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New Service Lets You Hitch a Ride With Private Planes For Cost of Tank of Gas
v3rgEz (125380) writes "A new service, Airpooler, matches pilots with passengers looking to head the same way. Since it's not an officially licensed charter service, prices are limited to roughly the passengers' share of the gas, giving pilots a way to share the expense of enjoying the open blue and flyers a taste of their personal pilot."
I live near a municipal airport and based on the landings I've seen I'm not sure I would entrust my life to a private pilot certified on only a puddle jumper.
That's better than into the ocean
rewriting history since 2109
I don't think I want to get into an unknown plane flown by an unknown pilot who needs to share the fuel bill.
There are some severe legal questions surrounding this service. In a nutshell, the FAA considers anyone who advertises at all ("Holding out" as a provider in their terminology) as a charter service. The fact that it's limited to the passenger's share of the costs is not relevant as far as the FAA is concerned -- you need a valid commercial pilot's license and a 121 license to do this legally in the opinion of many.
My memory is that a small plane costs about twice as much ($) in fuel for the same point-to-point distance.
... I'm a pilot, and I wouldn't fly as a pax with most of the other pilots I know, especially not under circumstances they are unfamiliar with - like loading down the plane with people and luggage close to gross weight and doing a cross country with it.
Also, this is in some pretty serious gray area. A pilot may not "hold out" for passengers to share fuel on a trip he/she is planning to take. Any kind of "if someone else is going, I'm not going" makes it a Part 121 charter. If pilots start deciding not to go if they don't get a full plane, or if they wait around for an hour for the person who is late, I think they might find themselves violated.
Which is still minuscule when compared to the chances of dying in an auto accident.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
We tried to do something similar in 1987 -- reservation system for the charter airline industry to fill the "dead" legs (return flights). Prototyped on Tandy 6000 (8MHz 68K, 1M RAM) and PCs with IBM EGA cards (yes, EGA, not VGA).
Never did get it off the ground....
My understanding is that this is treading on very dangerous grounds with respect to FAA guidelines.
A "share" of the cost includes all expenses of the flight. Rental, fuel, etc. The pilot and passenger must each pay half of total expenses.
The passenger can have no influence on the destination. If the pilot is flying from A to B and the passenger tags along, OK. But if the pilot just wants hours and goes to B because the passenger needs to go there then I think there is an FAA regulations problem and the FAA will consider the flight commercial.
That said I am not a lawyer nor a FAA guidelines expert. All I know is what my instructor told me many years ago in ground school. "The person showing you their FAA ID is never ever there to help you. Never hand your license to the FAA official to help them read / inspect it, that can be considered surrendering your license if the FAA official wishes to interpret the act as such. Keep the license in your hand and move it closer to their face if they are having a hard time reading it, pull it away if they reach for it. If they ask for it tell them you will be handing it to your attorney and they can speak with him/her."
Cars are forgiving, the sky is NOT. If as many people flew small planes as people drive it would not be as safe in terms of fatalities. It is true when you compare apples to oranges driving is more dangerous; but if you want to even get close to a fair comparison you would compare jets to buses and you'd compare fatalities and injuries separately... since car accidents are far less likely to result in fatalities.
The FAA has strong rules about flying others around and the FAA never changes the regulations, they only add, never remove. The exchange of money at all for any connected reason is going to cause trouble.
Besides, if you thought the taxi lobby was a problem for ride sharing; you'd never even dare to mess with the airline industrial complex (which is so heavily subsidized, it is more of a scam than a market.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
FAA/TSA Crackdown in 3...2...Cavity Search.
We can't have people moving about freely. This is AMERICA.
Figure a 4-seat Bonanza or Cirrus costs $200/hour to operate and flies at ~200mph. A Cessna 172 is considerably less, maybe $120/hour, flies at maybe 130mph, but can't carry as much, and has much more limited weather capability. (vague 1/2 of the total cost is fuel)
These are very rough costs, depends on how you count fixed costs, how fast you fly, etc etc.
Small aircraft are NOT a cost efficient way to get around in most cases.
ROUGH numbers (and yes, I know GPH not MPG).
Typical Cessna 172 flown by a decent pilot, not a speed-demon, will see a burn of about 10-12 gallons per hour in calm skies. 100LL (avgas) is running here at Montgomery Field in San Diego (Gibbs FBO) $6.19/gallon. Assume a full 56-gallon fill ($346), you are are looking at 5-hours runtime @ 105kts, or about 500 miles before refueling.
