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Slashdot Asks: Will You Need the Windows XP Black Market?
NicknamesAreStupid (1040118) writes "As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP — the 'haves'. However, most will be the 'have nots.' Anytime you have such market imbalance, there is opportunity. Since Microsoft clearly intends to create a disparity, there will certainly be those who defy it. What will Microsoft do to prevent bootleg patches of XP from being sold to the unwashed masses? How will they stop China from supporting 100 million bootleg XP users? And how easily will it be to crack Microsoft's controls? How big will the Windows XP patch market be?"
There are a lot of businesses still on Windows XP; if you work for one of them, will the official end of life spur actually cause you to upgrade? (And if so, to what?)
I'm going to run XP in a VM from Linux. Anytime I get infected, I'll just restore to before the infection.
there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out,
Seriously? Nobody even bothered to read the first sentence of the submission?
Looks like XP, mostly works like XP, closer to XP than Win 8, easier upgrade path than Win 8, lower rate of support calls from friends and family ...and in my experience, it's lighter and faster and more responsive than XP. So, no, I won't be laying out hundreds of pounds/dollars on a new machine or even more hundreds on replacing all the software that will not work on Win 8.
"Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders
Any idea how many of these XP systems are actually air-gapped and offline? If they're not connected to anything and require local-access to hack, what point is there really to upgrade?
If UK govt paid $9M for 12 months, how much does it cost to upgrade 680,000 PC's? A lot of them will probably need new hardware.
At a pure guess of $500 per PC, including new Office licenses, some new hardware, labour, etc. over 12 months, $9M is only 3% of the total cost. They could invest the upgrade money and make a profit from buying extended support.
SkyNet Couldn't have it any more easier .... !
what on earth does that sentence mean?
What do you mean what on earth does that sentence mean what on earth does that sentence mean - the haves?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I guarantee in writing, or nothing of value returned, the MS will restart support for XP.
This is the first OS that Bill got mostly right (took a couple of SPs).
But seriously, the adoption of XP is very deep and it will probably take another decade
to break from depending on it. Many embedded systems, POS terminals rely on it to
operate. Especially retail, where any upgrade offers absolutely no benefit - XP works fine.
Many shops use the "free" visual studio for their XP development. If MS doesn't continue
support as they have in the past, yes, users will upgrade away from MS products and
possibly linux. It only takes one big name to do it first, then everybody else follows.
Once that critical mass is reached, MS will, almost overnight, disappear.
CAP = 'bill gates' pretty funny
Linux Mint Cinnamon [is] closer to XP than Win 8
But how well does Wine run apps that run on Windows XP? Last time I checked, the iTunes Store client ran on Windows XP but not on Wine. And how well does Wine run applications that control expensive-to-replace peripherals with Windows XP drivers? I imagine one would need ReactOS to run those, as among free operating systems, only ReactOS implements enough NT infrastructure to have any chance of running Windows XP drivers.
Can an unused retail copy of XP be activated? Will MS support THAT?
What will I do? Probably keep working from a known image and patch it up as best I can.
In other words, the same thing I've done with legacy DOS, 95, Novell, 98 and 2k systems.
My hope is that at some point I can find a low-overhead Linux or BSD system to use as a VM host, and then have access to every operating system since the dawn of the 4004.
Futurist Traditionalism
The unwashed masses are too cheap to upgrade or to even get editors that can even make at least a half arsed attempt at reading before submitting. Why would anyone think they are all going to run out and pay for a service, that is ignoring the incredible complexity of supplying said patches in the first place.
It's DAZzling :)
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
Read the headline. It clearly states that anyone supporting XP after Microsoft disowns to OS is a 'CRIMINAL'. That's why the term 'black market' is used. Third-party support for XP becomes tainted with terminology specifically chosen to imply criminality.
