

      What tax bracket were you in 2012? Did you pay 20%? 25%? Maybe 33%? Google pays 14%. So Google, who proudly avoids billions in taxes, wants to use publicly funded bus stops, roads, police services, and more. Google is the very definition of freeloader. Has it occurred to you that those kids (along with others all over the country that Google will not be helping) might not be so poor if the government services set up to help them had not gone unfunded due of lack of tax revenue? Now Google throws a few kids in SF a bone to the tune of a few thousand dollars and that makes Google a shining community member again? Fuck Google and fuck you for defending them.

    9. Re:Huh? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      What tax bracket were you in 2012? Did you pay 20%? 25%? Maybe 33%? Google pays 14%. So Google, who proudly avoids billions in taxes

      So, did you send Uncle Sam a bit extra on your taxes last year? If not, why not?

      And why would you expect Google (or anyone else) to pay more taxes than they are legally obilgated to pay? Especially when you, yourself, don't pay more taxes than you're legally obligated to pay....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    10. Re:Huh? by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      What tax bracket were you in 2012? Did you pay 20%? 25%? Maybe 33%? Google pays 14%. . . Has it occurred to you that those kids (along with others all over the country that Google will not be helping) might not be so poor if the government services set up to help them had not gone unfunded due of lack of tax revenue?

      Google employees, however, generally have to pay the same tax rate that the rest of us do (excluding capital gains from stock holdings, but most of them will get the vast majority of their income from their salary). And if they're living in the city (and spending in the city), that will increase SF's tax revenue.

    11. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Customer wear
      Tire tear
      Insurance fear
      And cleaning
      Burma Shave

    12. Re:Huh? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      unless you are paying more than you are required to by law in taxes, kindly go fuck yourself. google pays 14%, and how many millions or billions of dollars is that? The bottom 50% pay 0 in taxes, perhaps they should be paying 14%... oh they make no money at all? well then perhaps they shouldnt use the roads either...

      That is the kind of logic you are trying to use on the so called rich, but you wont hold the poor to the same standard will you...

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    13. Re:Huh? by tgeller · · Score: 1

      Malls? MALLS? I'm guessing you don't actually live in San Francisco. ;)

      But seriously. If Google had easy access to such private spaces, and they were convenient to their employees (in the crowded Haight, Mission, etc.), I'm sure they'd use those options. But convenient stops big enough for a bus to pull into are quite rare there.

      --
      Tom Geller
    14. Re:Huh? by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      If this about taxes, then have the laws changed that allows Google to pay (only?) 14% tax. And stop discussing about what a bus stop costs!

      --
      bickerdyke
    15. Re:Huh? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      So, did you send Uncle Sam a bit extra on your taxes last year?

      Yep. I actually pay a little extra every year, just so I can tell assholes like yourself to fuck off. Any other pearls of wisdom that you have to share, dickhead?

    16. Re:Huh? by MacDork · · Score: 1

      google pays 14%, and how many millions or billions of dollars is that? The bottom 50% pay 0 in taxes, perhaps they should be paying 14%... oh they make no money at all?

      You're not very good at math, are you? 14% of $0 is $0. Idiot.

      well then perhaps they shouldnt use the roads either...

      Perhaps next time you start a war, you can go fight it yourself instead of sending poor people off to die for you, cock gobbler.

    17. Re:Huh? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, they do cost the city money in that that can (and do) delay the actual city busses from stopping at the stops

      On the other hand replacing private cars with corporate shuttle busses probably reduces general road congestion which also costs the city money.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    18. Re:Huh? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      Your a tool dork, the fact that they dont make any money (not all 50 percent make 0 btw) was intended as stated, sorry if you dont get sarcasm.....

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    19. Re:Huh? by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Google using a community resource in this way has the side effect of making it convenient for Googlers who would otherwise choose not to live in the city. That bolsters its tax base while contributing to a reduction of traffic and vehicle emissions during the daily rush hours.

      Some would say that therefore not having the resource would mean they would leave the city. If they moved closer to work (and Google ran local shuttles) that would also reduce emissions.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    20. Re:Huh? by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      On the other hand replacing private cars with corporate shuttle busses probably reduces general road congestion which also costs the city money.

      SF is supposed to be a transit-first city. The goal is to make public transit an attractive-enough option to persuade people to use it rather than private autos. Therefore, anything that hinders public transit is bad.

      The congestion in SF would also be less if those who worked in Mountain View also lived in Mountain View (or at least within a 10-mile radius).

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
  7. Two approaches to improving things by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1. Welfare
    2. Gentrification

    One approach says "give the poor some stuff to help them get a leg up, live slightly better and afford them some opportunities." The other says "Give the rich some room to grown in poor/bad neighborhoods and see if things trickle down to improve the local economy."

    Well? I'm a little undecided which is best because frankly, the first option would work on me. I have been on public assistance in the past. I didn't like it and got off of it as soon as possible. On the other hand, some people are quite compfortable wallowing in that sh!t.

    Meanwhile, the things I have seen come through gentrification have been successful. I have not seen any information related to gentrification failures other than "they say don't! whites not welcome here!" and then they don't do it. So if anyone can point to "gentrification gone bad" I'd be interested in learning about it.

    1. Re:Two approaches to improving things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > On the other hand, some people are quite compfortable wallowing in that sh!t.

      "some" as far as I can tell from people researching on it seems to be "a tiny minority, and usually only for a fairly limited time". And who knows what they do when they work. I see little point in designing society around a tiny and honestly irrelevant minority.

    2. Re:Two approaches to improving things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You mean, like homosexuals?

      See what you did there?

    3. Re:Two approaches to improving things by Bengie · · Score: 1

      erroneus, as all things in life, a bit of both. All about balance.

    4. Re:Two approaches to improving things by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      Gentrification in Chicago made the crappy neighborhoods of Bucktown and Wicker Park more liveable in the 90's, and helped improve real estate values for Ukrainian Village in the 2000's. More tax revenues from real estate = better funding for schools, fire & police departments. What's not to like about gentrification? Poor people have to move? So fucking what. Shitty neighborhoods are now better places to live. Cabrini Green is now gone, but in place Chicago has a new high school that's very highly-ranked (Walter Payton High). I'm ok with that trade-off.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    5. Re:Two approaches to improving things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What in the world does homosexuality have to do with anything?

    6. Re:Two approaches to improving things by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Poor people needing to move is a bigger deal than richer people moving in. Cars and trucks are less common and the welfare offices are typically closer to the poor areas as well. I don't really want to argue in favor of welfare because it sucks and people live on it too often and for too long to the point that design their lives around it and even have kids to collect more. (I have personally seen that... really freaked me out to learn that it was real and the women doing it were REALLY pretty so I was shocked they weren't able to get better jobs than "welfare recipient and mother.")

    7. Re:Two approaches to improving things by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Well, what jobs did you have in mind where being "REALLY pretty" is the key qualification?

      --
      bickerdyke
    8. Re:Two approaches to improving things by erroneus · · Score: 1

      It's nor a qualifier, but let's face it -- attractive people get more opportunities. "Ugly" is among the last remaining minorities. Women (especially) when two or more candidates are otherwise equalle qualified, the pretty one gets it even when the interviewer is female... unless she's unattractive and insecure about it. Often times, less qualified but attractive women still get the job over more qualified. I've just seen it far too often to ignore and if you can't see it, you're blind.

    9. Re:Two approaches to improving things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the people "researching" the problem ever really talk to the social workers that deal with the people receiving the benefits. There are people that have been on it for generations. There are over 120 different Federal programs and numerous state run ones. People move from program to program and do the absolute minimum so they can qualify for something that they left a short time ago or try to scam the system for more that what they qualify for. It's downright sad that we allow people to do this crap.

    10. Re:Two approaches to improving things by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Gentrification can fix rundown neighborhoods and bring in upscale businesses, but it doesn't improve the lives of the people that were living in that area. It just displaces them. In other words, gentrification fixes buildings and property values, not people.

      Welfare is a safety net. It can help someone pick themselves up after either bad luck or bad decisions, but it isn't a permanent solution.

    11. Re:Two approaches to improving things by erroneus · · Score: 1

      For some welfare is a hammock and they learn to get quite comfortable in it.

    12. Re:Two approaches to improving things by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      frankly, the first option would work on me. I have been on public assistance in the past. I didn't like it and got off of it as soon as possible. On the other hand, some people are quite compfortable wallowing in that sh!t.

      That's me. When I got laid off, I refused to get unemployment because I knew I wouldn't look for a job if I were on it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:Two approaches to improving things by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, I really like this approach. They give every homeless person a home and a social worker, so they can learn to do better. The problem with welfare in America isn't that it's trying to help people; the problem with welfare in America is it's too stuck, doing things that don't help, and not researching what would work better.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  8. Planned Parenthood by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

    Had the right idea.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  9. Let me get this straight: by Arancaytar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Corporation does nothing to help the poor.
    - Evil.
    2. Corporation does something to help the poor.
    - PR move.

    1. Re:Let me get this straight: by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More to the point. Google offered this service as a benifit to their employees. In a world where are employee benifits are getting whacked every year in both unioned and non unioned shops. Why should we get so outrage that a company is offering benifits?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Let me get this straight: by invictusvoyd · · Score: 1

      3) A corporation exists and does anything and everything - Profit

    3. Re:Let me get this straight: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      3 If said corporation had done something to help the poor before and not after public criticism.
      - No PR move.

    4. Re:Let me get this straight: by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      Every charitable donation a corporation makes, is a PR move. They do it to make their company look good, give themselves a better image to help them sell more product, or to get something in return that benefits them like using existing bus stops.

      Even if Google had done this before the whole furore started, it'd have been a PR move. It'd just have been less high profile.