Not the cheapest way to get there, your plane/burnrate/mileage WILL vary.
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
You've obviously never been 'ramp checked'
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
I thought it was "grass" like as in pot. Maybe in French airports, foie gras is a currency you can use to pay for transport. Or do you mean "generally recognized as safe?" Because I'd take safety over... uh... ass or gas.
For $200 / hour a proper commercial flight will be much less expensive.
If by minuscule, you mean that general aviation has 15 times as many fatalities per mile, or five times as many fatalities per passenger mile than auto travel...
Flight from Phoenix to Durango vs Driving? 2 hours in a small plane vs 7 hours driving. 1 Person, ~$200 commercial. Add 2-3 people, in that small plane, no difference in gas burned, far cheaper than commercial without the bullshit of 8 hours of check in / gate time. If you value your time, small plane far faster and most likely cheaper too, if more than 1 person going, depending on distance. Anything long distance, faster plane necessary than a 182.
When are the commercial airlines going to protest this service, like the cab industry protested Lyft and Uber?
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Those who forget the past are doomed
> passengers share of gas
passenger's* share of gas
passengers = more than one passenger
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
then the pilot never touches the money and you are a friend/passenger.
I have lost four of my friends to airplane accidents. Two were pilots -- in one case the it clearly his own fault, and in the other it was extremely bad piece of luck. The other two deaths were the direct result of naively trusting the wrong pilot.
I see two flavors of comment so far. Non-pilots saying they think the idea is scary, and pilots saying "aw, pshaw, I am well trained, what is the problem?". Well, I am a pilot myself (commercial pilot and certified flight instructor), yet I strongly agree with the "that's scary" crowd. I've flown many thousands of hours in all sorts of locales, weather, and equipment. I've handled numerous emergencies, with never a scratch. I've taught hundreds of other pilots to fly. But, in all that time, by far the scariest moments I have ever had in the air were occasions where I made the mistake of riding as a passenger with the wrong choice of pilot!
Those who place their faith in the FAA's training standards, simply fail to understand that the ratings indicate compliance with the bare legal minima -- essentially they mean nearly nothing.
Nor does safety correlate with pilot rating. I've met some mere student pilots that I'd sooner trust with my life than many commercial pilots. The variation from one individual pilot to the next, regardless of qualifications, by far exceeds the variations from one rating to another. That variation comes from preparedness, attitude experience and common sense. Bottom line, with the exception of airlines (where I have no choice!) I will NEVER ride with a pilot whose experience, skills, and attitude I do not personally know first hand. And, I'd never advise friends or loved ones to ride with "just any old pilot".
Found this online:
http://www.faa.gov/about/offic...
How much to rent a car in Durango or Phoenix? Because they sure as heck are not going to have public transportation worth anything.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
I had a friend, years and years ago, would go out to an airfield and "hitch a ride" on a private 'plane going to either somewhere he wanted to go, or (sometimes) to just anywhere the pilot was going that sounded interesting. He would have been about 19 years old then, like me. I was too nervous to try it on my own, and it wasn't the sort of thing that two guys could do in a small 'plane, so I never did it.
Doh.
Nope. I know people love to quote that, but all it seems to do is indicate someone can't do statistics.
That number comes form just comparing number of deaths.
When you look at comparing miles moved, number of people operating the vehicles, I don't think it's safer.
Aircariers 1.9 deaths per 100 million planes, auto 1.3 deaths per 100 million cars.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"You gotta be insane to fly in small private planes"
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I am a commercial pilot. This scheme will fail because the FAA really really does not want anything like this going on. Flying people as paying passengers falls under part 135 or part 121 of the regulations. People have been trying there "134.5" scams for decades now and getting busted for decades as well.
I haven't made it to my private pilot's license yet, so I may very well be wrong. Could somebody confirm or deny this for me, please?
The chance of dying with a commercial airline flight is miniscule. The mortality statistics for private pilots are about on par with motorcycling; that's a huge difference.
It varies. Between major airports, commercial will usually win in speed and cost. There are some trips that are faster and /or cheaper in a small plane than by other means, but in my experience (20 years of private flying), it isn't really all that common. I fly myself because I enjoy it, and I like the flexibility, but I can rarely justify it as an efficient means of transportation.
Avgas or grass?
