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Computer Science Enrollments Rocketed Last Year, Up 22%

Posted by timothy on from the you-might-need-some-education dept.

alphadogg writes "A sneak peek at the annual Computing Research Association's (CRA) report on computer science enrollments at colleges shows that strong demand for technically-savvy workers is luring students in a big way. The full 2013 Taulbee Report will be published in May, but the CRA revealed a few tidbits this week in its Computer Research News publication. Among the findings: Among 123 departments responding last year and the year before, there was a 22% increase in enrollment for computer science bachelor's degree programs at U.S. schools. Degrees awarded increased 0.9% and new enrollments rose 13.7%"

137 comments

  1. CS is not IT / system admin by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

    1. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Are there even any "real skills" fields left with a decent job market these days? Seems like I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    2. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Seems like I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

      Which medical fields? How many unemployed doctors do you know? Their union does a good job of restricting supply.

    3. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      I hear complaints from every field these days about not enough jobs for graduates, even in the medical fields.

      Not according to companies. If you listen to them, there isn't anyone who's qualified for their positions which is why they have a worker shortage.

      Witness this article which claims employers are whining they can't find enough people to fill these ten positions which include the medical field.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    4. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

      How about foreign languages? A working knowledge of Telugu and Kannada are probably the most useful qualifications these days for any work related to computers.

    5. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Nursing for one. It used to be that you could graduate with a BS in nursing, basically throw a dart at a map, and find 2-3 hospitals/doctors in that random town willing to fight over you. From what I understand, that is no longer the case, and a lot of nurses (particularly new graduates) are actually having to work to find a job these days. Article about it here.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    6. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by jaymz666 · · Score: 1

      The real problem is they can't find qualified people to work the hours they want them to work for a paltry income.

    7. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Not according to companies. If you listen to them, there isn't anyone who's qualified for their positions which is why they have a worker shortage.

      They mean a shortage of H-1B visa workers.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    8. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by jaymz666 · · Score: 2

      Do they speak English or French in Kannada?

    9. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medical Schools are overcrowded and reject students because of not enough seats in the classroom

    10. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

      Then go back once you realize that no one wants to hire you if you don't have a Bachelor's Degree.

      See, I took that route - instead of 'wasting time' on a four year degree, I jumped into the industry with both feet, spending the last decade gaining experience, learning to work on production systems that students only hear about, and recent CS grads only know in theory.

      Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

      In the 20th Century, you could get by on experience alone. Here in the 21st, it seems that all employers care about is that little piece of paper.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    11. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Funny

      HR departments are the bane of modern business.

      "Sorry, sir, but we just don't feel that you're qualified for this entry-level programming position"
      "But I'm Bill Gates!"
      "Yes, and your application clearly shows that you dropped out of college before obtaining your Bachelor's Degree..."
      "But I'm *Bill Gates*!"
      "Sorry sir, please apply again when you have the required degree..."

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    12. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      Software development pays well, and demand is high, but it sucks to break into the field. It's the one dependable career though: every job that can be automated will (and should) be automated, but someone needs to write that automation.

      There's no degree any more where someone will hand you a job just for graduating. Welcome to the adult world, where you won't be handed anything. Pick a field where there's high demand and most people can't do the work well, and you'll be fine in the long run.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 1

      I feel there is some good news in there.

      Thanks to Big Data awareness (there is potential there even if we factor in all the hype), the focus of the curriculum in many CS schools will shift more towards math and algorithms (for databases, system resource considerations, etc. -- core math/science and engineering), instead of "pure IT" or "software/computer use" [e.g. teaching html markups, office suites, configuring networks, basic sysadmin, etc.]

      Or, may be I am in my own bubble and we are going to see degree programs that are named "computer science" and focus on HTML5, web app development, game development, etc. In which case, the wheels on the bus go round and round...
       

    14. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to do job interviews for programmers. The pay was fine and the employer offered good work conditions. No spectacular perks, but solid benefits like good health insurance, and developers worked 40 hours a week.

      We could not find qualified developers for the world. Somehow they had actually managed to hire a pretty competent team over the years, but every candidate I interviewed for open positions was worthless. We regularly got candidates for a database-driven-Java position who couldn't explain database indexes or inheritance.

    15. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by sandytaru · · Score: 2

      It's not restricted at the "union" level - it's restricted at the school level. The local vet school, for example, strictly caps enrollment at 100 new students a year, with another 200 or so continuing on in specialty fields. So they have roughly 600 students enrolled maximum. This is because veterinary medicine is a slow growth field, and they want to produce enough students to replace retiring vets and match growth without flooding the market, lowering wages, and making people with $200K in student loans unemployed.

      There is a dire shortage of doctors in certain fields, so medical schools who handle those specialty fields (e.g. geriatrics - old people are not glamorous) are increasing enrollment cautiously.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    16. Re: CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More particularly, consider law. No such thing as an unemployed Bar Association member unless in a glut city like NYC or LA.

      No point in bothering with CS. Most businesses can pay $16,000 a year for a H-1B with a CCIE, MCSE, CISSP, or RHCA, and years of experience in IT.

      CS is like textiles or meat packing. Was a sustainable field, now is something that is not a place one can earn an income in the US. India and China have the advantage that their citizens have no student loan debt, as their governments pay for the colleges. This allows them to work in the US for pennies.