      And either way it's a good thing for all those low-income people that suddenly gain a lot more mobility.

    5. Re:Let me get this straight: by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Couldn't have said it better myself. Whether you think this PR stunt exonerates Google of any blame for "things" or not, and whether you think charity is a suitable substitute for proper taxation or not, doesn't change the fact that a large injection of cash into "buses for poor young people" is obviously a good thing.

      Perhaps it is cynical and we should be cynical. But hey, it's still a good outcome.

    6. Re:Let me get this straight: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not evil, it's just amoral.

      That's because corporations are not people. It's beyond embarrassing at this point that such a simple fact still has to be repeated. It's probably past even sickening.

      Corporations are not people. Stop anthropomorphizing them. That would include their megaphone voice in politics and peoples' inability to be held personally accountable for their actions. Doing something in the name of a group should not make you immune to prosecution.

    7. Re:Let me get this straight: by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      And it has a wider social benefit in taking cars off the road reducing congestion and pollution - if i where Google id be tempted to offer interest free loans an tell people go down the ford dealer and get your self a mustang super snake and if your an engineer and dont appreciate some nice automotive muscle we we shouldn't have employed you hears for performance improvement plan.

    8. Re:Let me get this straight: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More to the point. Google offered this service as a benifit to their employees. In a world where are employee benifits are getting whacked every year in both unioned and non unioned shops. Why should we get so outrage that a company is offering benifits?

      The reason is called Envy.

      The ones complaining are, obviously, not Google employees, thus they are outraged that some people are getting benefits they themselves do not get.

    9. Re:Let me get this straight: by Technomancer · · Score: 1

      Visit Google and look at the parking lot, Prius. Leaf and Tesla driving crowd there mostly. And some exotics sprinkled here and there. I would say than on average Google folks seem to care about environment and society more than employees at other companies I have seen.

    10. Re: Let me get this straight: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't help but see anterior motives here by google.

      Bus with wifi = more time to work
      Bus = have to travel when we want you to hence work later?
      Cafeteria = don't leave office so more work

      They also really should start paying their taxes. California is broke and it shouldn't be if they just paid their fair taxes to the society that allows them to function. It's the inequality and lack of taxes paid that will being this all to a head.

    11. Re:Let me get this straight: by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I am envious too. However I don't think I should be complaining that a bunch of people mostly who have the skills to do the job, got lucky enough, to get the job there.
      If I am too envious I would try to apply to Google.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    12. Re:Let me get this straight: by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Oh dear employing to many COBOL programmers and MBA's :-)

  10. telecommute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't have to stay home every day. 1 day a week for a meeting etc. And you don't waste 2 hours a day getting ready and traveling to work. Plus I know people who leave a group Skype call on all day. It's very easy to lock yourself in a study ifyou have kids or a dog wife

    1. Re:telecommute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You don't have to stay home every day. 1 day a week for a meeting etc. And you don't waste 2 hours a day getting ready and traveling to work. Plus I know people who leave a group Skype call on all day. It's very easy to lock yourself in a study ifyou have kids or a dog wife

      If I had a dog wife I would be "working late" at the office..

    2. Re:telecommute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ifyou have kids or a dog wife

      They always said that if gays "married" then the next step would be the bestiosexuals. I always thought it was argumentum ad absurdum. Now we have dog wives. SMH

  11. Stolen PR move. by geekmux · · Score: 1, Insightful

    'It's a last-minute PR move on their part, and they're trying to use youth unfairly to create a better brand image in the city,'

    Ironically, when I read this statement, it sounded like a line straight out of Big Tobacco's Advertising 101 playbook.

    Don't be so quick to judge. At least when Google does PR, they don't kill millions of people in the process selling their product.

  12. Keeping the peasants in line by Required+Snark · · Score: 1, Troll
    The Lords of Google have been forced pay attention because the peasants are actively resisting the annexation of the formerly free city of San Francisco by the Sovereign Realm of Google. The Realm needs to annex the city for housing for it's ever expanding noble classes. (See Lebensraum.)

    The current plan is to allow the children of the peasants to gather windfall in the orchards of Google. This costs Google a tiny fraction of it's vast wealth, and makes it seem that they care about the peasants, because they are selflessly helping the children! Hopefully the stupid peasants will shut up and gratefully accept this bright trinket, so the serious project of evicting them from their land can continue unimpeded.

    Don't (get caught) doing evil.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:Keeping the peasants in line by C0R1D4N · · Score: 1

      I never realized how windfall got its meaning until your post. Neat.

    2. Re:Keeping the peasants in line by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1

      The Lords of Google have been forced pay attention because the peasants are actively resisting the annexation of the formerly free city of San Francisco by the Sovereign Realm of Google. The Realm needs to annex the city for housing for it's ever expanding noble classes

      <sarcasm>Yeah how dare Google pay its employees well! And where do they get off providing a perk that makes their employee's commutes less onerous while simultaneously taking cars off the road, reducing traffic congestion and air pollution for everyone! I mean who do they think they are!! Certainly a Nazi-esque bit of "evil" if I've ever seen one.</sarcasm>

      --
      I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
  13. Corporations Absorbing Public Chores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charity or State substituted by Corporations. Or incorporated? There should be a name for that. Oh, (etc.) ...

    "Easing the load on the public" (donors and the State). Which they otherwise exploit and manipulate relentlessly, along with (almost) all the rest of society. My, what a *nice* carrot! Still nicer than the usual "we're doing whatever we want anyway, so what?" attitude and practice. Would it be too churlish to mention honey-coated whips? Forked, as the tongues respective tend to be.

  14. A tale of two standards by davide+marney · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "in Oakland, according to reports from IndyBay, as protesters unfurled two giant banners reading "TECHIES: Your World Is Not Welcome Here" and "Fuck off Google", "a person appeared from behind the bus and quickly smashed the whole of the rear window"

    "So we'll continue to work with the city on these fees, and in the meantime will fund MUNI passes for low income students [an existing program] for the next two years.'"

    One of these groups is judged by our society as being "evil" and the other as "progressive".

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's called the mob rule - when an angry mob goes on a rampage, you don't criticize the mob, else you would find yourself the next target.

    2. Re:A tale of two standards by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      One of these groups is judged by our society as being "evil" and the other as "progressive".

      I'm not personally against gentrification per se, it does make towns suck but it also raises property values and then you can move. Don't be so attached to one home, security is an illusion anyway. But in any case, one of these groups is contributing to gentrification and the other group isn't, so there is a pretty clear divide.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:A tale of two standards by lexman098 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have a feeling most of the upset people are renters. The property owners are all too glad for the influx of rich tenants. It sucks for the renters of course because rent goes up, but their income doesn't. They're being pushed out of their home while they see a private bus full of yuppies drive by. It's an easy target.

      Quite obviously, an influx of wealth to a particular area can be a good thing, but city planners have to make the most of it. This seems to be a case of stagnant development at a time when they need it most.

    4. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of these groups is judged by our society as being "evil" and the other as "progressive".

      It's about entitlement. When the next guy accomplishes something by the sweat of his own brow, it's easy to imagine he owes you, that you are entitled to a share of the fruits of his labor. When you perceive you aren't being given your fair share, it's easy to get angry.

    5. Re:A tale of two standards by Immerman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Does your assumption still hold when the guy next door accomplishes something by sitting on his ass at a cushy tech job for eight hours a day, while you bust your ass working two full time jobs just to be able to put food on the table for your family?

      Not everybody has the option to become a competent programmer, engineer, etc. Excelling at such occupations requires certain kinds of biological advantages that most people just don't have. The problem is that our society has been systematically eliminating most of the occupations where an honest, hard-working, but not-especially-bright-nor-politically-savvy person can make a decent living.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:A tale of two standards by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      a lot of American renters seem to have this sense of entitlement - id love to live in central London but i cant afford it so i commute i dont go smashing windows in knights-bridge and have Boris Johnson wring his hands on my behalf

    7. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you understand. Jobs and housing are quite far apart as it is in the US. Someone that commutes an hour a day and barely scraping by will go into bankruptcy if they have to commute two hours instead just to keep the same rental price. They see this as an attack on the well being of their family in comparison with being burglarized by someone wealthier than they are. It has the same result. Rich get richer, poor get poorer. It has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement. The poor in the US only have time to think about survival.

    8. Re:A tale of two standards by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Rent is theft. Part of the system, which is largely about theft. Originally, about preventing it; now, about rubberstamping it. But if you can't afford to own in SF, you can't afford to live there like a human. Why try?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:A tale of two standards by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      But what we have here is people moving into the city, but the jobs being outside in the valley. So they're basically accepting a longer commute and probably higher rents. If people are pushed out of the city by that, they probably would be closer to the better job opportunities in the SF vicinity.

      --
      bickerdyke
    10. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So your argument is Google buses are bad because entrenched unionized monopolies are no longer making it easy for blue collar workers to buy McMansions and sports cars without any attempt to apply themselves in school or spend their evenings doing anything other than watching TV, drinking beer and beating their wives?

      I may be putting some words in your mouth there, but "work" is work. You don't value Dwight Nerdly's contribution as highly as a convenience store clerk/janitor, but that's merely your subjective opinion, not a fact.

    11. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rent is theft.

      It goes against my better judgement, but I will go ahead and reward your clumsy grab for attention by asking the question you were desperately hoping to provoke:

      Why is rent "theft"?

      I mean, obviously you won't be able to answer that question intelligently. But it's what you wanted, so there it is.

    12. Re:A tale of two standards by Immerman · · Score: 1

      No, I said nothing about the buses at all, I actually think they're a fantastic idea for a job perk. If I had said anything it would have been only that they are an easy target for people who are justifiably angry at being victims of a far more endemic social problem.

