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New Service Lets You Hitch a Ride With Private Planes For Cost of Tank of Gas

Posted by samzenpus on from the going-my-way? dept.

v3rgEz (125380) writes "A new service, Airpooler, matches pilots with passengers looking to head the same way. Since it's not an officially licensed charter service, prices are limited to roughly the passengers' share of the gas, giving pilots a way to share the expense of enjoying the open blue and flyers a taste of their personal pilot."

27 of 269 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds scary by JoeyRox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I live near a municipal airport and based on the landings I've seen I'm not sure I would entrust my life to a private pilot certified on only a puddle jumper.

    1. Re:Sounds scary by QuasiSteve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Out of curiosity... do you feel differently about cars? (e.g. through services such as Uber and Lyft)

    2. Re:Sounds scary by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not sure I would trust the opinion of someone that thinks the TSA is the main regulatory body of civilian aviation.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  2. Re:Just don't fly.. by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's better than into the ocean

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  3. um... by edibobb · · Score: 4, Funny

    I don't think I want to get into an unknown plane flown by an unknown pilot who needs to share the fuel bill.

    1. Re:um... by Bobberly · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a pilot, I'm not sure how to take your remark. I'm pretty sure the rigorous training and medical certifications I've completed will have you in much safer hands than the trip you take to the grocery store from your house. What are the requirements for driving a 3 ton vehicle these days, heartbeat and visit to the local DL office?

    2. Re:um... by Obfuscant · · Score: 5, Informative

      And you personally know all of the pilots before you board any plane?

      On a commercial air carrier flight, I know that the pilot has been to recurrent training within the last six months (I think it is, maybe 12), has had a check pilot evaluate his performance within the same time frame, and has a second fully qualified pilot sitting in the other seat. He's had intensive simulator training to deal with a vast number of potential in-flight emergencies. I know both of them are fully IFR qualified in a fully IFR capable aircraft in case the weather deteriorates enroute. Both have 1st Class medical certificates which involve a lot more than "kicking the tires and peeing in a cup".

      On a private flight, I'm pretty sure the pilot has had an hour of flight sometime in the last two years (a biennial flight review) and has made three landings that he could walk away from in the last 90 days (or heals really quickly). The airplane has probably been inspected sometime within the last year for airworthiness. But there is little overview by the FAA for those requirements. If he owns his own plane nobody really checks until the NTSB does the investigation after the crash. If he's renting then the FBO will probably make sure he's met the legal minimums. There's no easy way to tell rental vs. owner. And the medical? The last time the pilot may have seen any doctor was a decade or more ago*.

      I fear this kind of ride-share is going to make the FAA look closer at the requirements for private pilots, not simplify them.

      * sport pilot rules. All a pilot needs for a "medical" is a driver's license as long as he's not had an application for a medical certificate denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn.

    3. Re:um... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a pilot too. I know all too well how "rigorous" that training is and how arbitrary and silly the medical certificate can be.

      I know multi-kilo hour pilots who have no clue how to handle hard IMC, inflight ice, over-water flights, soft/short field landings, or even do a weight and balance.

      I also know some idiots who I will not allow at the controls of any airplane I am in, regardless of what certificates they hold. I have been flying for 25 years. There is a lot of deadly ignorance out there.

    4. Re:um... by Entropius · · Score: 3, Informative

      They probably let Dick Cheney drive, so you don't even need a heartbeat. (He's also prone to shoot people in the face, too.)

    5. Re:um... by Valdrax · · Score: 3, Informative

      What are the requirements for driving a 3 ton vehicle these days, heartbeat and visit to the local DL office?

      You forgot massive and unnecessarily burdensome documentation of your identity to help make sure college students, the elderly, and the working poor don't vote.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  4. Potential FAA issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are some severe legal questions surrounding this service. In a nutshell, the FAA considers anyone who advertises at all ("Holding out" as a provider in their terminology) as a charter service. The fact that it's limited to the passenger's share of the costs is not relevant as far as the FAA is concerned -- you need a valid commercial pilot's license and a 121 license to do this legally in the opinion of many.

    1. Re:Potential FAA issues by Richy_T · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sorry, cloudy skies :D

    2. Re:Potential FAA issues by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are some severe legal questions surrounding this service. In a nutshell, the FAA considers anyone who advertises at all ("Holding out" as a provider in their terminology) as a charter service. The fact that it's limited to the passenger's share of the costs is not relevant as far as the FAA is concerned -- you need a valid commercial pilot's license and a 121 license to do this legally in the opinion of many.

      I would agree. As a private pilot, I can share costs with passengers, but I personally would limit that to people that I know and routinely associate with. NEVER am I going to haul somebody someplace for their benefit only, but if we are heading out on a weekend trip together and they want to help out with the fuel costs, seems that would not be a 121 situation and my private pilot license would be good enough.