General Aviation is dying, unless something changes it will dissappear completely. This may assist in reversing the trend, much as the commercial lobby may not like it. Unfortunately FAA has nannied the GA field into the ground, planes are too expensive to certify so the field is dominated by expensive dinsaurs, the average ages of GA planes is so old that if it were alive it would have flaps of loose skin and wrinkes.
In short this is about user choice, be clear about the risks, let people provide reviews of the pilots skills and get on with it.
I don't really think that the 15% margin is justified, 1% should cover costs here and another 4% for lobby expenses, the rest is greed.
As far as the commercial pilots saying this will fail,
1 You have a professional bias, get over it
2 FAA is under pressure to ensure that GA doesn't fail
3 If this is demonstrably "non-commercial" it should succeed
Phoenix AZ and Durango CO both have a plethora of car rental options and a level of public transport that still comes out well ahead of the 5 hours saved.
Even "lowly" Durango has Avis, Herz, Budget, National and Enterprise at their airport - although I suspect at least 2 of those are DBA one of the others under a shared banner.
Wish I had mod points.
If posting to FB can be 'holding out' I imagine that using an app to publish publicly puts this in the illegal territory.
Avgas is about $6 a gallon so unless you were going somewhere close enough to drive anyway, it would not likely be cheap. Further, a real airline ticket is still historically VERY cheap (just aggravating to use sometimes), and a great deal more safe compared to civil accident rates.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
As far as the commercial pilots saying this will fail, 1 You have a professional bias, get over it 2 FAA is under pressure to ensure that GA doesn't fail 3 If this is demonstrably "non-commercial" it should succeed
Citation needed...
As for statement number 1, don't confuse industrial expertise for "professional bias". After 20 years in the field I'd say it will draw unwanted attention from the FAA. I'd also say it's not economically feasible with Avgas at $6 a gallon.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
1) The vast, overwhelming majority of commercial pilots fly in the GA industry.
2) The FAA is under immense pressure from the major airlines to get rid of GA entirely
3) This is demonstrably commercial
In Canada the rules are pretty much iron clad. You can't accept a piece of gum for so much as saying the word, "Airplane". This might be an exaggeration but not by much. If I have a private plane and am flying it around the rules are about what you would expect or maybe even less. But once you cross that magical threshold of taking money for flying all kinds of insurance, regulations, plane requirements, and changes in maintenance requirements.
While I am speaking about Canada, I suspect that the rules for most western countries aren't going to be that different. Basically you will have trouble finding a more regulated industry than the aviation industry, and where these regulations might have gaps the insurance companies will be standing right there.
These guys might be on a sounder footing if they were to start selling a DIY brain surgery kits.
as private airports / small airports / the private gates don't have as much security and some can use this get on to a plane and take control.
As a private pilot for many years I can tell you this will be shut down so fast by the Federal Aviation Administration your head may spin. Don't make any plans!
Since I started skydiving and hanging out at the grill down at the airport, I've been surprised at how approachable private aviation is. If I wanted another 5 digit hobby, I could wander in to the office at the local airport and start pilot lessons immediately. As it stands,a jump ticket only sets me back about $25. The trip's only one way, but if you're sitting next to the door in the summer time, it's a hell of a view -- they open it at 2000 feet to cool the plane off and close it again at 8000 feet when it starts getting kind of chilly. I was the first out the door for night jumps last July and looking out the open door of the plane on the ride to altitude was one of the more amazing things I've ever got to do in my life.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Federal (FAA) banning of this service for "safety" reasons in 3....2.........1.................
but pointing that out makes you a "crazy" "truther"
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
(not arguing with you - backing your play. I've gotten stuck in automobiles before, never once in a small airplane)
Oh, wait - that's how you land a small airplane. Dopey me - I thought having engine failure would change that. Guess not.
That is all.
How about a link to the fucking site instead of this shitty betaboston website.
https://airpooler.com/
Thanks for the link!
As a commercial pilot for many years I can tell you day 1 of "how to be a commercial pilot" class was why this scheme is totally illegal and that is before you hurt someone. Do so much as shut the door on someone's hand and lawyers will rip you so many new assholes you will be farting in 5 part harmony!
Not much of the need, the FAA will smash this ignorance fairly quickly.
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No FAA problems with this at all as long as the accounting is good. Any [private] pilot can share expenses with anyone, with each person paying the same percentage of the expenses (typically only gas cost, not indirect operating costs). Generally, stats say that private flying is about equal in risk to motorcycle riding. And the bottom line is, if you want to fly then use this, otherwise, drive a car...