      And as a matter of fact I consider janitors to be one of the most valuable occupations on the planet. But we're not talking about what I value, we're talking about what the job pays. And even a full-time minimum-wage job isn't going to let anyone live comfortably unless they're almost completely immune to the materialistic obsession that saturates our culture.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    13. Re:A tale of two standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people have traveled thousands of miles to illegally enter the US, busted their asses working several hours a day 6 or 7 days a week, save money to send home, and still somehow transform their neighborhoods from the dumps that they were when they originally moved in. I respect what those people have done, not the ones who have the ample free time to protest "Big Data" and bust out windows of buses taking people to work.

  15. Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Should this mythical land of the free allow you to run a bus service with vehicles that are a menace to its passengers or other road users?"

    They're not a menace. That's emotional talk from someone who feels as if they want to be taken care of by others.

    "Would you mind if this bus service cherry-picks the profitable routes, so that companies that try to offer more balanced public transport go bankrupt?"

    Yes. Google is allowed to run a bus service for it's employees without regard to whatever service San Francisco wants to run. Maybe San Fran ought to hire Google to run it's busses.

    1. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by mellon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would be absolutely awesome of Samtrans or Muni provided a service similar to what the Google buses provide, but they don't, and they have actively worked to avoid doing so. So the activists really have no leg to stand on here. They should be trying to fix public transit in the bay area, not prevent people from working around its brokenness.

    2. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Maybe San Fran ought to hire Google to run it's busses.

      So it can create a bus service until one day when it decides, "We've decided to discontinue this service, because, well, none of your business".

      Why not let Google run the fire department too? They'll put out your fire as long as you sign off on their terms of service.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by C0R1D4N · · Score: 1

      That is why you have fixed term contracts.

    4. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Why not let Google run the fire department too?

      I'd expect them to run the fire department in their own burbclaves. ;-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by mean+pun · · Score: 0

      The point is not that Google is likely to run dangerous busses; they have every reason not to. The point is that any city in a civilised country will have to do some kind regulation of its bus services, because otherwise all kind of shady bus companies will pop up. That will require paperwork and administration fees. Sneering at "papers and baksheesh" as the original AC did is therefore shortsighted.

    6. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by hawguy · · Score: 1

      It would be absolutely awesome of Samtrans or Muni provided a service similar to what the Google buses provide, but they don't, and they have actively worked to avoid doing so. So the activists really have no leg to stand on here. They should be trying to fix public transit in the bay area, not prevent people from working around its brokenness.

      You think SamTrans should run buses directly from places where Google (and Apple, etc) employees live to their workplace with no other stops?

      I'm not sure anyone would be happier to see millions of dollars used to create publicly funded employer shuttles.

      Extending Caltrain to the new Transbay terminal would go a long way toward making Caltrain a commute option for more people, but even so, for the amount of time it takes to get from Noe Valley to the Transbay on transit, an employer shuttle bus can be half way to Mountain View.

    7. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by pla · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The point is that any city in a civilised country will have to do some kind regulation of its bus services, because otherwise all kind of shady bus companies will pop up.

      You realize that you can charter a private bus, from dozens of different companies, just about anywhere in the US, right? That you or I could hire a bus right now, to haul our 40 closest friends halfway across the country and drop us off in a cornfield in Nebraska, no questions asked?

      The only part of this making it at all an unusual situation, Silicon Valley has decided to offer them on a regular basis to tech workers as a job perk, thereby filling a glaring gap in SF's public transit system.

      Or looked at differently - When companies do this (and they do) to haul migrant workers from "stops" at every Home Depot in the area, to pick crops on a Georgia plantation, we applaud them for accommodating the needs of the poor. When Google does the same as a way to work around CalTrans' abysmal inter-city service, we give them hell. Pick a stance, folks - Accommodating and environmentally sound, or gentrifying and elitist?

    8. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      You think SamTrans should run buses directly from places where Google (and Apple, etc) employees live to their workplace with no other stops?

      I'm not sure anyone would be happier to see millions of dollars used to create publicly funded employer shuttles.

      Well, there seems to be a demand for it and it seems there is already someone PAYING for such a service.

      I wouldn't know why a public foundes bus company should be damned to only serve routes that lose money.

      --
      bickerdyke
    9. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by hawguy · · Score: 1

      You think SamTrans should run buses directly from places where Google (and Apple, etc) employees live to their workplace with no other stops?

      I'm not sure anyone would be happier to see millions of dollars used to create publicly funded employer shuttles.

      Well, there seems to be a demand for it and it seems there is already someone PAYING for such a service.

      I wouldn't know why a public foundes bus company should be damned to only serve routes that lose money.

      Running a bus one-way from a neighborhood to a single employer is not going to be a profitable public transit line. Even if Google paid SamTrans what they pay for their private bus, it wouldn't cover SamTrans' costs. Public transit is more expensive than private transit.

    10. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by ragethehotey · · Score: 1

      The only part of this making it at all an unusual situation, Silicon Valley has decided to offer them on a regular basis to tech workers as a job perk, thereby filling a glaring gap in SF's public transit system.

      this so called gap is *because* companies built their "campuses" away from existing public transit infrastructure as it was much cheaper to do so
      the tech buses will always have some negative externalities associated with them

    11. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      god forbid a compnay build in a place it deems appropriate. If they built in SF the locals would be bitching that its right in their backyard. we cant ever seem to make SF happy

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    12. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      If Google built their facility right in SanFran, it'd drive up the cost of housing there even more, and all these people would still be bitching about gentrification.

    13. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I'd expect them to run the fire department in their own burbclaves. ;-)

      The problem is not that Google won't run the services in their own burbclave, it's that their employees keep insisting on living around normal people.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by khallow · · Score: 1

      If that really is all you're complaining about, then private bus services are already regulated in the US and I bet San Fransisco already has its own regulations on the matter. There seems no point to your concern.

    15. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by CycleMan · · Score: 1

      Silicon Valley has decided to offer them on a regular basis to tech workers as a job perk, thereby filling a glaring gap in SF's public transit system.

      this so called gap is *because* companies built their "campuses" away from existing public transit infrastructure as it was much cheaper to do so

      There probably was not a bus stop next to a vacant field before the campus was built. Because it wouldn't have made an ounce of sense. However, Silicon Valley public transit agencies perpetually revise routes and schedules to accommodate rider demand. Most or all major corporate campuses have at least one bus stop right beside them.

      The hard part is that the Bay Area's geography and historical development focus are not based on high density and urban cores, but on preservation of open spaces, family farms, large lots, a car culture, etc. which all mean that people commute in all directions, a difficult thing for mass transit to effectively and profitably support. Development is helter-skelter around here, because whoever sells a large piece of low-density land sees instant high-density redevelopment, but the plot across the street remains low-density. Plus, the Bay Area is as many as 9 counties, each with their own transit agency, and multi-county routes are pretty much limited to two semi-linear rail lines, CalTrain and BART. A San Francisco to Mountain View bus crosses three counties, so no agency offers it.

    16. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      it's that their employees keep insisting on living around normal people

      Are you suggesting that Google employees are abnormal people, or that they should live in a ghetto, or both?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    17. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 1

      > Yes. Google is allowed to run a bus service for it's employees without regard to whatever service
      > San Francisco wants to run. Maybe San Fran ought to hire Google to run it's busses.

      First, it is Google that interfered with SFMTA buses, not the other way around. Not sure how you missed that.

      Second, you are using a strawman. There is absolutely nobody who said Google doesn't have a right to run buses.

      The issue has been entirely about Google doing what Google very definitely does NOT have a right to do:

      - Google does not have a right to break the law by squatting on SFMTA facilities (but they did that anyway)
      - Google does not have a right not to pay the fines they accrued while squatting on SFMTA facilities (but they did not pay them anyway)
      - Google does not have a right to complain that they have to run their own buses only because of a lack of public transit infrastructure for its workers when Google pays 6% in taxes (but they did anyway)
      - Google does not have the right to expect the City and County of San Francisco to artificially subsidize a bus service run by a private company in an entirely different city and county (but they apparently did expect that)

      If Google has a right to run buses without San Francisco interfering, surely you would agree that San Francisco has a right to run a public transit system without Google interfering? That is all that the citizens of San Francisco are asking for.

    18. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 1

      It would be absolutely awesome if Google paid more than 6% in taxes, because then there would be some money to create new public transit for Google.

    19. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 1

      Google is paying for their own buses because Google barely pays taxes.

    20. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 0

      > The only part of this making it at all an unusual situation, Silicon Valley has decided to offer them on a regular basis to tech workers as a job perk, thereby filling a glaring gap in SF's public transit system.

      Silicon Valley is not in San Francisco. There is no gap in SF's public transit system. Google is not even in the same county as SFMTA. AND, there is plenty of public transit between San Francisco and Mountain View. There is a giant fucking train leaving 3rd and King in San Francisco every half hour that takes you right to fucking Mountain View.

      The *problem* is Google pays 6% in taxes and runs its own buses and also wants to use SFMTA facilities for free. They don't support the SFMTA with taxes or fares, but they want to squat on their facilities. The further problem is, when Google got caught, instead of paying the $500 million in fines that they legitimately earned, they worked out some deal where they give some money to charity. Even as everyone else who broke those same laws is still expected to pay their fines. Actual San Francisco citizens and businesses were fined $1 million by SFMTA last year for breaking these laws, and SFMTA cops even shot one guy dead for not paying his fare.

      But the idea of Google being treated equally is controversial.

      Another problem is Google wants to be seen as part of the community (“our buses are environmentally friendly”) but they don't pay into the community. They barely pay taxes. In that case, OK, run your own buses, but don't use SFMTA stops, and don't complain that the public didn't already build you a fleet of public Google buses. The reason for that is no tax money, because Google and others like them didn't pay taxes.