      For US people, law, business, or accounting are where pay checks lie.

    17. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 1

      Telugu person with a Kannada speaking spouse here...

      Unless people are talking with their own friends that speak the same language at home about personal stuff (or they are bad-mouthing or saying "good but inappropriate" things), may people speak English. For almost all things computer related, I don't know of anyone that uses native language words.

      This sort of venting definitely needs a native-language "MASK":
      "This MASK(native-language based identifier of the colleague -- like tall guy, fat guy, etc) is a MASK(major league body cavity and x-ref to his mother), so MASK(be very careful)."

    18. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nursing for one. It used to be that you could graduate with a BS in nursing, basically throw a dart at a map, and find 2-3 hospitals/doctors in that random town willing to fight over you. From what I understand, that is no longer the case, and a lot of nurses (particularly new graduates) are actually having to work to find a job these days. Article about it here.

      Blame the bean counting MBAs running the hospitals and focusing solely on the bottom line - profit over patient care. If you've been to a hospital during the past five years you've seen the results of nursing shortages. In the case of most fields the employers demand experience so new graduates or recent graduates need not apply. Hell even highly experienced people cannot get an interview these days in many fields. At least nursing is a quasi-professional role whereas anything in IT/CS is basically a laundry list of constantly changing products and version numbers instead of asking for skills.

    19. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      get out now and go somewhere with real skills before your loans get to high.

      Then go back once you realize that no one wants to hire you if you don't have a Bachelor's Degree.

      See, I took that route - instead of 'wasting time' on a four year degree, I jumped into the industry with both feet, spending the last decade gaining experience, learning to work on production systems that students only hear about, and recent CS grads only know in theory.

      Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

      In the 20th Century, you could get by on experience alone. Here in the 21st, it seems that all employers care about is that little piece of paper.

      I also fell for that. And that is why I ended up going back to school several years ago and got my bachelors degree (though in engineering, I was so sick of IT by then.) Even before the recession nobody wanted anyone without a degree, you had to know someone high up in the company to get past the HR filter on that one. If only I had stuck to college in the first place, I'd have been a senior engineer already now rather than a junior in his 30's.

    20. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want Java developers, try fishing around at college towns. A couple fliers and you can have some very skilled (although not certified) programmers at your beck and call at entry level wages, and who may not have the resume, but are more than willing to learn and fall into line, since Java programming beats flipping burgers or going every few days to the plasma donation center for a couple bucks.

      If you need experienced people, post your reqs on Monster and other sites. If your pay/bennies are anywhere near competitive, you will get them. If not, you can always play the H-1B lotto.

      There is no shortage of programmers. You just have to know where to look.

    21. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by FearTheDonut · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Former nurse turned programmer here. Nursing demand has always been cyclical. Or, at least since the 90's when I went to nursing school. It starts with a huge demand for nurses. Lots of people jump into the field, getting ADNs, LPNs, and sometimes higher degrees. Within a few years, the demand is met and there is a glut of nurses on the market. Eventually, those people who got into nursing because they wanted a (relatively) high-paying job with decent benefits see all the crap (figuratively and literally) you have to deal with. Combined with a typically hostile workplace, many relatively new nurses end up leaving the field. The cycle repeats. I mention hostile workplace because nursing is well known for being one of the few professions out there that still "eats their young." All that to say: give it time. They'll be another shortage within 3-4 years.

    22. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      native-language based identifier of the colleague

      I'm not talking about colleagues.

    23. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by mlts · · Score: 2

      CS/IT is about an oxymoron:

      You need to specialize in something so that you have a skill not the average person coming from the degree mills possesses.

      BUT you also have to not specialize so much that if/when that skill becomes not needed, one is hosed, be it COBOL, C++ programming, Java clientside applets, etc.

      For example, certifications. It is good to have some in several different items because I've found that in previous jobs I've had, auditors will go through the server room, demand certification IDs from staff, and if they are expired (or don't exist), said worker is fired on the spot for "failing to have the authority to operate the device."

      This is a tough balance. Error on the jack of all trades, your resume gets tossed. Too far the other way, you end up too specialized and if your specialty goes out the door, you are hosed until you can retool (on your own dime).

    24. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I know. My wife is a nursing grad who can't find a job for anything. When she started the program, it was pretty easy to get a job. By the time she graduated it was just the opposite. And it's not just her. She's kept in touch with classmates and they all say the same thing. It does seem to depend on were you are in the country though. Frustratingly, she regularly gets job offers from various other states.

    25. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Blame the bean counting MBAs running the hospitals and focusing solely on the bottom line - profit over patient care.

      Yup, patient to nurse ratio is much higher than it used to be, or than it is in other countries. If you go through the numbers, you'll find that nurses are but a tiny part of the utterly obscene hospital bills you get these days. Of course the MBA's pinch pennies on the people who actually provide patient care, and lavish salaries on "administrators" like themselves.

    26. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      So why aren't there more or larger medical schools? "Overcrowding" does a great job of restricting the supply of doctors. The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical schools, is mostly run by the AMA.

    27. Re: CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More particularly, consider law. No such thing as an unemployed Bar Association member unless in a glut city like NYC or LA.