Apparently,according to the owners of Slashdot (who are DIRECTLY responsible for all article summaries posted here), all versions of XP become 'boot-leg' copies after the Microsoft disownment date. This filthy Orwellian use of terminology accompanies Microsoft's ILLEGAL position that users do not own their copy of their OS. Actually, as tested in EU courts, the OS is just as much a product as your car or blender. And you are just as entitled to use it with or without the official support of the original manufacturing company.
But the owners of Slashdot make MAJOR coin by running/promoting articles like this one. Direct payments from Microsoft for doing so. And this abuse of language in propaganda is only going to get worse. When did this site ever cover so-called 'climate change' without giving prominence to the word 'DENIER' in the summary. This is how stupid the owners of Slashdot think you are.
I had to read this 3 time to verify that i was not still drunk 3 times to verify drunk that i was still not drunk.
As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP ...
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What software are you using that keeps you on XP?
Take advantage of the hive-mind, there may be alternatives or workarounds.
If the recent whistleblowing of top secret shit is any measure, these updates being duped and leaked is a foregone conclusion.
Then it must have changed very recently: garbage in 1.7.5 (December 2013), gold in 1.7.15 (April 2014). I wonder what breaking change Apple will introduce in the next version.
Why is it that every story these days has to be about an imagined divide between "haves" and "have nots?"
Just stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with XP or Windows 2000 Pro UI, particularly for business. Heck even Windows 98 UI is far more user friendly then the utter garbage Microsoft is producing now. They could have simply just added new features where you can turn on or add things like Metro. There really is no valid reason for the average use to migrate other than security which could simply be taken care of with anti-virus. Microsoft could have simply handled this by charging updates to XP each year.
Something like:
"Your copy of XP will expire and will be insecure. Receive the latest security updates for 1 year. Buy it Now $10".
"Add Metro UI, Buy it Now $10".
"Upgrade to XP 2015, buy it now $80"
F Microsoft UI developers and all the fan boys that want change for the sake of change. While I am at it, F the Linux developer community for going down the same path at the same time as Metro and losing a perfectly good opportunity to challenge Microsoft missteps.
Unless theres some msblast type remote exploit found again, I don't see any need for updates.
I've been running Windows XP since pre-launch(worked tech support for MS then); My last update was SP2(because I found SP3 was just added for .net framework and to slow it down to make vista/etc not seem so bad).
It's the web browsers security and applications you install in general that are a vulnerability, sure it's the same thing as surfing as 'root/admin' but that's how it was done all through DOS/win9x, and that was fine also.
So XP support? meh, I guess some might need it, update your browsers and keep antivirus around if your worried. the single biggest reason to install a newer OS is > 3.5gb memory support.
FYI: I have about a half a dozen computers here, most all came with a windows vista-7 license, I 'upgraded'(down implies negative) them all to XP, and they run much better and even take less power(I'm a bit of a power miser(offgrid)).
They have become reliant on a single supplier for updating the OS. All market related forces for a company with a Monopoly position will occur. With an open source product a new supplier for updates could have emerged. It will be interesting to see if counterfeit updates will emerge.
It clearly states that anyone supporting XP after Microsoft disowns to OS is a 'CRIMINAL'.
Under current copyright law, Microsoft could make a good faith case that anybody else providing modifications to its copyrighted operating systems is committing criminal infringement of copyright. I don't see how stating a reasonable interpretation of current law is "propaganda".
Actually, as tested in EU courts
Slashdot is subject to the jurisdiction of US courts, not EU courts.
you are just as entitled to use it with or without the official support of the original manufacturing company.
Using it doesn't include modifying it, which is what third parties providing support would have to do in order to let their clients keep using it without known security holes. And there's precedent against that: Apple successfully sued in the United States a company that was selling PCs along with the patch to run OS X on them. Put Apple v. Psystar in your favorite web search engine.
Nobody in their right mind is going to resort to the black market for XP support for a business -- it'd be like *inviting* the crackers into your network.