      Imagine if you lived in San Francisco, paying taxes into SFMTA, and you work in Mountain View, but not for Google. You go out to the bus stop outside your house one morning and its suddenly crowded by Google employees. A bus pulls up to the stop it has paid nothing to use, and takes the Google employees directly to Mountain View. You, however, pay to get onto SFMTA and then pay to get on CalTrain and go to Mountain View. Why can't you get on the bus that is direct to Mountain View? Because Google doesn't pay their fair share of taxes. If they did, there could be a new SF-to-Silicon-Valley transit system that served everyone who needed to get between those 2 places, and Google wouldn't have to run their own buses.

      So what Google has done is the worst of all worlds. Pay almost no taxes, do nothing to help the community create a public transit system between SF and Silicon Valley, complain about the lack of that public transit system anyway, then run your own buses, squat on public transit infrastructure you don't pay for, then not pay the fines you accrued by doing that, then give some “charity” instead that amounts to a small percentage of the fines, and in the whole process, enable your employees to live somewhere they don't work and don't contribute, so they can drive people out of their homes in San Francisco with their artificial Silicon Valley money.

    21. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 1

      The issue is not whether a company can build where they think it is appropriate.

      The issue is whether or not a company can break the laws of a city in the next county over and get away with it.

      I would love to hear your defense for that.

    22. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      what has one to do with the other?

      --
      bickerdyke
    23. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by gig · · Score: 1

      But the one city that does have urban density and great public transit is San Francisco. Who is apparently expected to run free bus stop infrastructure for Google and look the other way even though Google is breaking the law.

      What is amazing is all the knee-jerk libertarian sociopaths here who think San Francisco or SFMTA have victimized Google in some way. One of the major reasons this is all controversial is that the San Francisco government and SFMTA LOOKED THE OTHER WAY while Google did all this. SFMTA cops fined riders who didn't pay their fares, they fined tour buses that stopped at SFMTA stops, but they didn't interfere with Google. They just thought “Google is rich and benevolent” and let them be. It is only after the community asked why are SFMTA cops giving out $1 million in fines to riders who don't pay their fare and non-Google private buses that use SFMTA stops, but nothing for Google, who ran up $500 million in fines all by themselves?

      When you get onto an SFMTA vehicle and pay the fare, you are paying not only for that vehicle, but also for the stops. There was a guy who didn't pay his fare recently and SFMTA cops shot him dead. Meanwhile, the same SFMTA cops looked the other way as Google buses rolled up to stops and didn't pay anything. And now, Google is giving some charity. It's not good enough. This is a massive black eye for Google and also for their employees who live in San Francisco, who are quite deserving when their neighbors shun them.

    24. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      If that really is all you're complaining about, then private bus services are already regulated in the US and I bet San Fransisco already has its own regulations on the matter. There seems no point to your concern.

      I was not complaining, I was not concerned, I was simply pointing out to an all-government-is-evil zealot that the paperwork and fees are there for a reason, even in `the land of the free'.

      I am amused that on /. this draws both Insightful and Troll moderation, though.

      However, I do apologise for the mental anguish I seem to have inflicted on the language purists. Usually I know better than this, and I imagine that life must be hard enough for them when they are patrolling /. without me adding to their burden.

    25. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by havana9 · · Score: 1

      Running a bus one-way from a neighborhood to a single employer is not going to be a profitable public transit line. Even if Google paid SamTrans what they pay for their private bus, it wouldn't cover SamTrans' costs. Public transit is more expensive than private transit.

      I don't understand. Here in Italy, public bus companies (city owned) can also offer charter bus routes for special events and are making special bus routes for factories, that is, they are running only in entrance and exit hours, and sometimes, you must begin or end the travel at the factory terminus.
      There are also privately-owned bus companies that make the same arrangments, and have also a public transportation license, so they also run normal public transportation coaches.

    26. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you'll be happy to hear that last year it was 15.7% and over the last 3 years it averaged about 18%. Google pays over $2B in taxes a year.

      My source is the SEC filings[1], what's yours?

      [1] http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1288776/000128877614000020/goog2013123110-k.htm

    27. Re:Stop the emotion, use logic next time. by nashv · · Score: 1

      What exactly is the law being broken by providing a service for your own employees? Serious question. Is that law reasonable?

      --
      Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
  16. Please mod this person up by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

    Well said, and very likely true.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  17. Telecommute Studio Rooms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Studios have red lights to keep things straight. Telecommuting could incorporate that at home. And a few other revolutionarily bright ideas and practices. Nota a problem for privileged corporate world hegemon drones (the "old" meaning of 'drones', savvy?) to help implement. They like helping.

  18. Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

    I still don't understand the uproar over Googlers carpooling to work...

    1. Re:Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by oscrivellodds · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah, Obama did it all. Bush didn't get us into two wars without funding and let wall street destroy the housing and banking systems. That Obama guy wrecked EVERYTHING!

    2. Re:Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The jobless are envious because they don't have a workplace to carpool to. Thanks to Obama the only American jobs are in Afghanistan or Guantanamo.

      Or, WallMart (good, right?) Or McDonalds (good, right?)

    3. Re:Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      wow, 5 years out, still blaming bush? You need to move on.

    4. Re:Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      wow, 5 years out, still blaming bush? You need to move on.

      Blame Bush?

      Hell, I still blame Reagan.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:Since when did carpooling become "evil?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to be fair it wasn't the last bush that really screwed the housing and banking systems.

      But he sure did get us all into a couple of pretty stupid wars.

  19. Charity vs Taxation by Blaskowicz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why should we applaud the good prince's largesses? Yes, this is actually nice, encouraging the use of public buses and giving short change for that.
    But I find it weird that a giant company wants to substitute itself with what should the town's/muncipality's/local government's duties. And it's a PR move anyway, one that reinforces the notion that a giant private company can appriopriate public space, pay little to no tax and do whatever it wants with no accountability.

    In general, I don't get the cultural fascination that US americans have for charity, while at the same time showing extreme disdain for welfare, public services, public funding of infrastructure (except for roads, military and prisons, go figure) and even decent conditions of employment.
    E.g. waiters/waitresses are to be paid starvation wages, and rely on tips. Why do they have to beg?, is it so that customers can feel superior or something?, I have trouble understanding this.

    Google hides its profits in the Carribean and pays no taxes. What about fixing that. Hire well paid accountant/fiscalist lawyer types to try and close as many of those fucking tax loopholes as they can. Billions upon billions are missing.
    Google wants to give $6.8 million in charity money over two years, probably getting some more tax deduction in the way. Fuck them.

    1. Re:Charity vs Taxation by SternisheFan · · Score: 1
      Why isn't San Fransisco allowing students to ride public transportation for free? Google is a private company that's done well, and can do whatever it wants with it's money, that they choose to do this is to be applauded.

      I agree, fix the tax loopholes for ALL companies. Until that is done, all companies will take advantage of them.

    2. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What if Google employees didn't have the buses. They would still live in the area and commute wouldn't they? Thus tying up the roads with more cars and no one would say a damn word. Also where do the employees of Google spend their dollars? In the local businesses where they live thus giving local business a boost and so on. The general neighbour hood becomes more wealthy by having a big employer around... you should see what happens here in Australia when a big mining employer pulls out of a town - all the local businesses go belly up.

    3. Re:Charity vs Taxation by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      In general, I don't get the cultural fascination that US americans have for charity, while at the same time showing extreme disdain for welfare, public services, public funding of infrastructure (except for roads, military and prisons, go figure) and even decent conditions of employment.
      E.g. waiters/waitresses are to be paid starvation wages, and rely on tips. Why do they have to beg?, is it so that customers can feel superior or something?, I have trouble understanding this.

      Well, here go my mod points. It's because we're assholes who still want to feel good about ourselves. When we engage in the charity that we should support all the time, we get to feel good. So, yes. It's so that customers can feel superior. Not to the server, necessarily; to their actual selves.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Charity vs Taxation by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Charity is voluntary, while welfare is extracted with a gun to your head. The recipient of charity is motivated to change their situation, while the recipients of welfare become dependent, believing they are owed a living. Food service is actually more of a welfare culture that benefits wealthy restaurant owners like Walmart is benefited by employees on public assistance; servers don't beg, they believe they are owed 15-20%, and they generally are paid way more than they are worth.

    5. Re:Charity vs Taxation by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should we applaud the good prince's largesses? Yes, this is actually nice, encouraging the use of public buses and giving short change for that. But I find it weird that a giant company wants to substitute itself with what should the town's/muncipality's/local government's duties. And it's a PR move anyway, one that reinforces the notion that a giant private company can appriopriate public space, pay little to no tax and do whatever it wants with no accountability.

      You don't understand what's going on here.

      People have been complaining that Google uses public bus stops without paying for them. Google thought that was reasonable and offered to pay the city for the use of the stops, but state law doesn't allow the city to charge a reasonable amount for their use. So, Google and the city worked out what they thought would be a reasonable amount, and Google is paying that in the form of a donation, buying bus passes for kids. Meanwhile, Google is helping the city lobby to change the state law, so that the company can simply pay for the right to use the bus stops.

      Google has been trying to do the right things here, from beginning to end. Providing buses reduces congestion and greenhouse gases, and is a nice perk for employees who want to live in the city.

      Google hides its profits in the Carribean and pays no taxes. What about fixing that. Hire well paid accountant/fiscalist lawyer types to try and close as many of those fucking tax loopholes as they can.

      Are you proposing that the city should do that? The city doesn't have any right or power to tax Google (though it collects a lot of property taxes and sales taxes from the Google employees who live in the city, as well as property and other taxes for Google's building in the city). The taxes you're talking about that Google manages to avoid are largely federal, so San Francisco wouldn't see a dime of them anyway. Frankly, no one would see anything; they'd disappear into the federal deficit without making a ripple.

