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GCHQ and NSA Targeted World Leaders, Private German Companies
Advocatus Diaboli sends this news from Der Spiegel:
"Documents show that Britain's GCHQ intelligence service infiltrated German Internet firms and America's NSA obtained a court order to spy on Germany and collected information about the chancellor in a special database. Is it time for the country to open a formal espionage investigation? ... A secret NSA document dealing with high-ranking targets has provided further indications that Merkel was a target. The document is a presentation from the NSA's Center for Content Extraction, whose multiple tasks include the automated analysis of all types of text data. The lists appear to contain 122 country leaders. Twelve names are listed as an example, including Merkel's."
Say it ain't so!
Since USAian's hurt feelings are a matter of national security, NSA is well within the law for collecting info about what Germans think.
Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.
Get used to it.. Stop being butthurt and increase your security.
Not sure if retard or troll.
On the off-chance that anyone actually believes that kind of garbage, no. It is not the NSA's job to spy on allies and neutral parties. It is their job to spy on enemy nations. Espionage is an act of war, and therefor, spying on allies and neutral countries is against international law and violates our treaties with them.
You are aware that the US still kinda depend on international trade, yes? And that said trade in the US is kinda dependent on exporting high tech equipment?
Now, could you see that this could get mighty complicated if every nation out there starts to distrust everything remotely electronic coming from your place?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
citation needed
Everyone spys on everyone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
Fuck all these other countries. You can't stop us anyway, we are the mightiest, richest, most powrerful nation on Earth and we do whatever the fuck we want.
And Americans wonder why they have a reputation for being both arrogant and uninformed...
Ironically, this is exactly what many of the beneficiaries of, um, your foreign policy would love you to do: take all your military kit and, respectfully, piss off.
The problem is that your trampling on "weaker" nations is kind of a large part of your being "mighty" and rich (well, one marginal fraction of you anyway) and your leaders are unlikely to give that up.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
It's kind of getting old hearing about the latest spying activity of the NSA.
It would be more interesting to hear who they're *not* spying on these days.
Deal with reality - the world as it is - rather than ideality - the world as you would like it to be.
Germany is an enemy and adversary? I think you living in wrong century. Making everyone pissed off is actually doing the opposite. It reduces freedom (TSA, domestic phone surveillance, etc) and increases danger when someone has had enough bullying.
And it might be a wakeup call, but your country is almost broke and the GDP of the EU is higher than the US one.
No other industrial country has so many homeless and poor people per capita than the US. The US can be very happy and grateful that Europe is still an ally of the US. Not an enemy.
>we do whatever the fuck we want.
And you still wonder why you have enemies? Behaving like an asshole bully creates the enemies you try to prevent with all that spying.
Following the shutdown of services from Mastercard and Visa in Russia, he is pushing for a russian payment system. At least he is facing his responsibilities, not like european leaders who, even facing the evidence that they are spied, won't do anything and still rely on US products.
We must ban Cisco equipment and Microsoft/Apple systems from our governments offices, once and for all. There are alternative solutions available, let's develop them, let's deploy them. Before, there was a risk. Now there is a fact. So what are we waiting for ?
And put all of these fuckers from the NSA and GCHQ inside a huge "public" database. Not editing any names for once, no matter the consequences.
I'm shocked. SHOCKED!
Seriously, WTF did you THINK they were doing exactly?
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
So, the NSA is doing foreign signals intelligence, eh?
As it is mandated by law to do...
Somehow, I can't get really excited that the NSA is actually doing its job. And yes, spying on foreign leaders is part of the job of the NSA, as it is for EVERY espionage organization in history....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Better safe than sorry, I reckon. Wouldn't want them to bomb Pearl Harbor again.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Appeal to popularity.
http://articles.chicagotribune...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
So people are upset about the NSA spying on companies and a country that was willing to look the other way on some very questionable practices ?
A little reality check here. George Washington was one of our first spymasters,
http://www.amazon.com/George-W...
And the value of intelligence information to our well being has not decreased one bit since the revolution.
Who in the world thinks that Russia DOESN'T spy on the US and GB (and France and Germany and everyone else for that matter). FFS - we ALL do it to everybody else.