Home users either won't know how or won't care to bother. Most people I know who are still running XP have been virus-infected for months or even years. As long as it lets them play YouTubes, check their gMail, and surf Crackbook they just flat out don't *care* that the machine is infected.
Hell, most of them don't even realize the adware popups they keep seeing are due to an *infection*, not "bad behaviour" on the part of the aforementioned websites. One fellow I knew used to complain about the "popups from YouTube" all the time, 'cause all he ever did was YouTube and Crackbook. As far as he was concerned, it was YouTube that was putting up all the porn ads.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
F the Linux developer community for going down the same path at the same time as Metro
What "same path as Metro"? I don't see "modern" tiley garbage on my copy of Xubuntu. Its user interface behaves more like Windows 2000/XP than Windows 8 without Classic Shell does.
"As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP — the 'haves'
what on earth does that sentence mean? this is even worse than Timothy's earlier oversight of re-running the same article less than a week after its first run. we know slashdot doesn't pay editors to edit, but could they at least show enough pride in their job to read what they post?
This kind of poor quality work is what long ago dissuaded me from ever paying for a Slashdot subscription. I block ads, too, since before my karma level gave me the option of having Slashdot do it for me. That was all before Malda sold out to Dice Holdings. It's not improved since.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Everyone knew long ago that end of support was coming. Most of the enterprises that I consult for have already finished or started migrations to Windows 7. Some have gone to 8.1, but most are moving to 7.
XP has been around for a long, long time. It's time to move on.
I'm a Windows XP user. I see no need to upgrade. The only circumstances in which I would upgrade is either I can't find hardware to run XP on or the data I process (documents, music, video) have no applications I can use on XP. These circumstances forced me from 98 to 2000 and now XP.
Yes, I'm going to have to take care to stop being infected by malware. Good anti-virus, good firewall, Chrome browser, safe surfing habits, care with email.
If you would like a similar analogy people drive old cars with drum brakes, no seat belts, no air bags and no crush zones in modern traffic. They see no need to upgrade as well. Just take care and be sensible.
It means his control c got stuck and pasted twice.
I imagine this happened because the keys got sticky from a couple one handed sessions in the middle of the night which might also explain the lack of attention on the actual post and the lapse in editing.
I've heard stories about people putting their keyboards in the dishwasher to clean them but I'm not sure I would ever want to eat at the editors house after that unless it was a BBQ and we used paper plates.
How would [providing third-party updates to Windows XP components] be different from (i.e. less legitimate than) publishing a device driver, AV suite, or other system-level software?
Device drivers, antivirus suites, and the like don't need to replace Windows system files with fixed versions of the same code to function. Windows updates do. And because they'd be providing versions of the same (Microsoft) code without the permission of the owner of copyright in that code, they would likely infringe* Microsoft's copyright.
* Slashdot posts aren't Legal Advice(tm).
For any scammer who pretends to install an XP patch, but actually installs malware.
You don't pay for a subscription to reward the editors. You do it because occasionally someone will say something so insightful you want to review everything else he's ever written here.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Not every story is about an imagined divide. Some have an imagined divide whereas others do not.
My business uses software that was written for serial communication that simply doesn't work on windows 7, nor 8. The cost of replacing the software is more than having a couple dozen thinkpads with windows xp installed handy in case one goes down and we can't get support. At that we've even tried to have new software written and the vendors who took on the task simply couldn't get it to work. Then we run into the damn hardware problem I still can't find a serial to usb adapter that runs across at 1200 baud.
The only circumstances in which I would upgrade is [...] the data I process (documents, music, video) have no applications I can use on XP. [...] Yes, I'm going to have to take care to stop being infected by malware. Good anti-virus [...] Chrome browser
So long as Google and the publishers of "good anti-virus" continue to support Windows XP. Otherwise, "the data [you] process" (virus definitions and HTML documents) would "have no applications [you] can use on XP". Support for Chrome on Windows XP will continue longer, possibly as a side effect of support on Windows Server 2003, but even that's going away in a year.
good firewall
If security researchers (wearing any color hat) exploit a defect in the TCP/IP stack of Windows XP, a firewall running on Windows XP is unlikely to help you much.