      In any case, not only is your tax argument completely irrelevant to the question, it's pretty ridiculous. Do you pay more federal taxes than you have to? If a company can legally avoid paying billions, do you seriously expect them to volunteer it? If you really think this is a problem, talk to your representatives about changing the federal laws.

      Personally, I think that corporate taxes, like all other forms of hidden taxation, are evil. All taxes are ultimately paid by the people as a whole, and taxing various, intermediate cash flows obscures how much the people are paying. Money Google pays in taxes is money that can't be paid to investors (which is taxed as capital gains), can't pay employees (which is taxed as income), can't spend on goods and services (which are taxed in all sorts of ways -- some of them also evil), and can't invest (which pushes the money to other companies which may buy stuff, pay employees, etc.). Taxes are necessary, but they should be transparent. Property taxes are good. Income taxes are good, including capital gains income taxes -- though mandatory withholdings are obnoxious. Sales taxes are okay, and it's even fine to tax different goods differently -- taxing luxury cars harder than food, for example, makes sense. The key is that all taxes should be directly paid by and be visible to the voters.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    6. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Nemyst · · Score: 2

      Have you ever dealt with a municipal transportation system? A lot of them, especially when you're trying to cross between city and suburbs, suck horribly. Moreover, actually getting them to fix things is akin to talking to a brick wall.

      In that context, it was probably easier for Google to take care of its own employees by putting up their own circuits which service areas where Google employees live. The only alternative was for the employees to live in the suburbs, which would give the city fewer taxes (since they're very much above the average salary in their neighborhoods) and wouldn't otherwise solve the transportation problem for anyone else.

      I also don't quite grasp "appropriate public space, pay little to no tax and do whatever it wants with no accountability". That's like saying a taxi cab is appropriating public space by stopping by a person to take them in. They used the existing stops system because it was more efficient and DIDN'T require them to actually appropriate public space in the form of adding their own bus stops. The only thing they use is the roads, and I'd rather have a bus than 30 cars. I don't see why giving buses to employees would imply paying more or less taxes. I also don't see where accountability comes into question; if they had drunk drivers or disrespected the law, sure, bring the hammer down. There's been none of that.

      Now, they're giving to another, completely unrelated system which they take no benefit from. Is it a PR move? Absolutely. Does that mean we should dismiss it? Hell no. They could've spent the money on lobbying, on disrupting the protests, on advertising against them, on pretty much anything else that would have given them more immediate gains. They chose not to. Good for them, and good for all those students who'll be able to get cheaper bus passes.

      That Google hides its profits in a tax haven is tangential. All the big corporations do it. If one of them decided not to, they'd probably get lambasted by their shareholders. It's not illegal, so they'll do it. Close the loophole, simple as that.

    7. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor. The next time you are thinking of sharing your "wise insights" with the rest of the world, don't. Just don't.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    8. Re:Charity vs Taxation by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      Proof that Google hides profits in the Carribean? That's a bold accusation Blaskowicz.

      It's more likely they're doing what Apple does, and have shell corporations in Ireland and other locales to avoid paying taxes. But I have no proof either way.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    9. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I agree, fix the tax loopholes for ALL companies.

      You have to fix tax rates at the same time as the loopholes because they are not independent of each other. The rates are modified based on existing loopholes and the loopholes are modified based on existing rates.

      The rates are the general discouragement of everything that isnt subsidized via loopholes and other subsidizing vehicles. Without the loopholes we have the highest corporate tax rates in the world. We used to be number two but we overtook japan when they lowered their general rates. It is not easy to believe that having the highest rates in the world is optimal (that every other country in the world has it wrong and in the same direction) so therefore it must be concluded that without the loopholes but maintaining the same rates that things would be terrible for us.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    10. Re:Charity vs Taxation by k8to · · Score: 1

      This is kind of a miss.

      There's a pretty able transit system that goes from San Francisco to Mountain View. It's called Caltrain. It's not perfect, and at off-hours it has more headway between trains than is highly desirable but it's extremely energy efficient and quite affordable as far as rail systems go.

      The real reason that the existing transport systems don't serve Google workers well is that Google HQ is over 3 miles away from the nearest train station.

      The inefficiency is all down in the suburb, not in the city.

      --
      -josh
    11. Re:Charity vs Taxation by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      The money sitting in the Caribbean wasn't earned in the USA anyway. It's sitting there waiting for either:

      1) The USA to drop its stupid double taxation policies (the money was already taxed once, where it was earned, and most countries try to avoid double taxing in this situatoin). In that case the money could be reallocate to the USA and spent there, where it would of course eventually get taxed again in the process of being paid out as wages or buying things, but at least just moving it into the states wouldn't be a taxable event.

      2) A use for it to crop up outside the USA.

      Obviously there's nothing you can spend billions of dollars on in the Caribbean - that's just a holding area until the money finds somewhere to be more useful.

    12. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find the tipping thing rather distasteful. I live in a somewhat corrupt 3rd world and tipping just reminds me too much of corruption.

      After all it would be considered corruption if my employer's customers rewarded me directly for doing my job differently/better or just plain doing my job as expected!

      In many companies and organizations around here receipt of rewards/gifts from customers are prohibited by policy.

    13. Re:Charity vs Taxation by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      In theory it permits you to penalize the server for not doing their job. That's how I use it. I tip nicely when they do their job. I tip poorly when they slack off annoyingly. I don't tip at all when they are jackholes. In practice, many people just don't tip. That's shitty.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Charity vs Taxation by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      In general, I don't get the cultural fascination that US americans have for charity, while at the same time showing extreme disdain for welfare, public services, public funding of infrastructure (except for roads, military and prisons, go figure) and even decent conditions of employment.
      E.g. waiters/waitresses are to be paid starvation wages, and rely on tips. Why do they have to beg?, is it so that customers can feel superior or something?, I have trouble understanding this.

      I have the same trouble understanding that. But I at least have a theory: They just don't want gouvernment to do it. They know that there should be some things provided by the society (welfare, health, education...) they want as little gouvernment involvement as possible. So it is widespread believe that "society" here means that everyone should take part of that responsibility by donating to charity as your income allows it.

      We Europeans rather think that all that stuf that "society" should provide is the very job of the gouvernment.

      In a very sketchy example, when someone donates to the establishment:
      In the US that would be a sign that society is still working, people are helping their fellow people and all is well as there is no need for gouvernment involvement.
      In wide parts of Europe, this would be a sign that gouvernment failed to provide even the basic human needs.

      --
      bickerdyke
    15. Re:Charity vs Taxation by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      There has to be more than that to it, because if that was the case, it would be cheaper for Google just to run a shuttle between the Google campus and the Caltrain station.

      --
      bickerdyke
    16. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile in Asia, there is no tipping, and you often get excellent service. In tipping cultures, you often get "passable" service. Reason: most of the time the tip goes into a "tip pool" anyway.

      Tipping needs to be eliminated, and shitty servers should simply get fired.

    17. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So a favorable solution for all would be:
      1. for Google to subsidize increased caltrain service
      2. run the buses to the station
      3. buy its employees transit passes for Muni and Caltrain...

      Might work...

    18. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reason: most of the time the tip goes into a "tip pool" anyway.

      [citation needed]

    19. Re:Charity vs Taxation by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The USA to drop its stupid double taxation policies (the money was already taxed once, where it was earned, and most countries try to avoid double taxing in this situatoin)

      As I understand it the US does give credit for foriegn tax paid.

      The trouble is the corporations in question have found accounting tricks that let them avoid paying corporate taxes in europe, so if/when they bring the money back to the US there is no foreign tax to claim credit for.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    20. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd hate to see the crappy service if waiters weren't working for tips.

    21. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Don't fuck with the discussion, I liked reading the above comment that gave a nicely succinct viewpoint on that cultural issue of charity vs welfare.

      Now please kill yourself, that will be a charity to all of us.

    22. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ZK Here. Not interested in burning mod points just to tell you what you should already know. I really don't give a flying fuck what you think, and the only time I might care is if I needed a really good laugh. Now off you go little douchebag ....

    23. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

      You americans ALWAYS think you have the highest taxes
      The highest prices
      the highest government intervention
      the highest fucking everything.

      Fact is; your prices are low, your taxes are low, but the real kicker is, your minimum wage is fucking abysmal.

      The only thing you guys can complain about is your minimum wage. Because that shit is fucking shameful for a country that claims they are "wealthy". Your minimum wage is slave-labor-african-starving bad. And you dickheads can't seem to notice, you instead complain about your tax rates ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

      Your tax rates aren't the lowest, but they sure as fucking shit aren't the worst.

    24. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you telling me that you think Google prefer to run busses between 2 cities; rather than a short 3km trip from the caltrain station in mountain view?

      You sir; are a fucking moron.

    25. Re:Charity vs Taxation by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      All taxes are ultimately paid by the people as a whole

      I do not know why some people think this is true. A company producing X and selling it for Y, isn't going to automatically raise the cost of X if their taxes go up. Is that what you mean? Passed on to the consumer?

      Because that is wrong. A company producing X is going to seek to sell it at the highest cost they can, always. A higher tax may make their profit margin go down, but it doesn't automatically translate to a cost to consumers, or society as a whole.

      That is why the US wealth inequality is so high right now. Company profit is not often used to expand business, or hire more people. It is just making rich folks richer. The rich/corporations generally understand that if there is no extra demand for a product or service, it makes little sense to expand production of that service.

      New products and services are different. But those come on to the market at a much slower rate the consumption of existing products and services. Hence, when your average company gets a tax break, it does not, on average, mean more jobs or a cheaper costing product.