This is like complaining that farts stink, and somebody just found out that we left a beige cloud in the restroom. Somebody light a match, close the door, and get on with it. In polite society you hold your breath and pretend like nothing happened, because the next time the remains of the burrito might be yours.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Everyone speeds while driving eventually. Does this suddenly mean that speed laws should be ignored? Laws are in place for a reason. "But everyone else is doing it!" didn't work when you were 13, and it sure as fuck doesn't work when you're an adult.
......that I've been carrying on an affair with Rachel from Cardholder Services. Pretty please, Mr. NSA man?
Seriously, how the fuck did they manage to miss 9/11, LIBOR rigging, the Boston Marathon bombing, etc.? Are they spending too much time on Yahoo Chat and Second Life? Or are they incompetent?
So then your all for foreign governments spying on everyone in the US government and doing mass surveillance on all US citizens right? They are just doing their job after all.
Spying against security threats is one thing. Spying against everyone is an act of war and human rights violation. Even the US government itself views spying on its citizens and government as an act of aggression.
Those in the NSA that authorized mass surveillance are criminals. The only reason why they are not in jail for a gross violation of not only the privacy rights of foreigners but even US citizens, is because the government is behaving like a bunch of unprincipled communist thugs. Without prosecution of thr massive number of privacy offenses committed by the NSA no one should trust US technology to protect their privacy-- not even Americans.
Not quite. The situation might be a good business opportunity for countries with high tech capability like Japan, Germany, maybe even Poland. Make the infrastructure hardware that's absolutely unhackable. That might put Cisco, Juniper, Dropbox, MS Azure, etc., out of business.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise. So there's a case for keeping a very close eye on your allies.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
German companies are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world and have sold arms to regimes that are hostile to the US. Likewise, you'd expect German satellite data providers and German financial service providers to do business with groups that are hostile to the US. And German governments have been trying to make trade deals and agreements that harm the US. The German government itself was monitoring many of its parliamentarians for anti-democratic communist activities, and Germany is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi activities. So, I would very much hope that US intelligence services are keeping a tab on the activities of both German private companies and the German government.
phony does as phony is; The court request said “the FBI made more than one visit to talk with Anzor, Zubeidat [Dzhokhar and Tamerlan’s parents] and Tamerlan, question Tamerlan about his internet searches, and asked him to be an informant, reporting on the Chechen and Muslim community,” as quoted by WBUR Boston. http://rt.com/usa/fbi-tsarnaev-informant-boston-bombing-001/
It's not like we care whether we have fewer enemies or more. We can bomb the fuck out of you if you look even look at us wrong. We are assholes because we can afford be and there is nothing you can do to stop us. The rest of the world must bend over for us and take it and like it.
If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise.
Doubly nasty when they turn against you precisely because you were spying on them.
At least it won't be a surprise though... since you were spying on them, so you'll know its coming.
Allied countries should of course maintain tabs on each other, but it hardly needs to rise to the level of tapping your closest allies cell phones to be effective.
Which, of course, is a fallacy because NSA is currently very short on popularity.
Ezekiel 23:20
Since the US government seems to force companies to put in backdoors, any rational foreign government would ban some US tech products from critical government use where privacy is a priority. (not to mention the only way the mass NSA surveillance will end is if US companies are hit hard which will make them push back much harder than they have done till Snowden revalations)
Complete ban of following US tech products for secure government use (and any large company that doesn't want its critical data on NSA servers)
---
Microsoft (OS, MS SQL DB)
Apple (OS and hardware backdoors)
Oracle (Java and DB)
Cisco (All networking products)
Plus any other US company that produces networking, close source operating system, or database products should have the product in question banned.
Highly suspect companies whose products should only be used for non-critical use or non-networked use
---
Google
Yahoo
Facebook
Intel (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
AMD (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
IBM (mainframes and mainframe OS)
Adobe (flash and pdf products)
HP
SAP
(insert any large US tech company here)
I guess you ask for being wiped out.
Unless their is political and economic fallout towards US, nothing will change. The US government (not to be confused with average Americans, most of whom hate what their government is doing) will keep spying.
Real change would require:
- Boycott of US tech products from critical government US in other nations.