Given that somebody clearly took the trouble to make Unofficial patch sets for Windows 98, we can fully expect unofficial patch sets for Windows XP
http://www.mdgx.com/upd98me.ph...
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
How would [providing third-party updates to Windows XP components] be different from (i.e. less legitimate than) publishing a device driver, AV suite, or other system-level software?
Device drivers, antivirus suites, and the like don't need to replace Windows system files with fixed versions of the same code to function. Windows updates do. And because they'd be providing versions of the same (Microsoft) code without the permission of the owner of copyright in that code, they would likely infringe* Microsoft's copyright.
* Slashdot posts aren't Legal Advice(tm).
It wouldn't be possible to provide only a binary patch that contains just the modifications to said files? That would also infringe copyright?
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I had my printer and scanner up and running in 15 minutes after a brief search for drivers.
I got printing and scanning working on Linux, but I needed to replace my existing printer and scanner with an HP Officejet 4500 because the page for my old scanner on the SANE project's web site had said "unsupported" for years. It must be even worse for companies that will need to replace a multi-thousand-dollar CNC mill. They'll probably just need to air gap the machine that controls it and continue to run unsupported XP.
You don't pay for a subscription to reward the editors. You do it because occasionally someone will say something so insightful you want to review everything else he's ever written here.
But your payment does reward the company and its staff. There is no way around that. They don't deserve it, their shoddy work hasn't earned it, and no fringe benefit of extra database access is enough to convince me otherwise.
Your value system may vary. I for one was speaking for myself.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Most of them can solate the XP machines in a private network, very much like i isolated the Windows98 machines (Thanks, Tektronix) a few years back.
Then we run into the damn hardware problem I still can't find a serial to usb adapter that runs across at 1200 baud.
Couldn't you make such an adapter out of a microcontroller like the one in an Arduino kit?
We don't need to hear your rationalisations, Slashdot already has a high tolerance for leaches.
Linux has a Dramatically better hardware support than XP,Vista,7 or 8 has combined.
Dramatically better on the whole? Perhaps. Better for every particular device? Not necessarily. There are probably plenty of edge cases that have an XP driver and no Linux driver at all. Does SANE support the Microtek ScanMaker 4850 flatbed scanner yet? It appears not.
you need to upgrade. Sooner or later one of the poorly policed ad networks will serve you up a virus. I run some ads off my home page to pay for hosting/etc and I stick to google's ads because so far every site I browse has been shut down at least once when their ad networks served up a virus. Angry Nintendo Nerd, Spoony Experiment, Something Positive. All of them. Heck, I think even Penny Arcade's been nailed.
:(...
It's not a matter if if, it's when. Which is why I'm posting from Win 7 today
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
It wouldn't be possible to provide only a binary patch that contains just the modifications to said files? That would also infringe copyright?
That depends on how a particular judge decides to apply precedents related to Apple v. Psystar.
What market? All you need is one person to give it out for free and the market collapses. Nobody will make a penny on XP bootleg patches.
The objective of applying security updates from Microsoft is to make your OS safer by applying fixes delivered by a trusted party. MS may not be perfectly "trusted" but at least it has to worry about the liability of any fishy piece of software they install in your computer. On the other hand any source from the "black market" can simply deliver rootkits and any kind of malware disguised as security updates which certainly defies the purpose of applying updates.
And guess what, 6 to 13 years from now windows 7/8.1 will go the same way as XP, and so we will have the same dance as we have now. Why not small and big businesses get together and start supporting(hire software developers) linux or even bsd instead of wasting time and money on MS products. Windows 9 beta this year and rtm next year.
Haven't needed that shit since 2003.