    26. Re:Charity vs Taxation by swillden · · Score: 1

      I do not know why some people think this is true. A company producing X and selling it for Y, isn't going to automatically raise the cost of X if their taxes go up. Is that what you mean? Passed on to the consumer?

      No.

      Well, actually, that is one of the mechanisms, among many (some of which I actually mentioned in the post you replied to; perhaps you should re-read it). And it does happen more than you seem to think; a given company can't just raise prices because their cost of doing business goes up, because their competition will undercut them. But if you raise the costs across the board for a whole industry then that dynamic no longer applies, and prices will go up. But the core point is that ultimately all money ends up in the hands of people (real people, not fictitious corporate "people"); corporations are just a mechanism for consolidating the wealth of many and then redistributing the profits (or losses) generated.

      That is why the US wealth inequality is so high right now. Company profit is not often used to expand business, or hire more people. It is just making rich folks richer.

      So tax the rich folks when they get richer. But, actually, that statement "making the rich folks richer" doesn't really mean what you probably think it does. If you look at where the wealthy have their money, most of them don't actually have that much actual money; it's all estimated value based on their ownership of portions of productive enterprises. This means the actual value isn't just sitting in their bank accounts, it's paying employees, buying goods, building products, etc. When they get wealthier because their companies are successful, to a large degree the increase in wealth is an illusion -- it's just paper. Until they cash some of it out, of course. Then it becomes real, and then we tax it. Perhaps we should be taxing it a lot harder than we are.

      There are many, many ways in which additional tax burdens on corporations percolate to the people, where "people" includes, customers, employees and shareholders. Keep in mind that ordinary middle class folks are the largest shareholders in virtually all large public businesses, via their retirement accounts, which means corporate taxes are a sneaky way to tax our supposedly tax-free retirement accounts, among other things. However it eventually works its way out to impacting individuals, it does get there, which means those individuals are paying taxes they don't even know they're paying.

      That is the core of the problem. In order for the system to work, people should know what they're paying for it. Corporate taxes are one mechanism, of many, to hide those taxes from us. That's wrong.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    27. Re:Charity vs Taxation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't they just run a bus from the train station to Google HQ then?

      No the real problem is that Google employees don't want to associate with the kind of people who take public transport.

  20. Seriously? by mschaffer · · Score: 1

    Seriously? We're talking about California. Because Google has money, they should have the right to redistribute it as they see fit.

    1. Re:Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incorrect - because <entity/person> has money that should have the right to be taxed in many interesting ways for having the indecency to try to do something using their own minds without paying dues to those too stupid/lazy/ignorant to do anything themselves.

    2. Re:Seriously? by sumdumass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly. The cure for inequality is to bring them down a bit. To hell with elevating everyone else up, it's too hard. But taking and taking and taking until they are like the rest is easy.

  21. Jim Rogers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In one of Jim Rogers' books (I think Investment Biker) he mentioned that NGOs LOVE their job because they are paid like they are back home, get a Mercedes and free living expenses and live like a king in these countries. And the further up the food chain in the NGO, even more perks.

    He made it sound like a really sweet deal and all NGOs are anything but altruistic.

    1. Re:Jim Rogers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That really depends a great deal on where you are and who you're dealing with. The pay does tend to be disproportionately high whenever you have to hire people from outside the country. I think the US is probably the exception to that. But, a large part of why those countries have to pay more is that the conditions aren't necessarily great, and anybody who wants to repatriate still has to be saving for things like retirement.

  22. Re:Poor? Let me guess by SternisheFan · · Score: 2

    You are an ignorant idiot. Stop being one.

  23. You're right! by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Should this mythical land of the free allow you to run a bus service with vehicles that are a menace to its passengers or other road users? Without proper education of it's bus drivers? Without any insurance? Would you mind if this bus service cherry-picks the profitable routes, so that companies that try to offer more balanced public transport go bankrupt?

    You're right! Let's shut down Muni! It does all those things!

  24. Not to worry by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Troll

    With the Google-driven gentrification of the Bay Area, Google expects the poor people to have been driven away thanks to rising rents before long.

    This is really a cynical move by Google. If they really wanted to do something for poor people, they'll build some dormitories for their employees to live in so people who have lived in a neighborhood all their lives, raised kids in their house and hoped to spend the rest of their lives there won't find themselves priced out of their own homes by a bunch of rich weenies moving in all around them.

    Fuck Google. I don't trust them one bit.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Not to worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They are investing in affordable housing for non-employees:

      http://www.nbcbayarea.com/blogs/press-here/Google-Invests-in-Affordable-Housing-in-Mountain-View--222628971.html

    2. Re:Not to worry by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the tried exactly that, but were stopped by legal reasons.

      --
      bickerdyke
  25. I predict by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That rich tech people will try to tip these buses over. I don't really predict this because rich people aren't spiteful like "poor" people. "Poor" in quotes because no one is truly poor in the US.

    1. Re:I predict by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Try being jobless after your unemployment benefits have run out, and not being able to even get a stinking minimum wage job because everybody who even looks at you sideways from such places judges you as so ridiculously overqualified that they don't want to spend the time training you (since they expect you will high-tail it out of there as soon as something that is more within your field comes along... an evaluation that, in the end, is actually entirely correct).

  26. Tax 'em by mbone · · Score: 1

    The appropriate response is to tax them properly. I would recommend the 65% top bracket that JFK thought was "sensible."

    1. Re:Tax 'em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Eisenhower’s 89% top bracket is more sensible.

    2. Re:Tax 'em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then I guess you don't have a problem bringing back all the different tax breaks, loopholes, numerous tax brackets that were available in JFK's time too. They were largely eliminated during the tax reform of the 1980s.

  27. Re:Poor? Let me guess by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

    The racist rant was a tipoff to the ignorance. All kinds of people in our world, not exposing yourself to different ideas breeds the ignorant ideas of hatred, superiority over others, etc... Though I may be replying to a closed off mind. In that case..., go you!

  28. Economic eviction not gentrification is the issue. by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

    Economic eviction not gentrification is the issue.

    Mostly, it's a problem for renters, who get evicted or have their rents priced out of their reach when someone buys the house/unit they are renting,

    It generally has nothing whatsoever to do with Google, other than highly paid people are capable of paying higher rents, and Google tends to pay its employees well. But if the now-priced-out-of-range rental unit were not rented by someone from Google or Twitter or Facebook, or Genentech, or Apple, or some other company, of which many are increasingly based in San Francisco, they would either be rented by someone else with more money than the previous occupants, or they would stand empty, and provide a tax write-off as a loss at the higher rental rate.

    There are in fact huge amounts of both housing and office space in SF that are currently standing empty as a tax write-off for some absurd per square foot rental cost that no one in their right mind will be willing to pay.

    Note that the vast majority of the investment driving the economic eviction in San Francisco is *not* coming from the tech industry, it is instead coming from foreign investors. Out of 6 offers I made on houses in San Francisco - houses I fully intended to live in, not merely hold as investments or use as rental properties or "flip" in the new real estate bubble - all six were bid out by over 25% at the last second by all cash offers from foreign investors.

    Very few countries allow foreign ownership of property; the U.S. is one of the few which does; Japan, China, Mexico, the Philippines, Australia, and Thailand, among others. Minnesota does not permit foreign ownership of agricultural land, period, and does not allow corporate ownership of such land, either, unless associated with an existing long-held family farm. Here's an interesting resource:

    http://www.academia.edu/106796...

    Perhaps it's time to take a page from one of these books, and apply the same restrictions on a state-wide level, rather than bitching about San Francisco in particular, since San Francisco has no legal ability to regulate foreign ownership.

    I imagine the Real Estate agents would not be terrifically happy, since most of their "big fish" clients are foreign buyers.

  29. Re:Poor? Let me guess by C0R1D4N · · Score: 1

    It said poor students, which I took to mean college students.

  30. Re:Poor? Let me guess by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

    P.S. I happen to be light skinned person of German Irish descent. I've been up and down in my life. Had good conversations with people of many descents. People are people, basically, where ever you go. I also have known many non-darker skinned people who use food stamps. They might act strangely also. It's a human condition. But if you have the need to feel you are better than others, perhaps that's your issue to deal with.

  31. Free bus passes for kids by guygo · · Score: 1

    and free eviction notices for their parents. Such a deal.

  32. "It's not nefarious when WE do it!" by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    > 'It's a last-minute PR move on their part, and they're trying to use youth unfairly to create a better brand image in the city,'

    dot dot dot said someone who doesn't realize that's exactly what their own heart-warming party does for a living when seeking power to dominate others.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  33. Thursday Was Also Grapes of Wrath Day @Google by theodp · · Score: 1

    Coincidentally, Thursday's Google Doodle was Grapes of Wrath-inspired...

    "Wherever there's a tech company not payin' enough to use city bus stops, I'll be there."
    --Tom Joad

  34. poor people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there are poor people in San Fransisco? I thought San Fransisco has a high cost of living. everyone there seems to be complaining about the expensive houses and apartments because of the tech jobs (IT, biotech) in and around the city. I thought the poor peole lived in the central valley on farms. not trying to stereotype, just asking. anyways, i learned something new.

    1. Re:poor people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They bus them in every time they need some 'grass roots' support for some social justice program.

  35. CITIES NEED TO GENTRIFY! by jsepeta · · Score: 1

    Forking idiots in SF don't understand that if a city allows crappy neighborhoods to sit without investment, they're dooming their children to shitty schools and poor emergency response from fire and police departments. It is through gentrification that cities rebuild and thus rebuild their tax base. San Francisco is a very expensive city in which to live. What they should be doing from the government's side is accepting donations from successful businesses to fund more affordable housing -- that helps businesses AND city revenues as well as the citizens whom they both serve.

    --
    Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
  36. Or do away with voice mail and per-site fees by tepples · · Score: 1

    I am a programmer, and it's easier to get a requirement clarified if I'm in the office than if I have to call the boss and wait hours for him to return my voice mail.