      Huh? What country are you living in? I must have a dozen friends who are lawyers and dropped out to do something else. There's a glut of lawyers coming out of law schools. If you're not a top grad from a highly respected school, don't expect to get a decent gig-- in fact, don't expect to get any gig unless you expend some serious hustle. If you are a top grad from a highly respected school-- you can still expect to be treated like a peon, and put in long hours doing scutwork, before you move up the ladder.

    28. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      It's not restricted at the "union" level - it's restricted at the school level.

      There is no difference. As I pointed out above, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical schools, is mostly run by the AMA.

      The local vet school, for example, strictly caps enrollment ... because veterinary medicine is a slow growth field, and they want to produce enough students to replace retiring vets and match growth without flooding the market, lowering wages, and making people with $200K in student loans unemployed.

      I didn't realize vets have a good union too. In other areas of higher education, from computer science to medieval art history, schools will happily accommodate as many customers (oops, I mean students) as they can, enlarging departments to meet demand, and do it without any regard to the job prospects of their graduates. Curiously MD's, and as you say DVM's, work differently.

    29. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      It's the one dependable career though: every job that can be automated will (and should) be automated, but someone needs to write that automation.

      "Dependable career" is a nice theory - shame it isn't corroborated by reality.

    30. Re: CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most businesses can pay $16,000 a year for a H-1B with a CCIE, MCSE, CISSP, or RHCA, and years of experience in IT.

      At our start-up, which is located in an area with a low to moderate cost of living, we pay S.B. EE/CS- and Sc.M. EE/CS-holding software and systems engineers around $115,000/year to $150,000/year. For our IT workers, many of whom have an S.B. CS, we pay around $75,000/year to $110,000/year. Given that we pay incredibly well for the area, we're more than able to attract some great talent and continuously pull down new contracts. I can't even begin to imagine how terrible the situation would be if we hired typical H-1B visa holders.

    31. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      give it time. They'll be another shortage within 3-4 years

      The problem is that if you've recently graduated from nursing school, like my wife, when the next shortage rolls around, you'll get rejected because you're no longer a recent grad and you have little to no work experience.

    32. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      All smart colleges and universities do that. My master's cohort had 20 people in it. Could they have taken more? Probably, if they didn't require a fairly high GRE and didn't want to maintain their 3-month-average job placement. It also ensures they only enroll the brightest folks - although some of the doctors out there make me question that.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    33. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1
      What about relocating to Switzerland? I've read a year or two ago that the Swiss will practically rip your arms of as they will be trying to pull you in, they're basically importing something like 90% of medical personel from Eastern Europe.

      Frustratingly, she regularly gets job offers from various other states.

      Oh. So I take that the relocation option is out?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    34. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by afidel · · Score: 1

      She should get her NP, I can't see anytime in the foreseeable future where NP's won't be in high demand. With a push towards more universal coverage and no significant uptick in doctors choosing to become GP's a LOT of primary care is going to be performed by NP's.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    35. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Article about it here.

      Dueling citations! Here's one from the same time frame that claims the exact opposite: Nursing Grads Have Lowest Unemployment Rate.

    36. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by FearTheDonut · · Score: 1

      My advice to her would be get some sort of a job either for a temp agency (which often has turnover and often is more relaxed in hiring practices, better or worse) or as a last resort, work as a nursing assistant (which is what I did). While your brain-dependent nursing skills might atrophy, your hands-on skills stay sharp and hospitals DO look for that. That will give you her an edge over the newer candidates both with staying in the field and not being shy around handling her patient's ADLs.

    37. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you mean "eats their young"? You mean the older people are mean to the newer people? If so, that seems like it could be true almost anywhere. Either way, congrats on mastering two professions, nursing and programming.

    38. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For example, certifications. It is good to have some in several different items because I've found that in previous jobs I've had, auditors will go through the server room, demand certification IDs from staff, and if they are expired (or don't exist), said worker is fired on the spot for "failing to have the authority to operate the device."

      Wait what?

      I think your company's auditors are either morons or there's a couple levels of misdirection here and the employees were really being fired for something else.

    39. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I also fell for that. And that is why I ended up going back to school several years ago and got my bachelors degree (though in engineering, I was so sick of IT by then.) Even before the recession nobody wanted anyone without a degree, you had to know someone high up in the company to get past the HR filter on that one. If only I had stuck to college in the first place, I'd have been a senior engineer already now rather than a junior in his 30's.

      Do you really believe that?

      I have news for you, having a degree doesn't change the fact that the high paying senior engineer job at the well respected company requires knowing someone higher up.

      What it does mean is if someone identical to yourself applies cold to the job, they'll be considered first. Since this only matters in the jobs that suck (as to get in the well respected companies you either have to find a position where the company is desperate--which means they don't care what warm body they get--or you have to know the right people) the difference is minimal.

      All this is assuming you have the years of experience it takes to get there.

      Source: My cabal of IT friends, none of whom have a degree, but have all worked for major companies.

    40. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -1 snowflake

    41. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      20+ years says you're wrong. I've never had a dependable job - it's not the 1950s any more - but I've had a perfectly dependable career. I stay on top of changes in tools and technology, don't get stuck in a niche, and see strong demand for my skills. When I want or need to change jobs, I just start responding to the recruiters contacting me.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    42. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Sometimes there is a shortage. If you need for someone who's written accounting systems, device drivers and console games, on mainframes, smartphones and toasters, with 5 years experience in something that's only existed for 3, who plays the piano and is a Taurus or Aries they're a bit thin on the ground.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    43. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

      My experience is completely the opposite. Do you work for the government or something? Do you actually self-filter when the requirements say "BA required, MS preferred"?