      I can NOT imagine how a smart phone app arranged ride would be OK with the FAA. Taking strangers up in hopes of getting reimbursed for a fraction of the fuel cost seems to be a problem to me. First off, DON'T go flying with some yahoo you don't know who agrees to this because if they are stupid enough to take strangers up in a light aircraft for fuel shares you don't want them as a pilot. Second, many people I've taken up in a smaller aircraft have been uncomfortable with experience. I cannot imagine how anybody would hop into an C172 with a stranger as the pilot. Finally, I'd hate to see the insurance claims and lawsuits should some private pilot ball one up while carrying "paying" passengers who are strangers.

      Drive, or take a commercial fight, or if you want to take some one as a private pilot, make it a gift and pay the costs yourself.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Potential FAA issues by joe_frisch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a private pilot the legal issues worry me. The pilot training, aircraft maintenance, and operating requirements are very different for different types operations. The "sharing costs" is based on the concept that you can fly your friends to Las Vegas and split the costs. It is assumed that you have reasonable informed your friends of the risks. If you are taking other "passengers" for some form of compensation, have they *really* been informed of the risks - which are dramatically higher for private flights than for air carriers.

      If there is an aircraft malfunction and someone is injured, what are the insurance / lawsuit issues? what happens if a passenger damages your airplane - stepping in the wrong place, can do thousands of dollars of damage to some planes. What if you can't reach the intended destination due to weather - does the passenger get a refund? What if you are delayed? It is legal for private flights to operate under weather conditions that are not legal for commercial flights -what happens here? Fuel is less than 1/2 the total operating costs for my plane - do I get to split all costs, or just fuel?

      We are also talking a lot of money here. A Bonanza or Cirrus total operating cost is probably ~$200/hour, so a "quick flight" from San Francisco to Las Vegas is $1000 round trip, close to 2X that in my Baron. Non-pilot passengers may expect a level of service and performance that just isn't reasonable for small planes.

      Its a nice idea, and I'd love to participate, but there are too many possible problems.

    4. Re:Potential FAA issues by plover · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, it's still murky waters if random-pilot-of-the-day does it wrong...

      --
      John
  5. Passenger can not influence destination ... by perpenso · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My understanding is that this is treading on very dangerous grounds with respect to FAA guidelines.

    A "share" of the cost includes all expenses of the flight. Rental, fuel, etc. The pilot and passenger must each pay half of total expenses.

    The passenger can have no influence on the destination. If the pilot is flying from A to B and the passenger tags along, OK. But if the pilot just wants hours and goes to B because the passenger needs to go there then I think there is an FAA regulations problem and the FAA will consider the flight commercial.

    That said I am not a lawyer nor a FAA guidelines expert. All I know is what my instructor told me many years ago in ground school. "The person showing you their FAA ID is never ever there to help you. Never hand your license to the FAA official to help them read / inspect it, that can be considered surrendering your license if the FAA official wishes to interpret the act as such. Keep the license in your hand and move it closer to their face if they are having a hard time reading it, pull it away if they reach for it. If they ask for it tell them you will be handing it to your attorney and they can speak with him/her."

  6. Having a private pilots license by bussdriver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Cars are forgiving, the sky is NOT. If as many people flew small planes as people drive it would not be as safe in terms of fatalities. It is true when you compare apples to oranges driving is more dangerous; but if you want to even get close to a fair comparison you would compare jets to buses and you'd compare fatalities and injuries separately... since car accidents are far less likely to result in fatalities.

    The FAA has strong rules about flying others around and the FAA never changes the regulations, they only add, never remove. The exchange of money at all for any connected reason is going to cause trouble.

    Besides, if you thought the taxi lobby was a problem for ride sharing; you'd never even dare to mess with the airline industrial complex (which is so heavily subsidized, it is more of a scam than a market.)

    --
    Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
    1. Re:Having a private pilots license by bradorsomething · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you do not hit something at the end of your flight, you have either been abducted by aliens or achieved orbit. Neither are good. It's how controlled that strike is that concerns people.

    2. Re:Having a private pilots license by mopower70 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know, aside from a few mountains that mostly stay put there's nothing to hit in the air except other planes, and there's a LOT more room to maneuver than on the street.

      You'd think that... but I imagine it's a lot like sailing. I sail on the ocean and even if there's only a handful of boats out there, there's a good chance you're going to come near one of them. Every airplane is dealing with the same flying conditions and a fairly limited number of destinations. You're generally going to want to take the shortest, most fuel-efficient path - along with every other craft up there. In theory there's lots of room to maneuver, but the odds of you occupying the same space as another craft going or coming the same direction are actually pretty good.