You claim that making and distributing patched components of a copyrighted operating system for a fee is equivalent to writing in the margins of physical textbooks that you own. One is very likely fair use; one is very likely not. A determination of fair use under United States copyright law always depends on the facts of a particular case. One is done privately in an educational context; the other is done publicly for financial gain.
Its not a black market if 3rd party companies decide to continue support XP.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Have you looked into a serial-to-ethernet converter, like the ones made by Moxa?
In the end it won't matter and neither will he or xp or ms or anything anyway.
Would the Chinese want to pirate XP, sure. Windows 7, of course. Windows 8, hell no.
The thing is this: you can get a better OS, for FREE, than Windows 8. So the question isn't about XP Support, the last viable Windows OS is 7, not XP. When that goes, most of China will be on Ubuntu Kylin or some other superior platform. The free stuff is so good now, you don't have to pirate anymore.
I'm sure when you signed the legaly binding contract to get the source code that you'd have to have to modify to compile to get the binary patch, their was a clause prohibiting you from distributing any binaries from the source or derivatives of the source.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
/. editors don't edit, they just make postings visible.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I think you accidentally a sentence accidentally a sentence
I'm all for extending the life of old machines. I know a lot of people are very happy with XP and don't need a new OS or computer, but there are times when it's just easier to move on and other times when it's better to stick with it.
Any competent admin would have started a migration to win7 a long time ago. Short of industrial use (e.g. a computer that controls machinery) there's little incentive to stick with xp. Patches to the OS are going to be of limited value for industrial applications anyway, as a competent setup would isolate the machines to a very secure private network (if any) and have multiple barriers of defense set up.
woosh...
Do they need more then one hand for that?
For Windows 2k and above virtual box works well. Note that with virtual box you can set it up so that once you build the image you want you can do like some internet cafes and make a new copy every time the guest os is booted up. So every time the guest is started it will start clean. A used instance of the guest is just thrown away. With virtual box you can share a file on the host into the guest with the add ons. So assume the guest gets infected , shut it down and the infected version just goes away. virtual box does install xp well.
It might take a bit of scripting to do the copy but it is doable.
Patches exist. A big country could pass a law to force MS to publish them in the sake of national interest, or pay a huge daily a fine (or give up the market in that big country).
Damn. I'm fresh out of mod points. :^)
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Is there an Echo?
Looks like somebody hacked the original submission - http://beta.slashdot.org/~NicknamesAreStupid . Is that part of the new beta site?
I'm sure when you signed the legaly binding contract to get the source code that you'd have to have to modify to compile to get the binary patch, their was a clause prohibiting you from distributing any binaries from the source or derivatives of the source.
You don't need the source code to make a patch for a binary - there are a million cracked computer games out there that were patched by third parties without access to the source.
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
The fact that one is done by computer, the other by hand, shouldn't change anything.
Shouldn't but does. The outer packaging of copies of Microsoft PC software states that the software is licensed, not sold, under terms set forth at a particular URL. The prospective "buyer" is expected to view these terms on an Internet terminal inside the store. And if a work is licensed, not sold, even copying the program from the hard disk into RAM to run it appears to require Microsoft's permission because the defense under 17 USC 117(a)(1) is available only to the owner of a copy, not a licensee. Precedents differ between the United States and the European Union, however: Vernor v. Autodesk (USA 9th Circuit) upheld "licensed, not sold", but UsedSoft v. Oracle (European Court of Justice) applied "if it quacks like a sale".
Yeah but it is a few orders of magnitude more difficult.
The year of the Linux desktop is finally here!
The business I work at has migrated to Windows 7, like most all businesses. However.. There is at least one 16bit application we need to run for some users so that means they used XP Mode for that single app where they had Win 7 x64. One app I 'tricked' into runnning on x64 even though it said it wouldn't. (bypassed the installer check). Some hardware didn't have drivers on XP, but that hardware was also quite dated and we replaced it with something more modern. Some things i managed to move to Linux, I wish I could move more, but I am not the one in charge so... Now I get to see how they handle their Server 2003 upgrade over the next year.. I also get to see how it goes with the computers they left Office 2003 on (even though EOL for it was the same day XP was)...