      Past my (crappy) first job, no one has ever cared. Wait, I take that back: there was one team at Google that didn't want to interview me once (but Google recruiters for other teams still pester me often). So once in 20 years someone cared.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    44. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by FearTheDonut · · Score: 1

      Mean is an understatement, but yes. I've experienced it, along with practically everyone I've talked with from my previous profession. .Some examples I was told to me would absolutely floor you. I wish I could be more specific, but it's hearsay... But I believe them. Take that for what it is. And this was almost 20 years ago. Thanks for the compliment, too.

    45. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      She should get her NP

      She'd love to, bet there's an issue: $$$
      We both agree that it's a bad idea to get into debt up to our eyeballs, and because we have kids there is limited cash available.

    46. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Forget Switzerland - there are plenty of nursing jobs in North Dakota. Seriously, it's because of the oil boom, and she's gotten job offers from there, complete with signing bonus and paying relo costs.

    47. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      She has gotten some work from temp agencies, but even that has gotten sparse. Thanks for the NA idea though, even if it pays little it'd be worth it to keep her patient skills more up-to-date.

    48. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Yet I can't seem to get out of low-pay, entry level positions; why? Because I don't have a Bachelor's degree.

      My experience is completely the opposite. Do you work for the government or something?

      Not anymore - ironically, that was the one decent job that didn't require a Bachelor's, they were happy with an Associates in an unrelated field (matter-o-fact, that's how I got into IT to begin with).

      Do you actually self-filter when the requirements say "BA required, MS preferred"?

      Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Are you saying I should send in my CV anyway, even if I don't meet the qualifications? Haven't had much luck taking that route in the past... at least, not in situations where my CV hitting the desk of some HR dweeb is the first contact I make with the company.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    49. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by FearTheDonut · · Score: 1

      I feel for you guys. It was tough for me. I had to move to North Carolina from the mid-atlantic in order to find work. But I got some experience and came back a year later and found employment quickly. Sincerely, best of luck to you all.

    50. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      I've only once been hired anywhere as a result of sending my resume directly to a company (well, a recruiter as it happened, so no HR dweeb). But yeah, that time there were degree requirements that I ignored. What a hiring manager wants is some evidence that you can solve the problem he has. Do you have enough relevant technical experience that it's worth phone-screening you? Those are the requirements that matter, not the boilerplate stuff.

      Since LinkedIn emerged, keeping my resume up-to-date there has been enough for recruiters to reach out to me (sorry Dice, but you never managed that). In the US, the software jobs are fairly concentrated in a few cities (not sure where you are, but if you're using a "CV" and not a terse resume in the US, that's your problem). If you don't live in one of them, that could be your problem.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    51. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      20+ years says you're wrong.

      30+ years says you're overconfident. I've stayed in the field, was once out of work for 6 months, but other than that my longest unemployment was 3 days. It definitely helps to stay up-to-date, and just do a plain old-fashioned good job. However, I've known people who were at least as good and as up-to-date as me, but after being out of work for a long time (filled in with a few burger jobs and stuff) had to switch to another, often less lucrative career. There is a lot of luck involved, though some people don't like to believe that. I'd guess you're about half way to retirement. I sincerely wish you luck, but remember that the second half of the way to retirement can be a lot harder.

    52. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Thanks.

    53. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I've only once been hired anywhere as a result of sending my resume directly to a company (well, a recruiter as it happened, so no HR dweeb). But yeah, that time there were degree requirements that I ignored. What a hiring manager wants is some evidence that you can solve the problem he has. Do you have enough relevant technical experience that it's worth phone-screening you? Those are the requirements that matter, not the boilerplate stuff.

      Sounds like maybe I'm applying in the wrong places...

      Since LinkedIn emerged, keeping my resume up-to-date there has been enough for recruiters to reach out to me (sorry Dice, but you never managed that). In the US, the software jobs are fairly concentrated in a few cities (not sure where you are, but if you're using a "CV" and not a terse resume in the US, that's your problem). If you don't live in one of them, that could be your problem.

      Ah, well, that could be part of it - I don't keep my LinkedIn profile updated. Of course, I'm not a "software guy" so much as a hacker-admin, so the concentration of good coding jobs in other cities isn't too big a deal for me.

      As for the CV, I wasn't having a lot of luck with the traditional, American resume format, so I decided to try the CV just for kicks... honestly, it doesn't seem to be harming or helping, as my callback volume hasn't changed. Personally, I prefer the CV, as it's a lot nicer to look at, and gives the person reading it just enough info to have them wanting to know more. At least, I think it does that, though experience dictates a slightly different outlook...

      Meh, I'll find something good, well-paying, that makes me happy, one of these days. Just gotta keep them boots on the ground. Thanks for the advice and pleasant conversation, much obliged.

      Also... if you know anyone on the Ozark Plateau looking for a good sysadmin/jack-of-all-trades...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    54. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      give it time. They'll be another shortage within 3-4 years

      The problem is that if you've recently graduated from nursing school, like my wife, when the next shortage rolls around, you'll get rejected because you're no longer a recent grad and you have little to no work experience.