- Some in the NSA need to be put in prison. It will make others question what they are doing (rather than just say they were following orders)
- The NSA is too corrupt to be salvageable. It should be completely dissolved and replaced with a new organization with far better public oversight
- US laws need to be changed that make it clear that its criminal offense to use mass surveillance either domestically or on foreigners
- International treaties need to be created that make it clear which forms of spying are a violation of human rights (because all the NSA is the best at it, they aren't the only ones doing it)
Because none of them would ever DREAM of spying on anyone, right? Jesus-On-A-Moped, every nation spies on every other nation to the extend that they can do so and have done for the last few thousand years at least and will likely always do so.
> Other nations can distrust anything they wish, but they have not other useful alternatives than to deal with us, they are our bitches.
That is true in case of some technologies like chips which are expensive to independently develop for less rich/advanced nations. But a good deal of software stuff is quite replaceable, with minimal pain. There are open source solutions or foreign services that are only slightly behind proprietary or US hosted solutions/services. The current surveillance situation simply incentivizes the alternatives and bridges that gap.
Peru did an open source requirement for government work some time ago and other governments were looking at similar stuff. Microsoft wrote that famous letter, 12 years ago, defending proprietary companies; something which is quite indefensible now.
http://opensource.org/docs/msF...
They simply did not have enough incentives until now. This isn't rocket science; its mainly a policy decision. China is developing its own Linux-based OS and has already replaced western social media services and search engine with its own etc. etc.
There is already that project that this will cost us $180 Billion in the near future.
http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2013/...
Let's see if it will bear out.
It's kind of difficult to isolate them when everybody buys their currency, their hardware/software, their music/movies. Look at the creation of the TSA: How many countries refused to hand over passenger lists of their citizens? How many countries refused to participate in the no-fly lists? How many countries refused to upgrade their security to expensive body scanners? OK, it took 10 years for some countries to obey the USA, but now, all leaders of allied countries have their hands around their ankles
So because other nations might spy on enemies, it's OK for the US to spy on allies in a manner that goes against the spirit of treaties and alliances?
Which treaty or alliance would that be?
0) You just fed the troll. Just ignore that kind of loser idiot... when you feed the troll, the troll wins a little.
1) Trolls should not be trusted to give you a fair summary of how most Americans think. I for one don't agree with this proposed American policy. But hey, thanks so much for painting all Americans with the same brush.
I wouldn't upset Germany too much.... you know....all green and everything....but can still put some fuckers in line if they need to....
It's a troll. I wouldn't be surprised if the original poster actually gets pouty about "Americans" too and wrote that in some attempt at sarcasm or humor.
It's a troll. I wouldn't be surprised if the original poster actually gets pouty about "Americans" too and wrote that in some attempt at sarcasm or humor.
You, and the AC above, are probably right. Poe's law and all that. Of course the corollary to that law is it doesn't actually work unless there really are people who genuinely believe what is being parodied. That includes some of our beloved moderators, in fact; this troll was at +1 when I replied.
And from where I am standing that also includes some of people shaping foreign policy, because the "eff you, we can do whatever we want" attitude is pretty much what the US project internationally.
I appreciate that this is not the opinion of most, or even all that many, Americans. But being a nominal democracy has the flip side that the People have a collective responsibility and accountability for allowing their elected leaders and diplomatic corps to misrepresent them so. This is not a new thing.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA?
Because it is in Germany's best interest to to be friends with the US.
Germany has bigger issues to worry about... Current economic issues trump this, as does the expansion of Russia into Europe.
NATO. Just as a starter
Yes they might at some point in the future.
But there's proof that NSA has already tried pushíng backdoors / vulnerabilities on american electronics designers / manufacturers. Anyway it's healthy for the market with more international actors.
lol...I guess PT Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute.
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Angular Ferkel might be annoyed that they're tapping her phone, but she's pretty unlikely to throw in her lot with that baboon-faced untermensch Putin.
Seriously. These are senior politicians, not teenagers.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
She doesn't have to ally with the Russians, all she has to do is refuse to lift a finger to facilitate some trade dispute; decide to prioritize meetings with diplomats from other countries, not bother to pursue some treaty or other the US thinks is important for it to have an impact.
Seriously. These are senior politicians, not teenagers.
Right. Teenagers aren't as corrupt. :-p
In all seriousness though, they are human beings like the rest of us. They remember favors, and they remember those that have embarrassed them. They may set aside grudges when politically necessary but will absolutely act on them when ever they can 'get away with it'.