    I am a programmer, working on integration between my company's software and third-party software. But this third party charges per location in which its software is deployed. So I have to keep test and production under one roof.

    I am a programmer, and I take the city bus to and from work in November through the end of March (northern hemisphere). In many cases, I've found it easier to work on hobby projects on my compact laptop on the bus to and from work than at home while being compelled to listen to my roommate's loud oldies radio.

  37. And their world takeover begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google is sticking their hands in everything. Something about this makes me feel uncomfortable.

    1. Re:And their world takeover begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google is sticking their hands in everything. Something about this makes me feel uncomfortable.

      That's because"everything" includes your arse

  38. Adoption by tepples · · Score: 1

    Convince your generation that pregnancy is a bad decision, and your generation will be the last generation, ever.

    Case in point: the Shakers died out. But let me try to guess what the other AC meant: "Convince the 'less fortunate' (most of whom made bad decisions like getting knocked up before becoming economically ready to raise a child)". If you're referring to victims of sexual contact without informed consent, or people who procreated before falling on hard times, there are plenty of families looking to adopt.

  39. Hour headway by tepples · · Score: 1

    The slower a bus goes, the more potential overtime the city will have to pay and the more busses the city will need to use for a given route to maintain the same headway

    Perhaps I have trouble relating because the bus system in my home town has an hour headway.

    1. Re:Hour headway by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I have trouble relating because the bus system in my home town has an hour headway.

      Headways for popular lines in San Francisco are in the sub-ten-minute range.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
  40. Gay couples are a poor analogy by tepples · · Score: 1

    In terms of government services offered to domestic partnerships, I don't see the difference between a gay couple and any other infertile couple. But if demand for housing in a particular part of a city causes rent to rise too rapidly, wages are unlikely to rise fast enough to let tenants continue to afford their leases. So where are they supposed to live instead?

    1. Re:Gay couples are a poor analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So where are they supposed to live instead?

      Somewhere else?

      Seriously, the real problem here is that the city of San Francisco is not keeping up with demand for housing. That could be because they are not zoning land for further development, or it could be because they have extortionate regulations and fees discouraging property developers.

      I honestly think Facebook's strategy of building a town for their employees to live in makes a certain amount more sense than Google's strategy of providing convenient transportation to SF, but they are both valid recruiting strategies. The reason I think Facebook's strategy is better is because it is less disruptive to existing economic communities. Busing people from another city goes against the ethos of the internet: that we are globally connected wherever we are physically located.

  41. Bitch by tepples · · Score: 1

    The line between gay domestic partnerships and zoophile "marriage" is that gay humans can give informed consent to creating the partnership.

    That or the other anonymous commenter was just trying to find a more polite way to say bitch.

  42. Ah, the duke flinging coins from his carriage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about google supports paying more local taxes so that the local transit district can provide the services for free, and forever. A "free passes for the masses, courtesy of google" program could disappear at any time (oh, our portfolio position is a bit shakier, and we've decided to reallocate our outreach funds).

    1. Re:Ah, the duke flinging coins from his carriage by tlambert · · Score: 2

      How about google supports paying more local taxes so that the local transit district can provide the services for free, and forever.

      Local taxes would go to Mountain View, where the main Google campus is located, not San Francisco, unless they were willing to merge their transit district with that of the rest of the peninsula, which they've historically gone bat shit crazy every time it's been suggested in the last 30 years.

      Also, California prohibits city, county, and municipal income taxes, so it's not like in New York, where the city would be allowed to come yank the money out of your pocket, assuming your job was in San Francisco instead of Mountain View in the first place. Instead San Francisco collects service charges, property taxes, receives money from the state general fund, which together accounted for about 2/3rd of their $6B in revenue in the last year for which they were willing to publish numbers. Other local taxes and federal funds account for another ~$1B.

      As a side note, less than 5% of the income San Francisco collects goes to fund aid/assistance programs; 50% of it goes for personnel, with almost a third of that going to pension obligations for retired city employees. About half of one percent goes for facilities maintenance (parking garages, schools, parks, and so on).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

      Other states where a city, county, and municipal income taxes is also prohibited include Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, Texas, and West Virginia. You'd probably know this, if you actually lived in California, instead of being someone from out of state trying to tell San Francisco how it should run things with Google or the other companies running busses.

  43. Get over yourself San Fransciso by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously the reaction of San Fransciso residents is just stupid, bitter, and outright spiteful. They seem to hate actual solutions. They block the construction of luxury condos because they're mad about high housing prices. News flash: any new housing helps to lower the price, high end is no different. Wealthier workers will likely be able to move out of the cheaper apartments and into the luxury ones freeing them up for other residents, construction provides jobs that don't require education, and it shouldn't cost the city a damn thing, hell likely the opposite. They set up efficent carpool buses reducing the traffic on their roads and they protest it. You just know that they'd protest too if the tech workers actually did leave. Goddamn it San Fransciso, you need to grow up, stop tantruming and start accepting things that will fix your problem!

    1. Re:Get over yourself San Fransciso by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey neckbeard faggot. Most of those luxury homes are empty most of the year. None are primary residency. Only a motherfucking nerd wouldn't know that. Kill yourself. Now. Get your precious American gun and stick it in your mouth and pull the trigger. Do it.

  44. Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by tepples · · Score: 1

    Excelling at [currently demanded] occupations requires certain kinds of biological advantages that most people just don't have. The problem is that our society has been systematically eliminating most of the occupations where an honest, hard-working, but not-especially-bright-nor-politically-savvy person can make a decent living.

    Then perhaps we need to encourage people with those biological advantages to breed more.

    1. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Then perhaps we need to encourage people with those biological advantages to breed more.

      I know you've got Asperger's so I cut you some slack, but when you say shit like that...well I lose sympathy for you and start thinking:

      "That Tepples is nothing but an Aspie robot who will NEVER understand human interaction or feelings because he's just so literal. So he should just give up his dream and stop posting to Slashdot, he'd be better for it."

    2. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck you and your obsolete "feelings". the sooner you irrational ape fucks die off the better.

    3. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by tepples · · Score: 1

      Which emoticon should I have used? Or is this "dude, not funny" no matter how it's expressed?

    4. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by Immerman · · Score: 1

      A few problems:

      1) that wouldn't start to seriously solve the problem for dozens of generations at least, and if we still haven't tamed the excesses of capitalism a few centuries from now then we'll likely have much worse problems on our hands.

      2) Even if we could retroactively apply the "fix" dozens of generations ago, it *still* wouldn't solve the problem unless it happened that it drastically equalized intelligence across the population, rather than simply boosting the average.

      3) Even if we were able to magically boost the entire population to the exact same genius-level intelligence, it *still* wouldn't solve the problem - our society only needs so many engineers, etc. Somebody still has to pick up the trash, cook the food, run the stores, etc.

      The underlying problem is that income inequality has been getting drastically worse for decades. Intellectually we should all be able to recognize how important all those menial service jobs are to the health of our society, so why do we refuse to pay them accordingly?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    5. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      It's more of a "dude, not funny"

    6. Re:Darwin or Gattaca, let me pick by tepples · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarifying. This is not the place to discuss some Slashdot users' habit of suggesting impractical workarounds, so I made a journal entry instead.

  45. Being priced out of your apartment by tepples · · Score: 1

    The problem is that carpooling allows Google employees to increase demand for the same land that less affluent people are renting. With fairly inelastic supply of land, this causes the price of a place to live to rise sharply and beyond the means of the complaining people.

    1. Re:Being priced out of your apartment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Allow them? No cars allowed them. We've long accepted their existance. Now they can do it with personal cars or carpool/bus. The previous option would be worse for all involved.

  46. Problem solved by floodo1 · · Score: 1

    Google employees that work in Mountain View should live in/near Mountain View.

    --
    I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
  47. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very few countries allow foreign ownership of property; the U.S. is one of the few which does;

    Florida has an interesting system - foreign owners pay much higher property taxes than locals.

  48. Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does Google get the data of the people with the passes they paid for?

  49. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is idiots that make more money actually want to pay more rent than was previously charged to the previous tenants.

  50. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of places in Florida also have a locals card that gets them better prices in stores and restaurants. I thought it was funny when I got my locals card when I first moved to key west.

  51. It's a great deal for Parents AND Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As more of them are evicted - fewer passes will be needed to provide (if any). It's a win-win for Google. Yaaaaay for neckbearded faggots! The Wall Street Douchebag has a new name. The Digerati douchefags!

  52. Freak Show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google, San Francisco, the "activists".

    What a Clown Car Freak Show.

  53. you must not have a wife and kids by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Add a spouse and a couple of toddlers to your home office and see how it compares.
    You may find my book, Getting Laid for Nerds, helpful.

  54. Life imitates art by PPH · · Score: 1

    Seems to me, I've heard this plot somewhere before.

    It seems they've brought the scheme up to date by outsourcing the actual work.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  55. Use cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google should just tell San Francisco to fuck off and tell their employee's to either commute via cars or carpool to avoid all of this shit or just move closer to Mountain View.

  56. Bus Rides for the Poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Non-stop to an on-ramp in Los Angeles. And you get a "Will Work for Food" cardboard sign gratis.

  57. Supply and demand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    San Francisco's problem is that it is (almost completely) developed. It is surrounded by water on three sides and long-established suburbs on the fourth side. People don't want to redevelop old houses into new high-rises because it would destroy the 'character' of the city. San Francisco is desirable because of its unique urban character. A few other cities have become 'successes' with highly-desirable, dense and expensive central neighborhoods (Boston, New York). There is obviously some demand for this lifestyle- so why aren't we seeing more urban developments in other places? One reason might be that suburbs are so entrenched in the culture of the rest of America that is impossible to find the land and capital to make a large enough urban development. What if San Jose had more desirable, urban areas? I'm sure a portion of the SF dwelling population would move.