      Also happened to a lot of engineering grads who had the bad luck to come out of school at the bottom of the recession. A few years later when I was graduating I knew some who still hadn't found a job in their chosen field and now had to compete with us as well who would be seen as more "fresh".

    55. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      My master's cohort had 20 people in it.

      I can't comment on your anecdote, since I've no idea what your cohort was, how many professors were involved, etc. Overall though the US graduates about 2x as many STEM people as the job market can absorb. I can't imagine how large the factor is for philosophy and medieval art history majors. Universities are businesses, and like all businesses they want more customers. That they're not-for-profit is immaterial. They don't care what you do with their product, so long as you buy it. It's more than a little suspicious that MD's are an exception, when the accreditation is run by their union.

    56. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LinkedIn might get you a job but I still cant understand why anyone with a lick of sense would put where they work, college history, basically your life story out there for someone to pickup your identity. Sure in FaceBook people do that shit but you have no controls on LinkedIn and it become internet information.

    57. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, it's helps if you don't admit to "more" than 20+. :) Technically accurate, but gives less fodder for age-based hiring discrimination.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    58. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by lgw · · Score: 1

      As long as no one needs to read past the first page to discover that they want to call you, the rest probably doesn't matter. A resume gets about 30 seconds of attention - just make sure the graphic design of page 1 points attention at a couple of bullet points that say "I did X", where X is relevant and important. Or at least that's the best advice I can give.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    59. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not a matter of specific skills or experience. In my last job, which lasted four years, I did a ton of interviewing. We wrote server side code in Java but for most job openings we didn't have any requirements. If the candidate could code reasonably well in Java, C++, C#, or anything really, we were happy. They could learn Java and the rest on the job.

      The thing is, 9 out of 10 people failed basic questions right out of the gate. I kid you not when I tell you I had people unable to do a simple for loop. Writing a function that turns the string representation of an int into the actual int value ("1234" -> 1234) without using String.valueOf(String) was well beyond most interviewees' abilities. It literally takes dozens of interviews to find one candidate.And the worst part is, you can't tell the good ones apart from the bad ones from their resumes. I have interviewed countless people with a BS in Computer Science, that were currently employed at a respected company (banks, manufacturers, software publishers) who could not code a bubble sort if their lives depended on it. How they got their diploma or their job, I have no idea.

    60. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by FirephoxRising · · Score: 1

      This. They want workers to take crap hours, conditions and pay. When local workers wont do it, they import from overseas and they can treat them even worse. I have no problem with importing workers if really needed. If they got rid of the H1Bs' poor pay and conditions and made it that the imports got normal local pay and conditions, then the "shortage" would magically disappear as they only like H1Bs as they're cheap and disposable.

    61. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by volmtech · · Score: 1

      My 26 year old nephew graduated an Electrical Engineering degree. He specialized in computer board layout. He spent four years working with his grandfather running an ocean going tug business before starting school. After graduation last spring he went back to the shipyard. He was installing the electronics and sensors needed for the new main engines being installed in a tug. The experience installing sensors was a plus in him getting hired to install and maintain sensors for a gas pipeline. $20000 moving allowance and one year rent paid apartment with the promise of six figure salary after a year.

      Mt son manages a law department that finalizes purchase contracts for natural gas co-generation units. Right now there is good money in natural gas.

    62. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by CDPS · · Score: 1

      Sounds like someone couldn't hack the math/theory aspect of CS so decided that the things he was able to do were the only ones with "real" value. Fairly common for students that don't have the mental skills to master CS. I have known lots of such people.

    63. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Fairly common for students that don't have the mental skills to master CS. I have known lots of such people.

      It's arguably worse when you have someone with that mastery but little or no work experience to back it up. They're too smart to realize that they know nothing and too proud to ask for help. I know because I was that kid once and only now, looking back, do I fully appreciate how green I really was. If I could go back and give my younger self one piece of advice it would be this: do not be so proud that you overlook the experience of another, even one whom you consider less capable than yourself, because a career in this business is far too short to learn everything by repeating the mistakes of those who went before you, many of whom were no doubt smarter than you.

    64. Re:CS is not IT / system admin by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      In the 20th Century, you could get by on experience alone. Here in the 21st, it seems that all employers care about is that little piece of paper.

      It's a shame considering that, as usual, a decentralized approach would be far superior. We should abolish final exams, and institute entrance exams for jobs. That way how you come by the knowledge required to perform your job doesn't matter. Unfortunately, this wouldn't help the rich get any richer; Quite the opposite actually. Thus, I don't delude myself; As history has shown, what's best for society is rarely willingly adopted by it.

  2. Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K starting. That's the equiv of $36K in 1997. Inflation is a bitch.

    1. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by NotDrWho · · Score: 0

      Everyone's a comedian these days.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    2. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why? My starting job in 1997 was 36K which was modest in the dot boom. Some were starting at 50-80K back then. Inflation is the hidden wage killer.

      http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

      If you aren't calculating for inflation, you are getting screwed.

    3. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      You said it yourself: that was in the middle of the dot-com boom. There was also a different kind of inflation going on then, and expecting that money to start (or it's equivalent in today-dollars) is ridiculous.

    4. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why is it ridiculous? Is there not enough demand? Supply too great?

      I said it was modest during the dot boom, the high salaries were 80K+. 50K is a more than fair starting salary for a programmer today.