    3. Re:Having a private pilots license by RavenLrD20k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      even though the public likes to imagine that running out of gas in a plane means soaring gently until you land on a convenient 4-lane road or meticulously preened grass field

      Ok, I get that a plane isn't going to glide as well as a glider that's designed for, well, gliding; but it's not going to drop like a stone either, unless you suck at buying planes and vetting designs. You control your airspeed with your pitch, and so long as you don't let it drop below the minimum airspeed to generate lift, you can keep a dead plane in the air for a while. Long enough that you can find someplace to put down where you'll get minimal damage for the area. Keep your head about you and keep from stalling the lift, always have an emergency landing target in mind, and so long as you haven't been hit by a missile you should be ok. Granted, it's probably not going to be the most gentile landing, and the likelihood that the plane will be able to fly again isn't too good unless you really get lucky on finding the perfect field/road/clearing to put down on, but that's why you keep emergency supplies on board for first aid, flares and rations... right?

    4. Re:Having a private pilots license by Aeonym · · Score: 4, Informative

      Aircraft injuries/fatalities are only better than cars because the vast majority of traffic is on commercial airlines that are rigorously maintained, with pilots who must pass (relatively) stringent qualifications.

      Little private planes are much more dangerous, mile for mile, than cars

    5. Re:Having a private pilots license by jratcliffe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Granted, it's probably not going to be the most gentile landing

      So I should look to land on a nice cushy Rabbi?

  7. Re:So, how much does it cost? by Subgenius · · Score: 4, Informative

    ROUGH numbers (and yes, I know GPH not MPG).

    Typical Cessna 172 flown by a decent pilot, not a speed-demon, will see a burn of about 10-12 gallons per hour in calm skies. 100LL (avgas) is running here at Montgomery Field in San Diego (Gibbs FBO) $6.19/gallon. Assume a full 56-gallon fill ($346), you are are looking at 5-hours runtime @ 105kts, or about 500 miles before refueling.

    Not the cheapest way to get there, your plane/burnrate/mileage WILL vary.

    --
    Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
  8. Re:FAA/TSA Crackdown in 3...2... by Overzeetop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TSA doesn't give a shit. Go charter a private jet and you can skip all that silliness and they won't care. They want us to feel safe, not be safe.

    FAA on the other hand will not be amused.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  9. My opinion as a pilot by RockyMountain · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have lost four of my friends to airplane accidents. Two were pilots -- in one case the it clearly his own fault, and in the other it was extremely bad piece of luck. The other two deaths were the direct result of naively trusting the wrong pilot.

    I see two flavors of comment so far. Non-pilots saying they think the idea is scary, and pilots saying "aw, pshaw, I am well trained, what is the problem?". Well, I am a pilot myself (commercial pilot and certified flight instructor), yet I strongly agree with the "that's scary" crowd. I've flown many thousands of hours in all sorts of locales, weather, and equipment. I've handled numerous emergencies, with never a scratch. I've taught hundreds of other pilots to fly. But, in all that time, by far the scariest moments I have ever had in the air were occasions where I made the mistake of riding as a passenger with the wrong choice of pilot!

    Those who place their faith in the FAA's training standards, simply fail to understand that the ratings indicate compliance with the bare legal minima -- essentially they mean nearly nothing.

    Nor does safety correlate with pilot rating. I've met some mere student pilots that I'd sooner trust with my life than many commercial pilots. The variation from one individual pilot to the next, regardless of qualifications, by far exceeds the variations from one rating to another. That variation comes from preparedness, attitude experience and common sense. Bottom line, with the exception of airlines (where I have no choice!) I will NEVER ride with a pilot whose experience, skills, and attitude I do not personally know first hand. And, I'd never advise friends or loved ones to ride with "just any old pilot".

    1. Re:My opinion as a pilot by joe_frisch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Private flying is dangerous.
      NTSB statistics (2012 is what I have).

      General avaiation (small planes and some business flights): 6.8 accidents, 1.24 fatalities / 100,000 hours
      Commercial aviation. 0.155 accidents, 0 fatalities/ 100,000 hours.
      There really is no comparison in the safety record.

      For cars I see 1.1 deaths / 100M passenger miles. If we assume a 30mph average speed, that is something like .03 fatalities / 100,000 hours.

      You can play with the statistics all sorts of (perfectly valid) ways, but by almost any reasonable analysis, general aviation is substantially more dangerous that either commercial or driving.

      These and other safety statistics at NTSB.

  10. An FAA Interpretation by EmagGeek · · Score: 4, Informative

    Found this online:

    http://www.faa.gov/about/offic...