  58. There should be a free bus that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    randomly gasses everyone a few times a year and dumps the corpses in the bay.

  59. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by khallow · · Score: 1

    Perhaps it's time to take a page from one of these books, and apply the same restrictions on a state-wide level, rather than bitching about San Francisco in particular, since San Francisco has no legal ability to regulate foreign ownership.

    Bigotry is so interesting. Here, we go from a bunch of people wanting cheap rent to foreigners bad without any logical connection between the two.

    Out of 6 offers I made on houses in San Francisco - houses I fully intended to live in, not merely hold as investments or use as rental properties or "flip" in the new real estate bubble - all six were bid out by over 25% at the last second by all cash offers from foreign investors.

    Was the property at that 25% premium still a good investment? If so, then perhaps you should bid more next time or snipe those auctions just like the pros did. If not, then a foreign investor just donated to the US economy. Send him a thank you letter.

  60. Progressives always resort to violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reality is that progressives always react violently when you openly oppose them.

    Always.

  61. Re:I don't get it. -- so what happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    which viewpoint prevailed (if any)?

    oddly, my A.C. CAPTCHA is 'miseries'

  62. Baloney! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can a 'Googlized' Bus Driver determine if the 'kid' entering is 'Section 8 or Below'? Answer: NOT.

    Seems all PR Madness as now.

    Google PR blows SHIT on this one!

    Hay! An Idea! Let's phone Vladimir Putin to unleash a thermonuclear strike on Google Compound "Wolfenstine."

    Yea! Counter move! Check Mate! Obama is too stupid and too high sucking his beloved bong!

    We win!
     

  63. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Perhaps it's time to take a page from one of these books, and apply the same restrictions on a state-wide level, rather than bitching about San Francisco in particular, since San Francisco has no legal ability to regulate foreign ownership.

    Bigotry is so interesting. Here, we go from a bunch of people wanting cheap rent to foreigners bad without any logical connection between the two.

    You reordered the sentence to put the conclusion before the supporting evidence, so of course it sounds bigoted; that was pretty clearly your intent, when you went out of your way to edit the markup language so you could take those sentences out of order.

    Out of 6 offers I made on houses in San Francisco - houses I fully intended to live in, not merely hold as investments or use as rental properties or "flip" in the new real estate bubble - all six were bid out by over 25% at the last second by all cash offers from foreign investors.

    Was the property at that 25% premium still a good investment? If so, then perhaps you should bid more next time or snipe those auctions just like the pros did. If not, then a foreign investor just donated to the US economy. Send him a thank you letter.

    Was it worth another 25%, and the extra effort to make an all-cash offer? It depends... there are three dfferent ways of looking at the word "investment" in this context:

    (1) As a place to live... definitely "no"; the house was priced about market value to begin with, and all the bids were coming in close to that by 1-2%; certainly nothing close to a 25% premium, until the last minute.

    (2) As a property intended to be held for ~5 years to appreciate, and then flipped as an actual investment property? It's very iffy. It depends on whether you believe that the current speculation bubble in San Francisco is the result of an actual depressed valuation, or whether you believe it's being driven by external influences (as I do). Certainly, we are not seeing an upswing in actual owner occupied homes, which means that it is in fact an investment bubble. If you believe the bubble will last that long, then yes.

    (3) As a foreign investor using a purchase in excess of $500,000 to qualify under the EB-5 Immigrant Investor program as a fast track means of getting a green card? Clearly, it's a great investment. It's half the cost of the in excess of $1,000,000 that they'd have to invest otherwise. See http://www.uscis.gov/i-526 "U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services form I-526, Immigrant Petition by Alien Entrepreneur".

    As the CNN article says, four states accounted for 58% of all foreign sales: 23% Florida, 17% California, 9% Arizona, 9% Texas. See the CNN article here: http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/0... It's interesting that these are also the states with currently accelerating "recovery" in the real estate market.

  64. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by khallow · · Score: 1

    While that is an interesting theory and one sufficiently worthy that I regret to some degree insulting you, San Francisco isn't part of a "targeted employment area" (or TEA) so it doesn't get the half off. The green card would have to put in at least $1 million in theory. Similarly, Florida only has one such TEA.

    Having said that, there's other ways to make that work. For example, the EB-5 visa holders could be flipping houses between fellow EB-5 holders. Say acquire a million dollar loan through a handling entity which is used to buy real estate from another EB-5 holder (at 25% over market rate and auction snipe at last minute, that would keep the risk of losing the home down to pretty much nil). Then on your EB-5 visa application mention the assets, but not the loan (which might not count legally due to it being in another country).

    Presto! A million dollar or so qualification for the visa. Then you sell the asset to the next person in line and pay off your loan. The costs to the EB-5 holder end up being a small amount of interest, the handling charges for the entity managing the whole charade, transaction costs of the actual real estate sales, and the $1500 application fee for the EB-5 visa.

    Here's the thing. Because the actual costs proportion to the real estate are probably near negligible (it gets flipped to the next EB-5 applicant), there's no serious reason to "save" half a million dollars by targeting a TEA.

    At that point, the ideal markets are places with high real estate prices and some vacant real estate at that level available for the flip, requiring less transactions. For example, San Francisco could require one to three real estate transactions, while Modesto might require half a dozen.

    So yes, this sort of activity could be driving the market or conversely, this sort of activity could be attracted to unusually high volume, high price markets because that is more efficient.

    But then we get to your recommended solution. Why would it be a good idea to ban foreign ownership of US real estate? That remains a non sequitur. Even if we are truly seeing yet another immigration policy gimmick pumping up the price of real estate in San Francisco, the solution would be to fix or eliminate the policy not screw with ownership of property.

  65. Re:Stop the emotion, use Grammar next time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is the study sheet for THIRD GRADERS on how to use ITS and IT"S correctly. Study it, learn it, live it.

    http://www.jumpstart.com/commo...

  66. force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    welfare is forced charity
    use of force is generally evil unless justifiable from first principles

    (not that there aren't genuine probems either way atm)

  67. Re:I don't get it. -- so what happened? by cduffy · · Score: 1

    which viewpoint prevailed (if any)?

    Nobody won -- the developer is holding the property, which remains zoned industrial, until market conditions (financing availability) and political considerations give them more leeway in its use.

  68. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by phorm · · Score: 1

    Very few countries allow foreign ownership of property; the U.S. is one of the few which does; Japan, China, Mexico, the Philippines, Australia, and Thailand, among others

    Canada, as well, which is causing similar issues with property costs in the areas of Vancouver and various other large cities.

  69. Re:Economic eviction not gentrification is the iss by tlambert · · Score: 1

    San Francisco isn't part of a "targeted employment area" (or TEA) so it doesn't get the half off. The green card would have to put in at least $1 million in theory. Similarly, Florida only has one such TEA.

    The easiest way to deal with this would be to buy the property in one of the TEAs (and yes, SF has large swaths of them). That's pretty trivial; here are the California TEAs: http://www.hcd.ca.gov/fa/ez/en... and here is the map of TEAs (Enterprise zones) that qualify under the EB-5 program in San Francisco: http://www.hcd.ca.gov/fa/ez/pd...

    [...]So yes, this sort of activity could be driving the market or conversely, this sort of activity could be attracted to unusually high volume, high price markets because that is more efficient.

    Well, there are 10,000 EB-5 program slots available per year, and if we apportion EB-5 activity proportionally to percentage of foreign property purchases, then that's 1,700 home purchases a year (this is being very generous).

    Assuming we ignore the $500,000 end run around the problem by investing in a real estate holding company in a TEA, rather than directly in real estate, and those purchases are all in the $1,000,000+ range, then there is a huge incentive to push equity values above the $1,000,000 mark - just barely - when they would be closer to the $800,000 mark. This both guarantees you a winning bid (the +25% I mentioned earlier), and it pushes up the median prices by a like amount.

    Unfortunately, this is a cascade effect - as anyone who listens to the radio in the Bay Area can tell you, there are huge numbers of companies trying to sell you "How to flip property in the Bay Area" seminars, books, software, kits, and so on. As the median price goes up for a reason other than an actual increase in value, the available real estate is additionally squeezed by this "band wagon" effect.

    But then we get to your recommended solution. Why would it be a good idea to ban foreign ownership of US real estate? That remains a non sequitur. Even if we are truly seeing yet another immigration policy gimmick pumping up the price of real estate in San Francisco, the solution would be to fix or eliminate the policy not screw with ownership of property.

    This would be perhaps a good way to deal with the immigration policy "gimmick", but unfortunately that gimmick is there as a matter of economic and immigration policy (a policy I'd probably agree with you is bigoted, due to it's emergent properties, assuming they're intentional). The purpose of the policy is to stem a tide of immigration by making a carrot available, and putting the carrot mostly out of reach of the average person in the countries people would like to leave in order to come to the U.S.. It's there so that we can point at it and say "look, if you don't want to wait, you can always buy yourself to the head of the line instead".

    So in answer, I have about as much hope of that particular loophole being closed as I do seeing government switch from giving tax breaks to giving grants so that they have to account for the money changing hands through political cronyism, instead of hiding it in some obscure part of the tax code.

    As Minnesota has demonstrated with their agricultural land purchase policies, it's within the boundaries of states rights to prevent foreign purchase of real estate, without running afoul of the Constitution's Article I Section 8 Commerce Clause, and so it's addressable at a state level. Obviously, if you have a huge project that's not going to get funded without someone like an Adnan Khashoggi footing the bill, you can either take that up at a legislative level to grant an exception.

    But more likely, what will happen i