      >Expecting that money to start (or it's equivalent in today-dollars) is ridiculous.

      I expect the next sentence to be, "I can't find any good programmers."

    5. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My starting coding job paid $18k. And that was awesome, because it was a real, full-time coding job.

      Your apprenticeship will likely not pay well. That's fine, it's just for a couple of years.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    6. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Funny. $53k was my exact starting salary 15+ years ago straight out of college.
      Two years ago I was the hiring manager for a dev position and offered $90k to a recent college graduate with less than a year of contracting experience (I would have offered less but HR told me that was what the market dictated, and they're not known to spend money just for the fun of it).
      When I see people on ./ claiming they make under $50k, I have to believe they're either making it up or living in a super low cost area.

    7. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but $9 an hour is not a "real, full-time coding job." You got exploited because you were desperate. I'm sure it was fun and you learned a lot, but your employer totally shafted you financially.

    8. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The totally sad thing, is people are arguing with me that they deserve to get paid less. WTF, I thought programmers were smart.

      PS: 53K 15 years ago, you lucky dog!

    9. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      When it's your first day of your first job out of college, odds are strongly in favor of your not being a good programmer.

    10. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's pretty negative. I think you mean experienced programmer, not a good programmer.

      You go ahead and continue to pay shit wages for programmers, and I'll continue to warn programmers not to take shit wages.

    11. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When I see people on ./ "

      "on ./"

      "./"

      "dotslash"

      Dotslash!?! LEAVE. LEAVE AND NEVER RETURN.

    12. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Muscle memory. Given that I spend waaaaaay more time working than posting here, I also type the character sequence "./" way more often than "/."

      Things might be different for you. In that case you're probably in the sub-$50k category as well.

    13. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zing!

    14. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K starting.

      According to prevailing wage for an H1B person, the fresh graduated person would get his/her salary at $56,597/year in New York, NY [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... ], $42,806/year in Boise, ID [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... ], and $72,613/year in San Francisco, CA [ http://www.flcdatacenter.com/O... ]. So it all depends on where you live...

    15. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      Exploited or not, if one is trying to start out as a programmer and nobody is willing to hire, what choice do they have?

      I still see "Junior" level jobs requiring 3 to 5 years in every acronym under the sun.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    16. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yes, I was exploited (worse than you're thinking). So what? I needed to break into the field. I did. Goal achieved. The money I made for the first couple of years just doesn't matter now - it opened the door, and was way the hell easier than a medical internship.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    17. Re: Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I made 32 starting out 4 years ago with no experience, but only worked it for a year and a half. I have now tripled that salary. I agree that taking lower pay is a good foot in the door when you have no experience. I had spent 7 months looking for work, but no one wanted a guy with a mediocre GPA and no experience or connections.

    18. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought programmers were smart.

      For a good portion of the profession, emotional maturation seems to have stopped the second they finished reading Atlas Shrugged.
      On the plus side it makes the rest of us look really good in comparison.I've never worried much about being unemployed.

    19. Re: Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya, I get it, I just hate to see it.

    20. Re:Based on inflation, don't take less than $53K by ThEATrE · · Score: 1

      I was paid $12 an hour at a software company in Long Island. And $12.50 an hour in a hedge fund off of Wall Street (Manhattan). I then went on to make a whole $40k/yr in Austin. Believe it.

  3. angry bird by beefoot · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    We need a new version of angry bird every week.
    0 5 * * 7 root release_a_new_angry_bird.py

    1. Re:angry bird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to call mine "Flabby Bird"! You have to navigate Larry Bird through a series of diets to try to maintain your old player weight, so you don't feel so old.

    2. Re:angry bird by us7892 · · Score: 1

      If only I mad mod points for this one. Funny +1.

  4. Ugh :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I love the idea of people who are genuinely interested gaining access to these careers but this reminds me too much of the last dot-com bubble. All sorts of idiots who had no business getting into technology jumped into the pool chasing lucrative salaries and making gigantic messes once they got hired. It took years to flush them all back out.

    1. Re:Ugh :( by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      It's the fallout from the "English Major? More like Fry Cook." response to how the economic crisis was screwing recent graduates. People see that and go "I don't want to be like that in 4 years"

    2. Re:Ugh :( by oursland · · Score: 1

      This time around people aren't chasing lucrative compensation, they're simply chasing compensation. What other major would you suggest to a high school senior that could employ them for the foreseeable future?

  5. It's easy money by ItUsedToBeBroken · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The kids see $220,000,000 spent on a website that doesn't work (ie: CoverOregon) and think "Hell, that looks like easy work for the compensation" and they're right.

    1. Re:It's easy money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most of that money went to management, not to the coders,

    2. Re:It's easy money by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Um, technically, that was a Canadian subcontractor, so blaming it on US tech workers is a bit of a stretch.

      Outsourcing sucks.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:It's easy money by ItUsedToBeBroken · · Score: 2

      Of course it did...but with the entitlement mentaility of todays graduates they assume they'll be leadership from day 1.

    4. Re:It's easy money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Kids these days, they want to start at the top and move sideways" - Harry Hartounian

    5. Re:It's easy money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shareholders, not managers. Shit,. I bet you don't even have an MBA.

    6. Re:It's easy money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm... You're talking about healthcare.gov, which was outsourced to CGI (although most of the contracting was actually to US subs). The PP was talking about Cover Oregon, which was contracted to Oracle (who, to be fair, probably did outsource a lot of it overseas).