It would be possible to offer them as binary diffs and tag along a decompiler like IDA PRO so the client can use 3rd party consultant to check what the binary diff decompiles into is safe.
While you should get all available patches installed, it's not absolutely critical that you receive new updates, because, by now, you should be operating under the assumption that your machines are compromised, or at least compromisable. The last decade of patch tuesdays proves this. Unfortunately, most corporate policies revolve around these treadmills out of vendor-driven misguided fear of potential liability suits. The reality is that windows 8 will eventually have the same long list of patch tuesdays xp has.
The best way to secure your systems is to deny your employees access to the net. If your company does devwork, then put the programmers on their own subnet separate from the rest of the corporate network, and give them their own route to the net. The secretary doesn't need to browse facebook on her desktop.
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>What software are you using that keeps you on XP?
Windows XP itself. I find it's shell, especially the task bar, much better than all later versions.
I've also seem the upgrade process on other computers and I don't feel like installing and configuring Windows ever again.
And to top it off, I've got a nice visual style on XP that won't work in more recent Windows versions.
Given that I don't believe that keeping XP will lead to virus hell, I have no reason at all to make the switch. So I won't.
Just... no. Stop using XP. Ideally, stop using Windows. But at least stop using XP.
Don't want to pay for the OS? What an OS that runs on just about any hardware? Dump Windows and go LINUX!
Because I don't unnecessarily cling to the past. I move on and adapt to the the world.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Granted, you can buy the whole album on a shiny disc, or you can break the law
Except any Youtube downloader (including for mobile phones) have no trouble whatsoever downloading that video.
I covered that: "or you can break the law". Technically, YouTube downloader apps violate the YouTube Terms of Service, which in the United States is likely* a criminal violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
* Again, only lawyers offer Legal Advice(tm).
I mean you only replace a pump's pressure switch when it fails.
Try on this analogy for size: A flaw has been found in the pump that causes its pressure switch to fail every time when exposed to a new chemical in the liquid that it is pumping. This chemical has become widespread since the pump was manufactured for one of two reasons: either A. it is a pollutant that new industrial activity has started to release, or B. environmental regulations or controlled substance regulations now require its addition.
I just completed a migration of 3 machines for a client.
1 XP machine was replaced with a different machine running Vista Home Premium.Their UPS shipping data was migrated to the new machine, as well as updating the software.
1 XP machine was upgraded to a fresh install of Windows 7 Professional.This machine also had to have a 'forced upgrade' from Quickbooks
1 XP machine was replaced with a re-certified Dell running Windows 7 Professional.
And since they had a certain piece of software they could not do without on that last machine, software that would not run/install on Windows 7, I set up a fresh XP install, fully patched and updated, on a SFF machine dedicated to that one task, which has no Internet or network access.
In the process of the migration, I also discovered torrent software installed on one machine by an as yet unidentified employee. All machines are now locked down to prevent unauthorized installation of any type of software.
Differences between how you act when some one is watching, and how you act when no one is watching, define who you are
The official end of life spur actually caused me to upgrade to Windows 8.1. Windows 8.1 runs all of the office software for accounting and word processing without problems.
I never installed the patches anyway, although I did install SP1, 2, and 3. A good firewall and common sense have kept me virus-free since DOS and floppy disk days (I got the Stoner virus about 20 years ago.)
Not gonna post any "rah rah Linux is better" nonsense. I just prefer to use Linux distros and none of my computers run Windows.
So the XP EOL doesn't affect me in the slightest.
You need to chill out to a nice, smooth rolling bassline.
Those were the days, young people.
Stick Men