      On the other hand, your major point (Outsourcing sucks) still stands.

  6. Great News For American Technology by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

    there was a 22% increase in enrollment for computer science bachelor's degree programs at U.S. schools

    Great news for American technology! Of course it will take a while before those students graduate, so we'll need to "temporarily" increase the H-1B quota 3x. We assure you that this is being done only to keep the industry from completely collapsing due to the desperate shortage of qualified people, so that we'll be able to offer jobs to all those American students when they graduate.

  7. Prepare your tinfoil hats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prepare your tinfoil hats.

    Here's my theory: The government sees our lack of knowledgable IT people as a risk to national security and has "put something in the water" (or whatever other method they have for influencing the public) to try to increase that number.

    Or - the bar has been lower.

    1. Re:Prepare your tinfoil hats by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Why do you need a tinfoil hat? "STEM shortage" is shouted from every rooftop, by government and non-government people alike, and has been ever since Sputnik. Objective statistics be damned - we need people who can take a scientific approach!

    2. Re:Prepare your tinfoil hats by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...

      --
      Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
    3. Re:Prepare your tinfoil hats by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Yeah, even the IEEE finally admits it. Don't expect them or the IEEE-USA to do anything though. IEEE is heavily dominated by academicians, who are all for cranking out more grads. Everybody knows where their bread is buttered.

    4. Re:Prepare your tinfoil hats by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      It's funny you say that - but it is true. We definitely need more STEM people in jobs not only in the technology fields (like IT) - but those jobs that interface with it as well (such as Project Management, Marketing et al). I can't tell you how many non-technical people I have to deal with in the course of a day. Some of them are actually holding technology positions...most are just collecting a paycheck for all the positive effect they have on the business. I have to get work done in spite of them. On the flip side - if a person got a STEM degree to make money (and whose heart is not into their field) - by all means stay away from technology...please...

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
  8. A degree is not the same as being hired by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    Get at least six months of work in the field before you graduate with your CS degree.

    Oh, and based on what I've seen, a lot of the students taking that are from other countries.

    Not to be confused with local students, of which there are many.

    As to the supposed goal of increasing women in technology, I've noticed it's all about only direct entry first year in STEM targetted on girls in middle and high school, which is fine, but ignores all the women who graduated high school and started work in another field or got all or part way to a degree in another field before deciding they liked tech better.

    You need to fix that, because there are too many hoops to jump through and it's very confusing.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  9. I've seen this before by ErichTheRed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I remember CS enrollment shot way up in the late 90s as the dotcom bubble was inflating. Now that we're in the late stages of the social media/apps bubble, and people are getting interested in computer science again, I'm guessing that's the reason for the spike.

    Bubble or no bubble, there's always going to be demand for good, talented people in software development and IT. The H-1B and offshoring trends have cut salaries significantly, and have made employment less stable, but there are still jobs out there. If students are going into CS that have a genuine interest in computers, that's good. Chasing the money like they were doing in the 90s without the desire will lead to the same problem we had when 2001 rolled around -- tons of "IT professionals" who had no aptitude for the work and were just employed because of the frothy market.

    I've managed to stay employed for almost 20 years now and I still really enjoy what I do. It's not as wildly lucrative as it was in the 90s when you could get 20+% salary increases by changing jobs every six months. The only things I've done consistently over this time are:
    - Keeping my skills current (and yes, it is a tough commitment especially when you employer doesn't care.)
    - Not begging for higher and higher raises every single time salary review time comes around (which requires saving and living within one's means...)
    - Choosing employers who don't treat their employees like they're disposable.

    I've heard lots of older IT people that they're actively discouraging their kids from following in their footsteps. I don't think that's necessarily good advice. Sure, there are crappy employers out there, and it's not a guaranteed ticket to wealth anymore. But if you're flexible and want interesting work that lets you use your brain and get paid for it, it's still a good move IMO. Look at the legal profession right now - the ABA sold out their members by allowing basic legal work to be offshored. Law degrees were previously an absolute guarantee of a respected, high-salary job, and now that profession is starting to see what we're seeing. My opinion is that as computers get more and more involved in our daily lives, a professional framework will eventually develop when things really start getting safety-sensitive and people stop treating computers like magic boxes and IT/developers like magicians.

    1. Re:I've seen this before by daveisfera · · Score: 1

      When I was at BYU in the late 90s, it was stated by several professors that CS was the most enrolled in and dropped out of major, so I agree that an increase in enrollment doesn't mean a whole lot. The meaningful number will be to see if there's a corresponding increase in the degrees awarded rate in 4 years.

    2. Re:I've seen this before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo, my college had 200-300 in the freshman classes and 20-30 in the senior classes. I think they started making freshman pass Calculus 1 and 2 prior to CS classes now which filters out a lot of people.

    3. Re:I've seen this before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My graduating class was 9 people. A 22% increase is approximately 2 more people graduated. As opposed to the business school which had hundreds of graduates, a good 1/4 of them with a 4.0 and above. Yes, the percentage is impressive, but put it into some context. 2 more graduates versus 50.

    4. Re:I've seen this before by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I've heard lots of older IT people that they're actively discouraging their kids from following in their footsteps

      I tell them, "find out what you like doing, and learn it well, but keep flexible. Don't chase fads or short-term money."

      IT is cyclical, unpredictable, and tends to eat the elderly, but so do many other professions. The work world is full of pointy edges and roller coasters.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    5. Re:I've seen this before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - Choosing employers who don't treat their employees like they're disposable.

      That is the thing that is getting harder and harder to find as time goes on.

    6. Re:I've seen this before by poached · · Score: 1

      Yeah and given the lackluster employment options to our college-bound or recent college graduates, it's no surprise that more are looking into CS where unemployment is still relatively low. Absolutely correct on H1-B and outsourcing too.

  10. and now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All those enrolees just have to make it through the program and actually graduate..

    1. Re:and now... by PPH · · Score: 1

      First time through, I read that as "parolees".

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  11. Why this is happening... by CaptainOfSpray · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I blame the Raspberry Pi myself. Oh, damn those fiendish Engishmen for inventing it! Nobody expected the Raspberry Pi.

    --
    "Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders
    1. Re:Why this is happening... by oursland · · Score: 2

      The people screwing around with Raspberry Pis in High School are exactly the people who should be choosing a CS major!

  12. yo dawg by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    What about when someone automates the automating?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:yo dawg by JWW · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, fully programmable self aware AI is 10-20 years away.

      In fact, its ALWAYS 10-20 years away.

    2. Re:yo dawg by lgw · · Score: 1

      That guy who automates the automating? Has a job. We won't run out of things to automate in my lifetime, and if we ever do get strong AI, it will likely demand higher wages than I will.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:yo dawg by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      Maybe it will help us develop nuclear fusion.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  13. Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Prediction in 3-4 years expect lots of pain in CS/IT employment.

    1. Re:Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, for entry jobs. People with 10+ years of experience will still be golden.

    2. Re:Now if we only had a 22% increase in CS Jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prediction in 3-4 years expect lots of pain in CS/IT employment.

      Only if you're in the bottom 22 percent of the industry. *rimshot*

  14. Engineering decimation by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

    I would posit that this increase is caused by technically minded students seeing what has happened to engineering in the US and focusing on CS as the last viable avenue of technical study with a healthy job market. It's the only place where entry level jobs are readily available. I would find it hard to encourage any young American to pursue a technical career outside of software development. As it stands now, engineering schools largely serve a Chinese and Korean student base.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  15. Wow! A whopping 0.9% increase!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You would think that a 22% increase in enrollment (and a 13.7% increase in new enrollment) would result in more than a jaw-dropping 0.9% in degrees awarded.

    Seems that CS is still one of the ass-kickinest degrees on the planet when a nearly 1/4 increase in enrollment results in almost no increase in earned degrees ;)

    I don't think those of us with the Wonka's golden ticket of degrees has much to be worried about.

  16. waste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    waste

  17. What inquiring minds need to know by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Sure, that's a lot of applicants, but really the most important thing is DO ENOUGH OF THEM HAVE VAGINAS?

    I mean, really, otherwise it's obviously sexism at work.

    --
    -Styopa
  18. Which programs are you looking at ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computer science has never been about pure it or software/computer use; it's always been about programming and the math around it

  19. Medical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife is in medical. She never has to worry about offshoring or H1-bs. Just saying.
    Her salary just goes up - unlike IT.

  20. Graduation Rates by asmkm22 · · Score: 1

    Why is so much emphasis put on enrollment rates, and not graduation rates? CS has a pretty high level of attrition (same with most STEM fields really), so I'd rather see numbers reflecting actual graduates.

  21. Wrong title by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 1

    The title should have said that enrollments were: enrollments*=1.22;

  22. Bachelor's degrees don't have to be a huge pain to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bachelor's degrees from accredited schools don't have to be difficult or too expensive to get. You just need to start. Regionally accredited online options with reasonable tuitions like American Public University www.apus.edu or Texas A&M Commerce http://www.tamuc.edu/ , or even those that grant ACE credit recommendations for tech certifications like www.Excelsior.edu can help you get the piece of paper requirement out of the way without costing the next 30 years of your life in student loans. Excelsior can be either the cheapest or most expensive option out of the 3 I listed, depending on how much you can knock out by exam. On a straight per credit fee basis, I think APU would be cheapest. Good luck!

  23. It's residencies AFTER med school currently chokin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Residencies for newly minted docs are paid for from Federal government funds in the U.S. There ARE offshore medical schools to get around the lack of seats in the U.S., but a new graduate still has to have somewhere to go for residency, and there are not enough funds made available to pay for the graduates coming out already, especially when you add in the offshore med schools.

    We have the same problem with mental health providers. We could easily find work for 3 x as many licensed psychologists, but there aren't enough psychologists in practice today who can afford to keep someone on the payroll, even at a discount for the 3000+ hours of practice it takes to be allowed to become a Licensed Professional Counselor in most states. And there's no shortage of places to get a Master's degree in Psychology, so there is a 2-3 year backlog of Psych graduates who can't complete their practice hours.

  24. Biology graduates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At work, most of the sales people I work with in the healthcare sales division all have some kind of BS degree in Biology. Well, except for the one odd gal out with the Master's in Physics... Not one of them is 'working in their field' as a scientist. We definitely graduate wayyyyyy too many science majors already if we're worried about more graduates working 'in their field' as the metric.